Air Algérie flight missing

the_monkey

jebus, im glad i didn't know this when I flew to South Africa, so if it's all stormy down around the equator what do they do ?

fly through and hope for the best ??

ProfessorPlum

the_monkey wrote: »

jebus, im glad i didn't know this when I flew to South Africa, so if it's all stormy down around the equator what do they do ?

fly through and hope for the best ??

Have a bloody good radar to see the big **** that must be avoided, and bring heaps of fuel so you can divert around it. Nobody's flying through that really big stuff. Not on purpose anyway.

Lapin

the_monkey wrote: »

jebus, im glad i didn't know this when I flew to South Africa, so if it's all stormy down around the equator what do they do ?

fly through and hope for the best ??

On a flight from Europe to South Africa the aircraft would be at an altitude well above the storms at the equator and flying over them rather than through them.

the_monkey

Over the congo we were going through a constantly bumpy area with lightning flashing outside for about 1 hour .

I was a nervous wreck.

- I guess the storms were below us ..

ProfessorPlum

Lapin wrote: »

On a flight from Europe to South Africa the aircraft would be at an altitude well above the storms at the equator and flying over them rather than through them.

Some of those storms can get pretty big. Flying over a biggie isn't always the best way to avoid it, and many aircraft won't have the service ceiling to be able to overfly safely.
Fill the tanks


Edit:

http://weather.noaa.gov/pub/fax/PGRE05.PNG

here's the sig wx chart for today, showing isolated embedded CB's upto FL450. There's no going over that (unless you're in something non commercial shall we say). Provided you have a decent weather radar, you'll find a way through, but if you don't, and you're IMC (i.e. in cloud), you're flying blind into all kinds of misery.

Jack1985

Note: This is on final approach - Doesn't get much more challenging.

arubex

dealhunter1985 wrote: »

Are planes not designed to withstand thunderstorms?

Not really - even the Electra that NOAA used to fly directly into hurricanes would turn-tail if they started to encounter vertical convection. Very easy to exceed the structural limits in those cases.

Red Nissan

the_monkey wrote: »

You sure about that ?
Planes are always flying through storms - usually it's just turbulence that is encountered

Bring this query to the weather forum, there you will get detailed information where and aircraft flying in these particular storms can experience violent updrafts, as in a tornado and violent downdrafts it can make even storm proof interceptors unflyable, and would toss any commercial around easily snapping off its wings.

kippy

I can't recall a worse 7/8 days for the airline industry if I am being honest - on reflection there have been very bad days but its been consistent for the past few days.
3 hull losses, hundreds of people dead and various (as yet unknown/confirmed) reasons for each one.
RIP to all who have passed away in these disasters and I hope the casuses of all three can be asertained and some learning gained from them.

Jack1985

kippy wrote: »

I can't recall a worse 7/8 days for the airline industry if I am being honest.
3 hull losses, hundreds of people dead and various (as yet unknown/confirmed) reasons for each one.
RIP to all who have passed away in these disasters and I hope the casuses of all three can be asertained and some learning gained from them.

Agree, extremely bad week and year. And If I'm honest, one of the worst years for International relations since the Cold War.

billie1b

French officials have ordered French fighter jets based in the region to commence search operations

Saint Sonner

How do you know its definitely crashed? I can't find it on any of the news sources.

Edsonbarboza

Saint Sonner wrote: »

How do you know its definitely crashed? I can't find it on any of the news sources.

Surely if it landed safely anywhere hours ago news would have got back that everything was fine,id say its fairly certain its perished.

Saint Sonner

Yes I was thinking that too but was there not someone on here earlier who said it had crashed and gave a location???

Saint Sonner

Jack1985 wrote: »

Updated figures, 112 passengers + 4 crew (116) - Aircraft was flying through violent thunderstorms when it deviated to avoid and contact was lost. Air Algerie has just confirmed the aircraft crashed in Niger.

Heres the one I'm talking about

Jack1985

Saint Sonner wrote: »

Heres the one I'm talking about

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statuses/492269614827442177

and gave a location???

*Last known. I hardly know its exact location.

billie1b

They dont know or cant confirm it but the aircraft will be out of fuel by now, the French Mirage F1 jets are starting at the aircrafts cruising altitude as they are sure it was at cruising altitude when comms were lost.

They are also saying there were at least 6 hijacks in that region in the last couple if years and this coukd also be a possibility.

I'm reading it on the french news sites

Jack1985

Algerian aviation official just confirmed aircraft has crashed.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0724/632783-air-algerie/

MuffinsDa

Jack1985 wrote: »

Algerian aviation official just confirmed aircraft has crashed.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0724/632783-air-algerie/

from BBC:

13:01: Simon Proud, aviation safety blogger, tweets: Minimum recorded temperature was -75C, meaning clouds up to ~49,500ft. Far above cruising altitude. @eumetsat @thatjohn @RAeSTimR

Bsal

Looking at the SIGWX chart for the time it has occasional CB with tops upto FL450 in the general area the aircraft was flying through. There is no way an MD83 is going over the top of that they normally cruise around FL330.

Jack1985

Anyone know what's the fuel freezing temperature? Read it was between -40 and -47 for Jet-A?

Sully

Jack1985 wrote: »

Algerian aviation official just confirmed aircraft has crashed.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0724/632783-air-algerie/

I saw that and wondered how there so certain without finding any wreckage?

ProfessorPlum

Jack1985 wrote: »

Anyone know what's the fuel freezing temperature? Read it was between -40 and -47 for Jet-A?

Jet A is -40 and Jet A1 is -47C. Don't know what they fill up with down there, might even be something more wide cut.

Edit: Also they were only 50 minutes into their flight, way too soon to be running into fuel freezing problems

Jack1985

Sully wrote: »

I saw that and wondered how there so certain without finding any wreckage?

Good point, usually we have pictures first then confirmation.

Jet A is -40 and Jet A1 is -47C. Don't know what they fill up with down there, might even be something more wide cut.

I've seen temperatures (SAT) -59 on occasion, just wondering at what point do you start looking for warmer air? Above -70? Or are you monitoring that the TAT doesn't drop below -40?

ProfessorPlum

Jack1985 wrote: »

Good point, usually we have pictures first then confirmation.



I've seen temperatures (SAT) -59 on occasion, just wondering at what point do you start looking for warmer air? Above -70? Or are you monitoring that the TAT doesn't drop below -40?

You're more looking at the fuel temps in the tanks. The fuel is 'warm' when it's put in, and it takes many hours at altitude for it to get to anywhere near freezing. You only need to start looking for warmer air if the fuel gets close to freezing.

Jack1985

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

You're more looking at the fuel temps in the tanks. The fuel is 'warm' when it's put in, and it takes many hours at altitude for it to get to anywhere near freezing. You only need to start looking for warmer air if the fuel gets close to freezing.

Cheers, bit of reading on the subject for me!

Mark..

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

You're more looking at the fuel temps in the tanks. The fuel is 'warm' when it's put in, and it takes many hours at altitude for it to get to anywhere near freezing. You only need to start looking for warmer air if the fuel gets close to freezing.

The tanks have Fuel Cooled oil coolers in them or mounted on the engines to cool IDG's ETC, so basically the fuel cools the engine oil running through the cooler and the heat from the engine oil heats the fuel and is returned back to the tank to keep it at a safe temp. also the jet pumps will heat the fuel

Irish Steve

Jack1985 wrote: »

Cheers, bit of reading on the subject for me!

You will find a lot of relevant information on the subject of fuel freezing in the UK AAIB reports into the crash of BA G-YMMM at Heathrow, it can be a complex subject, and as has been seen with this accident, has the ability to bring the aircraft down.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/archive/heathrow_17_january_2008/accident_to_boeing_777_236__g_ymmm__at_heathrow_airport_on_17_january_2008___initial_report_update.cfm

Mark..

Irish Steve wrote: »

You will find a lot of relevant information on the subject of fuel freezing in the UK AAIB reports into the crash of BA G-YMMM at Heathrow, it can be a complex subject, and as has been seen with this accident, has the ability to bring the aircraft down.

That crash was from fuel contaminated with water.

ProfessorPlum

Here's a little snippet from Airbus:


Fuel freeze refers to the formation of wax crystals suspended in the fuel, which can accumulate when fuel temperature is below the freeze point (-47 °C for jet A1) and can prevent proper fuel feed to the engines.
During normal operations, fuel temperature rarely decreases to the point that it becomes limiting. However, extended cruise operations increase the potential for fuel temperatures to reach the freeze point. Fuel temperature will slowly reduce towards TAT. The rate of cooling of fuel can be expected to be in the order of 3 °C per hour with a maximum of 12 °C per hour in the most extreme conditions.
If fuel temperature approaches the minimum allowed, consideration should be given to achieving a higher TAT:

Descending or diverting to a warmer air mass may be considered. Below the tropopause, a 4000 ft descent gives a 7 °C increase in TAT. In severe cases, a descent to as low as 25000 ft may be required.

Increasing Mach number will also increase TAT. An increase of 0.01 M produces approximately 0.7 °C increase in TAT.
In either case, up to one hour may be required for fuel temperature to stabilise. The crew should consider the fuel penalty associated with either of these actions.

ProfessorPlum

Mark.. wrote: »

The tanks have Fuel Cooled oil coolers in them or mounted on the engines to cool IDG's ETC, so basically the fuel cools the engine oil running through the cooler and the heat from the engine oil heats the fuel and is returned back to the tank to keep it at a safe temp. also the jet pumps will heat the fuel

Fuel freezing on longer flights is still a concern. There's only a little oil and a whole lot of cold fuel.

Irish Steve

Mark.. wrote: »

That crash was from fuel contaminated with water.

Please read the reports.

It was caused by ICE that had built up in the fuel pipelines blocking the screens on the inlet to the fuel heaters and impeding the flow of fuel to the engines. The tests on the fuel showed that the water content of the fuel was NOT excessive, ALL Jet fuel has some water in it, it was NOT contaminated when checked against the expected standards for Jet fuel.

Lapin

Sky News still image of aircraft type looks like it was taken at Dublin Airport.

Thrill

2 French fighter jets located wreckage of Air Algerie flight in Mali, French defense ministry tells Fox News


French defense ministry tells Fox News: Wreckage of Air Algerie jet was found Crashed In Tilemsi, Mali 70 Miles from Gao, Mali.

Air Algerie plane found in "very inaccessible desert area"


.

Mark..

Irish Steve wrote: »

Please read the reports.

It was caused by ICE that had built up in the fuel pipelines blocking the screens on the inlet to the fuel heaters and impeding the flow of fuel to the engines. The tests on the fuel showed that the water content of the fuel was NOT excessive, ALL Jet fuel has some water in it, it was NOT contaminated when checked against the expected standards for Jet fuel.

your correct!

Saint Sonner

Fidel Castros niece was onboard.

PukkaStukka

Lapin wrote: »

Sky News still image of aircraft type looks like it was taken at Dublin Airport.

That aircraft was recorded as visiting Dublin two months ago

boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90422696&postcount=3912

P_1

Thrill wrote: »

2 French fighter jets located wreckage of Air Algerie flight in Mali, French defense ministry tells Fox News


French defense ministry tells Fox News: Wreckage of Air Algerie jet was found Crashed In Tilemsi, Mali 70 Miles from Gao, Mali.

Air Algerie plane found in "very inaccessible desert area"


.

Sadly little chance of any survivors in that case you'd have to think. My initial thoughts were that it would have gone down somewhere in the Sahara given how it seemed to have disappeared.

Thrill

Saint Sonner wrote: »

Fidel Castros niece was onboard.

Its been confirmed that she wasn't.

NBC News reporter says she saw Mariela Castro in Havana this morning. NOT on crashed airliner.

"I'm alive and well, happy and healthy," Mariela Castro tells TeleSUR

Sully

BBC Reporting Aircraft has NOT been found. There still searching.

Thrill

Conflicting reports.

French Foreign Minister says AH5017 is still missing and has "probably" crashed - Reuters

Its possible he's just waiting for official confirmation, then again...

Dutch forces in Mali: Though wreckage has not been found yet, plane is believed to be down between Gao and Tessalit

Jack1985

Thrill wrote: »

Its been confirmed that she wasn't.

I think you just closed off a looming conspiracy on this thread, with much gratitude thank you. It always amasses me how the media when an airliner goes down try to find an "important passenger" - everyone is equally important, no life is less significant - MH17 proved that only last week.

Dial Hard

Jack1985 wrote: »

I think you just closed off a looming conspiracy on this thread, with much gratitude thank you. It always amasses me how the media when an airliner goes down try to find an "important passenger" - everyone is equally important, no life is less significant - MH17 proved that only last week.

And if they can't find a suitably "important" passenger, they'll focus on how many infants were onboard. Drives me mad. A plane crash is a tragic enough event without trying to make it into pity porn.

roundymac

It sells and as readers and viewers I suppose we are to blame. Yes it is infuriating but looking at it from a reporters point of view it's probably "mana from heaven".

pfurey101

Dial Hard wrote: »

And if they can't find a suitably "important" passenger, they'll focus on how many infants were onboard. Drives me mad. A plane crash is a tragic enough event without trying to make it into pity porn.

The spanners want to create and be emmotionally involved in the news rather than just reporting it. And its getting worse..........:(

They will be looking for actors next rather than journalists.

kona

Isnt that type of aircraft design is prone to deep stall? Amongst other issues?

Thrill

Mali's president says wreckage of Air Algerie flight has been spotted between northern towns of Aguelhoc and Kidal. Reuters

fr336

roundymac wrote: »

It sells and as readers and viewers I suppose we are to blame. Yes it is infuriating but looking at it from a reporters point of view it's probably "mana from heaven".

'We' are all very different people. Personally I think way too many people just suck up whatever they're giving and told "well you want it don't you"

Irish Steve

kona wrote: »

Isnt that type of aircraft design is prone to deep stall? Amongst other issues?

Any T tail aircraft, (ATR, MD8 Family, BAE 146, VC10, BAC 1-11, DC9, Trident) is vulnerable to deep stall, and the issue is well known, so the regulatory authorities require very clear and specific protection systems that go a long way to preventing or averting deep stall issues, so while in theory it's a possible cause, it's very unlikely in this case, the most probably scenario at present is that the aircraft ended up in storm conditions that exceeded the stress limits of the airframe.

kona

Irish Steve wrote: »

Any T tail aircraft, (ATR, MD8 Family, BAE 146, VC10, BAC 1-11, DC9, Trident) is vulnerable to deep stall, and the issue is well known, so the regulatory authorities require very clear and specific protection systems that go a long way to preventing or averting deep stall issues, so while in theory it's a possible cause, it's very unlikely in this case, the most probably scenario at present is that the aircraft ended up in storm conditions that exceeded the stress limits of the airframe.

And don't T tails have issues with over stressing the rear fuselage due to all the weight back there?
E.G elevator jack screw.