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How should Palestine defend itself?
Comments
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tayto lover wrote: »The IDF don't seem to be a disciplined army at all and remind me of the Black & Tans. They are grand behind all the fire-power from gunships, gunboats and drones but when they come in on the ground Hamas seems well able for them.
The IDF have no honour, they spend most of their time at "War" with women and children, evicting people so that their homes can be demolished or defending illegal settlements or shooting teenagers for throwing stones.
It has to be said however that there are those in the IDF who have refused to serve in the occupied territories,
and airforce officers who have refused to bomb civillian homes from the air.
PS I dont know the details , but I understand that the IDF retreated recently and soiled themselves when they were confronted by an equally well equipped Hezbollah Force0 -
comongethappy wrote: »Id argue that they could be more successful.
Either way, if their attempts are futile, why do they pour vast resources into thousands of rockets & millions of tonnes of cement & steel into tunnels?
Instead of choosing defensive tactics & anti air/armour (that absolutely would make the IDF think twice), they engage in a futile offence.
Their military tactical choices leave the gazans all but defenceless.
If by "more successful" you mean tactically defeating the IDF in operations which are not futile overt attempted rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, perhaps.
But I think they are probably, cruelly, coldly, calculatedly thinking of the advantage to be gained by the inevitable Israeli Military response, which is guaranteed by such attacks.
The strategy seems to be those who can suffer the most will eventually be winners....and there are precedents.....
which was also a tactic of Irish Revolutionaries, including Hunger Strikes to the death, even after 1916 was a Military Disaster. The same in the 1980 hunger strike strategy which lead to the eventual Settlement and the rise of SF.
But these are no Viet Cong or Viet Minh, who defeated the Armies of Colonial France, and then the US and their Allies.....but they had huge "Cold War" backing from the opponents of the US.
I don't think Hamas has very many Allies, even in the Arab World, particularly since the Democratically Elected Government of Egypt was overthrown in a US-backed Military coup, designed to destroy the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas parent organisation.0 -
irishpancake wrote: »If by "more successful" you mean tactically defeating the IDF in operations which are not futile overt attempted rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, perhaps.
"More successful" I guess is a relative term.
I mean, inflict heavier casualties on the enemy.
Make the IDF think hard about sending land forces into Gaza.irishpancake wrote: »But I think they are probably, cruelly, coldly, calculatedly thinking of the advantage to be gained by the inevitable Israeli Military response, which is guaranteed by such attacks.
The strategy seems to be those who can suffer the most will eventually be winners.
I agree.
It seems to me Hamas measure victory in the amount of Gazan dead.
Something they may share with Israel.0 -
Seems to me Israel wants to kill as many as they can, say the opposite to what they do. Hamas don't seem to care either.
The only losers are civilians.0 -
The International Community have been shown up for what they are i.e. worthless and double speaking.0
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tayto lover wrote: »The International Community have been shown up for what they are i.e. worthless and double speaking.
It's all about money for them, and the Palentinians don't have any0 -
Seems to me Israel wants to kill as many as they can, say the opposite to what they do. Hamas don't seem to care either.
The only losers are civilians.
I don't really understand what else people think that Hamas should/could be doing? given their resources and given the ruthlessness of the foe.0 -
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I don't really understand what else people think that Hamas should/could be doing? given their resources and given the ruthlessness of the foe.
From a political perspectove, hamas arw playing a blinder. In april they made concessions to the (relatively) moderate fatah party and a unity government was formed. And it looked like the palestinian territories were firmly on the road to recognition as a state which in turn would bring in the potential to dismantle the settlements. Hamas were beig politically sidelined (netanyahu wasnt overly happy either). Now, hamas are back in the public spotlight and have he sympathy of the world.
So asking what else hamas coukd do is the wrong question - what else could the palestinian authority do is a more apt question and the answer is pursue the negotiations0 -
johnnyskeleton wrote: »From a political perspectove, hamas arw playing a blinder. In april they made concessions to the (relatively) moderate fatah party and a unity government was formed. And it looked like the palestinian territories were firmly on the road to recognition as a state which in turn would bring in the potential to dismantle the settlements. Hamas were beig politically sidelined (netanyahu wasnt overly happy either). Now, hamas are back in the public spotlight and have he sympathy of the world.
So asking what else hamas coukd do is the wrong question - what else could the palestinian authority do is a more apt question and the answer is pursue the negotiations
Or perhaps even more relevent
What could/should the world do to stop the illegal massacre of civillians by an illegal invading army in a foreign country who have such media power that they have people discussing what their comparatively helpless victims should be doing better????
sounds to me a bit like discussing what a rape victim said or did not say or was wearing or not wearing,0 -
johnnyskeleton wrote: »From a political perspectove, hamas arw playing a blinder. In april they made concessions to the (relatively) moderate fatah party and a unity government was formed. And it looked like the palestinian territories were firmly on the road to recognition as a state which in turn would bring in the potential to dismantle the settlements. Hamas were beig politically sidelined (netanyahu wasnt overly happy either). Now, hamas are back in the public spotlight and have he sympathy of the world.
So asking what else hamas coukd do is the wrong question - what else could the palestinian authority do is a more apt question and the answer is pursue the negotiations
I don't think they are. I think they are allowing their own people be slaughtered.
What they should be doing is getting Turkey/Iran involved, then I could call it a war.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 13695
I don't think they are. I think they are allowing their own people be slaughtered.
What they should be doing is getting Turkey/Iran involved, then I could call it a war.
Well yes, militarily they are faring poorly, but politically they will do well. Sadly their political gain comes at a civilian cost, but listening to the Jon Snow interview i cant believe that hamas are unaware of same0 -
johnnyskeleton wrote: »Well yes, militarily they are faring poorly, but politically they will do well. Sadly their political gain comes at a civilian cost, but listening to the Jon Snow interview i cant believe that hamas are unaware of same
I'm not so sure. Anger exists amongst the population there now, and rightly so. Whether that goes directly towards Hamas favour I don't know.0 -
Anyone Know what The UN does !! With ukraine and Palestine all words. Their talk is just a joke. Isreal is a master class in PR and spin. With lines such as they want us to kill their children. The western media take statements from the IDF as fact and présent it as such. Palestiniens need to get their message across and start with an english speaker. Guardian piece stated 1 in every 10 persons on US media asked to talk about The attack on The Gazaian people is not an advid supporter of israël.0
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handlemaster wrote: »Anyone Know what The UN does !! With ukraine and Palestine all words. Their talk is just a joke. Isreal is a master class in PR and spin. With lines such as they want us to kill their children. The western media take statements from the IDF as fact and présent it as such. Palestiniens need to get their message across and start with an english speaker. Guardian piece stated 1 in every 10 persons on US media asked to talk about The attack on The Gazaian people is not an advid supporter of israël.
Indeed, few seem to realise this.
There is little the UN can do when America backs Israel all the way.
Just look at Cuba for an example/0 -
johnnyskeleton wrote: »From a political perspectove, hamas arw playing a blinder. In april they made concessions to the (relatively) moderate fatah party and a unity government was formed. And it looked like the palestinian territories were firmly on the road to recognition as a state which in turn would bring in the potential to dismantle the settlements. Hamas were beig politically sidelined (netanyahu wasnt overly happy either). Now, hamas are back in the public spotlight and have he sympathy of the world.
So asking what else hamas coukd do is the wrong question - what else could the palestinian authority do is a more apt question and the answer is pursue the negotiations
That presumes that "negotiations" are some form of neutral area where its a level playing field. In fact the US prevents UN supervision/chairing of any peace talks, with no penalty on Israel for its continued illegal occupation/.0 -
What can Hamas, and the Palestinians do exactly? Have a look at the size of the concentration camp that they have been thrown into. It's completely under siege with no way of escaping, and no where to hide either. There's no way out. It's hell on earth, and we Irish should be thankful that it isn't us. Poor Arabs anyway, you have to feel sorry for what's happening to them the last 13 years. Cruel world.0
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They can't defend themselves against the IDF.
In terms of strategy they could relocate some of their operations to neighboring countries and try and get Israeli involved in sticky situations militarily and diplomatically involving them (like Lebanon)
No idea of a way out of the deadlock that Palestine is in until the USA removes its backing, a strong EU stance with actual backbone to it could make a difference, anybody have an idea of public opinion about the conflict in countries like Germany, France and Italy.0 -
I don't really understand what else people think that Hamas should/could be doing? given their resources and given the ruthlessness of the foe.
I agree wholeheartedly... they have been given no choice as to how they must respond to the agressor, no choice except Hobson's choice.
It is a war of attrition, and Israel are completely compliant in making martyrs today, which in turn will create martyrs tomorrow, with only one mission, because their lives are one dimensional.
Israel is sowing the seeds of it's own inevitable destruction, there is no such thing as safety as an aggressor and colonialist.
Even the Roman Empire collapsed under its own weight and corruption.
Hamas and their allies play a long game....the war of the flea.
dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/10/05/both-forgotten-and-misread-robert-tabers-the-war-of-the-flea-by-daniel-n-white/Taber, quoting our old friend Vo Nguyen Giap, the Vietnamese commanding general from 1944-1978, on guerillas fighting a conventional Western army:
“The enemy will pass slowly from the offensive to the defensive. The blitzkrieg will transform itself into a war of duration. Thus, the enemy will be caught in a dilemma: He has to drag out the war in order to win it, and does not possess, on the other hand, the psychological and political means to fight a long, drawn-out war.”The guerrilla fights the war of the flea, and his military enemy suffers the dog’s disadvantages: too much to defend; too small, ubiquitous, and agile an enemy to come to grips with.
With these words, Robert Taber began a revolution in conventional military thought that has dramatically impacted the way armed conflicts have been fought since the book’s initial publication in 1965.
Whether ideological, nationalistic, or religious, all guerrilla insurgencies use similar tactics to advance their cause.
War of the Flea's timeless analysis of the guerrilla fighter’s means and methods provides a fundamental resource for any reader seeking to understand this distinct form of warfare and the challenge it continues to present to today’s armed forces in the Philippines, Colombia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere.0 -
irishpancake wrote: »Hamas has self-evidently not been militarily successful, nor could they be.
Annnnnnd...what does that imply for Palestinian militant strategies?
Why do people here continually encourage Hamas and the Palestinians to engage in a militant strategy which everyone acknowledges is not successful, and never can be? Which has pushed the Palestinians back from the 1967 borders to their current ghettos?
I mean, you guys are pro-Palestinian, right?But, despite the best efforts of pro-Israeli and pro-IDF propagandists in the print and broadcast media, on Social Media and here, there is, IMO, a perceptible change in public attitudes toward the Israeli Government and their policies with regard to the Palestinian Refugees they created, without the right of return to their own lands, which they forcibly incarcerate in the largest open-air prison in the world, Gaza and the West Bank.
Well, Id argue it hasn't really. The US is still solidly behind Israel. The UN and Europe is still wringing their hands uselessly. The Arab states are still sympathetic to Palestine whilst being very hostile towards Hamas. Guardianistas are still facebooking for fighting on to the last Palestinian.
Hamas militant action has actually hindered any political gains the Palestinians could have hoped for, as Hamas firing rockets at Israel gives Israel a free pass on their actions. Afterall, what would the US or Europe do if someone was firing rockets at their citizens daily? That's what the Israeli spokespeople relentlessly ask on every foreign interview I've seen and the interviewers never have a good response.
Israeli actions would be inexcusable only for the fact that Hamas insist on giving them an excuse.
@mufflets2I dont think that you realy understand what is going on...
Israel Is in breach of more International laws than any other country in the world for their illegal Occupation and land theft in their neighboring country.
I don't think you understand. Let me demonstrate. You're probably entirely right on your point about Israeli breaches. And that makes absolutely no practical difference because "international law" is a vague mess of traditions and customs, which nations *consent* to be held to.
Israel wholly ignores the breaches...and nothing happens. No world policeman is going to show up on their doorstep and haul them in to a world court. And yeah, that shows up the hypocritical state of the world, but that's the way it is.
@IrishpancakeHamas and their allies play a long game....the war of the flea.
They're doing so from the Gaza strip - roughly 365 square kilometers. You'd fit it about 4 or 5 times into Luxembourg. Or roughly about the size of the US city of Detroit. In an area that small and that heavily populated, you cant hide and you cant be agile.
The Israelis do have the psychological and political means to win a long war. They've certainly been winning the long war over the last 66 years.
Honestly lads, wakeup. Think.0 -
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tayto lover wrote: »The International Community have been shown up for what they are i.e. worthless and double speaking.
It's a free war for Israel though. It'll be the International community that will be the ones that will have to pay for all this damage, and destruction to Gaza through aid.
It just goes to show you how clueless the American goverment is. They have given millions of dollars to the Palestinian authority in humanitarian aid, and they have also rearmed Israel with military aid for more killing. You can be guaranteed Israel will be getting more than $3 billion dollars next year aswell after this mess. All free, and all paid for by the American taxpayer. Millions living in poverty, and on food stamps, and yet their goverment throws away billions on slaughter and mayhem. Disgusting!0 -
Lets see that happen without US (and other) aid!Annnnnnd...what does that imply for Palestinian militant strategies?
Why do people here continually encourage Hamas and the Palestinians to engage in a militant strategy which everyone acknowledges is not successful, and never can be? Which has pushed the Palestinians back from the 1967 borders to their current ghettos?
I mean, you guys are pro-Palestinian, right?
Well, Id argue it hasn't really. The US is still solidly behind Israel. The UN and Europe is still wringing their hands uselessly. The Arab states are still sympathetic to Palestine whilst being very hostile towards Hamas. Guardianistas are still facebooking for fighting on to the last Palestinian.
Hamas militant action has actually hindered any political gains the Palestinians could have hoped for, as Hamas firing rockets at Israel gives Israel a free pass on their actions. Afterall, what would the US or Europe do if someone was firing rockets at their citizens daily? That's what the Israeli spokespeople relentlessly ask on every foreign interview I've seen and the interviewers never have a good response.
Israeli actions would be inexcusable only for the fact that Hamas insist on giving them an excuse.
@mufflets2
I don't think you understand. Let me demonstrate. You're probably entirely right on your point about Israeli breaches. And that makes absolutely no practical difference because "international law" is a vague mess of traditions and customs, which nations *consent* to be held to.
Israel wholly ignores the breaches...and nothing happens. No world policeman is going to show up on their doorstep and haul them in to a world court. And yeah, that shows up the hypocritical state of the world, but that's the way it is.
@Irishpancake
They're doing so from the Gaza strip - roughly 365 square kilometers. You'd fit it about 4 or 5 times into Luxembourg. Or roughly about the size of the US city of Detroit. In an area that small and that heavily populated, you cant hide and you cant be agile.
The Israelis do have the psychological and political means to win a long war. They've certainly been winning the long war over the last 66 years.
Honestly lads, wakeup. Think.
And be that as it may, its still wrong. Still genocide. Gloss it up all you want.0 -
shedweller wrote: »Lets see that happen without US (and other) aid!
And be that as it may, its still wrong. Still genocide. Gloss it up all you want.
If you've got no real response, you could just say "Fair point" or "I hadn't thought it about it that way". The above is just evasion to avoid having to acknowledge the points made.0 -
irishpancake wrote: »Hamas has self-evidently not been militarily successful, nor could they be.
That said, one could argue they have been considerably more successful in comparison to Operation Cast Lead. An operation in which only 6 IDF troops were killed by enemy actions. Thus far, 63 IDF troops have been killed by enemy actions and that represents a 1050% increase in IDF fatalities. Which seems to suggest they have clearly learned, adapted and increased their lethality from the previous war. So I'm guessing the leadership of the al-Qassam Brigades will be quite pleased with this.0 -
Offhand, rather surprised that the Northern Lebeneon border has been mostly quiet during this. Might be related to they're (Hezbollah) being busy in Syria?0
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This is what the Palestinians are up against:
The Times Of Israel has removed a provocatively-titled blog post after huge blowback, denunciations, and ridicule across social media. The post - "When Genocide Is Permissible" concludes, "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu clearly stated at the outset of this incursion that his objective is to restore a sustainable quiet for the citizens of Israel. We have already established that it is the responsibility of every government to ensure the safety and security of its people. If political leaders and military experts determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then permissible to achieve those responsible goals?"0 -
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Offhand, rather surprised that the Northern Lebeneon border has been mostly quiet during this. Might be related to they're (Hezbollah) being busy in Syria?
There is that, but also Hezbollah have been careful to avoid provoking Israel since the 2006 Lebanon conflict. Whilst the IDF campaign had many failings, the Hezbollah claims of victory were pretty much based solely on still existing in some shape or form at the end of the fighting ("Didn't knock me down Ray. Hey Ray! You didn't knock me down"). That's a fairly low threshold for victory.
Hezbollah are on record as saying they wouldn't have kidnapped those Israeli soldiers if they had realised the consequences, and they didn't take any action during the 2008 Gaza conflict either. The Lebanon border with Israel has been remarkably quiet since the end of the 2006 war, for a war the Israelis apparently lost.
@RightwingThis is what the Palestinians are up against:
The Times Of Israel has removed a provocatively-titled blog post after huge blowback, denunciations, and ridicule across social media. The post - "When Genocide Is Permissible" concludes, "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu clearly stated at the outset of this incursion that his objective is to restore a sustainable quiet for the citizens of Israel. We have already established that it is the responsibility of every government to ensure the safety and security of its people. If political leaders and military experts determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then permissible to achieve those responsible goals?"
Huge blowback, denunciations and ridicule (entirely justified) of a provocative *blog post* (so little or no editorial control) by a single journalist in a newspaper? Which was quickly taken down? A single journalist who was sacked by Times of Israel as a direct result and has issued an apology for the blog? Doesn't that reinforce where Israelis as a whole stand on the whole "genocide" thing?
In terms of genocidal aims you will find much worse in the official charter of Hamas, the rulers of Gaza. With no retraction, denunciation or ridicule.
That is what the Israelis are up against.0 -
In terms of genocidal aims you will find much worse in the official charter of Hamas, the rulers of Gaza. With no retraction, denunciation or ridicule.
That is what the Israelis are up against.
Interesting, why have the following politicians not been sacked by there parties:'MOTHERS OF ALL PALESTINIANS SHOULD ALSO BE KILLED,' SAYS ISRAELI POLITICIAN
--SNIP--
On Monday Shaked quoted this on her Facebook page: "Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there."
"They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists," said Shaked. Standing behind the operations on Gaza, "they are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists," Shaked added.
--SNIP--
Above emphasis mine
Another example:Calls for genocide enter Israeli mainstream
--SNIP--
Mordechai Kedar, a lecturer on Arabic literature at Bar Ilan University, believes the sisters and mothers of Palestinian “terrorists” should be raped:A terrorist, like those who kidnapped the boys [in the West Bank on June 12] and killed them, the only thing that will deter them, is if they know that either their sister or mother will be raped if they are caught. What can we do? This is the culture that we live in.
Note that his university did not reprimand him. They defended his comments:
--SNIP--The purpose was to define the culture of death of the terrorist organizations. Dr Kedar illustrated in his words the bitter reality of the Middle East and the inability of a modern and law-abiding country to fight the terror of suicide bombers.
--SNIP--
And finally we have Moshe Feiglin, a deputy speaker of the Israeli parliament and a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party, urging the Israeli army to kill Palestinians in Gaza indiscriminately and use every means possible to get them to leave:
--SNIP--[Netanyahu] announces that Israel is about to attack military targets in their area and urges those who are not involved and do not wish to be harmed to leave immediately. Sinai is not far from Gaza and they can leave. This will be the limit of Israel’s humanitarian efforts. … All the military and infrastructural targets will be attacked with no consideration for ‘human shields’ or ‘environmental damage’. …
The IDF will conquer the entire Gaza, using all the means necessary to minimize any harm to our soldiers, with no other considerations. … The enemy population that is innocent of wrong-doing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave. Israel will generously aid those who wish to leave.
2 of the people quoted are politicians, one is a deputy speaker of the Israeli parliament and a member of the Likud, who are the leaders of the coalition in Israel. The other is a member of a party in coalition with Likud and has cabinet members (economic minister, and to be clear the economic ministers did not make these statements). So we are not talking about fringe elements here, but mainstream Israeli politicians calling for genocide, and ethnic cleansing. Very odd that they have not been fired from there parties.....
So, to paraphrase you (hope I am using that word right), this is what the Palestinians are up against.0 -
Annnnnnd...what does that imply for Palestinian militant strategies?
Why do people here continually encourage Hamas and the Palestinians to engage in a militant strategy which everyone acknowledges is not successful, and never can be? Which has pushed the Palestinians back from the 1967 borders to their current ghettos?
I mean, you guys are pro-Palestinian, right?
Some of your posts are so devoid of logic and rational it is mind boggling. So according to you the current predicament of the Palestinians is purely down to Hamas (although they weren't around all of the time) and their strategy. I am not militarily trained but i would wager a guess that nor are you but there you are sitting behind a computer slating Hamas's strategy like you are Genghis Khan. Hamas is not an army and they are against the fourth biggest army in the world supported by the biggest army in the world. Remember that is the context of this thread and central to this whole conflict.Hamas militant action has actually hindered any political gains the Palestinians could have hoped for, as Hamas firing rockets at Israel gives Israel a free pass on their actions. Afterall, what would the US or Europe do if someone was firing rockets at their citizens daily? That's what the Israeli spokespeople relentlessly ask on every foreign interview I've seen and the interviewers never have a good response.
More amazing insight here. I have seen many Israeli spokespeople on TV, all well versed to never engage in any debate but simply rehash pre rehearsed answers. I have seen one guy in particular, the Government Spokesperson and by God, he has a face of stone, just spouting Israeli PR all over the news and literally justifying the deaths of innocent civilians.
If he were actually interviewed by somebody who is knowledgeable in the conflict, a respected Historian or somebody of that manner, he would be absolutely destroyed and be shown for the fraud that he is. I can think of several individuals i would love to see him be interviewed by or debate against but the Israeali PR machine would never let that happen.
Interestingly, his analogy of what country would allow rocket fire at their citizens is not at all correct as he leaves out a central factor to this, and that is the illegal settlements and the occupation. The question should be what country would allow another to illegally occupy its land and stamp on the peoples human rights without a response. The answer is none and hence here we are.
The fact that you watch the Israeli spokespeople and seem to accept what they are saying is quite disturbing. All you are doing is ingesting Israel propaganda and allowing it to be a part of your opinion, dangerous stuff.
I noted you also tried to undermine International Law earlier. Strangely a lot of the international law that Israel is blatantly breaking comes form the Geneva Convention which was based a lot on the principles of the Nuremberg Trials, so as nothing like that would ever happen again. Unfortunately Israel have no regard for international law, and history is repeating itself.
Please for once, accept Israelis responsibility in all of this and stop trying to blame Hamas entirely for the situation Palestine finds themselves in. It makes no sense to take Israel out of the equation, it is illogical.The Israelis do have the psychological and political means to win a long war. They've certainly been winning the long war over the last 66 years.
Honestly lads, wakeup. Think.
I think everyone here is awake, you on the other hand, well i am not sure where you are at. I can only think that your stance is intentional for some ulterior motives as all one has to do is read a book about this conflict to maintain some sort of factual opinion, where as you just seem so extreme and ignorant.0 -
By saying this you mean Palestine should lay down their arms and just stand there while israel bomb them to oblivion?
Hamas militant action has actually hindered any political gains the Palestinians could have hoped for, as Hamas firing rockets at Israel gives Israel a free pass on their actions.
Israeli actions would be inexcusable only for the fact that Hamas insist on giving them an excuse.
If you think israel will enter peaceful negotiations then you are deluded in the extreme. israel simply want the entire country for themselves and will not stop until they get it. Yes they have the ability to do that but that does not mean they should, does it?
So, let me be clear on this. You are saying that israels actions would be inexcusable if Hamas stopped fighting back, sorry, giving them an excuse.
So lets say they did stop giving them an excuse and israel lives up to its reputation and continues its bombardment of whats left of Palestine. Will you then stand up and say what israel are doing is inexcusable?
Like fcuk you will. You'll have some other half arsed excuse. Like all the other apologists.
Jeez. I mean we teach our kids to stand up for themselves in school! Dont take no nonsense or you'll be walked all over. But the Palestinians are terrorists.
Logic sure has gone out the window round here!0 -
@Rightwing
Huge blowback, denunciations and ridicule (entirely justified) of a provocative *blog post* (so little or no editorial control) by a single journalist in a newspaper? Which was quickly taken down? A single journalist who was sacked by Times of Israel as a direct result and has issued an apology for the blog? Doesn't that reinforce where Israelis as a whole stand on the whole "genocide" thing?
In terms of genocidal aims you will find much worse in the official charter of Hamas, the rulers of Gaza. With no retraction, denunciation or ridicule.
That is what the Israelis are up against.
Testing the waters as I believe many Israel see nothing wrong in genocide' And inevitably, some fell straight into the trap.
The Israelis are extremely calculated.0 -
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Interesting, why have the following politicians not been sacked by there parties:
Because Ayelet Shaked is a member of the Jewish Home party, a hardline religious zionist party from the fringe of Israeli politics so they probably dont disapprove of her remarks?
EDIT - I should also point out that Ayelet Shaked has claimed she has been smeared by Gideon Resnick (using reliable sources like Electronic Intifada) who took an article written 12 years ago by another man (not Ayelet Shaked), cherrypicking it for Hitler sounding bits, and sticking in a smear about her being a dumb female. She also points out that Resnick had to correct his earlier article by admitting she had not actually written the statements he accused her of making.
From the comments she made in her reponse it does sound like her views are being misrepresented.At the same time, the murder of Jerusalem teenager Mohammed Abu Khdeir was immediately condemned by all of Israel’s society.
As a Knesset Member, I can assure you his murderers, once convicted for their terrible crime, will remain in prison for the rest of their lives.
We will certainly not name streets after them.
Israel has no agenda against Arab civilians in Gaza, just as the US has none against Arabs in any of the countries where it’s conducting its now 13-year war to preserve civilization from violent barbarism.
We want a good life, with peace and prosperity for all the eight million plus people living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
Indeed, if the Arab society enjoys prosperity, so will Jewish society, and vice versa. let me be very clear I condemn any kind of assault against innocent civilians, whether they are Jews or Arabs.
But in order to get there, they must stop firing rockets at us.
If you're trying to demonstrate that some Israelis hold extremist, hateful views then I never denied that they do. However, the Jewish Home party is a tiny minority political group, and Ayelet Shaked is a single politician in it. They won 12 seats last time out - out of 120.
Compare that to the Hamas charter (so a core document that all Hamas politicians sign up to and agree with) which clearly states: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.'"
All Hamas politicians agree with that call for genocide. Hamas's aims of genocide were endorsed massively by the Palestinian people, giving them 74 seats out of 132. Added to this is the wide support Hamas enjoys from sympathisers and supporters abroad, despite their genocidal aims.
Whereas the remarks of Ayelet Shaked draw only minority, extremist support in Israel (and heavy criticism from others), the stated aims of Hamas draw massive electoral support in Palestine. And no criticism.Mordechai Kedar...Note that his university did not reprimand him. They defended his comments:
Defended his comments from who? The Israelis who challenged him? His comments were idiotic, but he didn't actually call for rape to be employed as state policy.When Hadar said, “We can’t take such steps, of course,” Kedar continued: “I’m not talking about what we should or shouldn’t do. I’m talking about the facts. The only thing that deters a suicide bomber is the knowledge that if he pulls the trigger or blows himself up, his sister will be raped. That’s all. That’s the only thing that will bring him back home, in order to preserve his sister’s honor.”
And just being a university professor, he really hasn't got the political clout to do so. Meanwhile, Hamas, with the massive support of the Palestinian voters, does have the clout to carry out their genocidal aims.
As for Moshe Feiglin, again, the guy is a fringe element - describing him as a "member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party" is a wonderful obfuscation. You can be quite sure Netanyahu does not want him as a member of his party.
While he is a member of Likud, he is a member of a hard right, religious faction within Likud and has run against Netanyahu for leadership of the party in 2005 (enjoying a massive 12.5% support - risen to 23% on his most recent effort). Someone who Netanyahu tried to oppose standing for election by introducing a rule to bar Likud from fielding a candidate with a 3+ month prison sentence. And a guy so far off to the right of Israeli politics that he is actually on record as praising Hitler as as military genius who loved music and painted, raising Germany to an exemplary regime with proper justice and public order.
The guy is crazy. And there are enough crazy people in Israel that he can get elected. But that's about it. His influence ends there.So we are not talking about fringe elements here,
Yes we are.
Look Wes, you can go around and dig up wild claims by individuals in Israeli society. There are certainly extremists in Israel, and those extremists enjoy minority support for their crazed views. However, those crazed views get criticised by the majority of Israelis who disagree with them. And on the other hand I can always point to the official charter of Hamas which calls for genocide of Jews (not just Israelis mind, Jews), and the mass support enjoyed by that charter by the Palestinian people and Hamas sympathisers abroad. And how Hamas doesn't have to defend those views because no one in the Gaza Strip criticises them or denounces them.
I think mass support for genocide by a majority of Palestinians is a little more telling than Israeli extremists with minority support making stupid statements on facebook.0 -
Because Ayelet Shaked is a member of the Jewish Home party, a hardline religious zionist party from the fringe of Israeli politics so they probably dont disapprove of her remarks?
EDIT - I should also point out that Ayelet Shaked has claimed she has been smeared by Gideon Resnick (using reliable sources like Electronic Intifada) who took an article written 12 years ago by another man (not Ayelet Shaked), cherrypicking it for Hitler sounding bits, and sticking in a smear about her being a dumb female...................
She quoted a section of it on her facebook page. She didn't quote in the context of condemning it either.0 -
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Look Wes, you can go around and dig up wild claims by individuals in Israeli society. There are certainly extremists in Israel, and those extremists enjoy minority support for their crazed views. However, those crazed views get criticised by the majority of Israelis who disagree with them. And on the other hand I can always point to the official charter of Hamas which calls for genocide of Jews (not just Israelis mind, Jews), and the mass support enjoyed by that charter by the Palestinian people and Hamas sympathisers abroad. And how Hamas doesn't have to defend those views because no one in the Gaza Strip criticises them or denounces them.
I think mass support for genocide by a majority of Palestinians is a little more telling than Israeli extremists with minority support making stupid statements on facebook.
....yet those settlers and their colonies in the West Bank etc enjoy government support. Nothing is done to reign in settler violence. It's not only barking like a dog, its walking and biting like one too.0 -
Because Ayelet Shaked is a member of the Jewish Home party, a hardline religious zionist party from the fringe of Israeli politics so they probably dont disapprove of her yelet Shaked is a single politician in it. They won 12 seats last time out .
Just on the Ayelet Shaked point. To say hes a member of a tiny minority party is stretching the truth.
A. They're part of the coalition gov and an important part seat wise
B. Likud has 20 seats Yesh Atid 19 and the Jewish Home is the third biggest player with 12 seats.
Taking the government and opposition together, they have the fourth most seats.
So they're not exactly a tiny minority. Balad with 3 seats and Kadima with 2 seats, both in opposition, now they're a minority.0 -
Just on the Ayelet Shaked point. To say hes a member of a tiny minority party is stretching the truth.
A. They're part of the coalition gov and an important part seat wise
B. Likud has 20 seats Yesh Atid 19 and the Jewish Home is the third biggest player with 12 seats.
Taking the government and opposition together, they have the fourth most seats.
So they're not exactly a tiny minority. Balad with 3 seats and Kadima with 2 seats, both in opposition, now they're a minority.
Indeed. Can't beat hard facts. Eh?
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Just on the Ayelet Shaked point. To say hes a member of a tiny minority party is stretching the truth.
A. They're part of the coalition gov and an important part seat wise
B. Likud has 20 seats Yesh Atid 19 and the Jewish Home is the third biggest player with 12 seats.
Taking the government and opposition together, they have the fourth most seats.
So they're not exactly a tiny minority. Balad with 3 seats and Kadima with 2 seats, both in opposition, now they're a minority.
12 seats out of 120 is a minority, no matter how you spin it. 108 seats went to other parties. What the above figures indicate is that the Israeli political parties are fractured, and forming a government means a coalition between a variety of different parties which...
@Nodin....yet those settlers and their colonies in the West Bank etc enjoy government support. Nothing is done to reign in settler violence. It's not only barking like a dog, its walking and biting like one too.
is why small extremist groups can secure support for settlement policy despite being a minority.She quoted a section of it on her facebook page. She didn't quote in the context of condemning it either.
I didn't know you spoke Hebrew. From her counter, she acknowledges the article but she said it was a wider discussion by another author as to if a group or people who deliberately attack civilians can morally claim a special status for their own civilians. She claims Resnick deliberately cherrypicked statements made in the article, and assigned them to her.
Her view on it is summarised as"A call for the indiscriminate killing of children is a terrible thing. But what if the statement was that any time you attack our children, you’re exposing your own people to the same fate? Still unsettling, but rational when you consider their civilian population is actively supporting and participating in their war and terror efforts. It’s not a call for indiscriminate murder."
Each Palestinian rocket coming out of Gaza represents two separate war crimes: one for purposely targeting a civilian population in Israel, the other for launching from within their own civilian population.0 -
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12 seats out of 120 is a minority, no matter how you spin it. 108 seats went to other parties. What the above figures indicate is that the Israeli political parties are fractured, and forming a government means a coalition between a variety of different parties which...
@Nodin
is why small extremist groups can secure support for settlement policy despite being a minority.
...over 47 years. Yes, very likely.I didn't know you spoke Hebrew. From her counter, she acknowledges the article but she said it was a wider discussion by another author as to if a group or people who deliberately attack civilians can morally claim a special status for their own civilians. She claims Resnick deliberately cherrypicked statements made in the article, and assigned them to her.
Her view on it is summarised as
Yes, she's justifying taking them all out.0 -
Agreed, and the US/Israelis are the masters of propaganda.
Doubtful actually. Dubious claims of varying credibility are made against lone Israeli figures and its apparent proof of Israeli state policy or widespread Israeli belief (need to airbrush out the Israelis who disagree with the claims of course). Meanwhile Hamas proudly calls for the genocide of all Jews in its charter, enjoys mass electoral support and the sympathy from the critically important facebook community.
The Israelis seem pretty poor at propaganda.0 -
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Doubtful actually. Dubious claims of varying credibility are made against lone Israeli figures and its apparent proof of Israeli state policy or widespread Israeli belief (need to airbrush out the Israelis who disagree with the claims of course). Meanwhile Hamas proudly calls for the genocide of all Jews in its charter, enjoys mass electoral support and the sympathy from the critically important facebook community.
The Israelis seem pretty poor at propaganda.
40 odd percent. That's "mass electoral support" now?
You realise that 9 out of 10 Israelis apparently support the current war?0 -
Doubtful actually. Dubious claims of varying credibility are made against lone Israeli figures and its apparent proof of Israeli state policy or widespread Israeli belief (need to airbrush out the Israelis who disagree with the claims of course). Meanwhile Hamas proudly calls for the genocide of all Jews in its charter, enjoys mass electoral support and the sympathy from the critically important facebook community.
The Israelis seem pretty poor at propaganda.
No.
Hamas enjoy little support, it's the Palestine people who are getting sympathy.
Israel claim they only want to 'target terrorists'.
It would be a like a man claiming that he wants to see a neighbours shop thrive, and then opens the door and lets an elephant in to destroy anything and everything it sees.0 -
Great song, as gaeilge, about Palestine by Roisin Elsafty.
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12 seats out of 120 is a minority, no matter how you spin it. 108 seats went to other parties. What the above figures indicate is that the Israeli political parties are fractured, and forming a government means a coalition between a variety of different parties which...
is why small extremist groups can secure support for settlement policy despite being a minority.
So we've changed from tiny minority and the fringe of Israeli politics to now just a regular run of the mill minority.
Fully agree that the figures highlight a fragmented party situation. The fact that the main party only holds 1/10 of the seats shows just that.
Sure I guess a member of Likud is also part of a minority.
Fact remains Jewish Home and Ayelet Shaked, a member of that party and therefore member of the current coalitionn are an integral player in the makeup of the current Knesset not some random minority who have no say in Israeli politics and decision making0 -
shedweller wrote: »By saying this you mean Palestine should lay down their arms and just stand there while israel bomb them to oblivion?
I'm taking the controversial position that when youve been trying a militant strategy since 1967 and its ended up in complete failure with you boxed up in the Gaza Strip under siege, and when everyone acknowledges that not only is the militant strategy currently failing but that it *cant* succeed then maybe, just maybe the Palestinians ought to try something else.Will you then stand up and say what israel are doing is inexcusable?
Of course I will. It wont make the slightest bit of difference of course. Where it will make a difference is in Europe and the US.Jeez. I mean we teach our kids to stand up for themselves in school! Dont take no nonsense or you'll be walked all over. But the Palestinians are terrorists.
Logic sure has gone out the window round here!
Sure has - geopolitical strategy taken from the playground the playground. Really? This isn't a kids squabble. Its a real conflict with real consequences.
The Palestinian people seem to be cursed by awful friends offering even worse advice.
@NodinYes, she's justifying taking them all out.
No, she's not. She specifically disowns indiscriminate murder, and specifically underlines that she condemns attacks on innocent civilians be they Arab or Jewish. I'm sure her views are on the extreme right of Israeli politics, and overall I would not agree with them, but it does seem like the core of the "story" came out of a smear attempt.40 odd percent. That's "mass electoral support" now?
Well Nodin, Hidalgo seems to think a party with 10% support is a majority. Well, when it can be used to smear Israeli politics. 40% is still a minority when it comes to trying to defend Palestinian endorsement of genocide though, right?
As it stands, Hamas brought home 74 out of 132 seats. That's a hefty majority. Jewish Home party brought home 12 seats out of 120 - that's a tiny minority. I actually don't think the majority of Israelis or Palestinians endorse genocide -but Pro-Palestinians desperately point to fringe figures either saying something stupid, or being misrepresented and say "See - this is what Israeli is about". Meanwhile, the same people very carefully and very deliberately ignore that the official position of the official Hamas government elected by the Palestinian people with a huge majority is to kill every Jew they can find.
The bias is amazing. Absolutely amazing.You realise that 9 out of 10 Israelis apparently support the current war?
I'm sure they do. Its not the same as supporting genocide though.
@HidalgoSo we've changed from tiny minority and the fringe of Israeli politics to now just a regular run of the mill minority.
No still a tiny minority. 40% is a minority. 10% is a tiny minority. What you're trying to do is take the (seemingly misrepresented) views of a single member of a small party with 12 seats and say "Look - this is representative of the views of the Israeli government, and indeed the majority of Israelis!"
Its not. Stop beating a dead horse.
Frankly I'm surprised people are focusing on Shaked (who appears to have been misrepresented) and not focusing on Moshe Feiglin who really did say what he is accused of saying and really did mean it. For those who say US/Israel are the masters of propaganda is letting complete idiots like Moshe Feiglin near a microphone to spout his love of Hitler and ranting about taking the gloves off part of the master plan?
There is a reason Netanyahu is trying to kick the guy out of Likud.0 -
Only fanatics listen to Hamas. As people become more educated, they are beginning to question Governments. This is a good development.
America forever slamming other countries for torture, and lo and behold I read 'we tortured some folks'. Wasn't that 1 of the reasons they invaded Iraq.
The mind just boggles.0 -
@ sand
"I'm taking the controversial position that when youve been trying a militant strategy since 1967 and its ended up in complete failure with you boxed up in the Gaza Strip under siege, and when everyone acknowledges that not only is the militant strategy currently failing but that it *cant* succeed then maybe, just maybe the Palestinians ought to try something else."
I agree, A legitimate resistance organisation should be getting a lot more support against a clearly rogue state such as Israel, however,
Is their ineffectiveness not down to the total media power and international influence of the Israelis , what exactly do you think that Hamas could be doing better
"The Palestinian people seem to be cursed by awful friends offering even worse advice"
They do not seem to have any friends outside of humanitarian organisations and (growing support from) ordinary people
"The official position of the official Hamas government elected by the Palestinian people with a huge majority is to kill every Jew they can find. "
This is an irrelevant red herring that is trumpeted by every Israeli spokesman on every news channel.
Yes Hamas say some crazy things about Israel ,wouldn't you.
Again ,Hamas are a resistance organisation resisting the illegal occupation, land theft, slaughter, water theft , apartheid rule, and blatant slandering of their people contrary to international law.
If Israel were illegally occupying Ireland and literally getting away with murder here. I would be calling for their heads - would you - and a few ineffective rockets or some crazy talk in a charter would be the least of their worries0 -
@ sand
"I'm taking the controversial position that when youve been trying a militant strategy since 1967 and its ended up in complete failure with you boxed up in the Gaza Strip under siege, and when everyone acknowledges that not only is the militant strategy currently failing but that it *cant* succeed then maybe, just maybe the Palestinians ought to try something else."
I agree, A legitimate resistance organisation should be getting a lot more support against a clearly rogue state such as Israel, however,
Is their ineffectiveness not down to the total media power and international influence of the Israelis , what exactly do you think that Hamas could be doing better
"The Palestinian people seem to be cursed by awful friends offering even worse advice"
They do not seem to have any friends outside of humanitarian organisations and (growing support from) ordinary people
"The official position of the official Hamas government elected by the Palestinian people with a huge majority is to kill every Jew they can find. "
This is an irrelevant red herring that is trumpeted by every Israeli spokesman on every news channel.
Yes Hamas say some crazy things about Israel ,wouldn't you.
Again ,Hamas are a resistance organisation resisting the illegal occupation, land theft, slaughter, water theft , apartheid rule, and blatant slandering of their people contrary to international law.
If Israel were illegally occupying Ireland and literally getting away with murder here. I would be calling for their heads - would you - and a few ineffective rockets would be the least of their worries
Israel doens't have the stomach for a ground war. Looks like they have completely capitulated to Hamas.0 -
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Israel doens't have the stomach for a ground war. Looks like they have completely capitulated to Hamas.
The IDF prefer their enemy under the age of 20 with stones or women and children or small specks from the f16
They soiled themselves a year and a half ago when confronted with a well equipped Hezbollah.
They are without honour.
I think that they have gone way too far this time
Ordinary people who used to swallow their propaganda are looking into what is really going on and supporting the Palestinians
I've been on two sponsored walks in this area to either gather money for gaza or protest Israel, in the last week and even my uncle in Mayo was clued in when I met him last week
Let's hope that will be the last war crime that Israel gets away with0
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