safely reduce body fat

Bruno26

ford2600 wrote: »

@Bruno I know you mean well and genuinely believe what you are posting, but you can't apply a diet that has worked for you to an entire population. I doesn't suit a lot of people. It isn't a silver bullet.

Peter Attia is well know in in the HFLC world, as a medical doctor and elite endurance sea swimmer. Despite swimming 4-5hrs daily he was balloning in weight following a food pyrimad type diet. He was well on his way to being diabetic. By going HFLC his health improved remarkably, lost fat etc etc.

Attia is really bright and a relentless self experimenter who has gained as much as you from HFLC. What is his stance on obesity? He doesn't have an answer, but he is asking questions, loads of really interesting questions.

He is sitting down with guys, from universities all over USA with a huge variance in their outlook on obesity, asking question doing research and trying to solve what is a public health crisis. He is not stuck with some "new" dogma but looking for answers with people who think he is nuts.

Palmitoleic Acid is one interseting thing I've come across as a potential very early marker for the group of people that a high carb diet doen't suit. Seemingly it can be a marker way before insulin resistance is a problem. Might be a rabbit hole but we will never know unless we start asking questions.

On the Masai, I spent a week with them also. They are very lean. In Tanzania/Kenya they are a wealthy tribe because of their cattle, by our standards they are dirt poor and don't eat much of anything.

The diet staple in Tanzania is the banana, about 30 odd varieties. They use bananas for everything, beer, meat stew, breakfast etc etc. They also have lots of maize. Again they are not fat either

Peter Attia: The real point I want to make is this: Our bodies are very finely tuned with respect to what they store. What you eat matters a lot, but much less because of the actual caloric content of the food (there is probably not one of us who can titrate their daily intake to within 10 calories of a target intake). The reason what you eat matters is because of the hormonal impact food exerts over your body. The master hormone that regulates fat accumulation is insulin. Hence, the impact your food has on insulin levels is far more important than the number of calories contained within what you eat.

I reckon he knows what causes people to get fat based on the above.

Wow that must have been some experience. Was that recent- Any chance you met David Rushida? What did the Masai eat when you were there?

generic2012

This is a link to a quite apt analogy of brunos techniques -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

He makes a claim, with no evidence, and expects everyone to believe it. Without evidence sane people don't believe things, it's ridiculous. Unless you (Bruno) provide evidence that it is possible to eat a hypercaloric diet, made up of any combination of macronutrients (A hypercaloric diet made up of primarily fat and protein would be down your alley, but any ratio will do), and a mechanism by how it could work (as it would likely destroy centuries of theoretical physics and decades of biology), and not gain weight, it would be ridiculous for anyone to believe you.

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

Peter Attia: The real point I want to make is this: Our bodies are very finely tuned with respect to what they store. What you eat matters a lot, but much less because of the actual caloric content of the food (there is probably not one of us who can titrate their daily intake to within 10 calories of a target intake). The reason what you eat matters is because of the hormonal impact food exerts over your body. The master hormone that regulates fat accumulation is insulin. Hence, the impact your food has on insulin levels is far more important than the number of calories contained within what you eat.

What happened to nevermind hormones?

That defeats your argument? If hormones matter, and ASP is a hormone that stores dietary fat as body fat, then high fat diets will make you gain weight?

Bruno26

ecoli wrote: »

As ridiculous as this example is, see why people may have a hard time accepting it Bruno?

Opinions are fine but stating them as fact without any idea of why is a dangerous approach when advising vulnerable people

Irrelevant. Nothing dangerous. You know what, you would want to mad to take advice from a stranger on the internet.

ford2600

Attia "Is carbohydrate reduction or outright restriction “right” for everyone? I doubt it. Besides oxygen and water the list of “universal truths” for human health is pretty short.

ecoli

Bruno26 wrote: »

So there's no evidence of any group of people getting fat getting swine flu from eating mostly fat and protein eating chocolate

Forget about your calories and your hormonesCarbs and your sugars.

Solution: Limit the carb intake in overweight people start patients eating more chocolate to cure swine flu

Result: Weight issues solved Swine flu epidemic cured.

As ridiculous as this example is, see why people may have a hard time accepting it Bruno?

Opinions are fine but stating them as fact without any idea of why is a dangerous approach when advising vulnerable people

Restoring as was already quoted

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

What happened to nevermind hormones?

That defeats your argument? If hormones matter, and ASP is a hormone that stores dietary fat as body fat, then high fat diets will make you gain weight?

The point he's making which is lost on you is that is if you avoid carbs the less insulin is triggered. You don't get fat. Simple

ecoli

Bruno26 wrote: »

The point he's making which is lost on you is that is if you avoid carbs the less insulin is triggered. You don't get fat. Simple

I thought this was already shown to be not true?

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

The point he's making which is lost on you is that is if you avoid carbs the less insulin is triggered. You don't get fat. Simple

And you said hormones don't matter.

Do hormones affect weight gain, Bruno?

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

And you said hormones don't matter.

Do hormones affect weight gain, Bruno?

You are either joking or have taken nothing in if your asking that?

rocky

Bruno26 wrote: »

The point he's making which is lost on you is that is if you avoid carbs the less insulin is triggered. You don't get fat. Simple

Care to share the insulin index produced by:

- whey
- beef

?

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

You are either joking or have taken nothing in if your asking that?

Well you've said that hormones don't matter but insulin causes weight gain and insulin is a hormone so...

You say hormones don't matter. That means insulin has nothing to do with weight gain.

But then you say insulin causes weight gain. That means that hormones do matter. So that means you have to accept that ASP stores dietary fat as body fat.

You're inconsistent either way but pick - do hormones matter or not?

Bruno26

ecoli wrote: »

I thought this was already shown to be not true?

No it is true.

The more carbs ingested- the more blood glucose levels rise. Insulin is secreted by the pancreas. Insulin causes the glucose not used for energy to be stored by the liver and muscles as glycogen. Once the glycogen reserves are filled the excess glucose is stored as fat.

If the carb cannot be burned off through exercise it gets converted by the liver into fat and sent to our fat tissues for storage.

Insulin both transforms carbs / glucose into fat and then stored it by preventing it from bring used. The result is you get fat.

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

Well you've said that hormones don't matter but insulin causes weight gain and insulin is a hormone so...

You say hormones don't matter. That means insulin has nothing to do with weight gain.

But then you say insulin causes weight gain. That means that hormones do matter. So that means you have to accept that ASP stores dietary fat as body fat.

You're inconsistent either way but pick - do hormones matter or not?

Ye you've taken nothing in. Of course insulin matters. It's the key to everything I've been discussing.

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

Ye you've taken nothing in. Of course insulin matters. It's the key to everything I've been discussing.

So what say you about ASP.

Bruno26 wrote: »

No it is true.

The more carbs ingested- the more blood glucose levels rise. Insulin is secreted by the pancreas. Insulin causes the glucose not used for energy to be stored by the liver and muscles as glycogen. Once the glycogen reserves are filled the excess glucose is stored as fat.

If the carb cannot be burned off through exercise it gets converted by the liver into fat and sent to our fat tissues for storage.

Insulin both transforms carbs / glucose into fat and then stored it by preventing it from bring used. The result is you get fat.

If you swap insulin for ASP and carbs for fat it's practically the same. You're defeating your own argument.

be careful
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

rocky

Bruno26 wrote: »

Ye you've taken nothing in. Of course insulin matters. It's the key to everything I've been discussing.

and beef, fish and whey protein all produce more insulin than pasta.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf

ecoli

Bruno26 wrote: »

No it is true.

The more carbs ingested- the more blood glucose levels rise. Insulin is secreted by the pancreas. Insulin causes the glucose not used for energy to be stored by the liver and muscles as glycogen. Once the glycogen reserves are filled the excess glucose is stored as fat.

If the carb cannot be burned off through exercise it gets converted by the liver into fat and sent to our fat tissues for storage.

Insulin both transforms carbs / glucose into fat and then stored it by preventing it from bring used. The result is you get fat.

But ASP stimulates secretion of insulin in the absence of carbs?

How does Gluconeogenesis figure into your theory?

Bruno26

rocky wrote: »

Care to share the insulin index produced by:

- whey
- beef

?

unlike carbohydrates, purely protein foods not only result in increased insulin, but also cause your body to secrete glucagon. Glucagon is a hormone that opposes some of the potentially harmful effects of insulin. As a result, although high protein foods can cause a significant insulin release, they rarely have the same blood sugar crashing, hunger-inducing properties that high carbohydrate foods do.

rocky

I'm much hungrier 30 mins after a big steak than after a bowl of potatoes.

Bruno26

rocky wrote: »

I'm much hungrier 30 mins after a big steak than after a bowl of potatoes.

Not enough fat then

Bruno26

ecoli wrote: »

But ASP stimulates secretion of insulin in the absence of carbs?

How does Gluconeogenesis figure into your theory?

Not concerned with ASP. Controlling insulin is the key.

Yes a process of ketosis.

MaceFace

Bruno26 wrote: »

unlike carbohydrates, purely protein foods not only result in increased insulin, but also cause your body to secrete glucagon. Glucagon is a hormone that opposes some of the potentially harmful effects of insulin. As a result, although high protein foods can cause a significant insulin release, they rarely have the same blood sugar crashing, hunger-inducing properties that high carbohydrate foods do.

Here is an very good post from what I would consider the most informed person on HFLC diets.

Also, here is one of the many articles he has written on the subject

An interesting quote from this is:

Ok, this is probably the one that will cause the most controversy which is why I’m going to spend the most time on it. A constant and never-ending cry, and one that has recently come back to life due to some popular but misguided books, is that calories don’t count, or thermodynamics doesn’t apply to humans or other nonsense.

I also like this quote from his reply on the thread:

It's thier contention that

a. calories don't matter (claimed by Sears before he put everyone on a very low calorie diet)
b. insulin makes you fat (Taubes, etc) which is clearly idiotic. excess calories make you fat
c. Thermodynamics don't matter (Taubes, Manninen, Feinman, Atkins) because that's simply retarded

Bruno26

MaceFace wrote: »

I also like this quote from his reply on the thread:
Quote:

It's thier contention that

a. calories don't matter (claimed by Sears before he put everyone on a very low calorie diet)
b. insulin makes you fat (Taubes, etc) which is clearly idiotic. excess calories make you fat. quote]


To clarify again I've always been talking about carb intolerant people.


Lyle McDonald:

"If you’re not insulin sensitive and/or have high insulin secretion, a diet lower in carbs and higher in fat (don’t forget that protein can raise insulin as well) is a better choice. Assuming, again, 40% protein, a good starting place might be 40% protein, 20-30% carbs and 20-30% fat. A further shift to a near ketogenic (or cyclical ketogenic) diet may be necessary, 40% protein, 10-20% carbs and the remainder fat may be the most effective.

I suppose you could say he contradicts himself.

ecoli

Bruno26 wrote: »

Not concerned with ASP. Controlling insulin is the key.

Yes a process of ketosis.

Still not getting how you can ignore ASP when one of its prime functions is to secret insulin in the absence of carbs and then state that controlling insulin is the key in the same statement.

Also would the effects of Cortisol (i.e inihibiting utilization of glucose) not mean that this could actually contribute to weight gain?

Bruno26

Can anyone point out all the overweight people who eat mostly a fat and protein diet?

rocky

So you can ignore them? what about Jimmy Moore?

Bruno26

rocky wrote: »

So you can ignore them? what about Jimmy Moore?

I'm not ignoring them. It's just you don't know what you are talking about.


I think you are very confused. This guy lost a lot of weight and most importantly kept it off (but still has more weight to lose) by restricting carbs. Therefore he eats mostly fat and protein.

Read the following: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/about-2

Thank you for the excellent example of someone who eats mostly fat and protein. His recent book is called Keto Clarity.

The question again for you: name the people or groups of people who are overweight from eating mostly fat and protein with limited carbs.

rocky

Laura Dolson






For the real story on Jimmy Moore (not what he, who's invested into people believing his revisionism, wants you to believe, his livelihood depends on this):

http://carbsanity.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/jimmy-moore-unwavering-dishonesty-early.html
http://carbsanity.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/i-make-failed-low-carbers-famous.html
http://carbsanity.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Jimmy%20Moore%2FLivin%20la%20Vida%20Low%20Carb

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

The question again for you: name the people or groups of people who are overweight from eating mostly fat and protein with limited carbs.

You're going to have to explain why insulin storing fat from carbs (which is a gross simplification and half truth at best anyway) matters but ASP storing fat from fat doesn't matter first.

Bruno26

rocky wrote: »

Laura Dolson






For the real story on Jimmy Moore (not what he, who's invested into people believing his revisionism, wants you to believe, his livelihood depends on this):

http://carbsanity.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/jimmy-moore-unwavering-dishonesty-early.html
http://carbsanity.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/i-make-failed-low-carbers-famous.html
http://carbsanity.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Jimmy%20Moore%2FLivin%20la%20Vida%20Low%20Carb

Yes you're not just confused. Your completely clueless if you actually believe those people are fat because they eat mostly fat and protein.

Keep trying.

Essien

generic2012 wrote: »

You're going to have to explain why insulin storing fat from carbs (which is a gross simplification and half truth at best anyway) matters but ASP storing fat from fat doesn't matter first.

Eh, because magic?

Bro, do you even Tim Noakes?

rocky

Bruno26 wrote: »

This guy lost a lot of weight and most importantly kept it off (but still has more weight to lose) by restricting carbs.

Therefore he eats mostly fat and protein.

Thank you for the excellent example of someone who eats mostly fat and protein. His recent book is called Keto Clarity.

Bruno26 wrote: »

Yes you're not just confused. Your completely clueless if you actually believe those people are fat because they eat mostly fat and protein.

Keep trying.

O... K...

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

You're going to have to explain why insulin storing fat from carbs (which is a gross simplification and half truth at best anyway) matters but ASP storing fat from fat doesn't matter first.

Here you go. Enjoy.

http://slowburnfitness.com/fat-regulation-insulin-or-asp/

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

Here you go. Enjoy.

http://slowburnfitness.com/fat-regulation-insulin-or-asp/

I'm not reading that. Just tell me how you figure that insulin matters but ASP doesn't, you said you're well researched in them. If the answers in that article just paraphrase it.

TimeToShine

generic2012

TimeToShine wrote: »

11am? gulad!

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

I'm not reading that. Just tell me how you figure that insulin matters but ASP doesn't, you said you're well researched in them. If the answers in that article just paraphrase it.

I'm not reading it. I believe what I believe - nothing else is true. I know everything!

Show me the evidence that ASP and not carbs and insulin is the number one reason people get fat.

MaceFace

Bruno26 wrote: »

I'm not reading it. I believe what I believe - nothing else is true. I know everything!

Show me the evidence that ASP and not carbs and insulin is the number one reason people get fat.

Dude, I don't think anyone has claimed ASP is the number one reason for people being fat. From my reading, people are saying (which I agree with), it contributes to the production of fat.
That article you reference do NOT back up your statements that ASP is irrelevant.

How can you explain people who bulk on keto diets? I personally did and my bodyfat % went up as part of that.

daddy and daddy are fighting again i'm scared

Bruno26

MaceFace wrote: »

Dude, I don't think anyone has claimed ASP is the number one reason for people being fat. From my reading, people are saying (which I agree with), it contributes to the production of fat.
That article you reference do NOT back up your statements that ASP is irrelevant.

How can you explain people who bulk on keto diets? I personally did and my bodyfat % went up as part of that.

Once again I'm only referring to the average overweight person. ASP is relevant but not to this person I'm talking about.

ecoli

Bruno26 wrote: »

Once again I'm only referring to the average overweight person. ASP is relevant but not to this person I'm talking about.

But the OP in the thread is between 16-19% BF with high activity level? Or are you talking about Essien who never stated his BF composition?

MaceFace

Bruno26 wrote: »

Once again I'm only referring to the average overweight person. ASP is relevant but not to this person I'm talking about.

That seems to be your standard answer when you can't explain. I assume you mean "take anyone off the street who would be considered overweight".

How does the physiology differ between this Joe Soap who is considered overweight and the Joe Soap who is at an ideal weight?
If both are on a low carb diet, why does ASP only apply to one of them?

How can you explain why people live long term on keto diets and don't lose weight and indeed put on weight (my example)?

And if losing fat was as simple as eating under 100g of carbs a day, why is HFLC diets not the standard diet for bodybuilders, especially during while cutting?

Bruno26

MaceFace wrote: »

Dude, I don't think anyone has claimed ASP is the number one reason for people being fat.

How can you explain people who bulk on keto diets? I personally did and my bodyfat % went up as part of that.

They appear to be claiming it is equally if not more important than insulin. Yet they can't back this up with concrete evidence.

On a keto diet you do know you will get to a point where you will stop losing weight right?

So if you eat well on the keto diet and stay in ketosis what is going to happen - you are either going to stay the same weight or put on some weight / muscle if it is combined with weight training.

You may put on weight but you are not to going to become a fat person because of ASP as some appear to be claiming.

Alf Veedersane

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

They appear to be claiming it is equally if not more important than insulin. Yet they can't back this up with concrete evidence.

We are saying that ASP is the reason that you will gain weight from eating fat in a caloric surplus, nothing about which is more important. You're denying that you can gain weight on a high fat high protein diet even in a caloric surplus. The burden of proof is on you.

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

We are saying that ASP is the reason that you will gain weight from eating fat in a caloric surplus, nothing about which is more important. You're denying that you can gain weight on a high fat high protein diet even in a caloric surplus. The burden of proof is on you.

That's fine. I'm not denying it. If you reach the point where you can't lose any more weight on keto- then only two things can happen- stay the same or put on weight.

You are not going to get fat.

Overweight people on mostly fat and protein diets- where are they all?

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

That's fine. I'm not denying it. If you reach the point where you can't lose any more weight on keto- then only two things can happen- stay the same or put on weight.

You are not going to get fat.

Overweight people on mostly fat and protein diets- where are they all?

So you've changed your mind? You now say that you can put on fat on a 'keto' diet?

Or how do you put on weight without putting on fat? I hope your not suggesting you magically put on muscle?

Bruno26

generic2012 wrote: »

So you've changed your mind? You now say that you can put on fat on a 'keto' diet?

Or how do you put on weight without putting on fat? I hope your not suggesting you magically put on muscle?

Average overweight person does not need to be concerned with ASP.

They need to be concerned about carbohydrate intake. Simple. Stay on track.

generic2012

Bruno26 wrote: »

Average overweight person does not need to be concerned with ASP.

They need to be concerned about carbohydrate intake. Simple. Stay on track.

You're nuts. Good luck.

ecoli

Bruno26 wrote: »

Average overweight person does not need to be concerned with ASP.

They need to be concerned about carbohydrate intake. Simple. Stay on track.

Got you, rules of physiology only matter when you are not overweight. Thanks for clearing that up.