Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 13/8

Adamcp898

bullvine wrote: »

You only have to look at the 2011 CL final, what a disaster that match was.

Half the problem of the Champion's League campaign was the ignorance of how our midfield was just never going to be good enough to beat Europe's best.

If that had been addressed in the Summer or the 3/4 years previous then we could well have won an extra 1 or 2 Champion's Leagues during that period.

bangkok

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So what if they worked on tactics?

No one is saying Fergie ignored tactics - we are saying it wasn't his strong suit. He had other attributes that made up for not being one of the best tactical manager around.

just as a matter of interest who would you say are/were 3 managers was better tactically aware than fergie?

ericzeking

The media seem to be jumping all over the LVG vs Commercial committments story i.e. the first bit of negative press for the new management....is this a backlash for being frozen out of the transfer activity?

LVG vs the Meeedja is gonna a fair ould joust

bullvine

Of course they were playing a great side that night but I don't recall any difference in the way United had been setup that night to the way they had played in the title run in of that current season. This was the same Barca that had been tactically out done by Inter in 2010 and Chelsea in 2012.

Fergie had talked in the weeks prior to the final that he had a way to play against them and wouldnt make the same mistakes as 2009, from watching the 2011 final I don't recall seeing any evidence of learning from previous mistakes.

bangkok

bullvine wrote: »

Of course they were playing a great side that night but I don't recall any difference in the way United had been setup that night to the way they had played in the title run in of that current season. This was the same Barca that had been tactically out done by Inter in 2010 and Chelsea in 2012.

Fergie had talked in the weeks prior to the final that he had a way to play against them and wouldnt make the same mistakes as 2009, from watching the 2011 final I don't recall seeing any evidence of learning from previous mistakes.

I recall those games as 11 men behind the ball, defending for their lives, not exactly a tactical masterclass!!

sure didn't big sam do the same to Chelsea last season

hufpc8w3adnk65

Order number : MTD-***********
Order Date: 24/07/2014 00:58:17
Status: Shipped


Thats the job mine are on the way, €60 quid for both jerseys great value!

v3ttel

gosplan wrote: »

As someone pointed out, his record isn't that great.

7 league titles.

At least 1 league title in every country he has managed.

At least one domestic cup at every club (bar AZ).

Let's ignore his Champions League title and his third place in the World Cup with a fairly ordinary Dutch squad.

If that record isn't "that great", I don't know what is. Of course it hasn't always ended well for him in every job. As you specifically mentioned Mourniho and Pellegrini, you can say the same about them. Mourinho (see Real Madrid, Chelsea) and Pellegrini (Real Madrid, and before last season, he hadn't won a trophy for 11 years).

We have a genuinely world class manager, who has a record that outstrips most, and is comparable to the absolute best. Other teams can say the same. It is exciting, even more so after what we had to endure with David Moyes.

There is never a guarantee how it will go during his tenure, or how it will end, but he will definitely leave the team in better shape than when he has taken over.

Backstreet Moyes

bullvine wrote: »

Of course they were playing a great side that night but I don't recall any difference in the way United had been setup that night to the way they had played in the title run in of that current season. This was the same Barca that had been tactically out done by Inter in 2010 and Chelsea in 2012.

Fergie had talked in the weeks prior to the final that he had a way to play against them and wouldnt make the same mistakes as 2009, from watching the 2011 final I don't recall seeing any evidence of learning from previous mistakes.

The mistake Fergie made from 2009 to 2011 was his failure to sign midfielders. That was his biggest mistake having Carrick against 3 of the best midfielders of all time.

bullvine

Nuts102 wrote: »

The mistake Fergie made from 2009 to 2011 was his failure to sign midfielders. That was his biggest mistake having Carrick against 3 of the best midfielders of all time.

Totally!

ericzeking

bangkok wrote: »

I recall those games as 11 men behind the ball, defending for their lives, not exactly a tactical masterclass!!

sure didn't big sam do the same to Chelsea last season

A tactical masterclass is exactly what it was. FFS

bullvine

bangkok wrote: »

I recall those games as 11 men behind the ball, defending for their lives, not exactly a tactical masterclass!!

sure didn't big sam do the same to Chelsea last season

Big Sam didnt win though. The other two got results and ended up getting to the final which they won.

My jersey just arrived!!

I paid with paypal and didn't even get a dispatch email :P

Thanks Mikey

Rubber_Soul

MrMac84 wrote: »

Order number : MTD-***********
Order Date: 24/07/2014 00:58:17
Status: Shipped


Thats the job mine are on the way, €60 quid for both jerseys great value!

Delivery from DHL this morning. Fair play to Utd for honouring it.

Backstreet Moyes

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So what if they worked on tactics?

No one is saying Fergie ignored tactics - we are saying it wasn't his strong suit. He had other attributes that made up for not being one of the best tactical manager around.

Name 5-10 better tactical managers than Fergie. Being a great motivator and having a will to win wont' bring you 20+ years of success unless being a great tactician.

Mitch Connor

all you fukers with your cheap jerseys...

We were going to sign Vidal, and had Di Maria ready to put pen to paper but United have now had to divert funds from those transfers to cover the shortfall in the jersey profits.

It is YOUR FAULT we are going to have Fellaini and Anderson playing CM for us this season. Hope you are happy with you choice.

And don't think for a moment that what I have written is an exaggerated lie as a result of being bitter than I missed out on your dirty little deal... Cause that would be wrong, right. yeah.

bangkok

Nuts102 wrote: »

Name 5-10 better tactical managers than Fergie. Being a great motivator and having a will to win wont' bring you 20+ years of success unless being a great tactician.

exactly, he was one if not the best of all time

Mitch Connor

Nuts102 wrote: »

Name 5-10 better tactical managers than Fergie. Being a great motivator and having a will to win wont' bring you 20+ years of success unless being a great tactician.

will have to have a think about it - I maintain that tactical acumen was not fergies strong point - but I've not said he was rubbish with tactics. My point is, basically, he wasn't the best tactical genius around - and that it is quite possible (and true, imo) that LVG is tactically better than Fergie - that doesn't mean he will (or would have) get better results with United than Fergie - as tactics are just a part of what makes a manager or team great.

You can be tactically astute, but not have the man management skills to get your thoughts and plans across properly or implemented exactly as you want/need.

Given that Fergie left quite a lot of the training ground stuff to Carlos Q, McLaren and latterly Phelan/Rene, I would sturggle to understand how he would have imparted his tactical genius without actually spending much time on the training ground. IMO, Fergie recognised he was slipping behind tactically and employed people (mainly Carlos Q and Rene) who would aid him tactically and make up for any shortfalls he had himself.

For tactical acumen, I would look at getting results vs sides demonstrably better than your own, and showing an ability to switch up your tactics and formations based on form and requirements. Fergie basically played the same brand of football (either 442 or 451) for the vast majority of his time at United - and it took him years to adapt to the different approach european football required.

hufpc8w3adnk65

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My jersey just arrived!!

I paid with paypal and didn't even get a dispatch email :P

Thanks Mikey

Express shipping or normal?

hufpc8w3adnk65

StarshipPooper wrote: »

Delivery from DHL this morning. Fair play to Utd for honouring it.

Express or normal?

Spazdarn

Mitch Connor wrote: »

will have to have a think about it - I maintain that tactical acumen was not fergies strong point - but I've not said he was rubbish with tactics. My point is, basically, he wasn't the best tactical genius around - and that it is quite possible (and true, imo) that LVG is tactically better than Fergie - that doesn't mean he will (or would have) get better results with United than Fergie - as tactics are just a part of what makes a manager or team great.

You can be tactically astute, but not have the man management skills to get your thoughts and plans across properly or implemented exactly as you want/need.

Given that Fergie left quite a lot of the training ground stuff to Carlos Q, McLaren and latterly Phelan/Rene, I would sturggle to understand how he would have imparted his tactical genius without actually spending much time on the training ground. IMO, Fergie recognised he was slipping behind tactically and employed people (mainly Carlos Q and Rene) who would aid him tactically and make up for any shortfalls he had himself.

For tactical acumen, I would look at getting results vs sides demonstrably better than your own, and showing an ability to switch up your tactics and formations based on form and requirements. Fergie basically played the same brand of football (either 442 or 451) for the vast majority of his time at United - and it took him years to adapt to the different approach european football required.

I feel people are melding tactics and man management... I feel tactically Fergie was very good but his ability to get the best out of players at the right moments is what truly made him great.

Tactically Mourinho had the better of him on a fairly regular basis... though I suppose there's no shame in that.

NeVeR

I'm sick I didn't see the wrong price .. I would have snapped some up.

bangkok

Mitch Connor wrote: »

will have to have a think about it - I maintain that tactical acumen was not fergies strong point - but I've not said he was rubbish with tactics. My point is, basically, he wasn't the best tactical genius around - and that it is quite possible (and true, imo) that LVG is tactically better than Fergie - that doesn't mean he will (or would have) get better results with United than Fergie - as tactics are just a part of what makes a manager or team great.

You can be tactically astute, but not have the man management skills to get your thoughts and plans across properly or implemented exactly as you want/need.

Given that Fergie left quite a lot of the training ground stuff to Carlos Q, McLaren and latterly Phelan/Rene, I would sturggle to understand how he would have imparted his tactical genius without actually spending much time on the training ground. IMO, Fergie recognised he was slipping behind tactically and employed people (mainly Carlos Q and Rene) who would aid him tactically and make up for any shortfalls he had himself.

For tactical acumen, I would look at getting results vs sides demonstrably better than your own, and showing an ability to switch up your tactics and formations based on form and requirements. Fergie basically played the same brand of football (either 442 or 451) for the vast majority of his time at United - and it took him years to adapt to the different approach european football required.

he was on the training ground every day without fail, but he didn't actually do the sessions, observed them. he discussed before training with his assistants what tactics they needed to work on and after training it was fergie who did most of the tactical stuff on the whiteboards.

Backstreet Moyes

NeVeR wrote: »

I'm sick I didn't see the wrong price .. I would have snapped some up.

Was planning on buying my first jersey in years i just can't now after missing out on the bargain.

Although if Vidal signs i will be straight to the shop for a Vidal jersey.

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

he was on the training ground every day without fail, but he didn't actually do the sessions, observed them. he discussed before training with his assistants what tactics they needed to work on and after training it was fergie who did most of the tactical stuff on the whiteboards.

How do you know? seem so sure.

Were you there?

bullvine

The team from the 90's had very little tactics whatsoever, it just had the best players and an incredible will to win, the football played was outstanding but simple, get the ball wide, cross it to the forwards or the midfielder who had burst forward. The 99 team was essentially the same as the 94 team with just better footballers.

Simplicity!

Rubber_Soul

MrMac84 wrote: »

Express or normal?

Express.

hufpc8w3adnk65

StarshipPooper wrote: »

Express.

Boooo I went with normal should have ticked express! Disgusted now! Any way too track standard dhl ?

newballsplease

I know its been said but, the sponsor on the jersey is terrible.

Trigger

StarshipPooper wrote: »

Express.

Im the same, though i'm stuck in work so waiting on a text to notify me that it has arrive, says its with the courier on DHL site.

DHL are going to have a very busy day today

Backstreet Moyes

Mitch Connor wrote: »

- and it took him years to adapt to the different approach european football required.

Did the rule for English clubs having a limit on foreign players make English clubs have a big disadvantage in Europe for a long time.

Just looked at the last 7 years in which Barca would have been classed as one the best side of all time.

United 3 Champions League finals winning 1 with our best midfielder a limited English squad player.

Barca 2 Champions League finals and 2 wins.

Madrid 1 Champions league final and 1 win.

Bayern 3 finals and 1 win.

Comparing United's squad to the other big sides in Europe the past few years he was punching well above his weight in Europe.

Trigger

MrMac84 wrote: »

Boooo I went with normal should have ticked express! Disgusted now! Any way too track standard dhl ?

for 2 Euro extra i was all over it ha.

My OH works for a company that use DHL and she was saying yesterday they only do tracking on the express service.

hufpc8w3adnk65

astradave wrote: »

for 2 Euro extra i was all over it ha.

My OH works for a company that use DHL and she was saying yesterday they only do tracking on the express service.

I got so hyper when I realised how cheap the 2 shirts were I just clicked order! I was rushing too try as lads said that some orders were going threw and others weren't, I'm sickened now,




But not as sickened as I would be if I didn't order at all ha ha!!

rockal

After reading the last few pages, how about we change the title of thread to
Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours/Bargain Alerts/Postage & delivery Thread

Mitch Connor

Nuts102 wrote: »

Did the rule for English clubs having a limit on foreign players make English clubs have a big disadvantage in Europe for a long time.

Just looked at the last 7 years in which Barca would have been classed as one the best side of all time.

United 3 Champions League finals winning 1 with our best midfielder a limited English squad player.

Barca 2 Champions League finals and 2 wins.

Madrid 1 Champions league final and 1 win.

Bayern 3 finals and 1 win.

Comparing United's squad to the other big sides in Europe the past few years he was punching well above his weight in Europe.

Look at our actual CL runs - the runs to the finals were kind to us, espcially in 11 - Chelsea and Shalke in quaters and Semi. Was it Porto and Arsenal in 09? Given the ties we played, we got to where we should, imo - but were beaten in each run when we should have been.

Bar an amazing defensive performance vs Barca in both legs 08, I don't think there were many instances where you could say United put on a tactical masterclass and blew an opponent away that should have proven much stronger opposition.

Again, I'm not saying Fergie was rubbish tactically, I just don't think he was an innovative genius. I'm sure we can all point at many times over recent seasons where we have been exposed tactically and not seen the required reaction from Fergie/United to counter the problem.

tinofapples

Vidal won't join pool , will he ? I'll be sick if lose out to them

Adamcp898

tinofapples wrote: »

Vidal won't join pool , will he ? I'll be sick if lose out to them

Nah, they're spending all their money on Reus and Hummels, BRod has a great eye for hidden gems.

MagicIRL

Don't forget Pogba! lump on boys, Liverpool doin' the treble this year.

If Vidal goes anywhere it's to United. United have the money, the power and the team to attract the player. We'll just have to wait and see.

bmcc10

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Nah, they're spending all their money on Reus and Hummels, BRod has a great eye for hidden gems.

Not to forget Varane who Carragher recently hailed as one to watch :rolleyes:

bullvine

Was it the Roma game in 08 when Ronaldo got the bullet header, I think as I recall Fergie used a completely different style that night, caught a lot of people off with it!

bangkok

bullvine wrote: »

Was it the Roma game in 08 when Ronaldo got the bullet header, I think as I recall Fergie used a completely different style that night, caught a lot of people off with it!

yea unreal

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq1ydb_cristiano-ronaldo-goal-vs-roma-01-04-2008_sport

bmcc10

bullvine wrote: »

Was it the Roma game in 08 when Ronaldo got the bullet header, I think as I recall Fergie used a completely different style that night, caught a lot of people off with it!

Ye he came into the box like a steam train, Last time i remember Fergie trying anything different was against Newcastle he played with a diamond midfield, If i remember correctly we battered them that day.

Lord TSC

Barcelona apparently eyeing up Vermaelen now....

Will I Amnt

Lord TSC wrote: »

Barcelona apparently eyeing up Vermaelen now....

Suarez biting cyclists now :eek:

Rubber_Soul

newballsplease wrote: »

I know its been said but, the sponsor on the jersey is terrible.

It feels like a cheap iron-on decal.

bucketybuck

bullvine wrote: »

The team from the 90's had very little tactics whatsoever, it just had the best players and an incredible will to win, the football played was outstanding but simple, get the ball wide, cross it to the forwards or the midfielder who had burst forward. The 99 team was essentially the same as the 94 team with just better footballers.

Simplicity!

I think that goes too far the other way.

Having the best team does often negate the need for fancy tactics but the team still needed to be set up to its strengths. It just so happened that the teams strengths encouraged a simple set up wherein those excellent players were allowed to just do their thing. Imagine imposing a Carrick style defensive role on a player like Roy Keane, it just wouldn't be the right choice.

Ferguson could have displayed greater tactical acumen with that team if he had to, that he didn't have to is a good thing, not a criticism of him.

I do agree with the general point though, while Ferguson was no slouch tactically it wasn't his core strength or his greatest asset. This is not a particularly new argument, it was said many times over his career. There is a reason Brian Kidd, Steve McClaren and Carlos Quieroz were so valued in their times at the club.

rockal

Javier Hernandez could be on his way to Spanish champions Atletico Madrid, if reports in Mexico are to be believed.
http://www.ftbpro.com/posts/aiden.cusick/1117649/manchester-united-s-javier-hernandez-reportedly-nears-atletico-madrid-switch

markcahill1985

rockal wrote: »

Javier Hernandez could be on his way to Spanish champions Atletico Madrid, if reports in Mexico are to be believed.
http://www.ftbpro.com/posts/aiden.cusick/1117649/manchester-united-s-javier-hernandez-reportedly-nears-atletico-madrid-switch

Would hate to see him go but if I was him I would be off, not getting picked for Mexico anymore and he looks totally bereft of confidence. Cracking player.

Donnielighto

Mitch Connor wrote: »

all you fukers with your cheap jerseys...

We were going to sign Vidal, and had Di Maria ready to put pen to paper but United have now had to divert funds from those transfers to cover the shortfall in the jersey profits.

It is YOUR FAULT we are going to have Fellaini and Anderson playing CM for us this season. Hope you are happy with you choice.

And don't think for a moment that what I have written is an exaggerated lie as a result of being bitter than I missed out on your dirty little deal... Cause that would be wrong, right. yeah.

I'll do ya a deal on a lovely Kagamata pair of jerseys

Crimson King

I believe Javier still has 2 years left on his contract so he would demand a decent fee.

Would love to see how he gets on with LVG and a midfielder like Herrera who likes to play balls through the middle for runners. However he deserves a chance to shine so if he wants to leave then so be it, he owes the club nowt.

I would like to think LVG will know more about his squad after the Roma game. Don't expect any movement until after the weekend tbh.

wadacrack

http://www.punditarena.com/football/english-football/ddalton/manchester-united-play-new-system-louis-van-gaal/

Good article on how we are likely to play/line out this season. Hernandez I think will leave. With us playing 3 at the back. We need a left footed CB so the link to Vermaelen makes a lot of sense