safely reduce body fat

Bruno26

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Advertising won't educate anyone.

And you don't necessarily have to read books on it either.

In the absence of knowing what is right people are influenced by advertising , e.g. Cereal.

It helps- Better to read than not to.

generic2012

Or flashy book covers that appeal to peoples' animalistic ingrained desires to eat fat and meat as they were needed for survival and where hard to get millennia ago, but of course people on this website wouldn't be dumb enough to fall for that type of advertising...

Alf Veedersane

Bruno26 wrote: »

In the absence of knowing what is right people are influenced by advertising , e.g. Cereal.

It helps- Better to read than not to.

There's an abundance of material out there with no agenda behind the information given.

Also, a company that processes and sells cereal is different to a company that sells meat. Why would any single company invest in advertising for real food?

Bruno26

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

There's an abundance of material out there with no agenda behind the information given.

Also, a company that processes and sells cereal is different to a company that sells meat. Why would any single company invest in advertising for real food?

Point me in the direction of that material with no agenda please.


That's obvious to make money.

Butchers advertise, albeit at a local level.

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

Or flashy book covers that appeal to peoples' animalistic ingrained desires to eat fat and meat as they were needed for survival and where hard to get millennia ago, but of course people on this website wouldn't be dumb enough to fall for that type of advertising...

Don't judge a book by its flashy cover.

You need fat and protein to survive. You don't need carbohydrate to survive.

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

Point me in the direction of that material with no agenda please.

http://www.cochrane.org/about-us

From the page that you probably won't read:
Who we are

Cochrane is a global independent network of health practitioners, researchers, patient advocates and others, responding to the challenge of making the vast amounts of evidence generated through research useful for informing decisions about health. We are a not-for-profit organisation with collaborators from over 120 countries working together to produce credible, accessible health information that is free from commercial sponsorship and other conflicts of interest.

Bruno26 wrote: »

Butchers advertise, albeit at a local level.

There's two butchers beside me that say they never have and never will advertise, and as you know, Bruno, the exception proves the rule. I also read about it in book too, so there.

Alf Veedersane

Bruno26 wrote: »

Butchers advertise, albeit at a local level.

Apples and oranges, though.

Or blueberries and blackberries, for you

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

Don't judge a book by its flashy cover.

You need fat and protein to survive. You don't need carbohydrate to survive.

You need glucose to survive. Fat, carbohydrate and protein can all be turned to glucose, your body will just use whatever it gets the most of or easiest to convert and turn that to glucose.

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

You need glucose to survive. Fat, carbohydrate and protein can all be turned to glucose, your body will just use whatever it gets the most of or easiest to convert and turn that to glucose.

Fat is the preferred source of fuel for the body.

Blacktie.

Bruno26 wrote: »

Fat is the preferred source of fuel for the body.

Gluconeogenesis

ford2600

generic2012 wrote: »

Or flashy book covers that appeal to peoples' animalistic ingrained desires to eat fat and meat as they were needed for survival and where hard to get millennia ago, but of course people on this website wouldn't be dumb enough to fall for that type of advertising...

Fair bit of truth in that.

It's a topic you never see discussed honestly on paleo.

I had opportunity to live and hunt with an African hunter gatherer tribe a few years back. What a miserable existence.

Catching wild animals which are afraid of you entails two things in particular
* a lot of disappointment
* a lot of walking/waiting

They know hunger very frequently.

I also rear beef animals and know quite a bit about mass produced pig/chicken meat(most of which isn't good reading).

Farm produced meat is so different to wild meat in terms of fat and also in how it is eaten. Wild meat being eaten immediately consequently being richer in minerals and probably glycogen as against dried and frozen farm meat.

Being the red neck I am I also shoot venison and occasionally rabbit, again fat content is no where near farm animals. Genetics play a part also I would think(try to fatten a friesan bullock and report back and then try it with any french breed) but their diet/activity/shelter are so vastly different as to invalidate a lot of paleo propositions.

On fruit, picking berries is one time consuming task, but in saying that I still have a kilo or two left from last autumn!

rocky

Bruno26 wrote: »

Don't judge a book by its flashy cover.

You need fat and protein to survive. You don't need carbohydrate to survive.

I want more than to survive, I want to thrive ...

Bruno26

rocky wrote: »

I want more than to survive, I want to thrive ...

As I said fat is the preferred fuel source. Eat enough of it and you will thrive far better than you've ever thrived before.

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

http://www.cochrane.org/about-us

From the page that you probably won't read:
Who we are

Cochrane is a global independent network of health practitioners, researchers, patient advocates and others, responding to the challenge of making the vast amounts of evidence generated through research useful for informing decisions about health. We are a not-for-profit organisation with collaborators from over 120 countries working together to produce credible, accessible health information that is free from commercial sponsorship and other conflicts of interest.




There's two butchers beside me that say they never have and never will advertise, and as you know, Bruno, the exception proves the rule. I also read about it in book too, so there.

I'd read it surely if you actually directed me to specific articles rather than an about us.

That's great for them- some do some don't.

Bruno26

ford2600 wrote: »

Fair bit of truth in that.

It's a topic you never see discussed honestly on paleo.

I had opportunity to live and hunt with an African hunter gatherer tribe a few years back. What a miserable existence.

Catching wild animals which are afraid of you entails two things in particular
* a lot of disappointment
* a lot of walking/waiting

They know hunger very frequently.

I also rear beef animals and know quite a bit about mass produced pig/chicken meat(most of which isn't good reading).

Farm produced meat is so different to wild meat in terms of fat and also in how it is eaten. Wild meat being eaten immediately consequently being richer in minerals and probably glycogen as against dried and frozen farm meat.

Being the red neck I am I also shoot venison and occasionally rabbit, again fat content is no where near farm animals. Genetics play a part also I would think(try to fatten a friesan bullock and report back and then try it with any french breed) but their diet/activity/shelter are so vastly different as to invalidate a lot of paleo propositions.

On fruit, picking berries is one time consuming task, but in saying that I still have a kilo or two left from last autumn!

Very interesting. What would be your rules on buying meat and from who?

ford2600

Bruno26 wrote: »

Very interesting. What would be your rules on buying meat and from who?

Just eat beef once a week and buy a mountain lamb from neighbour every year. Spread out over a year it's an occasional treat. The slow cooked(I mean slow, 12-16hrs at 90C) cheap cuts are delicious. Even mountain lamb does have huge fat content, you'd wonder how!

Eat venison and quite a bit of fish once it's not farmed(have wholesaler on my doorstep).

Eat a chicken maybe once a week.

A lot of my fat intake is olive(s) oil/avocado/coconut/nuts/eggs

If I change my training protein will have to come up so I'll revisit then.

Hard not to get good beef/lamb once butcher isn't a gangster. Chicken/pig given how it's reared isn't something I'd be basing my diet around

rocky

Bruno26 wrote: »

As I said fat is the preferred fuel source. Eat enough of it and you will thrive far better than you've ever thrived before.

It's not my preferred fuel source.

bilbot79

Is it not simply a case of eating less than you put out? Caloriewise

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

Fat is the preferred source of fuel for the body.

For walking and golf mostly, anything that requires any effort uses glucose. If your on a LC diet your body will (slowly and inefficiently) convert either fat or protein to glucose. You talk as if you don't no anything about physiology. Not saying you don't of course, as you say you do, it's just that you write about it like someone who doesn't have a notion and just repeats the same 3 or 4 statements (eat less than 150/100/50g of carbs, fat can't/doesn't make you fat, read a book by this nut job, you're so pedantic/you're clueless/another useless post etc etc...).

generic2012

bilbot79 wrote: »

Is it not simply a case of eating less than you put out? Caloriewise

Yes

Bruno26

ford2600 wrote: »

Just eat beef once a week and buy a mountain lamb from neighbour every year. Spread out over a year it's an occasional treat. The slow cooked(I mean slow, 12-16hrs at 90C) cheap cuts are delicious. Even mountain lamb does have huge fat content, you'd wonder how!

Eat venison and quite a bit of fish once it's not farmed(have wholesaler on my doorstep).

Eat a chicken maybe once a week.

A lot of my fat intake is olive(s) oil/avocado/coconut/nuts/eggs

If I change my training protein will have to come up so I'll revisit then.

Hard not to get good beef/lamb once butcher isn't a gangster. Chicken/pig given how it's reared isn't something I'd be basing my diet around

Thanks for all that info. Would you avoid bacon / rashers? Would you only buy chicken/ bacon from a good craft butcher?

Bruno26

rocky wrote: »

It's not my preferred fuel source.

You'd prefer it if you tried it.

Bruno26

bilbot79 wrote: »

Is it not simply a case of eating less than you put out? Caloriewise

No much more complex.

Are you going to have the same results overall if eating 2,500 calories of bread and sweets compared to 2500 calories from meat, fish, veg, dairy, nuts etc?

What do you think?

rocky

Bruno26 wrote: »

You'd prefer it if you tried it.

I probably eat higher fat than you already.

bboybaboy19

bilbot79 wrote: »

Is it not simply a case of eating less than you put out? Caloriewise

To lose weight solely yeah it is.

To lose fat specifically then no.

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

For walking and golf mostly, anything that requires any effort uses glucose. If your on a LC diet your body will (slowly and inefficiently) convert either fat or protein to glucose. You talk as if you don't no anything about physiology. Not saying you don't of course, as you say you do, it's just that you write about it like someone who doesn't have a notion and just repeats the same 3 or 4 statements (eat less than 150/100/50g of carbs, fat can't/doesn't make you fat, read a book by this nut job, you're so pedantic/you're clueless/another useless post etc etc...).

Actually for every activity. The body is very efficient at getting the required energy it needs from fat. Many endurance athletes eat hflc and many more are starting to eat this way. Many will take a small gel a few times during an event when they feel they need it. It's even breaking into football with the new Celtic manager. Depending on the intensity some carbs are required and will help. Then again people have eaten this way for hundreds if years. However there should be no need to fill yourself with carbs before the physical activity .

For someone who lets on they know everything there is to know about nutrition I'm surprised that you're so opposed to these views.

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

No much more complex.

Could you go into more detail for us unenlightened folk?

Bruno26

rocky wrote: »

I probably eat higher fat than you already.

Good for you. Then you have a fairly high fat diet.

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

Actually for every activity. The body is very efficient at getting the required energy it needs from fat. Many endurance athletes eat hflc and many more are starting to eat this way. Many will take a small gel a few times during an event when they feel they need it. It's even breaking into football with the new Celtic manager. Depending on the intensity some carbs are required and will help. Then again people have eaten this way for hundreds if years. However there should be no need to fill yourself with carbs before the physical activity .

For someone who lets on they know everything there is to know about nutrition I'm surprised that you're so opposed to these views.

Do you just ignore the fact that both fat and carbs are converted to glucose for strenuous activity, making the end product essentially the same? Except fat is slower cos it's far harder to convert.

Maybe some athletes do. Some people think the world is flat. The percentage of successful athletes that use HF/LC diets would be minuscule though. But you seem to be fond of using the exception to prove the rule though.

Essien

Tbh, I know fcuk all about what fuel the body prefers, but I will say that eating a higher fat diet than I'm used to has coincided with me being weaker than I've ever been since I began training.

I've been eating below 100g carbs for ages now, with almost no grain or sugar and my performance is rubbish compared to before, when I was eating heaps of the evil stuff.

It's not conclusive or anything since my calories are also pretty low and I'm just getting back into it after a couple of months off.

ford2600

Essien wrote: »

Tbh, I know fcuk all about what fuel the body prefers, but I will say that eating a higher fat diet than I'm used to has coincided with me being weaker than I've ever been since I began training.

I've been eating below 100g carbs for ages now, with almost no grain or sugar and my performance is rubbish compared to before, when I was eating heaps of the evil stuff.

It's not conclusive or anything since my calories are also pretty low and I'm just getting back into it after a couple of months off.

Change up, it doesn't suit you.

Your story is common

generic2012

Essien wrote: »

Tbh, I know fcuk all about what fuel the body prefers, but I will say that eating a higher fat diet than I'm used to has coincided with me being weaker than I've ever been since I began training.

I've been eating below 100g carbs for ages now, with almost no grain or sugar and my performance is rubbish compared to before, when I was eating heaps of the evil stuff.

It's not conclusive or anything since my calories are also pretty low and I'm just getting back into it after a couple of months off.

Carbs are used for the strenuous stuff. I basically go high carb low fat on days I train and high fat low carb on rest days, works very well for me. Lifting more weighing less.

It's a pity no one thinks the middle ground is cool...

Essien

generic2012 wrote: »

It's a pity no one thinks the middle ground is cool...

Middle ground is where it's at IMO.

I'll give it more time since me being weak could just as easily be due to low calories or time off training.

A carb/fat cycling diet sounds good.

generic2012

ecoli wrote: »

What about all Noakes research (I know you are a big fan of his work) regarding carb loading for endurance events lasting longer than 90 min and its effects on decreasing fatigue due to glycogen depletion?

He was drugged with a slice of bread, the carbs messed up his brain...

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

I basically go high fat low carb on rest days, works very well for me.
.

You've got to be joking?

Bruno26

Essien wrote: »

Tbh, I know fcuk all about what fuel the body prefers, but I will say that eating a higher fat diet than I'm used to has coincided with me being weaker than I've ever been since I began training.

I've been eating below 100g carbs for ages now, with almost no grain or sugar and my performance is rubbish compared to before, when I was eating heaps of the evil stuff.

It's not conclusive or anything since my calories are also pretty low and I'm just getting back into it after a couple of months off.

You need to eat more- way above the calories you think you need. You don't need to limit calories if you're eating so few carbs.

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

He was drugged with a slice of bread, the carbs messed up his brain...

They sure can. Check out Grain Brain!

MaceFace

There are some wild assumptions and inaccuracies in some of the posts here.

Before I continue, it's a good while since I looked at this....

It is true that the body *can* prefer fat as a fuel source, but not under normal conditions. That is not to say that it won't use fat as a fuel source normally, which of course it will, but the preference is always for glycogen/glucose.
If there is not enough glucose available to the body, it generally means your body has gone into a state of ketosis where it uses ketone bodies for energy. The brain can not function off these bodies though, so the small amount of carbs that you do take it will be used for that, and the body can convert protein/fats into glucose to power the brain, but not enough to power the body.

I hear so many people say negative things about a ketogenic diet but the problem is that your body needs to go into ketosis and if you are taking in 150g carbs a day as Bruno reckons is the magic number, you most likely will not get into ketosis. What will happen is that these carbs will be used as the primary energy source. Skirting down below this number and not fully going into ketosis will most likely make you feel terrible with little energy and your performance will suffer.

Personally, I've increased my lifts just as well with an extended carb intake < 30g day as I have with a high carb diet.

It is also important to make a distinction between low carb diet and being in ketosis. You can think of it is as being in it or not. If you are in it, your body looks towards fat first (ketone bodies). If you are not in it, it will look for glucose and possible drain your glycogen stores.

So, I see no possible benefit of a low carb diet for any type of athlete unless they are in a state of ketosis.
To suggest that endurance athletes are moving to low carb diets or Celtic Football Club will start putting their players on low carb diets is just not true. There are exceptions where individuals do this, but it is no where near what we would call mainstream.

I went through the whole keto is cool and low carb is the best way phase, but when you do it and do something else, you realise that there is no one size fits all. Most of the statements made about low/high carb is influenced by "the industry" and almost everything that is written about it is incomplete or inaccurate.

I also think people try to over complicate things, like the point that high carbs will spike blood glucose level, leading to an increase in Insulin levels which encourages the body to create more fat.
Just like the 3 meals vs 6 meals a day debate or 30g of protein can only be absorbed in one go.
People are always looking for the silver bullet but there ain't one.

ecoli

Bruno26 wrote: »

They sure can. Check out Grain Brain!

Have read it, have also read should check them out pretty interesting;

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa0804748
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2012/01/17/ajcn.111.026328.abstract
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0100652

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

You've got to be joking?

There's your issue with humour again....

what's do you mean?

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

Grain Brain!

Is it as good as Wheat Belly?
or Fat Head?

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

There's your issue with humour again....

what's do you mean?

You've been anti hflc since I started posting here. Now you say you eat hflc. So I presume you're taking the p**s.

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

Is it as good as Wheat Belly?
or Fat Head?

Yes just as good as wheat belly but obviously with a different focus. I haven't seen fathead.

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

You've been anti hflc since I started posting here. Now you say you eat hflc. So I presume you're taking the p**s.

I've been anti HFLC as the only method of weightloss and I've been anti cutting carbs out of your diet for no reason.

I've always been pro having a healthy relationship with food and pro evidence based advice and pro performance nutrition, none of which you have.

I employ calorie and macro cycling myself but it's too much for most peoples' goals, and provides extreme diminishing returns so I don't advise it to most posters, if any. But I enjoy it and have a healthy relationship with food so don't stress it too much, which some people couldn't do.

EDIT: tl;dr/Cliff notes - I'm nt a dietary zealot.

Essien

Bruno26 wrote: »

You need to eat more- way above the calories you think you need. You don't need to limit calories if you're eating so few carbs.

So I need to consume much more to achieve the same output?

That doesn't strike me as a trait of the bodies preferred fuel source, the exact opposite in fact.

Bruno26

Essien wrote: »

So I need to consume much more to achieve the same output?

That doesn't strike me as a trait of the bodies preferred fuel source, the exact opposite in fact.

You said you were feeling weak and eating low calorie. Eat more is an obvious solution.

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

I've been anti HFLC as the only method of weightloss and I've been anti cutting carbs out of your diet for no reason.

I've always been pro having a healthy relationship with food and pro evidence based advice and pro performance nutrition, none of which you have.

I employ calorie and macro cycling myself but it's too much for most peoples' goals, and provides extreme diminishing returns so I don't advise it to most posters, if any. But I enjoy it and have a healthy relationship with food so don't stress it too much, which some people couldn't do.

EDIT: tl;dr/Cliff notes - I'm nt a dietary zealot.

Very good . You must be constantly counting between the calorie and macro cycling.

Essien

Bruno26 wrote: »

You said you were feeling weak and eating low calorie. Eat more is an obvious solution.

But why would I need to eat way more? Surely my performance should be at least as good if not better now that I eat more of the bodies preferred fuel source?

Right now my calories are only marginally lower than they were a year or so ago but my strength/energy is drastically lower.

FWIW, I'm very much on the HFLC side of the fence where weight loss is concerned but I'm just pointing out that my energy under stress has suffered significantly.

That certainly shouldn't happen if I'm consuming more of what you say my body needs.

Is it that difficult to accept that it's not the be all and end all for everyone?

ford2600 pointed it out in his first and only reply to me. Why do you need to jump through so many hoops rather than just admitting you're wrong.

Bruno26

Essien wrote: »

But why would I need to eat way more? Surely my performance should be at least as good if not better now that I eat more of the bodies preferred fuel source?

Right now my calories are only marginally lower than they were a year or so ago but my strength/energy is drastically lower.

FWIW, I'm very much on the HFLC side of the fence where weight loss is concerned but I'm just pointing out that my energy under stress has suffered significantly.

That certainly shouldn't happen if I'm consuming more of what you say my body needs.

Is it that difficult to accept that it's not the be all and end all for everyone?

ford2600 pointed it out in his first and only reply to me. Why do you need to jump through so many hoops rather than just admitting you're wrong.

I'm not wrong.

Your body is obviously not using fat as fuel. Are you eating at least 70 % fat and less than 50 g carbs a day or have you ever? If you haven't then I doubt your body has ever used fat as fuel.

ecoli

Bruno26 wrote: »

I'm not wrong.

Your body is obviously not using fat as fuel. Are you eating at least 70 % fat and less than 50 g carbs a day or have you ever? If you haven't then I doubt your body has ever used fat as fuel.

Think there is a typo here should that not be 150g or is this another figure than your previous one? If so be interested to know the reasons for the difference and in what situation each applies?