Pub staff in London

lufties

Maybe its me but has anyone else noticed how poor the service is in British pubs generally?

RoyMcC

Flip that around - the standard in Ireland, Dublin in particular, is very good. Most anyone can land barwork in the UK. I've yet to find a properly poured pint of Guinness outside Ireland.

irish_goat

RoyMcC wrote: »

I've yet to find a properly poured pint of Guinness outside Ireland.

That's mainly because the Diageo marketing team don't make as much of an effort in the UK.

Fluxfan

I think its because they don't give a sh1t. Repeat business isnt important.

nobody told me

irish_goat wrote: »

That's mainly because the Diageo marketing team don't make as much of an effort in the UK.

It's abloutely nothing to do with diageo. Irisg people will not accept slopped up pints of Guinness like they do in the uk

danotroy

nobody told me wrote: »

It's abloutely nothing to do with diageo. Irisg people will not accept slopped up pints of Guinness like they do in the uk

A marketing ploy if there ever was one. A proper way to pour a liquid into a glass. Come On.

lufties

danotroy wrote: »

A marketing ploy if there ever was one. A proper way to pour a liquid into a glass. Come On.

I think it came out recently that it was just a myth, kinda like believing in santa, tooth fairy, flying spagetti monster...In Ireland we value beliefs and superstitions over fact.

RoyMcC

But the fact is that you ARE presented with a perfect pint on most occasions in an Irish bar. (Ok I can't speak for the big beer palaces in Dublin, I'm too old for them ) In your average English bar the staff just can't handle it and end up scooping half of it into the slops tray before presenting it to you more in hope than anything.

I happily stick to Real (craft) Ale this side of the Irish Sea.

Santa Cruz

lufties wrote: »

Maybe its me but has anyone else noticed how poor the service is in British pubs generally?

It is all about the Irish attitude to drinking rather than the UK attitude of "going for a drink".
Irish bar staff have a great ability to remember rounds, watching the room to see when people would be due for refills so as to be sure that the customer will not be longer than five seconds without alcohol. In the UK they expect you to bring up your empty glass for a refill. And as for anyone asking for a half of lager I can't see that happening in Ireland.
The London bar staff are invariably a selection of part times, east europeans etc. with no vocation to the job

Michael D Not Higgins

What I hate is what I've seen in a few hotel bars where they have what looks like a Guinness tap and it turns out to be a shaker device to put a head on a can poured into a glass. Looks like this

Caught out a couple of times by that, but I've only seen it in hotels where they obviously wouldn't get through a keg without it being rotten.

who the fug

Problem is not the staff , problem is pub management companies with massive debt and no fugging clue about pubs.

Fysh

I've found that a lot of places in London, particularly central London where there's a lot of tourist churn, seem to make do with some frequently bad staff. Mind you, I imagine those jobs aren't particularly well-paid so I can't blame good/experienced staff for skipping them wherever possible.

I've found that there does seem to be a real issue with pub management companies over here. As far as I know most pubs in Ireland are freehouses whereas a majority of pubs in the UK are owned by a brewery or management company. It's the latter situation that causes problems - I know of one pub in Kilburn that, in protest at the actions of its management company, stopped serving any beer on tap and carried the bare minimum (and very very poor) selection of beer because they were being charged something like 5 times the market rate for what was being supplied - because their management company had figured that the pub was locked into an exclusive supply contract so such shenanigans would be a great way to increase profits. CamRA have been campaigning about this for a while, and as far as I know there's been a positive development in that there's supposed to be a regulator to monitor the actions of larger pub management companies.

Marcusm

Fysh wrote: »

I've found that a lot of places in London, particularly central London where there's a lot of tourist churn, seem to make do with some frequently bad staff. Mind you, I imagine those jobs aren't particularly well-paid so I can't blame good/experienced staff for skipping them wherever possible.

I've found that there does seem to be a real issue with pub management companies over here. As far as I know most pubs in Ireland are freehouses whereas a majority of pubs in the UK are owned by a brewery or management company. It's the latter situation that causes problems - I know of one pub in Kilburn that, in protest at the actions of its management company, stopped serving any beer on tap and carried the bare minimum (and very very poor) selection of beer because they were being charged something like 5 times the market rate for what was being supplied - because their management company had figured that the pub was locked into an exclusive supply contract so such shenanigans would be a great way to increase profits. CamRA have been campaigning about this for a while, and as far as I know there's been a positive development in that there's supposed to be a regulator to monitor the actions of larger pub management companies.

ON the ownership point, it works both ways. In Ireland, landlords need a lot of capital before they can even think about getting into business. Even buying up a dead rural licence to transfer would cost €250k or more. I've seen decent zone 1 pubs available for £30k key money which makes it possible for those with limited resources to get into the business.

Breweries rarely own pubs these days, from the late 90s onwards they were generally bought by financial groups - Nomura's Principal Finance Group was the progenitor. Most of these groups have subsequently been floated and are heavily indebted reflecting the relatively steady sources of income from beer sales and rents. In many cases these will substantially exceed the normal wholesale price of a keg but that is what the putative landlord needs to take into account. The restriction in choice of supplier is not usually a factor due to the Beer Orders but the requirement to buy a minimum number of specified brands can put significant restrictions on operating ability.

All is not rosy in Ireland either - realistcially there are only 2 draught beer suppliers which eliminates price competition. Why can Guinness brewed in Ireland be sold more cheaply in a London bar than a Dublin one?

Fysh

Marcusm wrote: »

ON the ownership point, it works both ways. In Ireland, landlords need a lot of capital before they can even think about getting into business. Even buying up a dead rural licence to transfer would cost €250k or more. I've seen decent zone 1 pubs available for £30k key money which makes it possible for those with limited resources to get into the business.

Breweries rarely own pubs these days, from the late 90s onwards they were generally bought by financial groups - Nomura's Principal Finance Group was the progenitor. Most of these groups have subsequently been floated and are heavily indebted reflecting the relatively steady sources of income from beer sales and rents. In many cases these will substantially exceed the normal wholesale price of a keg but that is what the putative landlord needs to take into account. The restriction in choice of supplier is not usually a factor due to the Beer Orders but the requirement to buy a minimum number of specified brands can put significant restrictions on operating ability.

All is not rosy in Ireland either - realistcially there are only 2 draught beer suppliers which eliminates price competition. Why can Guinness brewed in Ireland be sold more cheaply in a London bar than a Dublin one?

I don't have any illusions about Ireland being wonderful as far as pubs go, not least because of some of the abject stupidity and vindictive selfishness on the part of the Vintner's Federation. However, my general experience even dating back to my college days in the UK was that the decent pubs (where "decent" is an admittedly subjective and somewhat arbitrary placeholder for several criteria) tended to be freehouses rather than owned by either breweries or pubcos. By "decent" I mean something like "good staff, a reasonable selection of beers and ales across taps and bottles, reasonable prices, a good atmosphere and in good repair".

I don't think that someone being able to buy into the pub industry on the cheap is particularly a good thing if a necessary condition is that they are either required to run the pub poorly or lose money, and most of what I've seen on the subject says that the continued existence of the tie to the parent company is the root of the problem. For example, according to this article from last year, more than half of all pub landlords operating in tie-in agreements effectively earn less than minimum wage - which is hardly encouraging.

As an aside, go here for details on the Kilburn pub I mentioned. I can't find any details on how it eventually played out, but they seem to have resolved the dispute as they're back to serving beer on draught as well as in bottles.

who the fug

Could have bet money on it being Enterprise.


On the pub management side was in Edinburgh two weeks ago and was talking to the staff of a Taylor Walker pub , same complaints up there as in London

Fratton Fred

I used to drink in Prohibition on Bishopsgate fairly regularly and ended up teaching the Lithuanian barman how to pour Guinness. He would put it on the drip tray, flip the tap and walk off.

In fairness though, he served maybe 6 pints of Guinness a day, so it was never really an issue for him.

Fysh

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I used to drink in Prohibition on Bishopsgate fairly regularly and ended up teaching the Lithuanian barman how to pour Guinness. He would put it on the drip tray, flip the tap and walk off.

In fairness though, he served maybe 6 pints of Guinness a day, so it was never really an issue for him.

I think part of that general problem (which I've noticed with Guinness and Murphys on a few occasions) also stems from plenty of folks not realising there's a difference between Guinness and Guinness Extra Cold; with the latter being pushed as something that can be poured like ale or beer and without waiting for it to settle.

grandpart

who the fug wrote: »

Could have bet money on it being Enterprise.


On the pub management side was in Edinburgh two weeks ago and was talking to the staff of a Taylor Walker pub , same complaints up there as in London

Hmmm.. what complaints? laurie said everything is ticking great.

Fratton Fred

Fysh wrote: »

I think part of that general problem (which I've noticed with Guinness and Murphys on a few occasions) also stems from plenty of folks not realising there's a difference between Guinness and Guinness Extra Cold; with the latter being pushed as something that can be poured like ale or beer and without waiting for it to settle.

So can Guinness really. The whole pour, settle, pour malarkey is little more than marketing.

RoyMcC

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So can Guinness really. The whole pour, settle, pour malarkey is little more than marketing.

Can't agree there Fred. Landlords the length and breadth of the land would have found a quicker way of doing it by now if it were possible. (The ice-cold stuff is a bit different).