Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 13/8

bangkok

Larry Wildman wrote: »

I'd question whether he'd have won as many individual awards or achieved as much generally had he looked more like Luke Chadwick.

And no, I'm not trolling or taking the p..s.

A good player but not a great player to coin a phrase.

To put it another way, I wouldn't have him anywhere near an all time United greats top 10.

So would bobby Charlton make your top 10 or is he not good looking enough?

Cookiemunster

Just saw this from Jamie Jackson.

Nick Powell is due to join the United squad on their summer tour of the US over the next 72 hours after recovering from a minor injury.

However, James Wilson, who scored twice on his debut in Ryan Giggs’ last appearance for United in the 3-1 win over Hull City, has a finger injury and so will not be able to take any part in the tour.

Kerrydude1981

Mr_Red wrote: »

Does MUTV show every United game for the season?

Live Radio commentary only,they then show the full game usually the day after its been played.

bangkok

Larry Wildman wrote: »

I wouldn't say that there's many who've seen more of Beckham playing.

You're deploying a Straw Man Argument of the worst kind.

I never claimed that Beckham wasn't a seriously good player. I stated that his profile was not commensurate with his ability.

Fans and the media have been blinded by the guy's profile. He was not as good a player as (say) Roy Keane, Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs, Bryan Robson, Ronaldo, Peter Schmeichel, Wayne Rooney, Ruud Van Nistelrooy and Jaap Stam to name but a few.

And if he looked like Luke Chadwick, I'd be surprised if any of those spells in LA, Milan, Paris or maybe even Madrid would ever have happened.

Yea ronaldinho had a bad time with his looks, psg, barcelona......

Adamocovic

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Fans and the media have been blinded by the guy's profile. He was not as good a player as (say) Roy Keane, Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs, Bryan Robson, Ronaldo, Peter Schmeichel, Wayne Rooney, Ruud Van Nistelrooy and Jaap Stam to name but a few.

Ha none of us are saying he's the best player ever. Were saying he was a brilliant player who we'd consider world class. All the above would be considered world class too. And no doubt most would believe Beckham to be in with that group. I know it's just opinions as I said before but none of us have compared him to anyone else, were just saying we think he was outstanding player in his prime.

Adamocovic

Copper_pipe wrote: »

Hilarious is one word for him alright. Hes saying hes in Ireland people questioned the Meteor on the top left of this pic

More credible source than the Star anyway!

Larry Wildman

bangkok wrote: »

So would bobby Charlton make your top 10 or is he not good looking enough?

Bobby Charlton is the greatest United player in history in my view.

Your post is nonsensical to be honest.

Beckham was an excellent player. However, he was not a truly great player. Anyone claiming that he was is just buying into the hype.

Adamocovic

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Bobby Charlton is the greatest United player in history in my view.

Your post is nonsensical to be honest.

Beckham was an excellent player. However, he was not a truly great player. Anyone claiming that he was is just buying into the hype.

Ha Im sorry but I don't get how you can say he was an excellent player but not a great player. Excellent is a synonym for great.

Donnielighto

Larry Wildman wrote: »

As an example, he came second in the 1999 FIFA World Player of the Year. That was ludicrous.

Stop, he was brilliant that year. Have came second another year to Figo.

TBH I think you just dont like the dude.

Hulk Hands

Schwiiing wrote: »

Beckham scored some beauties for us down the years. 5.29 being my personal favourite.

He had a ridicilous goal scoring record for someone you could never call a forward.

Personal favourite from that is 5:13. Not his best free kick but some character in his first PL game after the 98 World Cup, with the country baying for his blood. Last minute free kick awarded with United 2-1 down, and never any question he was going to take it

homerjay2005

Just read the woodward interview, i dont think its very wise to be telling every1 how rich we are, when we are trying to sign players, he really doesnt need to be saying this, signing players is the way to show our ambition and intent.

Bit surprised to see him say we are "considering a few things" when most rival clubs have most of their spending done and the season is only 3 weeks away.

We shud have most of our business pretty much wrapped up by now as normally was the case with us.

bangkok

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Bobby Charlton is the greatest United player in history in my view.

Your post is nonsensical to be honest.

Beckham was an excellent player. However, he was not a truly great player. Anyone claiming that he was is just buying into the hype.

You started off your whole argument saying he was the most overrated player of all time and now you are saying he was an excellent player?

Goodnight

Donnielighto

homerjay2005 wrote: »

The vermaelen deal should be wrapped up in the next week or so, assuming Arsenal dont delay it.

That wud be £40m spent on two defenders and i dont think its incorrect to say that overall our defence is in a worse position now than it was 12 months ago.

Where's your proof etc etc :p

Seriously though, what do you make the transfer (by itself not in the context of the other 2 leaving)? I think he could be a decent signing if the price isnt too high, he has the ability to be a starter and I think leadership wise it's a good move. All dependent on price.

Larry Wildman

bangkok wrote: »

Yea ronaldinho had a bad time with his looks, psg, barcelona......

What in God's name are you talking about?

I'll try and simplify it for you.

From purely a footballing perspective, Ronaldo and David Beckham should not be mentioned in the same breath. Yet they are. Why? Marketing and image.

If Beckham looked like Luke Chadwick, he would not have people touting him as an all time great.

On the other hand, if Ronaldo looked like Quasimodo he'd still be touted as an all time great.

Looks aren't relevant if you're actually that good, but in Beckham's case they have elevated him in people's consciousness to the upper echelons from a tier below where he belongs.

2nd in the '99 World Player was an abomination and symptomatic of exactly what I'm talking about.

Donnielighto

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Just read the woodward interview, i dont think its very wise to be telling every1 how rich we are, when we are trying to sign players, he really doesnt need to be saying this, signing players is the way to show our ambition and intent.

Bit surprised to see him say we are "considering a few things" when most rival clubs have most of their spending done and the season is only 3 weeks away.

We shud have most of our business pretty much wrapped up by now as normally was the case with us.

Normally the manger wasn't just back from the world cup though.

Adamocovic

Larry Wildman wrote: »

What in God's name are you talking about?

If Beckham looked like Luke Chadwick, he would not have people touting him as an all time great.

We get that you don't find Luke Chadwick attractive but it's a bit unfair to keep bringing his name up. Poor Luke will be crying himself to sleep tonight.

duffman13

Beckham was an excellent player for United but I can see where Larry is coming from in that he had a bigger profile than his ability should have allowed. At the time Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho were all in there prime. Becks was more well known and famous around the world than these guys. He was a fantastic player but he wasn't at the same level as those four.

bangkok

Larry Wildman wrote: »

What in God's name are you talking about?

I'll try and simplify it for you.

From purely a footballing perspective, Ronaldo and David Beckham should not be mentioned in the same breath. Yet they are. Why? Marketing and image.

If Beckham looked like Luke Chadwick, he would not have people touting him as an all time great.

On the other hand, if Ronaldo looked like Quasimodo he'd still be touted as an all time great.

Looks aren't relevant if you're actually that good, but in Beckham's case they have elevated him in people's consciousness to the upper echelons from a tier below where he belongs.

2nd in the '99 World Player was an abomination and symptomatic of exactly what I'm talking about.

You are clearly in your late teens early 20's and don't ever remember beckham when he broke into the United team, when fergie trust him over signing Marc overmars and when he went on to becoming 1/4 of the best premier league midfield of all time

Larry Wildman

bangkok wrote: »

You started off your whole argument saying he was the most overrated player of all time and now you are saying he was an excellent player?

Goodnight

More Straw Man stuff.

I did not say that he was the most overrated player of all time.

And another poster's claim that "excellent" is a synomyn for "great" is plain wrong. Ronaldo is a great player. Messi is a great player. Figo was a great player. Zidane was a great player. David Beckham does not belong in that category. His name only comes up because of hype, image and bullsh1t.

Informed and intelligent fans should laugh at the notion of David Beckham as a truly great player.

adox

I do think Woodward has set himself up for a fall.

My non logical head was delighted to hear what he had to say and got me thinking maybe there will be a top tier signing this summer.

My logical head was wondering why he was saying this publicly before any top tier signings, thinking there was possibly at least one in the bag that just needed the Ts crossed and would be announced shortly, or it was misguided bravado that would raise people's expectations beyond what can maybe be delivered and was at best misguided and maybe a little foolish.

Let's hope non logical wins the day and he slam dunks the Hummelidal.

Schwiiing

Would love to see the stats on RVN goals from Beckham assists. Anywhere up to half of them I would wager.

bangkok

duffman13 wrote: »

Beckham was an excellent player for United but I can see where Larry is coming from in that he had a bigger profile than his ability should have allowed. At the time Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho were all in there prime. Becks was more well known and famous around the world than these guys. He was a fantastic player but he wasn't at the same level as those four.

He was part of that team Figo zidane Ronaldo Raul team at Madrid and won player of d year in his final year. Madrid fans loved him, not because of his looks but because he gave 100% every game! chased every lost cause! supplied Ronaldo with some unbelievable passes, took most of the free kicks, his ability was clear to see

Adamocovic

duffman13 wrote: »

Beckham was an excellent player for United but I can see where Larry is coming from in that he had a bigger profile than his ability should have allowed. At the time Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho were all in there prime. Becks was more well known and famous around the world than these guys. He was a fantastic player but he wasn't at the same level as those four.

Well the thing with these opinions is we could argue all day who was better. I wouldn't say Beckham was better than Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo, or Ronaldinho, might have some better seasons, but I would definitely put him up there with the likes of those players. Beckham in the late 90s was outstanding.

I think the issue is to say he is the most overrated player of all time is a bit odd, and honestly there is good reason why most people consider him a United legend. Have to say this is the first time I've encountered someone who doesn't regard Beckham as a Club legend so its new territory for me ha.

duffman13

Larry Wildman wrote: »

2nd in the '99 World Player was an abomination and symptomatic of exactly what I'm talking about.

In fairness he was probably a stand out player that season in a team that won the treble. He came second behind Rivaldo who was part of a Barcelona team who won the league. Batistuta was 3rd and he won feck all with Fiorentina. Look back through the winners and top 3, they usually come from the successful teams. There was no team more successful than us in 99. Who would you have put in there ahead of him?

homerjay2005

Donnielighto wrote: »

Normally the manger wasn't just back from the world cup though.

We had similar excuse last summer, yet other clubs had their spending almost done before their new managers even sat foot in the clubs.

Van gaal is an intelligent man, he has already authorised getting rid of 3 players and signing two and considering we are down 3 players in defence, these deals should be wrapped up by now.

MagicMarker

bangkok wrote: »

He was part of that team Figo zidane Ronaldo Raul team at Madrid and won player of d year in his final year. Madrid fans loved him, not because of his looks but because he gave 100% every game! chased every lost cause! supplied Ronaldo with some unbelievable passes, took most of the free kicks, his ability was clear to see

bangkok

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Arguably one of the most overrated players in the history of the game.

I will leave it at that

Larry Wildman

bangkok wrote: »

You are clearly in your late teens early 20's and don't ever remember beckham when he broke into the United team, when fergie trust him over signing Marc overmars and when he went on to becoming 1/4 of the best premier league midfield of all time

You are so wrong you wouldn't believe.

I was 20 in Summer 1995 when we lost 3-1 to Villa. I actually saw Hansen live saying about the kids. I was at the '94 and '96 Cup Finals. Kanchelskis was a player I really liked. I've watched as much United and as much Beckham as anyone. I remember his performance against Blackburn shortly after the Villa debacle vividly (midweek as I recall).

So don't patronise me. I've forgotten more about Manchester United than most people will ever know.

"You must be a teenager"...ridiculous statement

adox

Larry Wildman wrote: »

More Straw Man stuff.

I did not say that he was the most overrated player of all time.

Larry Wildman wrote: »

When I see Giggs, I think United hero.

When I see Beckham, I think hype. Arguably one of the most overrated players in the history of the game. Also, his decision to go to the US while still in his prime was embarrassing from a football perspective.

One of.....


Hardly straw man stuff tbf.

duffman13

Adamocovic wrote: »

I think the issue is to say he is the most overrated player of all time is a bit odd, and honestly there is good reason why most people consider him a United legend. Have to say this is the first time I've encountered someone who doesn't regard Beckham as a Club legend so its new territory for me ha.

I agree with you here, Beckham was in the top 15 or 20 footballers from 98-00 and deserved to be recognised as such but would often be more well known than the very top players due to the media profile he held. He is a club legend and should be remembered as such.

adox

I think it's fair to say that Madrid bought the brand as much as the player when they bought Beckham.

TheTownie

adox wrote: »

I do think Woodward has set himself up for a fall.

My non logical head was delighted to hear what he had to say and got me thinking maybe there will be a top tier signing this summer.

My logical head was wondering why he was saying this publicly before any top tier signings, thinking there was possibly at least one in the bag that just needed the Ts crossed and would be announced shortly, or it was misguided bravado that would raise people's expectations beyond what can maybe be delivered and was at best misguided and maybe a little foolish.

Let's hope non logical wins the day and he slam dunks the Hummelidal.

Indeed. Would much prefer he stay quiet re transfers and go get things done asap.

bangkok

adox wrote: »

I think it's fair to say that Madrid bought the brand as much as the player when they bought Beckham.

Of course they did, but if brand beckham hadn't of gotten so big fergie would have never sold him, ferguson was basically beckhams 2nd father. He would have retired at United like Giggy's and scholes but he just happened to marry a spice girl and become mega famous

duffman13

bangkok wrote: »

He was part of that team Figo zidane Ronaldo Raul team at Madrid and won player of d year in his final year. Madrid fans loved him, not because of his looks but because he gave 100% every game! chased every lost cause! supplied Ronaldo with some unbelievable passes, took most of the free kicks, his ability was clear to see

As ive said, his ability was clear, I really rate him highly but Larrys argument has some merit even if it is on extreme side of things. He was an excellent player with probably the biggest media profile in world football. This has somewhat enhanced his reputation in certain parts of the world to legendary status. He will be considered a legend to most united fans where as Ronaldo/Zidane are seen as legends of the game

Larry Wildman

adox wrote: »

One of.....


Hardly straw man stuff tbf.

There is a world of different from being "the most" and "one of the most".

That's pure straw man stuff.

You've all been sucked in by the hype.

The seeds of this were sewn at the sight of Giggs and Beckham being put on a par with each other in a post / photo.

Terms like "legend" and "great" are bandied around too freely.

Vis a vis being a United "great", David Beckham is not fit to lace Ryan Giggs' boots. Giggs is right up there in my view and Beckham is quite a bit down the list. He's still on the list (I'm not for one minute saying that he's rubbish) but to compare him with Giggs in a United context or Zidane in a world context displays a total and complete lack of understanding of football.

paulbok

Adamocovic wrote: »

I saw him commenting on Stoke buying Bojan and honestly thought it was a piss take! Where did that come from, the guy was tipped to be the next Messi a few years back and then moves from Barcelona to Stoke? No disrespect to Mark and the boys but jakers what did they tell him to convince him to join ha.

Just testing out the wet winters night in Stoke before Messi moves next year

Larry Wildman

duffman13 wrote: »

I agree with you here, Beckham was in the top 15 or 20 footballers from 98-00 and deserved to be recognised as such but would often be more well known than the very top players due to the media profile he held. He is a club legend and should be remembered as such.

I'd agree re top 15 or 20.

Yet he's featuring near the top of World Player lists.

Why?

Hype.

It is naive and ridiculous to view him as a legend of the game. It is swallowing marketing guff hook line and sinker.

bangkok

Larry Wildman wrote: »

There is a world of different from being "the most" and "one of the most".

That's pure straw man stuff.

You've all been sucked in by the hype.

The seeds of this were sewn at the sight of Giggs and Beckham being put on a par with each other in a post / photo.

Terms like "legend" and "great" are bandied around too freely.

Vis a vis being a United "great", David Beckham is not fit to lace Ryan Giggs' boots. Giggs is right up there in my view and Beckham is quite a bit down the list. He's still on the list (I'm not for one minute saying that he's rubbish) but to compare him with Giggs in a United context or Zidane in a world context displays a total and complete lack of understanding of football.

As Roy Keane said, just because Giggs was there a long time doesn't make him a better player, I presume u remember when utd played inter Milan 99, their entire game plan was to stop beckham crosses? What happened 2 beckham crosses 2 goals. Ya can't stop class

Adamocovic

Larry Wildman wrote: »

There is a world of different from being "the most" and "one of the most".

That's pure straw man stuff.

You've all been sucked in by the hype.

The seeds of this were sewn at the sight of Giggs and Beckham being put on a par with each other in a post / photo.

Terms like "legend" and "great" are bandied around too freely.

Vis a vis being a United "great", David Beckham is not fit to lace Ryan Giggs' boots. Giggs is right up there in my view and Beckham is quite a bit down the list. He's still on the list (I'm not for one minute saying that he's rubbish) but to compare him with Giggs in a United context or Zidane in a world context displays a total and complete lack of understanding of football.

There is a difference between being "the most" and "one of the most" as you said. Just like there is "the best" and "one of the best". No one said Beckham was better than Giggs, all that was said was Beckham and Giggs were both United legends.

Duffman made a good point that you were saying that at times Beckhams media image improved his status in different countries. True. But I don't think there is anything crazy calling Beckham a United legend.

Why don't we just agree that you don't think he is a legend but others would call him that. Ha I see this whole Beckham thing just going in circles.

beno619

In fits of laughter whenever Luke Chadwick is referenced.

Adamocovic

paulbok wrote: »

Just testing out the wet winters night in Stoke before Messi moves next year

Hughes is working his magic would Messi find his way into that Stoke team though?

Cookiemunster

Larry Wildman wrote: »

I'd agree re top 15 or 20.

Yet he's featuring near the top of World Player lists.

Why?

Hype.

If you agree he's one of the top 15 to 20, how then can you possibly say he is one of the most overrated players of all time.

adox

Larry Wildman wrote: »

There is a world of different from being "the most" and "one of the most".

That's pure straw man stuff.

You've all been sucked in by the hype.

The seeds of this were sewn at the sight of Giggs and Beckham being put on a par with each other in a post / photo.

Terms like "legend" and "great" are bandied around too freely.

Vis a vis being a United "great", David Beckham is not fit to lace Ryan Giggs' boots. Giggs is right up there in my view and Beckham is quite a bit down the list. He's still on the list (I'm not for one minute saying that he's rubbish) but to compare him with Giggs in a United context or Zidane in a world context displays a total and complete lack of understanding of football.

Semantics rather than straw man IMO.

Also "you've all been sucked in by the hype" is pretty condescending to others on here that don't hold the same opinion as you as are some of your other comments.

That's cool if it's the way you want to go but doesn't really encourage healthy debate.

duffman13

Larry Wildman wrote: »

I'd agree re top 15 or 20.

Yet he's featuring near the top of World Player lists.

Why?

Hype.

In that 98/99 genuinely who would be your top 3. Bear in mind we are on the back of a treble which was unprecedented. Players of successful clubs are always rewarded in the player of the year votes

Adamocovic

beno619 wrote: »

In fits of laughter whenever Luke Chadwick is referenced.

The poor lad was getting awful comments about his looks. Still has a Premiership medal though :P

Larry Wildman

beno619 wrote: »

In fits of laughter whenever Luke Chadwick is referenced.

It was him or Frank Ribery...

homerjay2005

Beckham reached levels in 99 that only Ronaldo has surpassed since for the club, he was sensational.

Best crosser of a ball ive ever seen in the flesh. That cross to yorke in the 2-2 at anfield that April is one of the best crosses you will ever see.

bangkok

I see Gerrard has said beckham was one of the best english players he ever played with along with terry and Rooney. You have to remember what becks did for England as well, that game v Greece at ot was one of the best individual performances ever seen in England, he basically carried England through that game and scored the last min free kick as well

Larry Wildman

Cookiemunster wrote: »

If you agree he's one of the top 15 to 20, how then can you possibly say he is one of the most overrated players of all time.

Is this straw man stuff or not reading posts correctly?

I agreed that he was probably in the top 15 or 20 players during a three year period.

Yet awards wise and perception wise he was near the very top.

I'd call elevating the 17th best player to 2nd / 3rd "massive overrating"...would you not?

bangkok

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Beckham reached levels in 99 that only Ronaldo has surpassed since for the club, he was sensational.

Best crosser of a ball ive ever seen in the flesh. That cross to yorke in the 2-2 at anfield that April is one of the best crosses you will ever see.

Yes 1-2 with Keane then right onto Yorkes head, there was so many though. Pure class