A3 National Championships 2014

Cond0r

Looks like a nice circuit, and it's great to see that there's a deal for accommodation!

However, according to http://www.irishcyclingphotos.com/?p=38566 the organiser is only accepting entries via POST (postal order). Seriously, have we regressed to the 1990s?

Considering Cycling Ireland now have the facility to organise entry and payment on their own site (which was used for the elite nationals road race and TT), along with third-party sites like precision timing, etc, it seems a bit mad that this is via snail mail.

De Bhál

As you say it definitely needs to be online entry in this day and age.
There seems to be very little info about it online also apart from that bit on the irishcyclingphotos website.

The Deenside Cup in Castlecomer earlier this year was an example in how to promote a race properly.

Lusk_Doyle

John Rowan FTW again!

Inquitus

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

John Rowan FTW again!

Have you seen the course? Johnny Holland ftw!

lennymc

I agree. all the volunteers organising races should get off their arses and put up facebook pages and online payment to make it slightly easier to enter a race.

Obviously that was said slightly tounge in cheek

From my own experience dealing with people who organise a lot of races, and talking to other people who organise races, there is a core group of people who do the organising. They have done it for years, before cycling was so popular, and will probably continue to do it for years because they love it. Some of these people may or may not have the ability or access to set up online payments, or facebook pages, or anything else online. As new blood comes through the clubs, I'm sure that will change, but for now, be thankful that there are people out there willing to put in a lot of their own free time to organise cycles races so you can go race your bike every week. Is it a lot to ask that you respect their chosen method of payment? If it really gets to you maybe contact the organising club offering your services? I've never heard of anyone offering to help being turned away.

Lusk_Doyle

Inquitus wrote: »

Have you seen the course? Johnny Holland ftw!

You don't believe in John?

Cond0r

I do understand that a lot of folks organising races may not be tech-savvy, but they also are usually part of a larger group or club which almost always contain such people. They should be able to draw upon these folks to help out, IMO.

Last year's A3 National Champs was incredibly well promoted by Omagh Wheelers, and registration was done via eventmaster.ie.

This year CI have provided facilities to make things even easier (and maybe even without a commission which third-party sites would charge).

Cond0r

Also, perfect example of how to promote a race is also the Laragh Classic:

http://www.sttiernanscc.com/laragh-classic-road-race

lennymc

Cond0r wrote: »

I do understand that a lot of folks organising races may not be tech-savvy, but they also are usually part of a larger group or club which almost always contain such people. They should be able to draw upon these folks to help out, IMO.

A club may Contain such people, but a club can not force said people to volunteer.

St Tiernans obviously have people willing to volunteer who are tech savvy. Not every club has that luxury.

CI have provided facilities, but again, if you don't have the experience or technical ability to use them, they are about as much use as a hairdryer to a fish.

Cond0r

lennymc wrote: »

A club may Contain such people, but a club can not force said people to volunteer.

I totally understand this, I'm a member of a club committee myself. I think that if you're going to promote a national champs event like this, you need to be set up for it.

lennymc

I would rather the committee focused on providing a safe well run event myself. Sure, it's nice to have bells and whistles, but not everyone willing to take on a national c'ship has the ability to provide that, but they do have the ability to put on a great event. I don't think that not having online entry means that a club is not set up to take on the race. If it was a requirement that online entry was mandatory I'm sure there would be a lot less clubs willing to take on event organisation. You also run the risk of preventing people from entering races if you have online entry only, as some people who race may not feel comfortable online. This was raised at the AGM last year.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

sheepfield

Anyway, what is the route for the champs like? Wondering whether to dust off the postal orders or not

Inquitus

sheepfield wrote: »

Anyway, what is the route for the champs like? Wondering whether to dust off the postal orders or not

http://www.strava.com/routes/667815

Very decent climb x9 with a little bit of flat in between the descent and climb again.

Cond0r

lennymc wrote: »

I would rather the committee focused on providing a safe well run event myself. Sure, it's nice to have bells and whistles, but not everyone willing to take on a national c'ship has the ability to provide that, but they do have the ability to put on a great event. I don't think that not having online entry means that a club is not set up to take on the race. If it was a requirement that online entry was mandatory I'm sure there would be a lot less clubs willing to take on event organisation. You also run the risk of preventing people from entering races if you have online entry only, as some people who race may not feel comfortable online. This was raised at the AGM last year.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Yep, I know. I agree totally about the safe and well run event part. First impressions are formed at registration time, and that left me a little worried about the general organisation. I realise one doesn't necessarily lead to the other, but there you go.

ragazzo

Cond0r wrote: »

Yep, I know. I agree totally about the safe and well run event part. First impressions are formed at registration time, and that left me a little worried about the general organisation. I realise one doesn't necessarily lead to the other, but there you go.

It's not a crime to support AnPost. I think that company probably contributes more to Irish Cycling than most others I can think of.

Snail mail only takes one day. You have weeks to enter so no big drama!

Blarney have organised big events for many years so I do not think there will be a problem in that regard.

fixie fox

ragazzo wrote: »

.... Blarney have organised big events for many years so I do not think there will be a problem in that regard.

There are two clubs based in Blarney

ragazzo

fixie fox wrote: »

There are two clubs based in Blarney

One Team and one club perhaps. My point is that cycling people in Blarney have organised many different events over the years. These same people are probably now spread between club and Team but I still think the A3/junior Championships will be a well organised event.

Maybe you have information that leads you to a different conclusion.
Time will tell, I suppose.

Inquitus

Are the A3 and Juniors a combined race or separate races?

wav1

Inquitus wrote: »

Are the A3 and Juniors a combined race or separate races?

They will be 2 separate races.If I am to be honest [and this goes back to another topic which I have no intention of addressing now]last years A3 champs was about the most negative A3 race of the year.

Inquitus

wav1 wrote: »

They will be 2 separate races.If I am to be honest [and this goes back to another topic which I have no intention of addressing now]last years A3 champs was about the most negative A3 race of the year.

The circuit looks pretty selective this year.

wav1

Inquitus wrote: »

The circuit looks pretty selective this year.

Hope so.A3s will need to race
because if it follows the same format as the last 2 yrs,pretty good chance of the juniors catching up on a 10k odd circuit.2 races will be on at the same time but I could be wrong.Hopefully will be 2 great races on the day in a beautiful neck of the woods.

Cond0r

wav1 wrote: »

They will be 2 separate races.If I am to be honest [and this goes back to another topic which I have no intention of addressing now]last years A3 champs was about the most negative A3 race of the year.

Huh? Why is that?

lennymc

Cond0r wrote: »

Huh? Why is that?

no crazy juniors to constantly attack probably.

Cond0r

lennymc wrote: »

no crazy juniors to constantly attack probably.

There were plenty of crazy A3s doing the attacking

rigal

Using postal entries is hardly an indication that the race won't be well organised. Great races like Newry 3 day etc still use postal entries. It's not ideal but not something I'd get hung up on.

Fair play to the organizers for taking this on and choosing a more selective course. The last two years have been flat courses and as Wav1 says the racing has been quite negative. I met one of the the organizers of this year's race in Omagh last year and they were taking notes on how they might improve things in 2014. That impressed me although any event run by Omagh Wheelers will be hard to beat!

harringtonp

wav1 wrote: »

Hope so.A3s will need to race
because if it follows the same format as the last 2 yrs,pretty good chance of the juniors catching up on a 10k odd circuit.2 races will be on at the same time but I could be wrong.Hopefully will be 2 great races on the day in a beautiful neck of the woods.

Yes they probably will :

---

t(A3) = 95.4/s(A3) time/speed of A3
t(J) = 106/s(J)

If juniors were to catch A3's on the line at the end of the A3 race then

t(A3) + 1/12 = t(J) Juniors have 5 min head start which 1/12 hour

So 95.4/s(A3) + 1/12 = 106/s(J)
(95.4*12+s(A3))/12*s(A3) = 106/s(J)

s(J) = (106*12*s(A3)) / (95.4*12+s(A3)) = 1272*s(A3) / (1144.8 + s(A3))

So if the A3's average 37km/hr Juniors need to average (1272*37)/(1144.8+37) = 39.8km/hr to catch them !

crashoveroid

wav1 wrote: »

Hope so.A3s will need to race
because if it follows the same format as the last 2 yrs,pretty good chance of the juniors catching up on a 10k odd circuit.2 races will be on at the same time but I could be wrong.Hopefully will be 2 great races on the day in a beautiful neck of the woods.

I'm not sure your right about 2012 as the A3 race avg was 41k hr according to what i had ridden that day.

The Juniors that day was 40.5 so we were still quicker no chance of ever being caught not sure about last year.

XtotheZ

crashoveroid wrote: »

I'm not sure your right about 2012 as the A3 race avg was 41k hr according to what i had ridden that day.

The Juniors that day was 40.5 so we were still quicker no chance of ever being caught not sure about last year.

2 years go there was under 40 odd riders in junior race, with under 20 finishing, if memory serves me correct. Due to how it raced (mullen and fallon going off by themselves and everyone else forming an orderly paceline for 70k to bring them back) it dosnt surprise me it was slower. Dunbar will easily knock a minute out of whatever speed the a3s go up that climb I reckon. Keeping in mind itll spread out alot especially on the later laps and if the a3s are negative, it could well be groupo compacto

wav1

Heres my call for tomorrow Con Doherty from Covey to win the A 3 champs and covey also for team medals.Dylan O Brien for jun r/r and NRPT team medals

elchupanebrey

wav1 wrote: »

Heres my call for tomorrow Con Doherty from Covey to win the A 3 champs and covey also for team medals.Dylan O Brien for jun r/r and NRPT team medals

No Con as he is on the National Tri squad and they won't allow him to race!! Someone else will have to step up!

wav1

elchupanebrey wrote: »

No Con as he is on the National Tri squad and they won't allow him to race!! Someone else will have to step up!

Thanks for the info.More wide open than ever so as I had him down as the big favourite.
Going now for Aidan Wall from Navan

Inquitus

wav1 wrote: »

Thanks for the info.More wide open than ever so as I had him down as the big favourite.
Going now for Aidan Wall from Navan

What's your criteria Wav, what are you looking for in the winner on this course. Having driven it this evening I think the juniors will catch us if ten minutes the gap.

wav1

Inquitus wrote: »

What's your criteria Wav, what are you looking for in the winner on this course. Having driven it this evening I think the juniors will catch us if ten minutes the gap.

Think its a real strong mans race as opposed to the normal strictly climber or sprinters course and both of the lads I mentioned would fall in to that category.Your own crew could/should have a bearing as theres a nice crew with decent ability.I do agree as expressed earlier that the juniors could come close to catching the A3 riders if its the normal hell for leather stuff from them.Circuit too short at under 11k in my opinion but I hope it doesn't happen,As for myself looks like im going to miss it as my one rider has a chest infection that wont go away and also is still suffering the aftermaths from a spill n Lurgan 2 weeks ago.Anyway best of luck.It wouldn't be too far for me to travel up to celebrate with ye crew.BTW what do you think yourself?

Inquitus

wav1 wrote: »

Think its a real strong mans race as opposed to the normal strictly climber or sprinters course and both of the lads I mentioned would fall in to that category.Your own crew could/should have a bearing as theres a nice crew with decent ability.I do agree as expressed earlier that the juniors could come close to catching the A3 riders if its the normal hell for leather stuff from them.Circuit too short at under 11k in my opinion but I hope it doesn't happen,As for myself looks like im going to miss it as my one rider has a chest infection that wont go away and also is still suffering the aftermaths from a spill n Lurgan 2 weeks ago.Anyway best of luck.It wouldn't be too far for me to travel up to celebrate with ye crew.BTW what do you think yourself?

Interesting course, not sure many will have ever done a climb like that nine times in a race. I think it will whittle the bunch down a lot, and the final time up the hill will leave a very small bunch contesting the win on the final short flat section to the line. That said a good break could get away and stay away as well.

Inquitus

The course had been lengthened by 1km since the initial route, so less likely a catch is made.

Plastik

Simon Lambert Wexford Wheelers A3 Champ.

O'Loughlin and Dunbar clear of field on last lap.

Morrisseeee

Broke away from work to catch some of the action:
/that hill is steeper than I remembered, and into a raging headwind, tough going once, never mind *9 or 10 times !!

Plastik

Dunbar from O'Loughlin

boege

Any sign of full results anywhere?

XtotheZ

someone has to educate a3 riders on how to catch bottles. There was a whorish amount dropped. Only 4 crashes in the a3 aswell and i was caught behind all of them

Junior

XtotheZ wrote: »

someone has to educate a3 riders on how to catch bottles. There was a whorish amount dropped. Only 4 crashes in the a3 aswell and i was caught behind all of them

Someone needs to educate you on your positional sense so :pac:

Cond0r

A few comments on yesterday's A3 National Championships race.

The good:
- Having a hotel with sign-on (+prize giving afterwards), special deal, and being right on the circuit was fantastic. Made it far less hassle than usual.

- The hill was a real challenge, and the likes you rarely get in races and I'd love to see more of it. I made it up all 8 times (last time just about) and finished in the second or third group on the road, which I was happy with.

The bad:
- The section of the circuit from the hotel all the way down to the R579 was completely unsuitable for a race with a field of 100+ competitors.

- The descent from the crossroads down to the R579 was lethal in the wet on the first lap, with oncoming cars and riders hedge to hedge. The road surface was also horrific and caused people to lose bottles left and right. I actually thought about bailing out at this point because it was so dangerous. It seems the Garda on the junction at the bottom eventually stopped traffic coming up as I didn't see any more afterwards.

- The stop / start nature of the race (as mentioned on sticky bottle) wasn't due to riders being negative, but oncoming cars in various locations causing the bunch to be squeezed together and almost coming to a halt.

- Riders were all over the road on the R179 at 60km/h around the blind bends. One guy narrowly avoided hitting a van which came flying around the corner.

- The commissaire at the start of the race said it would be "neutralised to the main road", but in fact the lead car sped off immediately after exiting the entrance to the hotel. Many of us were looking at each other going "are we racing now, or..?". Also his address was along the lines of "now lads, ye know what to do, the roads are open and the rules of the road apply" and that was it. IMO this is an absolute disgrace. No mention of sanctions for riding on the wrong side of the road or anything.

Overall, I found the race to be very stressful and never felt safe on the circuit at all and I feel that for a national championship event the roads should have been closed (at the very least to oncoming traffic).

If we're going to continue to race on open roads, I think that Cycling Ireland need to step up to the mark and ensure that their commissaires start sanctioning riders for riding dangerously and properly enforce the rules of the road. There are already issues with Gardaí and local authorities in some areas because of issues like this, and it's only going to get worse.

I'm sorry to say this, but a National Championship event should be an example for other races to follow, and unfortunately yesterday's was far from it in my opinion.

*dons his asbestos suit*

bwalsh1983

One crash in the A3 was due to a tiny but deep pothole that was a fork breaker at speed, unfortunate spill. There was bottles all over the road so it clearly had been hit over and over again by both races. I rolled over a bottle in the middle of the bunch on the climb as the rider in front of me dropped it whilst trying to take from the side of the road.

Other was on the bottom corner coming to the foot of the first bump, wet manhole on the inside, easily happens.

I'm not sure how the crash on the straight by the golf club happened but I was lucky enough to skirt around it and rejoin quickly.

The forth was an inexcusable shunt that I got from a rider on my right who went to go through a non existent gap between the two lines as we headed out on the final lap. He leaned on me, I got pushed into the rider coming up on the inside and both us us went into the ditch with the rider who caused it happily continuing with the bunch. Im happy to come away with only a few scrapes but unlucky for the Deenside guy who went down inside me to fracure his collarbone. These things happen I suppose and we will do it all next week again.

The course was a tough one with the headwind up the climb making it that little bit more. The group more pulsed and stalled than had a consistent pace, with the break not really having enough men in it to make it stick and too many folks who would want to bring it back at the pointy end of affairs. As someone said here it was a much depleted front group who contested the sprint, maybe 10 riders, so the final ascent must have had a markedly increased pace. I'll never know!

Inquitus

I concur with alot of what is said here, it's a good job the rain stayed largely away after the first lap, the descent was hairy enough in the dry, let alone the wet, the corner into the first climb was littered with manhole covers on the racing line and indeed caused the first crash when a fella lost his front wheel in the wet on one. There was a sinkhole that could swallow a small car on the superfast section of the R179 which caused one high speed crash and sent bottle flying in all directions every lap....one lad hit it and I heard a massive crack, be interested to hear if his frame snapped.

All in all I don't think the circuit or the surface were up to a big field like we had yesterday, and if the rain had kept on pissing down there would have been more crashes. If the race were on again tomorrow I probably wouldn't head down.

On a positive side it was a very challenging circuit, and that climb was a bitch, especially as it came round every 15 minutes or so, the hotel was a fantastic base for the race and the deal the lads got for participants was very keenly priced.

I was a DNF 5 times up the hill was enough for me and then the elastic snapped, got caught up behind a few crashes here and there, but my forms been on the slide for a while and I simply wasn't good enough to make it up the hill 8 times with the bunch. No doubt the winner is well worthy on a circuit like that, well done Mr Lambert!

bwalsh1983

Inquitus wrote: »

There was a sinkhole that could swallow a small car on the superfast section of the R179 which caused one high speed crash and sent bottle flying in all directions every lap....one lad hit it and I heard a massive crack, be interested to hear if his frame snapped.

that could have possibly been me, bike seems totally fine but jesus it was a awful thump. It knocked a guys handlebars out of line on about the third lap.

XtotheZ

Junior wrote: »

Someone needs to educate you on your positional sense so :pac:

i completely agree that said I did manage to attack over the top of the climb, join up with another rider from the edge and spent a full lap away only to be caught going up the climb the following lap


The course although tough was strange in that it seemed to be 15minutes of not very much, followed by 5min of effort. A longer lap, imho would of been more suitable and would of allowed abit more area for attacking.

sheepfield

Inquitus wrote: »

I concur with alot of what is said here, it's a good job the rain stayed largely away after the first lap, the descent was hairy enough in the dry, let alone the wet, the corner into the first climb was littered with manhole covers on the racing line and indeed caused the first crash when a fella lost his front wheel in the wet on one. There was a sinkhole that could swallow a small car on the superfast section of the R179 which caused one high speed crash and sent bottle flying in all directions every lap....one lad hit it and I heard a massive crack, be interested to hear if his frame snapped.

All in all I don't think the circuit or the surface were up to a big field like we had yesterday, and if the rain had kept on pissing down there would have been more crashes. If the race were on again tomorrow I probably wouldn't head down.

On a positive side it was a very challenging circuit, and that climb was a bitch, especially as it came round every 15 minutes or so, the hotel was a fantastic base for the race and the deal the lads got for participants was very keenly priced.

I was a DNF 5 times up the hill was enough for me and then the elastic snapped, got caught up behind a few crashes here and there, but my forms been on the slide for a while and I simply wasn't good enough to make it up the hill 8 times with the bunch. No doubt the winner is well worthy on a circuit like that, well done Mr Lambert!

A great circuit in theory, worthy of a national championship, but must agree that the descent and the surface in places was a disgrace. Did anybody else have a laugh at the fact that the only pothole/surface that was marked was going up a hill? Also, having ridden round on the Saturday, I noticed the huge sinkhole on the main road and reckoned it would cause trouble. Was aware of it but sure enough, I still managed to smack it at 50kmh on lap 1, thank god I kept it up and that I invested in one of the finest bike frames out there. At this early stage, with traffic all over the route, it felt like the most nervous/dangerous race of the season. Next time round, I think the chap from Deenside had the same fate at the sinkhole; he crashed not long after, so maybe they were connected? I got dropped early but made the finish - counted 14 bottles on the road at the same spot on the final lap. Plus I saw a garda picking his nose as he let cars come up towards us at one stage. Just not what I would expect at a championship

Cond0r

sheepfield wrote: »

A great circuit in theory, worthy of a national championship, but must agree that the descent and the surface in places was a disgrace. Did anybody else have a laugh at the fact that the only pothole/surface that was marked was going up a hill? Also, having ridden round on the Saturday, I noticed the huge sinkhole on the main road and reckoned it would cause trouble. Was aware of it but sure enough, I still managed to smack it at 50kmh on lap 1, thank god I kept it up and that I invested in one of the finest bike frames out there. At this early stage, with traffic all over the route, it felt like the most nervous/dangerous race of the season. Next time round, I think the chap from Deenside had the same fate at the sinkhole; he crashed not long after, so maybe they were connected? I got dropped early but made the finish - counted 14 bottles on the road at the same spot on the final lap. Plus I saw a garda picking his nose as he let cars come up towards us at one stage. Just not what I would expect at a championship

I managed to hit the sink hole twice on two consecutive laps, thankfully neither bike, bottles nor rider were lost in it. An aqua blue rider didn't have the same luck -- at least I'm fairly sure it was the cause of his high speed tumble.

XtotheZ

sheepfield wrote: »

A great circuit in theory, worthy of a national championship, but must agree that the descent and the surface in places was a disgrace. Did anybody else have a laugh at the fact that the only pothole/surface that was marked was going up a hill? Also, having ridden round on the Saturday, I noticed the huge sinkhole on the main road and reckoned it would cause trouble. Was aware of it but sure enough, I still managed to smack it at 50kmh on lap 1, thank god I kept it up and that I invested in one of the finest bike frames out there. At this early stage, with traffic all over the route, it felt like the most nervous/dangerous race of the season. Next time round, I think the chap from Deenside had the same fate at the sinkhole; he crashed not long after, so maybe they were connected? I got dropped early but made the finish - counted 14 bottles on the road at the same spot on the final lap. Plus I saw a garda picking his nose as he let cars come up towards us at one stage. Just not what I would expect at a championship

I done the course on saturday night in my trainers and again sunday morning and never noticed it. only that i heard two local lads chatting about it at the start and i asked them where it was that I knew to keep away. I heard lads hitting it aswell on the first lap.

Cond0r

Also, as I think of it - there was no mention or announcement anywhere of the last minute route change which seemed to be done in the days leading up to the event presumably in order to avoid the junior and A3 groups coming together.

sheepfield

Cond0r wrote: »

Also, as I think of it - there was no mention or announcement anywhere of the last minute route change which seemed to be done in the days leading up to the event presumably in order to avoid the junior and A3 groups coming together.

Yes, good point. And what about the one-way traffic system?