Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 13/8

bangkok

bullvine wrote: »

He was a very good player, had a great career, was a great player for United. I just don't don't think he was a truly world class player in his prime. He lost his place in the United team to Solskjaer when was in his prime and was shipped out.

He was never even close to winning the PFA award as a United player, he finished runner up to Rivaldo in 99 in the Balon D'or when their had been 5-6 players better than him in the Treble season which I could never fathom.

and the reason he lost his place? Utd were due to play leeds united in a massive game, beckham missed training as his child was sick yet posh was seen out shopping, fergie dropped beckham for the leeds game and solskjaer played well. becks was put on the bench for the Madrid game, came on scored 2 goals and nearly got a hat trick. he didn't lose his place due to form, he was actually one of our best players and why it was massive news at the time

Lord TSC

bucketybuck wrote: »

Its insane how similar this summer is to last summer, we are doing the exact same bull**** all over again, don't know how more people can't see it. Horribly depressing as far as I am concerned.

Here's a very likely line up for our first game, in only two weeks time.

DeGea
Smalling
Evans
Jones
Shaw
Valencia
Cleverley
Herrera
Mata
Rooney
Van Persie

After all the hope and expectation that finally we might fix our problems that is the side we look to be starting the season with.

Can only answer for myself here, but a few points...

1. That team could easily trounce a good two thirds of the PL teams IMO (and easily stand up to the others too). Moyes, even at his worst, was still able to get results against two thirds of the league, so would have no fears about LVG with his better attacking philosophy doing well. In which case, I think that team could easily walk over our first 6 matches this season. We don't play a Top 6 team till, what, October? (Checked, Chelsea on October 26th). Before that....Swansea, Sunderland, Burnley, QPR, Lecister, West Ham, Everton, West Brom. The team you listed should absolutely plow through all of them, with maybe only Everton posing a real threat. To list that first team and imply it's "scary" is scary to me....

2. We've already brought in Herrera and Shaw, two players who (imo) upgrade significantly on our first team options from last year. To say this summer is like last when we've already brought in two hugely exciting young talents to play in problem areas seems crazy to me. It nearly strikes me as if we'd have been better off spreading these two transfers out a bit to calm people down; doing the two so quickly and efficently seems to have made people forget that it was brilliant business being done on the down low.

3. LVG on Day One said he'd be using the pre-season to assess the team and would be making the transfers once we got back. Likewise, he's already admitted to knowing he needs defenders and will be looking to bring them in. On some level, you've got to have faith in a manager and it strikes me that people were so burned by Moyes, they refuse to give LVG that faith needed. Which is a very slippy road to start going down already....

4. After that, to me, it seems a lot of people are being wound up by the press who are running this story into the ground, same as Thiago, Fabregas, Sneidjer....the summer becomes far more bearable when you take a step back and realise we nor most journalists don't have a ****ing clue what's happening behind the scenes. For all we know, we could have negotiations ongoing for multiple players, ala Herrera and Shaw; again, got to have some faith in LVG that he knows what he's doing somewhat.

The only real similarity to this time last year is people panicking, when the reality is that things are looking far, far brighter than this time last year. We have 4 weeks until the window closes, and 13 weeks until we actually face any real competition in the PL. Still plenty of time left for a manager and Chief Ex who have been very vocal in saying deals are coming.

(Off to the cinema now so won't get to reply to any reply till later....)

NTMK

Al Capwned wrote: »

^^^ was just gonna ask is it last week again.

the the new n*** conversation

bangkok

Larry Wildman wrote: »

It could.

I would venture that Beckham is not in the top 100 players of all time.

you have figo in the top 20 of all time and wouldn't have beckham in top 100 yet if you look at their stats..

figo career 795 games 133 goals
beckham career 719 games 129 goals

bullvine

bangkok wrote: »

and the reason he lost his place? Utd were due to play leeds united in a massive game, beckham missed training as his child was sick yet posh was seen out shopping, fergie dropped beckham for the leeds game and solskjaer played well. becks was put on the bench for the Madrid game, came on scored 2 goals and nearly got a hat trick. he didn't lose his place due to form, he was actually one of our best players and why it was massive news at the time

You are out by 3 years mate!

Maximus Alexander

NTMK wrote: »

the the new n*** conversation

Larry Wildman

bangkok wrote: »

you have figo in the top 20 of all time and wouldn't have beckham in top 100 yet if you look at their stats..

figo career 795 games 133 goals
beckham career 719 games 129 goals

What do stats prove? Nothing.

I'm sure that Frank Lampard's stats are better than that...

Al Capwned

And Frank Lampard was one of the best midfielders to play in the premier league.

bullvine

Sir Alex Ferguson has named the five Manchester United players he has worked with who he considers to be world class.

Peter Schmeichel, Eric Cantona and Roy Keane all make the list, along with current first-team players Ryan Giggs and Wayne Rooney.

Ferguson also argued that Paul Scholes could be regarded in the same bracket, and predicted that Cristiano Ronaldo would become world class.

However, the likes of David Beckham, Ruud van Nistelrooy and Bryan Robson were conspicuous by their absence.

"In my time I've been blessed with several world class players. Peter Schmeichel was certainly one, and Ryan Giggs for me, definitely," said Ferguson in the Manchester United Opus.

"Eric Cantona could have been even better, but for the parts of him you had to control.

"Wayne Rooney, that's four. Then there's Roy Keane, that's five.

"And I think Cristiano Ronaldo is going to be. He's playing in the hardest position, out wide, and never refuses to take the ball and attack players.

"And there's an argument for Paul Scholes, the cleverest midfield player we've ever had.

"To work with such people has been an absolute pleasure. It's fulfilled every aspiration."

newballsplease

Im gonna ignore this thread for few hours i think.
Same s**t different day.

Unearthly

homerjay2005 wrote: »

two weeks to the swansea game and we have 4 gaps in our first 11 at the moment

RB injured
vidic not replaced
rio not replaced
carrick injured.

at least 3 signings needed and nothing done to address it so far. how on earth has it come to this, again?

I was sitting on the fence til around July but very concerned now. Especially now that it's August and none of the usually reliable journalists have us down for making an immediate signing

MagicIRL

World class is thrown around too often in football.

Coat22

TheDoc wrote: »

So please enlighten us with your wisdom and inform us who the better pairings were?

This was never an argument about PAIRINGS, it was questioning whether Ferdinand and Vidic were the best 2 CBs EVER at the club.

IMHO (just mine – sorry if it offends people) Ferdinand while good was no better than Pallister. Most here scoff at the idea. That’s fine. My opinion only.
Also IMO Stam was the best defender I have seen not only at United but in the Premier League era.

This PAIRING (Stam and Pallister) was also the one that Keane picked during the Viera documentary (in fairness he didn’t play with Vidic so we’ll not know if he’d have picked him over Stam but I doubt it)

These arguments could go forever. Its all about individual opinions. No need for anyone to lose sleep over them.

bangkok

Larry Wildman wrote: »

What do stats prove? Nothing.

I'm sure that Frank Lampard's stats are better than that...

you clearly have a dislike for beckham or have never been to old Trafford to seen him play

keane2097

bullvine wrote: »

Sir Alex Ferguson has named the five Manchester United players he has worked with who he considers to be world class.

Peter Schmeichel, Eric Cantona and Roy Keane all make the list, along with current first-team players Ryan Giggs and Wayne Rooney.

Ferguson also argued that Paul Scholes could be regarded in the same bracket, and predicted that Cristiano Ronaldo would become world class.

However, the likes of David Beckham, Ruud van Nistelrooy and Bryan Robson were conspicuous by their absence.

"In my time I've been blessed with several world class players. Peter Schmeichel was certainly one, and Ryan Giggs for me, definitely," said Ferguson in the Manchester United Opus.

"Eric Cantona could have been even better, but for the parts of him you had to control.

"Wayne Rooney, that's four. Then there's Roy Keane, that's five.

"And I think Cristiano Ronaldo is going to be. He's playing in the hardest position, out wide, and never refuses to take the ball and attack players.

"And there's an argument for Paul Scholes, the cleverest midfield player we've ever had.

"To work with such people has been an absolute pleasure. It's fulfilled every aspiration."

Makes Ferguson sound like a clown tbh, when is that from?

bangkok

bullvine wrote: »

You are out by 3 years mate!

no I remember it well I was at the game, 20 feb 2000 elland road nearly got killed leaving the place!!

Oranage2

bucketybuck wrote: »

Its insane how similar this summer is to last summer, we are doing the exact same bull**** all over again, don't know how more people can't see it. Horribly depressing as far as I am concerned.

Here's a very likely line up for our first game, in only two weeks time.

DeGea
Smalling
Evans
Jones
Shaw
Valencia
Cleverley
Herrera
Mata
Rooney
Van Persie

After all the hope and expectation that finally we might fix our problems that is the side we look to be starting the season with.

The irony being you guys were sprouting these players off as being the best young players in world. How things have crumbled!

Larry Wildman

Al Capwned wrote: »

And Frank Lampard was one of the best midfielders to play in the premier league.

But not an "all time great".

The kernel of this is that Beckham is not a "Galactico" / "all time great".

Coat22

Will I Amnt wrote: »

If you bothered to ready my post properly you would have seen I said 2 of the best not the 2 best.

Fair enough

Cookiemunster

keane2097 wrote: »

Makes Ferguson sound like a clown tbh, when is that from?

Before CR made it big so it must be before the bust up with Keane and before he kissed and made up with Beckham.

Spazdarn

bullvine wrote: »

He was a very good player, had a great career, was a great player for United. I just don't don't think he was a truly world class player in his prime. He lost his place in the United team to Solskjaer when was in his prime and was shipped out.

He was never even close to winning the PFA award as a United player, he finished runner up to Rivaldo in 99 in the Balon D'or when their had been 5-6 players better than him in the Treble season which I could never fathom.

He lost his place due to arguments with Fergie about his celebrity status, he was still doing the business on the pitch before he left for Real.

Copper_pipe

Vidal's agent is Manchester bound according to el mercuro and tuttosport

bangkok

Larry Wildman wrote: »

But not an "all time great".

The kernel of this is that Beckham is not a "Galactico" / "all time great".

but he was a galactico...

"Galácticos (Spanish for galactics) are expensive, world-famous Real Madrid and football players recruited during the "galácticos" policy pursued during Florentino Pérez's presidency at Real Madrid"

expensive......check
world famous......check
footballer....check

Spazdarn

Larry Wildman wrote: »

But not an "all time great".

The kernel of this is that Beckham is not a "Galactico" / "all time great".

No one is claiming Beckham is an all time great. That's my point, he was still an exceptional player in that era.

As mentioned above Gallactico was a term used more often in the media for an expensive high profile player, not any indication of how well to measure up against the best players of all time

Cookiemunster

Oranage2 wrote: »

The irony being you guys were sprouting these players off as being the best young players in world. How things have crumbled!

I'd like you to quote anyone saying Smalling, Jones or Evans were the best young players in the world. The only other young players in there are Shaw who just joined the club and De Gea who definitely is.

bangkok

ToiletFusion wrote: »

He lost his place due to arguments with Fergie about his celebrity status, he was still doing the business on the pitch before he left for Real.

it wasn't he missed a training session in the build up to the leeds game

bullvine

I like Beckham but its debatable if he was world class, I personally don't thing he was but a lot of people could say that about a lot of players at United including Scholes, Cantona, Rooney, Giggs etc I'm not one of them though.

Personally in 20 years, Keane & Ronaldo have been the only players that have been unquestionably World Class footballers at United(not including Keepers).

I think the way he left United was terrible and I'd say he has regrets but I admire him greatly the way he helped Real win the league in 2007 considering Capello didn't rate him at all and had to work extra to get in the team.

TheTownie

Copper_pipe wrote: »

Vidal's agent is Manchester bound according to el mercuro and tuttosport

Bout time there was a Vidal update. I was starting to suffer from withdrawal.

Spazdarn

bangkok wrote: »

it wasn't he missed a training session in the build up to the leeds game

That's still a reason that doesn't have anything to do with his ability.

bullvine

ToiletFusion wrote: »

He lost his place due to arguments with Fergie about his celebrity status, he was still doing the business on the pitch before he left for Real.

Form had a lot to do with it as well, Solksjaer was phenomenal on the right wing that season and took his place for the most part.

bullvine

ToiletFusion wrote: »

That's still a reason that doesn't have anything to do with his ability.

That was Feb 2000! 3 years before he left.

bullvine

keane2097 wrote: »

Makes Ferguson sound like a clown tbh, when is that from?

He sure does, it was from December 2006.

Spazdarn

bullvine wrote: »

I like Beckham but its debatable if he was world class, I personally don't thing he was but a lot of people could say that about a lot of players at United including Scholes, Cantona, Rooney, Giggs etc I'm not one of them though.

Personally in 20 years, Keane & Ronaldo have been the only players that have been unquestionably World Class footballers at United(not including Keepers).

I think the way he left United was terrible and I'd say he has regrets but I admire him greatly the way he helped Real win the league in 2007 considering Capello didn't rate him at all and had to work extra to get in the team.

It depends again on your definition of world class, I think at the most basic level if you're one of top players in your position in an era where the competition is pretty good you can be deemed World Class.

So I'd very loosely consider him world class (in his position) but that's with the aid of hindsight.

Schmeichel was world class. Can't think of any other keepers at the time close to him, Oliver Kahn maybe?

Keane was definitely world class. Ronaldo obviously.

bangkok

bullvine wrote: »

Form had a lot to do with it as well, Solksjaer was phenomenal on the right wing that season and took his place for the most part.

no he didn't!!!

a couple of games is all he played on the wing, beckham was even voted on pfa team of the year that season!!!

Spazdarn

bullvine wrote: »

That was Feb 2000! 3 years before he left.

Are you claiming Beckham was second to Solskjaer for 3 years? My point is by the time he left United he was still performing to a high, that game against Real where he came off the bench sticking out in my mind

NoviGlitzko

Liam O wrote: »

I agree with Larry on this one even if I don't agree with how he's gone about it. You ask regular people to name the best United player from the 90s and they'll probably think of Beckham before Keane, Scholes, Giggs, Cantona etc. yet I don't think he was better or more important than any of those players and his celebrity status inflated his reputation as a player.

Anyone with decent knowledge of the game would think otherwise. You think his reputation has been enhanced by people who only know him outside of football?

bangkok

bullvine wrote: »

I like Beckham but its debatable if he was world class, I personally don't thing he was but a lot of people could say that about a lot of players at United including Scholes, Cantona, Rooney, Giggs etc I'm not one of them though.

Personally in 20 years, Keane & Ronaldo have been the only players that have been unquestionably World Class footballers at United(not including Keepers).

I think the way he left United was terrible and I'd say he has regrets but I admire him greatly the way he helped Real win the league in 2007 considering Capello didn't rate him at all and had to work extra to get in the team.

capello did rate him, thought he was fantastic but becks had a pre contract arrangement with LA galaxy and capello thought he wouldn't be focused enough to play for Madrid but that changed after he witnessed the best trainer by a mile with drive and passion. he forced his way back into the team, won player of the year and real won la liga

bullvine

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Are you claiming Beckham was second to Solskjaer for 3 years? My point is by the time he left United he was still performing to a high, that game against Real where he came off the bench sticking out in my mind

No, I was correcting Bangkok, he mentioned the fight before Leeds game which was actually 3 years before he lost his place to Solksjaer.

bangkok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3OxLqc3HO4

one of my favourite beckham goals, absolute world class finish

bullvine

bangkok wrote: »

no he didn't!!!

a couple of games is all he played on the wing, beckham was even voted on pfa team of the year that season!!!

I don't know what season you're thinking of but he wasn't in the PFA team in 02-03, I think you may be thinking of 2000. Solskjaer played a good few games on the right wing in 2003, both in the league and Europe when he linked up with Van Nistellrooy brilliantly.

bangkok

bullvine wrote: »

No, I was correcting Bangkok, he mentioned the fight before Leeds game which was actually 3 years before he lost his place to Solksjaer.

how? that was feb 2000, beckham went to Madrid summer 03, so how did he lose his place? his last season he played 51 games with united!!!

bullvine

bangkok wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3OxLqc3HO4

one of my favourite beckham goals, absolute world class finish

This one is my fave!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKlp0PzeJQ8

bucketybuck

Lord TSC wrote: »

1. That team could easily trounce a good two thirds of the PL teams IMO (and easily stand up to the others too). Moyes, even at his worst, was still able to get results against two thirds of the league, so would have no fears about LVG with his better attacking philosophy doing well. In which case, I think that team could easily walk over our first 6 matches this season. We don't play a Top 6 team till, what, October? (Checked, Chelsea on October 26th).

You can't deny that after all the hope and expectation of finally fixing our problems this summer, to settle for just being good enough to get through the first six game is very disappointing.

2. We've already brought in Herrera and Shaw, two players who (imo) upgrade significantly on our first team options from last year. To say this summer is like last when we've already brought in two hugely exciting young talents to play in problem areas seems crazy to me.

The problem is that they are not nearly enough. Go back to March/April and a lot of the discussion was about the five/six players we needed to sign this summer, we only have two, and thats not even getting into the number of players who have left the club.

LVG on Day One said he'd be using the pre-season to assess the team and would be making the transfers once we got back. Likewise, he's already admitted to knowing he needs defenders and will be looking to bring them in. On some level, you've got to have faith in a manager and it strikes me that people were so burned by Moyes, they refuse to give LVG that faith needed. Which is a very slippy road to start going down already....

But LVG is doing the same things Moyes did, we are just applying the same standards.

After that, to me, it seems a lot of people are being wound up by the press who are running this story into the ground

Personally I ignore the transfer rumors, I base my opinions on the squad we have and at the minute we have a severely broken squad.

bullvine

bangkok wrote: »

how? that was feb 2000, beckham went to Madrid summer 03, so how did he lose his place? his last season he played 51 games with united!!!

This what you said

"and the reason he lost his place? Utd were due to play leeds united in a massive game, beckham missed training as his child was sick yet posh was seen out shopping, fergie dropped beckham for the leeds game and solskjaer played well. becks was put on the bench for the Madrid game, came on scored 2 goals and nearly got a hat trick. he didn't lose his place due to form, he was actually one of our best players and why it was massive news at the time "

You have two facts separated by 3 years. The way you have written it describes it as he lost his place to Solksjaer for the Leeds game and subsequently was sold to Real that season, that's not what happened.

And by the way it was actually Scholes as I remember who played on the right wing that day not Solksjaer.

Did you not say you were at that match?

RGDATA!

bangkok wrote: »

no I remember it well I was at the game, 20 feb 2000 elland road nearly got killed leaving the place!!

Solskjaer didn't play that game you're talking about Bangkok, you may be mixing it up with another game.

Nalz

vidal or beckham or beedsmore?

duffman13

We need a new thread for ex player debates! The same arguments occur weekly with no real right or wrong opinions. Perception, age, opinion will all lead people to disagree over certain players and who was better or world class. Doesn't mean anyone was right or wrong, some of the disagreements are borderline pedantic

bullvine

duffman13 wrote: »

We need a new thread for ex player debates! The same arguments occur weekly with no real right or wrong opinions. Perception, age, opinion will all lead people to disagree over certain players and who was better or world class. Doesn't mean anyone was right or wrong, some of the disagreements are borderline pedantic

The lack of United news is driving us all cuckoo...

MagicIRL

Ruud van Nistelrooy is named one of the Netherlands assistant coaches.

The 38-year-old former Manchester United and Real Madrid striker will work under new coach Guus Hiddink and alongside Danny Blind, who is set to take over from Hiddink in 2018.

Van Nistelrooy scored 35 goals in a 70-match international career which started in 1998 and finished in 2011.

TheDoc

I think the lack of forward developement on Vidal is causing all the unrest.

Our deals this summer while maybe have been signalled out, were void of all information and forward warning.

Wouldn't be suprised if Vidal signing gathers steam only really a few hours before it actually happens.

Or in regards to any player coming in.

In terms of who we are after, we are keeping things tight to the chest. I've no doubt enquiries are being made. For all we know there is a few lined up ready to go, as backups for maybe a prioirty target falling through.

Granted with only two weeks until kick off its cutting it a bit tight, but Van Gaal might wait until the tournament he is in finishes, to then say " right finalise x,y,z".