Why change the championship structure?

Flukey

There are a lot of recurring threads on this forum and amongst one of the most common of them are everyone's ideas for their new improved championship structure. I'll stick at football, though a lot of what I am saying can equally be applied to Hurling. So, anyway, what is it exactly you are trying to achieve with a new structure? No matter what way you change it, only one team will walk up the steps of the Hogan Stand come September. The team that does so is going to be the best or at least one of the best teams.

People seem to have this idea that changing it will help the weaker counties. Fact is though, no weaker county has or ever will win the championship. However, a county that is now a weaker county, could at some point in the future win it, though of course at that point they will not be a weaker county. Many former weaker counties, have improved and eventually walked up the steps of the Hogan Stand. It wasn't the championship structure that had anything to do with that rise in their performances. It was hard work, training, dedication etc. that made it happen. For any of today's weaker counties to some day win an All-Ireland, that is what they will have to do. Changing the championship structure won't do that.

People say it is not fair that some counties are out of the championship by June and have no more matches until the league starts. Come on though, counties have to get knocked out at some stage and some have to be first to go. One of the big arguments for the qualifiers was to give teams a second match, and that it would help the weaker counties. Naturally and obviously while it might give them one more match, it is not going to help them win an All-Ireland and it will help the stronger counties. Some now say that it is not fair a team is out after 2 matches. The way some people go on it is almost as if their ultimate goal is that the All-Ireland Final would be contested by 32 counties. Sorry guys, only 2 can get there, no matter what structure you can come up with.

Then there is the "scrap the provincial championships" argument and have a "Champions League" format to give teams more matches. How many teams play in the Champions League final? How many weaker teams make it? Obvious answers there, so although they may get a few more games, a weaker county won't be there come September. They may last a little longer on the calendar, but they are still going to go out and do so early. Having more matches would put even more pressure on the already pressurised club scene too.

The provincial championships are much maligned and yes they are not perfectly balanced due to the different amount of counties. The great beauty of our championships though, is that come September, at least 4 and since the coming of the qualifiers, even 5 teams can walk away with silverware. Counties that have little hope of being around come September, can still target that bit of silverware available in July. Now that is something for the slightly weaker counties to aim for, and some have made it in modern times, like Westmeath, Leitrim, Clare and others. How did they get to that level? They did it by putting the effort in to lift their standards. That, and only that, will ever help a weaker county.

Another argument against the provincial championships is how they are dominated by a limited number of counties. Yes, the likes of Kerry, Dublin, Mayo etc. can indeed boast of many provincial titles. However, though a county may have many titles, individual players don't. When the most successful of counties win a provincial title, there are usually some players in the panel getting a first ever provincial title and it means a lot to them. When there is a long gap between titles, even for successful counties, there is lots of excitement among the team and supporters. Should they be denied that because their county has been successful? Should the less successful ones be denied those rare occasions when they do win a provincial title? Most of the greatest players to never win an All-Ireland do have provincial medals. Would it be a good idea to change that?

Yes, there are the imbalances in size and success, but there is still something special about the provincial championships and those great rivalries and the days when some team upsets the form book and the bookies. Getting rid of the provincial championships will get rid of teams dominating them, but it will also get rid of those big upsets, the chances of teams having something else to aim for instead of an All-Ireland, the excitement of individuals getting a medal, the excitement of fans and so much more. Some of the great rivalries may still come up from time to time in an open draw, but not as often and with an edge missing when there isn't that July silverware at stake.

So there are lots of perceived reasons for changing the structures, but will they really change anything? To pick a random county, would having a completely new structure next year boost Carlow's chances of collecting Sam or Liam next year, or will it be the usual suspects that you can put your money on? I think we all know the answer to that. If they get their heads down and train hard and work on their skills and tactics and all that, that will help them and 10 years from now we could be talking about Carlow as a strong county in both codes. Maybe not, but doing those things is going to do more for their chances than any structure of a championship that has ever been posted here or proposed anywhere else, as I keep saying. So while you may have an idea for a new structure, will it really have changed anything when the final whistle of the final is blown?

thelad95

The argument for a new structure is that the whole thing feels a bit stale to be honest. The provincials are becoming worthless to most counties and counties who truly care about them aren't good enough to win them frankly.

The famous Champions league format would never be accepted, far too much change. A couple of people have mentioned scrapping the league and running a March to September season where a CL type format along with the provincial championships would run simultaneously. I think this is the way forward.

The Lost Sheep

Because championship is gone stale. Is uneven in terms of when teams enter all Ireland series/qualifiers depending on province.
Yes no weaker team will win an all Ireland and that's no matter what the format is but the chances of everyone winning should be the same at the start of the year and it isn't because of how the championship is structured.
Yes counties have to be knocked out at some stage but nature of championship can mean teams can go weeks without a game and then get games in consecutive weeks.
With a champions league league format, Everyone starts the group stage at the same level. Everyone has the exact same number of games to play to win the competition. That is not the case now.

Flukey

Thinking that the provincial championships are becoming worthless is falling into that mindset that just measures the total amount a county has, and not looking at it in the present time. If you are a Kerry footballer or a Kilkenny hurler, winning that first provincial medal is huge. The fact that players from their counties have been winning them for decades has no value to them. If that were the case, Kilkenny, Kerry and others would pull out because they've won it so often and it no longer means anything to them. Try telling that to Brian Cody. Kilkenny have lots of All-Irelands, but in the history of the GAA Kilkenny have never won the 2014 All-Ireland Hurling Championship, and if they don't do it this year, they never will. That is the mindset they have. Look at a stronger county on the day they lose a provincial or All-Ireland just after the final whistle. Are they all there looking at the opposition and thinking to themselves "Ah, sure it doesn't matter, we've won loads of them already."? Are they any less disappointed than a beaten weaker county would be? So don't kid yourself that provincials and All-Irelands mean less to stronger counties than to weaker counties.

The only way the chances could be even at the start of the year is if every single team was at the exact same standard, which obviously can never be the case. Having the same amount of matches doesn't necessarily even it out. A team has to be good enough to win their matches. The usual suspects will still get to the latter stages. As it stands, the 4 weaker counties of Munster have less matches to win to be All-Ireland champions than say, a Leinster county, but they don't do it because they are not good enough. They have to improve their own level of ability first. It is the standard of those teams, not the structures, that are holding them back.

Even the Champions League doesn't really have the same amount of games, because you have all the qualifying stages that are already starting, while the big guns are not playing for months yet. It is similar with the FA Cup, where the big guns enter at the 3rd round, and even that isn't the 3rd round for some teams that will have got that far, as there are matches prior to the first round for the minnows.

The Championship may be stale, but this forum livens up every year at this time, and the crowds go in large numbers. The championship structure threads are regular here, and soon the demands for tickets threads and the how the distribution system is unfair threads and so on will pop up with more regularity too, showing that there is a very high level of interest. It may be stale, but people still want to get a taste of it and they love it. With all the flaws people say there is, they still come out in force to support their county.

The Lost Sheep

Flukey wrote: »

Thinking that the provincial championships are becoming worthless is falling into that mindset that just measures the total amount a county has, and not looking at it in the present time. If you are a Kerry footballer or a Kilkenny hurler, winning that first provincial medal is huge. The fact that players from their counties have been winning them for decades has no value to them. If that were the case, Kilkenny, Kerry and others would pull out because they've won it so often and it no longer means anything to them. Try telling that to Brian Cody. Kilkenny have lots of All-Irelands, but in the history of the GAA Kilkenny have never won the 2014 All-Ireland Hurling Championship, and if they don't do it this year, they never will. That is the mindset they have. Look at a stronger county on the day they lose a provincial or All-Ireland just after the final whistle. Are they all there looking at the opposition and thinking to themselves "Ah, sure it doesn't matter, we've won loads of them already."? Are they any less disappointed than a beaten weaker county would be? So don't kid yourself that provincials and All-Irelands mean less to stronger counties than to weaker counties.

The only way the chances could be even at the start of the year is if every single team was at the exact same standard, which obviously can never be the case. Having the same amount of matches doesn't necessarily even it out. A team has to be good enough to win their matches. The usual suspects will still get to the latter stages. As it stands, the 4 weaker counties of Munster have less matches to win to be All-Ireland champions than say, a Leinster county, but they don't do it because they are not good enough. They have to improve their own level of ability first. It is the standard of those teams, not the structures, that are holding them back.

Even the Champions League doesn't really have the same amount of games, because you have all the qualifying stages that are already starting, while the big guns are not playing for months yet. It is similar with the FA Cup, where the big guns enter at the 3rd round, and even that isn't the 3rd round for some teams that will have got that far, as there are matches prior to the first round for the minnows.

The Championship may be stale, but this forum livens up every year at this time, and the crowds go in large numbers. The championship structure threads are regular here, and soon the demands for tickets threads and the how the distribution system is unfair threads and so on will pop up with more regularity too, showing that there is a very high level of interest. It may be stale, but people still want to get a taste of it and they love it. With all the flaws people say there is, they still come out in force to support their county.

An even shot at winning not the teams being even. While you will just say in reply to this why don't they just improve then but the Munster championship in football has 2 division 1 sides and 4 sides that hover between division 3 and 4. The 2 division 1 sides have 1/2 games to play to get to the last 12. Many Sides in Leinster/Ulster don't really have that luxury.
Yes your point about the forum livening up and crowds in large numbers stands but that doesn't mean the championship doesn't need reform. Numbers watching the Heineken Cup in rugby both live at games and on tv were increasing year on year yet that didn't mean the competition didn't need changes to its structure.
On the champions league im talking about competition proper not the qualifying stages where few sides come out to win/compete at top end of the competition.
Everyone starts the same level in FA Cup. All premiership sides enter in round 3. In the football championship the way sides enter the fold is completely uneven.

Ceist_Beag

I'm not saying that change isn't needed but I really don't agree with those saying the provincial championships should be interfered with. The Ulster Championship in football (and I'm sure the Munster Championship in hurling) is far from stale, it's a brilliant competition. There is no way any of the Ulster counties would allow it to be changed, and nor should they. Likewise, although people will say the Connacht Championship is poor, try taking away the opportunity from the likes of Sligo (winners in 2007) or Roscommon (winners in 2010) - I'm sure they value those medals quite highly.

savannahkat

Start giving a few points handicap and lets see the fun. Before Kilkenny played Offaly this year if Offaly had been given a 10 point start then the fun would have been something. Let it only apply though to first round games only. Of course it will never happen but if you want teams to start off on the same level or as near it as possible why not.

thelad95

savannahkat wrote: »

Start giving a few points handicap and lets see the fun. Before Kilkenny played Offaly this year if Offaly had been given a 10 point start then the fun would have been something. Let it only apply though to first round games only. Of course it will never happen but if you want teams to start off on the same level or as near it as possible why not.

If that handicap was in place, it would have been eradicated within 22 minutes when Kilkenny went 12 points up with their second goal.

Teams are never going to be on the same level. No matter what the format of the championship, Offaly are still sh*te but think about this. Dublin, Mayo and Kerry were able to jog to the quarter finals without ever getting into first gear in any match they've played so far. In comparison, the Ulster champions have to play up to 4 fiercely competitive games to get to the quarter finals. Anyone who thinks everyone starts off an equal footing is a delusional romantic traditionalist. The game for all intents and purposes may as well be professional with the way teams train yet some people want to maintain a championship structure that was decided on a whim in a rural hotel 130 years ago?

randd1

I think that the structure needs to change in hurling definitely.

The excitement of the last two years has been unbelievable, it really is a fantastic time to be a hurling fan. The sheer unpredictability of it is amazing, the games have been great ad there have been ups and downs for every county.

However, there are some problems.

The lopsided provincial setup with twice as many teams in one side of the draw than the other. The qualifier group which means the largest province (Leinster) has to start several weeks later than it needs to. The fact that provincial champions have a 5/6 week break between games and their opponents don't. There being actually more qualifier games than provincial ones (whats the point of having provinces then?).

I don't know what to do to be honest, but I think its a bit of a sad situation that lads are training for 6 months, and unless they have a bit of luck they'll probably get two games in the championship.

The likes of Clare and Wexford have dramatically improved the last two years because of getting more games to develop players. Ditto Cork and Dublin last year, and Limerick the year before.
Kilkenny and Tipp have been shown to be vulnerable after playing games more frequently, Galway too.
Laois have shown they need games against better sides to improve, and the same would be needed for Offaly (which for all the talk of them being useless, they've had some fierce misfortune with the draws in recent years).
Waterford are a young side, they need time to develop too. Should they be waiting a few years to get 5/6 championship games to do so? Who does that benefit?

I think maybe scrapping the provincial system for a start would be a good idea. Maybe have the provincial system go to a cup competition, replacing the pre-season tournaments, and have it going throughout the league until the summer.

Base the Championship on a league/knockout format, with each side guaranteed a minimum of 5 games.

Unlikely to ever happen of course, the Munster championship is sacrosanct and will never be sacrificed for the good of hurling, while the GAA will never be so radical in its approach to change.

There's not that awful lot wrong with hurling, but the provincial system is hampering its full potential and the potential for teams to develop into top sides with AI winning potential (as we've seen with Clare, Cork, Wexford and Dublin in the last two years) in a big way, especially seeing as as there are only 14 teams in it at the highest level.

Al Monds

I'm in favour of all the structures.
It does not have to be only one option.
Each could be used in a 2,3 or 4 year cycle.