J4/5 (Social Rugby) Season 2014/2015

Hagz

What standard is J4/J5 rugby? I played rugby up till u21 level and then took a break so I have no experience of all this J business. Are we talking school of hard knocks level?

Eoin

Hagz wrote: »

What standard is J4/J5 rugby? I played rugby up till u21 level and then took a break so I have no experience of all this J business. Are we talking school of hard knocks level?

It can vary massively; you have guys who could easily slot into a J1 team and guys who are very new to rugby - often on the same team too. Think I've played against some teams with guys who are only a year or two out from playing AIL.

And then there are the clubs who just drop a team of seasoned players down a level or two so they can scoop up some silverware.

The Lost Sheep

Hagz wrote: »

What standard is J4/J5 rugby? I played rugby up till u21 level and then took a break so I have no experience of all this J business. Are we talking school of hard knocks level?

it will vary hugely from time of year to each club being different etc
Impossible to compare to school of hard knocks
How long of a break have you had? What level had you played?

The Lost Sheep

Hagz wrote: »

What standard is J4/J5 rugby? I played rugby up till u21 level and then took a break so I have no experience of all this J business. Are we talking school of hard knocks level?

it will vary hugely from time of year to each club being different etc
Impossible to compare to school of hard knocks
How long of a break have you had? What level had you played?

stephen_n

Hagz wrote: »

What standard is J4/J5 rugby? I played rugby up till u21 level and then took a break so I have no experience of all this J business. Are we talking school of hard knocks level?

Division 10 or 11 is very much social rugby, mix of new players and old but you won't get creamed! What area do you live in?

Hagz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

it will vary hugely from time of year to each club being different etc
Impossible to compare to school of hard knocks
How long of a break have you had? What level had you played?

Been out for almost two years. Only played one year of u21, mainly Pennant with a bit of Premier.

stephen_n wrote: »

Division 10 or 11 is very much social rugby, mix of new players and old but you won't get creamed! What area do you live in?

Stillorgan area so was thinking about joining them next season.

stephen_n

Hagz wrote: »

Been out for almost two years. Only played one year of u21, mainly Pennant with a bit of Premier.



Stillorgan area so was thinking about joining them next season.

Good club, I'm sure if you were playing at that level before you'd have no problem coping with junior rugby!

.ak

Hagz wrote: »

Stillorgan area so was thinking about joining them next season.

I played against their div11 team on Saturday. Good bunch of guys, had some pretty good first phase moves, scored a really neat try against us from a midfield scrum when the game was still in the balance.

Best facilities I've been too also. You weren't allowed wear your boots inside!!

Teferi

.ak wrote: »

You weren't allowed wear your boots inside!!

The reasoning is fair enough but it's still fierce irritating!

.ak

Teferi wrote: »

The reasoning is fair enough but it's still fierce irritating!

Thought it was particularly funny when we had a big hyped up pre game talk and then go to charge out onto the field only to have to stop and quietly put our boots back on.

gaius c

BBG wrote: »

Who is the local junior club in Maynooth? Being from Maynooth, I've always found that both Barnhall & North Kildare have competed for players from Maynooth & the Uni. (I'm playing with Barnhall) There's the rugby club within the college but they've had links to Barnhall long before the scholarship program and Barnhall becoming NUIM Barnhall. Did I miss another local junior club?

Any of the college scholarship players with Barnhall are playing senior club at J1(AIL 2A), J2 & u20s so why would they want to play Junior J1 and I mean that with all due respect to NK. Not many college players & no scholarship players outside of that in the junior section of BH.

Might not seem like many players to a big senior club but they were precious lifeblood to a small junior club and it's had a big affect on them as NUIM input has dwindled to 0 in recent years. The players who were not "scholarship" material for Barnhall were crucial to NK and the removal of the club development links with NUIM has meant that NK can't even get the players Barnhall have no interest in.

Back in the day, Barnhall only took the players who were genuine AIL prospects (which is fair enough) and NK had links with the college to give the others a chance to play with a club very close to the college while also supporting the college team. With the advent of the scholarship program, NK were "locked" out of the college and the uni don't really care because they have a few high profile players to post about in their newsletter, while the rest only play with the college team because Barnhall is too far to be making the trek for non-scholarship players. It's a waste really.

gaius c

EpiphoneSpecial wrote: »

15:00 Suttonians 22 vs 14 Terenure College RFC

Sounds like a close game, just to note I'm not playing on this team.
Just know what situation was for change in leagues.

They pulled up because they know the branch are unhappy about div 6 players in div 10.

stephen_n wrote: »

You sure about that? pretty sure when Belvo won the J4 league a couple of years ago they had no J3 team that season.

There's a difference between having no team in an upper league and having one, then conceding games while still fielding at the lower level.

stephen_n wrote: »

Yeah but they didn't concede, they are not in a higher league.

They are still in div 6 and the branch will probably not allow them to continue playing in div 10. I suspect that they will get slotted into div 7 instead.
http://www.leinsterrugbydomestic.com/league/88291/division6

.ak

gaius c wrote: »

They are still in div 6 and the branch will probably not allow them to continue playing in div 10. I suspect that they will get slotted into div 7 instead.
http://www.leinsterrugbydomestic.com/league/88291/division6

Interesting to note OB got point deductions for the very same thing in div6, so they must be upholding that rule.

Old Belvedere deducted 1 point as per Reg 22.14b: Old Belvedere Div 3 team conceded walkover on 27th September and lower team played.

The Lost Sheep

Hagz wrote: »

Been out for almost two years. Only played one year of u21, mainly Pennant with a bit of Premier.

Stillorgan area so was thinking about joining them next season.

You'll be fine. If you played any amount of premier 20s then you'll be quite comfortable at lower levels of metro rugby

gaius c

Stillorgan have 2 teams in Divs 9 & 11 if you want to play social rugby but they also have a team in div 3 if that proves too easy for you. Highest placed metro junior club in the metro leagues IIRC.

eoferrall

.ak wrote: »

Thought it was particularly funny when we had a big hyped up pre game talk and then go to charge out onto the field only to have to stop and quietly put our boots back on.

It's part of tour tactics!

where did you play on sat? I was there too - that might have been me you talked about with the midfield

EpiphoneSpecial

gaius c wrote: »

They pulled up because they know the branch are unhappy about div 6 players in div 10.

They are still in div 6 and the branch will probably not allow them to continue playing in div 10. I suspect that they will get slotted into div 7 instead.
http://www.leinsterrugbydomestic.com/league/88291/division6

The club are only fielding Leinster League 1sts and 2nds.. after that there was no Div6 team. So you can't deny those players the chance to play rugby if they can only join a Div10 team who don't train and contain several Vets and retired players from years ago.

I'm pretty sure they have dropped out of Div6 so maybe league just hasn't been updated yet. The LB wouldn't allow the Div10 team play if they hadn't dropped out officially.

eoferrall

gaius c wrote: »

Stillorgan have 2 teams in Divs 9 & 11 if you want to play social rugby but they also have a team in div 3 if that proves too easy for you. Highest placed metro junior club in the metro leagues IIRC.

Also have a bunch of new lads down so there is lots of activity and getting to know people so it is a good time to join as you will be in the majority.

We have had over 50 consistently training across the 3 teams and sometimes nearly 60.

.ak

eoferrall wrote: »

It's part of tour tactics!

where did you play on sat? I was there too - that might have been me you talked about with the midfield

I played left wing. Wasn't supposed to start cuz of my dodgy knee, haven't ran on it in weeks, turned up expecting to get 10 min off the bench but started instead....

I enjoyed the game, despite the loss. Thought both sides looked to move the ball well. First try was a bit of a kick in the teeth but a learning curve for me, got sucked into a ruck and should've stayed on the wing to defend, but it was a bit of a fluke that the ball got coughed up onto your side. Your right wing was a big lad but had a head start on me by the time I realized the ball turned over so I couldn't get to him in time.

Your last try in the midfield was good. Don't know if you identified it but our 12 went off injured with a cracked rib so we had a new player stepping in at 13, and he just got steam rolled by a bald lad - that you?

gaius c

EpiphoneSpecial wrote: »

The club are only fielding Leinster League 1sts and 2nds.. after that there was no Div6 team. So you can't deny those players the chance to play rugby if they can only join a Div10 team who don't train and contain several Vets and retired players from years ago.

I'm pretty sure they have dropped out of Div6 so maybe league just hasn't been updated yet. The LB wouldn't allow the Div10 team play if they hadn't dropped out officially.

The branch are taking the view that Suttonians were able to field in div 5 last year and that they are trying to regrade the team to div 10 by stealth when their request to do so over the summer was denied (I believe they asked for div 8 or 9). Asking to move down 5 divs is pulling the piss and seeing as they were able to beat Terenure while pulling their punches with this team, they will walk div 10.

The branch are especially protective of J5 rugby after Belvo managed to get their J4A winning team of a few years ago moved directly into J5 and put 100 points on the unfortunate Bective team that had to play them in the first game. Incidentally, the fixture chaos caused by the subsequent reshuffle led directly to the current league system of divs 1 to 11.

Only in exceptional circumstances will the branch agree to regrading teams and even there, it'll be a lot less than the original request. Parkmore wanted to go from 7 to 10 and they had to be happy with div 9 instead. And they only got this because they are a tiny single team club with no grounds.

eoferrall

.ak wrote: »

I played left wing. Wasn't supposed to start cuz of my dodgy knee, haven't ran on it in weeks, turned up expecting to get 10 min off the bench but started instead....

I enjoyed the game, despite the loss. Thought both sides looked to move the ball well. First try was a bit of a kick in the teeth but a learning curve for me, got sucked into a ruck and should've stayed on the wing to defend, but it was a bit of a fluke that the ball got coughed up onto your side. Your right wing was a big lad but had a head start on me by the time I realized the ball turned over so I couldn't get to him in time.

Your last try in the midfield was good. Don't know if you identified it but our 12 went off injured with a cracked rib so we had a new player stepping in at 13, and he just got steam rolled by a bald lad - that you?

yup that was me, came off the bench as was supposed to be subbing for our j4 which was cancelled and was unfair to drop the other lads. saw your back line re jig and had noticed a bit of hesitancy in defence so we just went and said lets go straight at them and see what happens.:pac:

Really enjoyable match though both teams playing with the spirit of the game and was close until that last try by us sealed it. was getting nervous when you pulled it back to 12-9

.ak

eoferrall wrote: »

yup that was me, came off the bench as was supposed to be subbing for our j4 which was cancelled and was unfair to drop the other lads. saw your back line re jig and had noticed a bit of hesitancy in defence so we just went and said lets go straight at them and see what happens.:pac:

Really enjoyable match though both teams playing with the spirit of the game and was close until that last try by us sealed it. was getting nervous when you pulled it back to 12-9

Yeah, I thought we were gonna go ahead at one stage, had a couple of nice half breaks around your line, almost got in myself but got smashed by a lurking forward sweeping! What kind of forward sweeps... One thing we talked about after the game was how good your line speed/defence was. We found it hard to string anything more than a couple of passes out because of your defence.

But that last try really put the nail in the coffin. Which was a pity but good for some of the younger/newer guys to experience.

EpiphoneSpecial

gaius c wrote: »

The branch are taking the view that Suttonians were able to field in div 5 last year and that they are trying to regrade the team to div 10 by stealth when their request to do so over the summer was denied (I believe they asked for div 8 or 9). Asking to move down 5 divs is pulling the piss and seeing as they were able to beat Terenure while pulling their punches with this team, they will walk div 10.

The branch are especially protective of J5 rugby after Belvo managed to get their J4A winning team of a few years ago moved directly into J5 and put 100 points on the unfortunate Bective team that had to play them in the first game. Incidentally, the fixture chaos caused by the subsequent reshuffle led directly to the current league system of divs 1 to 11.

Only in exceptional circumstances will the branch agree to regrading teams and even there, it'll be a lot less than the original request. Parkmore wanted to go from 7 to 10 and they had to be happy with div 9 instead. And they only got this because they are a tiny single team club with no grounds.

I played Div6 last year and it wasn't pleasant. At best we were a Div8 team.
Trinity beat us in the relegation playoff last season and still ended up in Div7. (Also they beat us 85-0 in normal league game that year too)
Seems LB let a lot of moving around go on.

"they are trying to regrade the team to div 10 by stealth"
Is that an official statement from LB?

I don't see how'd they let the current fixtures go ahead if they really thought that? Or why they wouldn't say 'you're playing in Div 8 or 9 or you aren't playing at all')

Eoin

The divisions weren't too well distributed at first - there were teams that both UCD and us (Seapoint) beat both home and away the previous year, yet ended up in the division above us. Hopefully the dust will settle after a season or two.

.ak

I think the idea with the new format is it'll take a few seasons before everyone finds their true grade. Think most people expected that. Don't see why teams should be re-graded at all.

.ak

Also, just as a mod note: No speculation of cheating unless the branches have proven otherwise.

eoferrall

.ak wrote: »

Yeah, I thought we were gonna go ahead at one stage, had a couple of nice half breaks around your line, almost got in myself but got smashed by a lurking forward sweeping! What kind of forward sweeps... One thing we talked about after the game was how good your line speed/defence was. We found it hard to string anything more than a couple of passes out because of your defence.

But that last try really put the nail in the coffin. Which was a pity but good for some of the younger/newer guys to experience.

That's good to hear, we've been working really hard on our defensive patterns this year in preseason and in our one warm up friendly we were dreadfully slow until mid way through second half when it kinda seemed to click.

hopefully the rest of the games will be as good and enjoyable. last season I found horrible due to inconsistency of teams and big breaks between matches (and injuries!!)

Eoin

.ak wrote: »

I think the idea with the new format is it'll take a few seasons before everyone finds their true grade. Think most people expected that. Don't see why teams should be re-graded at all.

It's a tricky one. It's not great for a team to ship a ton of points for a season or more until they find their level.

At least now there's a clear route for promotion and relegation though. It seemed to be a complete lottery a short while ago with teams seemingly put in leagues somewhat arbitrarily.

One thing I'd like to see is either splitting up the Winters(?) Cup, or introducing a plate for 1st round exits. I think there's just too many teams at very different levels in it.

salmocab

.ak wrote: »

I think the idea with the new format is it'll take a few seasons before everyone finds their true grade. Think most people expected that. Don't see why teams should be re-graded at all.

It will take a few seasons alright, although I do see that the branch should be allowed regrade teams under special circumstances. I like the new system its a lot more practical there was a brilliant Landsdowne team a few years ago that won 3 doubles in a row at j3 and had nowhere to go as they also had a very good j2 team. Once the new structure beds in it will prove successful although I think they should have gone with 2 up 2 down to move things along a bit better

Eoin

salmocab wrote: »

although I think they should have gone with 2 up 2 down to move things along a bit better

I agree, though that's actually happened in our league anyway. Or even 1st in the league gets promoted automatically, and 2nd enters a play-off with 2nd last in the league above.

salmocab

Eoin wrote: »

I agree, though that's actually happened in our league anyway. Or even 1st in the league gets promoted automatically, and 2nd enters a play-off with 2nd last in the league above.

Yeah happened us we lost the play off but went up anyway in some reshuffle but your sceario makes sense as getting 3rd place should be rewarded as this would make individual leagues more competitive

Eoin

salmocab wrote: »

Yeah happened us we lost the play off but went up anyway in some reshuffle but your sceario makes sense as getting 3rd place should be rewarded as this would make individual leagues more competitive

Thought we were shot of you for at least a season! Presume I'll be seeing you on Saturday?

3rd place wouldn't be rewarded in my suggestion, but it could at least help level things off quicker if 2 teams can go up and down.

gaius c

EpiphoneSpecial wrote: »

I played Div6 last year and it wasn't pleasant. At best we were a Div8 team.

You didn't. You played in div 5, which is still an extremely strong division (old j3) and five full divisions above div 10, which is a j5 league. Div 5 players could easily put lads from div 10 in hospital without even meaning to!

Trinity beat us in the relegation playoff last season and still ended up in Div7. (Also they beat us 85-0 in normal league game that year too)
Seems LB let a lot of moving around go on.

Both teams that finished bottom of div 5 have been moved into div 6. There's nothing sinister going on there.

"they are trying to regrade the team to div 10 by stealth"
Is that an official statement from LB?

Yep. Random guy on the internet is the mouthpiece of the Branch.
I'm merely well informed. "By stealth" is probably a bit harsh but the time to look for a change of league was during the summer, not after the leagues have already started.

I don't see how'd they let the current fixtures go ahead if they really thought that? Or why they wouldn't say 'you're playing in Div 8 or 9 or you aren't playing at all')

Because up until this week they were under the impression that the club were fielding two different teams at levels 5 divisions apart. They spent all summer trying to sort out the league structure and if one club announce that they in fact can't field two separate teams and will join them together into one team, it's not reasonable that they should be able to chose playing in the lower of the two leagues, 5 divisions down from the other one. They will have to compromise and go somewhere in between.

Parkmore were allowed to move 2 divisions due to special circumstances. It's highly unlikely your club will be allowed to move 5. If you want to go down the leagues, you'll have to do it the hard way. It seems cruel but the branch have learned the hard way.

BBG

gaius c wrote: »

Might not seem like many players to a big senior club but they were precious lifeblood to a small junior club and it's had a big affect on them as NUIM input has dwindled to 0 in recent years. The players who were not "scholarship" material for Barnhall were crucial to NK and the removal of the club development links with NUIM has meant that NK can't even get the players Barnhall have no interest in.

Back in the day, Barnhall only took the players who were genuine AIL prospects (which is fair enough) and NK had links with the college to give the others a chance to play with a club very close to the college while also supporting the college team. With the advent of the scholarship program, NK were "locked" out of the college and the uni don't really care because they have a few high profile players to post about in their newsletter, while the rest only play with the college team because Barnhall is too far to be making the trek for non-scholarship players. It's a waste really.

In all fairness, you make Barnhall sound like an epic "trek" for students. Both are a pain in the arse to get to via public transport. 5 mins to NK or 10 to BH by car. Regards a small junior club, it wasn't that long ago that BH would have been regarded as the NK's poorer neighbor (keeping in mind NK also have been around alot longer than BH being well established long before BH even had a clubhouse). Granted, rugby is not the only focus of NK with cricket, tennis etc allowing BH to concentrate solely on the rugby but that is hardly our fault but like everything, what is good for one person is bad for another. In saying that, I never knew NK did active drives for players in the college. Always found people usually did their homework to where the local club was. Generally any of the lads I knew that played on the college team who played for either club were playing at youth level before joining the college. Are you NK or ex-NK?

On another note, always enjoyed the 7s tourney in NK, brilliant it came back this year despite the bruised ribs and horrendous hangover....

GavMan

stephen_n wrote: »

Yeah but they didn't concede, they are not in a higher league.

Did he not say their Div 6 did not field but the Div 10 did?

gaius c

BBG wrote: »

In all fairness, you make Barnhall sound like an epic "trek" for students. Both are a pain in the arse to get to via public transport. 5 mins to NK or 10 to BH by car. Regards a small junior club, it wasn't that long ago that BH would have been regarded as the NK's poorer neighbor (keeping in mind NK also have been around alot longer than BH being well established long before BH even had a clubhouse). Granted, rugby is not the only focus of NK with cricket, tennis etc allowing BH to concentrate solely on the rugby but that is hardly our fault but like everything, what is good for one person is bad for another. In saying that, I never knew NK did active drives for players in the college. Always found people usually did their homework to where the local club was. Generally any of the lads I knew that played on the college team who played for either club were playing at youth level before joining the college. Are you NK or ex-NK?

On another note, always enjoyed the 7s tourney in NK, brilliant it came back this year despite the bruised ribs and horrendous hangover....

Ah you're going an awful long way back for when NK was "bigger". The last time they were in a towns cup final, I wasn't even born and the 50th anniversary of the last time they won it was a few years ago. It's been a while since I played with them. As you accurately observed, they can be more of a drinking club with a rugby problem nowadays.

NK used to recruit actively and arrange lifts for students who needed them as there were always lads driving through the town. Now they are not even allowed onto the campus so that leaves the Roost as a recruitment tool...

EpiphoneSpecial

gaius c wrote: »

You didn't. You played in div 5, which is still an extremely strong division (old j3) and five full divisions above div 10, which is a j5 league. Div 5 players could easily put lads from div 10 in hospital without even meaning to!

Both teams that finished bottom of div 5 have been moved into div 6. There's nothing sinister going on there.


Yep. Random guy on the internet is the mouthpiece of the Branch.
I'm merely well informed. "By stealth" is probably a bit harsh but the time to look for a change of league was during the summer, not after the leagues have already started.


Because up until this week they were under the impression that the club were fielding two different teams at levels 5 divisions apart. They spent all summer trying to sort out the league structure and if one club announce that they in fact can't field two separate teams and will join them together into one team, it's not reasonable that they should be able to chose playing in the lower of the two leagues, 5 divisions down from the other one. They will have to compromise and go somewhere in between.

Parkmore were allowed to move 2 divisions due to special circumstances. It's highly unlikely your club will be allowed to move 5. If you want to go down the leagues, you'll have to do it the hard way. It seems cruel but the branch have learned the hard way.

Sorry for typo, I meant Div5. Our relegation playoffs were a waste of time so.

Only asked was that LBs official line, wasn't insinuating you were a mouthpiece

I can see your point of Div6 guys playing Div9/10 but what about Div 9/10 guys being made play Div6... surely they could get hurt just as much. Either way, the LB should have insisted on them playing in a certain league.

EpiphoneSpecial

GavMan wrote: »

Did he not say their Div 6 did not field but the Div 10 did?

I was under the impression that Div6 team had withdrawn from league after conceding to Clontarf in first round of fixtures.

gaius c

They have withdrawn from div 6 now. Or rather the LB have accepted their withdrawal.
And the horse trading re the div 10 team begins.

salmocab

Lads would it be possible to name teams involved in your posts as sometimes its a pain to read "they played in that league last year" or "we are playing them next week" it sometimes means having to trawl back thru old posts to see who your talking about, cheers.

stephen_n

First game of the season tmw night, reckon I may be a tad stiff on Saturday at that march! Anyone here on the Terenure Division 5 team?

stephen_n

Well that was ouch!

devolution

Great game out in rock today in div 8,
Nure v rock is always a great battle, lots of school battles resurrected & both teams going at it "hammer & tongs"
Unfortunately they pipped us 15-8
Enjoyable game of rugby though!
Although my ribs don't agree!

OnTheLine

Heroditas wrote: »

Ha! I didn't realise the ref who was down to ref Clontarf v Emerald Warriors this weekend in J10 was actually reffing at all!

stephen_n wrote: »

Gregory Kelly? am I missing something? lol

Heroditas wrote: »

Sorry guys. He has coached my club's youths. I didn't even realise he had his ref qualifications.
One or two other posters here would know him.

I have been reading this topic over the past few weeks. Never saw fit to contribute until now..however I recalled this name from the other week on this thread.

I was out today watching Wezz and Railway Union in Div 9 and this guy was reffing. Only a young lad, looked not long out of his teens but without a shadow of a doubt the best referee I have seen at that level(and I have been around the level a long time). Made a cracking call on a ball kicked to touch that was kept in.

I would imagine he will not be at Div 9 level too much longer if the Branch have an ounce of sense about them.

Heroditas

He's an excellent coach as well.

Teferi

stephen_n wrote: »

First game of the season tmw night, reckon I may be a tad stiff on Saturday at that march! Anyone here on the Terenure Division 5 team?

I was propping in this game. Good, tough game.

stephen_n

Teferi wrote: »

I was propping in this game. Good, tough game.

I was playing blind side in the first half, so we would have got close was a tough game alright, think we didn't play the ref very well and need to work on our rucking too. Was good to get the first game out of the way!

stephen_n

That might go down as the worst conditions I have played in UCD 13-0 Greystones

Winters

Starting tomorrow at home. Malahide v Barnhall. Big match against the league leaders.

Followed by watching our 1sts v Carlow in Div 1.

stephen_n

Winters wrote: »

Starting tomorrow at home. Malahide v Barnhall. Big match against the league leaders.

Followed by watching our 1sts v Carlow in Div 1.

Good luck, going by the results so far that's a very good Barnhall team.