How should Palestine defend itself?

Sand

mufflets2 wrote: »

@ sand
their ineffectiveness not down to the total media power and international influence of the Israelis , what exactly do you think that Hamas could be doing better

Not taking on the local military superpower in a military conflict?

They do not seem to have any friends outside of humanitarian organisations and (growing support from) ordinary people

Hamas and humanitarian organisations are friends. Ah, thanks for lightening the mood.

"The official position of the official Hamas government elected by the Palestinian people with a huge majority is to kill every Jew they can find. "

This is an irrelevant red herring that is trumpeted by every Israeli spokesman on every news channel.
Yes Hamas say some crazy things about Israel ,wouldn't you.

Its not a red herring, its a statement about what Hamas is and what support for Hamas implies. It is especially important to highlight when it comes to underlining the bias of certain contributors.

I said before, much earlier in this thread, that I never encountered anyone who came to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict seeking a genuine analysis of the issue or problem. I have however encountered many who decide who the good guys are first, and then deliberately sift through evidence to find the facts they like and discard the facts that might cause them to actually think.

@Rightwing

Israel doens't have the stomach for a ground war. Looks like they have completely capitulated to Hamas.

Christ almighty. :rolleyes:

Still calling for the fight to continue to the last Palestinian I see.

Rightwing

mufflets2 wrote: »

The IDF prefer their enemy under the age of 20 with stones or women and children or small specks from the f16

They soiled themselves a year and a half ago when confronted with a well equipped Hezbollah.

They are without honour.

I think that they have gone way too far this time
Ordinary people who used to swallow their propaganda are looking into what is really going on and supporting the Palestinians

I've been on two sponsored walks in this area to either gather money for gaza or protest Israel, in the last week and even my uncle in Mayo was clued in when I met him last week

Let's hope that will be the last war crime that Israel gets away with

Indeed.

Everything Israeli should be boycotted.

Sand

mufflets2 wrote: »

I've been on two sponsored walks in this area to either gather money for gaza or protest Israel, in the last week and even my uncle in Mayo was clued in when I met him last week

Let's hope that will be the last war crime that Israel gets away with

Yeah, I think its the sponsored walks that will break the back of the Israeli war-machine.

Rightwing

Sand wrote: »

Yeah, I think its the sponsored walks that will break the back of the Israeli war-machine.

They have the machines, but not the soldiers. I'd hate to see those folks without the yanks tanks and bombs.

mufflets2

@sand
"Not taking on the local military superpower in a military conflict?"

A previous poster was right you are an armchair critic just trying to be controversial.

What exactly do you think that Hamas should be doing!!???

"Hamas and humanitarian organisations are friends. Ah, thanks for lightening the mood. "

I was responding to your comment referring to the palestinian people

"Its not a red herring, its a statement about what Hamas is and what support for Hamas implies. It is especially important to highlight when it comes to underlining the bias of certain contributors.

I said before, much earlier in this thread, that I never encountered anyone who came to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict seeking a genuine analysis of the issue or problem. I have however encountered many who decide who the good guys are first, and then deliberately sift through evidence to find the facts they like and discard the facts that might cause them to actually think."

Can you really not see that this is a red herring
That
1. it is understandable that a desperate resistance organisation would say very bad things about the murdering thieves
2. That it is a bit like criticising the French resistance during the illegal German occupation for saying that they would like to string up every bloody German.
3. That it is an effective way of taking the focus of the real issue - the real world slaughter of women and children and illegal occupation and land theft ???

"Still calling for the fight to continue to the last Palestinian I see."

You do not applaud the Palestinian resistance efforts??
It is easy from your arm chair to criticise? Yes?
Or would you prefer if the Palestinians just lay down to the theft and slaughter???

mufflets2

Sand wrote: »

Yeah, I think its the sponsored walks that will break the back of the Israeli war-machine.

No it's armchair critics like you that make the world a better place

Also Mr know it all go look up what was the biggest factor in dismantling the apartheid regime in South Africa

Rightwing

mufflets2 wrote: »

No it's armchair critics like you that make the world a better place

How much did you raise from your walk? Palestinian people need generous folk like you now, more than ever.

mufflets2

Rightwing wrote: »

How much did you raise from your walk? Palestinian people need generous folk like you now, more than ever.

Don't know , wasn't organising it, but there were about 100 people , paid €5 each - here in balbriggan

These things are going on everywhere

Rightwing

mufflets2 wrote: »

Don't know , wasn't organising it, but there were about 100 people , paid €5 each - here in balbriggan

These things are going on everywhere

Normally I don't believe in giving cash to charities, just goes to the top.

This situation, you give money and they could wreck the place again. Still, I will donate, it may go to medical aid etc.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

I'm taking the controversial position that when youve been trying a militant strategy since 1967 and its ended up in complete failure with you boxed up in the Gaza Strip under siege, and when everyone acknowledges that not only is the militant strategy currently failing but that it *cant* succeed then maybe, just maybe the Palestinians ought to try something else.

.

Why do you keep talking about Gaza as if it represents the total of Palestinian politics?

EI_Flyboy

Sand wrote: »

I'm taking the controversial position that when youve been trying a militant strategy since 1967 and its ended up in complete failure with you boxed up in the Gaza Strip under siege, and when everyone acknowledges that not only is the militant strategy currently failing but that it *cant* succeed then maybe, just maybe the Palestinians ought to try something else.

They have. All the moderate Palestinians have tried negotiating peace with the Israelis offering greater and greater concessions only to be undermined by the Israelis and made ineffectual. The fact that Hamas are the only game left in town is no small wonder.

Black Swan

onyerbikepat wrote: »

MOD REMINDER:
Vid-only posts are not considered appropriate per charter. Ours is a discussion forum, and you need discuss what you post.

pO1Neil

National Liberation Army Volunteers in Portlaoise Prison have donated their Prisoners Dependents Fund (PDF) payments for the month of July to a Palestinian solidarity campaign.

You will be hard pushed to find a more selfless act than a prisoner donating their monthly PDF to Palestine.

Well done INLA

comongethappy

pO1Neil wrote: »

National Liberation Army Volunteers in Portlaoise Prison have donated their Prisoners Dependents Fund (PDF) payments for the month of July to a Palestinian solidarity campaign.

You will be hard pushed to find a more selfless act than a prisoner donating their monthly PDF to Palestine.

Well done INLA

Wonderful people them republican terrorists.

Saints!

pO1Neil

comongethappy wrote: »

Wonderful people them republican terrorists.

Saints!

Yep, same rhetoric used by the Nazi's to describe the Polish & French resistance.

The INLA were socialist guerrillas figthing for the embitterment of the Irish people.

comongethappy

pO1Neil wrote: »

The INLA were socialist guerrillas figthing for the embitterment of the Irish people.

Thankfully an opinion not shared by the vast vast majority of people.

Rightwing

I'd seriously fear for the folks in Gaza now. Israel humiliated in the ground war. Hadn't the bottle for it, soldiers were falling like flies.

Now, I'd suspect bombs will go 'astray', just in the place where most civilians are.

comongethappy

Rightwing wrote: »

Israel humiliated in the ground war.

Empirical evidence or an opinion?

They took casualties, but relative to the numbers deployed it wasn't that high.

fran17

Rightwing wrote: »

I'd seriously fear for the folks in Gaza now. Israel humiliated in the ground war. Hadn't the bottle for it, soldiers were falling like flies.

Now, I'd suspect bombs will go 'astray', just in the place where most civilians are.

they don't even use "going astray" as a defence anymore.they are now indiscriminately bombing and shelling at will wherever and whenever they wish.and as long as Obama is giving the green light to this genocide it will escalate as the jews have now shown themselves very clearly to be without morals or conscience imo

Rightwing

comongethappy wrote: »

Empirical evidence or an opinion?

They took casualties, but relative to the numbers deployed it wasn't that high.

We'll look at the ratios of casualties civilans to soldiers

Israel: 1:21 1 civilian dead for every 21 soldiers

Palestinians: 10: 10 civilians dead for every 1 militant.

comongethappy

Rightwing wrote: »

We'll look at the ratios of casualties civilans to soldiers

Israel: 1:21 1 civilian dead for every 21 soldiers

Palestinians: 10: 10 civilians dead for every 1 militant.

Seeing as gazan militants aren't rolling through tel-aviv or jerusalem , the statistic is hardly relevant.

You will find US civilian deaths caused by the Taliban equally irrelevant.

I'm still not seeing how they've been humiliated?

If they withdraw, it isnt because they have been defeated

Rightwing

comongethappy wrote: »

Seeing as gazan militants aren't rolling through tel-aviv or jerusalem , the statistic is hardly relevant.

You will find US civilian deaths caused by the Taliban equally irrelevant.

I'm still not seeing how they've been humiliated?

If they withdraw, it isnt because they have been defeated

It's precisely because of that.

Do you honestly think they'd be withdrawing if they hadn't lost a soldier? They are falling like flies.

The bombs are replaceable, and America will willing replace them.

wes

Sand wrote: »

Because Ayelet Shaked is a member of the Jewish Home party, a hardline religious zionist party from the fringe of Israeli politics so they probably dont disapprove of her remarks?

A party that is a member of the government....... So hardly a fringe party.

Sand wrote: »

EDIT - I should also point out that Ayelet Shaked has claimed she has been smeared by Gideon Resnick (using reliable sources like Electronic Intifada) who took an article written 12 years ago by another man (not Ayelet Shaked), cherrypicking it for Hitler sounding bits, and sticking in a smear about her being a dumb female. She also points out that Resnick had to correct his earlier article by admitting she had not actually written the statements he accused her of making.

Fair enough, you have a link to where these claims were being made?

Sand wrote: »

If you're trying to demonstrate that some Israelis hold extremist, hateful views then I never denied that they do. However, the Jewish Home party is a tiny minority political group, and Ayelet Shaked is a single politician in it. They won 12 seats last time out - out of 120.

Now, now Sand, there still part of government, and can hardly be called a fringe party on that basis.

Sand wrote: »

All Hamas politicians agree with that call for genocide. Hamas's aims of genocide were endorsed massively by the Palestinian people, giving them 74 seats out of 132. Added to this is the wide support Hamas enjoys from sympathisers and supporters abroad, despite their genocidal aims.

Sand that is a lie, and you know its a lie, as you know full well that Hamas dropped the call for destruction from there election manifesto, and that is what the Palestinians voted on:

Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto

I know you are aware of the above, because it has been pointed out to you numerous time in the past. Why you choose to tell the above lie is beyond me. Did you think I would forget the above fact or something? That you wouldn't have your nonsense challenged?

Sand wrote: »

Whereas the remarks of Ayelet Shaked draw only minority, extremist support in Israel (and heavy criticism from others), the stated aims of Hamas draw massive electoral support in Palestine. And no criticism.

Sand wrote: »

Defended his comments from who? The Israelis who challenged him? His comments were idiotic, but he didn't actually call for rape to be employed as state policy.

And just being a university professor, he really hasn't got the political clout to do so.

He called for rape, and he still has his job..... That tells me a hell of a lot.

Sand wrote: »

Meanwhile, Hamas, with the massive support of the Palestinian voters, does have the clout to carry out their genocidal aims.

They don't have the ability to carry out genocidal aims, and we see the IDF actually carrying out there genocidal aims, all the while being defended by there band of apologists as per usual.

Sand wrote: »

As for Moshe Feiglin, again, the guy is a fringe element - describing him as a "member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party" is a wonderful obfuscation. You can be quite sure Netanyahu does not want him as a member of his party.

Utter nonsense Sand, he is Deputy Speaker of Knesset, that is not a fringe back bench position. Again, I have no idea why you keep making claims, that member of the government, and in this case the Deputy Speaker are some kind of fringe. They are not, they are mainstream.

As for Netanyahu, there is video of him gloating about putting an end to the Oslo peace process:
Netanyahu admits on video he deceived US to destroy Oslo accord

Using Netanyahu, as if he is some kind of moderate is laughable. The man is responsible for well over a 1000 deaths over the last few days, the most of them civilians. Has ordered the destruction of Palestinians infrastructure, which is causing shortages of food and clean water. A clear act of genocide, designed to kill as many Palestinian in Gaza as he can get away with.

Sand wrote: »

While he is a member of Likud, he is a member of a hard right, religious faction within Likud and has run against Netanyahu for leadership of the party in 2005 (enjoying a massive 12.5% support - risen to 23% on his most recent effort). Someone who Netanyahu tried to oppose standing for election by introducing a rule to bar Likud from fielding a candidate with a 3+ month prison sentence. And a guy so far off to the right of Israeli politics that he is actually on record as praising Hitler as as military genius who loved music and painted, raising Germany to an exemplary regime with proper justice and public order.

The guy is crazy. And there are enough crazy people in Israel that he can get elected. But that's about it. His influence ends there.

I fail to see how the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset can be described as a fringe element, and quite frankly that is one fact you can't dispute.

Sand wrote: »

Look Wes, you can go around and dig up wild claims by individuals in Israeli society.

Now, now Sand, there not just randomers off the street, but members of the governing coalition including the deputy speaker of the Knesset.

Sand wrote: »

There are certainly extremists in Israel, and those extremists enjoy minority support for their crazed views. However, those crazed views get criticised by the majority of Israelis who disagree with them.

The slaughter in Gaza is recieving wide spread support:

Israelis show overwhelming support for Operation Protective Edge

Sand wrote: »

And on the other hand I can always point to the official charter of Hamas which calls for genocide of Jews (not just Israelis mind, Jews),

There charter is all about Israel, seeing as they talk about Palestinians lands, and make no mention of killing all Jews the world over. Still a loathsome document regardless.

Still, right the IDF are murdering civilians, and we are at over a 1000. Action speak louder than any charter.

Sand wrote: »

and the mass support enjoyed by that charter by the Palestinian people and Hamas sympathisers abroad.

Repeating your lie, will not make it true.

Sand wrote: »

And how Hamas doesn't have to defend those views because no one in the Gaza Strip criticises them or denounces them.

Hamas, has a habit of clamping down on criticism of them.....

Sand wrote: »

I think mass support for genocide by a majority of Palestinians is a little more telling than Israeli extremists with minority support making stupid statements on facebook.

I think clear statement of genocidal intent from members of the Israeli government one of whom in fairness is apparently denying it, but there who isn't and is a deputy speak, who can't be called extreme, due to being a part of the government, and the clear genocide happening in Gaza as we speak is plenty of evidence.

On the other hand you deliberately and falsely claims a majority support for genocide from Palestinians, despite the fact that you know otherwise.

fran17

comongethappy wrote: »

Seeing as gazan militants aren't rolling through tel-aviv or jerusalem , the statistic is hardly relevant.

You will find US civilian deaths caused by the Taliban equally irrelevant.

I'm still not seeing how they've been humiliated?

If they withdraw, it isnt because they have been defeated

its not possible to humiliate them on the battlefield as they have adopted the same cowardly tactic as the u.s by murdering children from multiple kilometres away at sea and in the air.however they now have been exposed and humiliated to the world(excluding the u.s and britian of course) by these vile and inhuman actions

Rightwing

fran17 wrote: »

its not possible to humiliate them on the battlefield as they have adopted the same cowardly tactic as the u.s by murdering children from multiple kilometres away at sea and in the air.however they now have been exposed and humiliated to the world(excluding the u.s and britian of course) by these vile and inhuman actions

They have been humiliated and exposed.

If the yanks didn't arm them, they wouldn't have the stomach for a ground battle, and peaceful talks would begin. The only way out of this is to copy the North. Britain made concessions and everything fell into place.

Mr.Micro

Rightwing wrote: »

They have been humiliated and exposed.

If the yanks didn't arm them, they wouldn't have the stomach for a ground battle, and peaceful talks would begin. The only way out of this is to copy the North. Britain made concessions and everything fell into place.

It's hard to see that happening here. Israel is antagonistic by nature. If say tomorrow, the Gaza problem was sorted, then it's back to Iran again or maybe the Lebanon. It's thrives on confrontation. The US has lost all kudos, when it comes to peace making or negotiation. The Russians or Chinese, offer more credibility now than the US. You cannot continually back a country that murders at will, children, women and men, and then think you can condemn others for doing the same. It's hypocrisy of the highest order.

Sand

wes wrote: »

Fair enough, you have a link to where these claims were being made?

The link comes up as the second return on a google search for Ayelet Shaked so I cant imagine you searched that hard for it. But anyway:

Her response to Gideon's claim is here:

And Gideons original article is linked from that response piece and includes the rather embarrassing correction that the statements Gideon assigned to Shaked actually were made by another author 12 years ago.

Update: Since publishing, the article has been updated to further reflect that Shaked was not the original author of the words she shared in a Facebook post, but that rather Uri Elitzur wrote the words in an unpublished article.

Sand that is a lie, and you know its a lie, as you know full well that Hamas dropped the call for destruction from there election manifesto, and that is what the Palestinians voted on:

This is an interesting one because it demonstrates the bias again. I've already noted that I don't believe a majority of Israelis or Palestinians actually desire the genocide of the other.

But people draw wild, ridiculous conclusions about the Israeli state, let alone the Israeli people, having genocidal aims on the basis of ... a misreported facebook post, a professor saying something stupid in an interview, and a well known fringe extremist who is the enemy of the ruling faction in Israel. That sort of shaky evidence is used to make wild claims.

Meanwhile, Hamas, a terrorist organisation which calls for the genocide of Jews in its charter (election manifestos change and can change back - the charter remains) and *is* widely supported, returning a majority of seats and oh, no, its terrible to drawn any conclusion. Because facebook posts are what the Israeli people vote on, right? Whereas the Palestinians don't actually pay any attention to the actual charter of Hamas.

Do you guys ever step back and acknowledge the bias that is blinding your analysis of the situation?

This was apparently broadcast on July 25th by a Hamas controlled TV station. I dont speak Arabic, so I'm relying on the translation in the subtitles, but I'd be interested if you think its merely talking about "the Jews" and "exterminating" them, "not leaving even one" in a metaphorical sense?

He called for rape, and he still has his job..... That tells me a hell of a lot.

No he never actually called for rape. And the Israelis he was with immediately said it was not something they could ever do. Which should tell you enough. He just (stupidly) made a point about the macho culture of the middle east.

Utter nonsense Sand, he is Deputy Speaker of Knesset, that is not a fringe back bench position.

Can you, right now, without going to Google name the Leas-Cheann Comhairle?

Again, I have no idea why you keep making claims, that member of the government, and in this case the Deputy Speaker are some kind of fringe.

The government is led by Netanyahu. Netanyahu and this guy are huge political rivals, and Netanyahu has and continues to try to drive him out of Likud.

I know you have no idea why I favour an accurate telling of the story. I stated before - I have never encountered anyone who comes to try to understand the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, only people who want to pick a side and cheer it on. All heat, no light.

A clear act of genocide, designed to kill as many Palestinian in Gaza as he can get away with.

Yeah, someone takes your parking place. A clear act of genocide!

If you keep on throwing around that word carelessly, you're going to entirely devalue it.

@mufflets2

A previous poster was right you are an armchair critic just trying to be controversial.

Careful - I'm happy to discuss points of view with people but I need to see something interesting or mildly insightful in the response. Emotional posts all full of noise and no signal I wont respond to.

"Still calling for the fight to continue to the last Palestinian I see."

You do not applaud the Palestinian resistance efforts??
It is easy from your arm chair to criticise? Yes?
Or would you prefer if the Palestinians just lay down to the theft and slaughter???

Its ironic that you keep on going on about this arm chair thing. Google the phrase "England will fight to the last American". Then consider my statement that people are calling for the fight to go on to the last Palestinian.

Then consider, (from your armchair perhaps) why fanatical commitment to militant action from...ooh 4,076 kilometres away, whilst the Palestinians have to actually take the hits and losses that result from that militant action is problematic. Facebook post likes, and plastering photos of their dead kids, and so on doesn't actually help them - but I'm sure it makes people 4,076 KM away feel good and righteous. Which is what is important for them, I guess.

Any friend of the Palestinian people - indeed anyone with an ounce of humanity in them - should be calling for peace and discouraging militant action that can not lead to any success and can only lead to untold misery for the Palestinian people. It's important to stress - peace does not mean surrender. It means continuing the conflict by other means.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

This was apparently broadcast on July 25th by a Hamas controlled TV station. I dont speak Arabic, so I'm relying on the translation in the subtitles, but I'd be interested if you think its merely talking about "the Jews" and "exterminating" them, "not leaving even one" in a metaphorical sense?
.............

MEMRI? Really?

Rightwing

Sand wrote: »

The link comes up as the second return on a google search for Ayelet Shaked so I cant imagine you searched that hard for it. But anyway:

Her response to Gideon's claim is here:

And Gideons original article is linked from that response piece and includes the rather embarrassing correction that the statements Gideon assigned to Shaked actually were made by another author 12 years ago.

Update: Since publishing, the article has been updated to further reflect that Shaked was not the original author of the words she shared in a Facebook post, but that rather Uri Elitzur wrote the words in an unpublished article.



This is an interesting one because it demonstrates the bias again. I've already noted that I don't believe a majority of Israelis or Palestinians actually desire the genocide of the other.

But people draw wild, ridiculous conclusions about the Israeli state, let alone the Israeli people, having genocidal aims on the basis of ... a misreported facebook post, a professor saying something stupid in an interview, and a well known fringe extremist who is the enemy of the ruling faction in Israel. That sort of shaky evidence is used to make wild claims.

Meanwhile, Hamas, a terrorist organisation which calls for the genocide of Jews in its charter (election manifestos change and can change back - the charter remains) and *is* widely supported, returning a majority of seats and oh, no, its terrible to drawn any conclusion. Because facebook posts are what the Israeli people vote on, right? Whereas the Palestinians don't actually pay any attention to the actual charter of Hamas.

Do you guys ever step back and acknowledge the bias that is blinding your analysis of the situation?

This was apparently broadcast on July 25th by a Hamas controlled TV station. I dont speak Arabic, so I'm relying on the translation in the subtitles, but I'd be interested if you think its merely talking about "the Jews" and "exterminating" them, "not leaving even one" in a metaphorical sense?



No he never actually called for rape. And the Israelis he was with immediately said it was not something they could ever do. Which should tell you enough. He just (stupidly) made a point about the macho culture of the middle east.



Can you, right now, without going to Google name the Leas-Cheann Comhairle?



The government is led by Netanyahu. Netanyahu and this guy are huge political rivals, and Netanyahu has and continues to try to drive him out of Likud.

I know you have no idea why I favour an accurate telling of the story. I stated before - I have never encountered anyone who comes to try to understand the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, only people who want to pick a side and cheer it on. All heat, no light.



Yeah, someone takes your parking place. A clear act of genocide!

If you keep on throwing around that word carelessly, you're going to entirely devalue it.

@mufflets2


Careful - I'm happy to discuss points of view with people but I need to see something interesting or mildly insightful in the response. Emotional posts all full of noise and no signal I wont respond to.



Its ironic that you keep on going on about this arm chair thing. Google the phrase "England will fight to the last American". Then consider my statement that people are calling for the fight to go on to the last Palestinian.

Then consider, (from your armchair perhaps) why fanatical commitment to militant action from...ooh 4,076 kilometres away, whilst the Palestinians have to actually take the hits and losses that result from that militant action is problematic. Facebook post likes, and plastering photos of their dead kids, and so on doesn't actually help them - but I'm sure it makes people 4,076 KM away feel good and righteous. Which is what is important for them, I guess.

Any friend of the Palestinian people - indeed anyone with an ounce of humanity in them - should be calling for peace and discouraging militant action that can not lead to any success and can only lead to untold misery for the Palestinian people. It's important to stress - peace does not mean surrender. It means continuing the conflict by other means.

That's without doubt the most sensible and reasonable point you've made. I doubt the Israeli/Hamas terrorists care though

Sand

Nodin wrote: »

MEMRI? Really?

Electronic Intifada, really?

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

Electronic Intifada, really?

Did I post something from that site?

You might get back to me on this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91555650&postcount=311

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

...............

Any friend of the Palestinian people - indeed anyone with an ounce of humanity in them - should be calling for peace and discouraging militant action that can not lead to any success and can only lead to untold misery for the Palestinian people. It's important to stress - peace does not mean surrender. It means continuing the conflict by other means.

Do please outline what these "other means" are.

Sand

Nodin wrote: »

Did I post something from that site?

You might get back to me on this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91555650&postcount=311

Sorry Nodin, I've a fairly low tolerance for repetitive one line posts that take the form of a question. We should be having a discussion, I am not sitting an interview. So I must admit, I've been ignoring a lot of your comments as they fall below the minimum threshold for me to spend time responding to them.

Rightwing

A rather handy way out.

Chuckle chuckle.

esteve

Sand wrote: »

Sorry Nodin, I've a fairly low tolerance for repetitive one line posts that take the form of a question. We should be having a discussion, I am not sitting an interview. So I must admit, I've been ignoring a lot of your comments as they fall below the minimum threshold for me to spend time responding to them.

Wow, just wow.

You have avoided some questions of my own, or points of my own, cos how did you put it..'too much noise'. Or maybe cos i called you a name or something.

alastair

Sand wrote: »

The Israelis do have the psychological and political means to win a long war. They've certainly been winning the long war over the last 66 years.

Honestly lads, wakeup. Think.

Israel has been particularly poor on the long war. Given the opportunities wasted following on from Oslo by the antics of Sharon and Netanyahu, they're still painted into the corner where the only options open to them are a single state solution that kills off any chance of a future for a Jewish State, reconciling statehood for a Palestine that has Hamas as a government partner (a Hamas that Israel is partially responsible for fostering initially, and subsequently provided ample fuel to fan the fires of their support), or continuing a policy of illegal occupation, siege, oppression, and fostering new generations of threat to their state. Not a great record there.

Sand

Rightwing wrote: »

A rather handy way out.

Chuckle chuckle.

Well, I've two choices. Either respond to one line posts with a one line response, which would be flippant. Or not respond to them. I choose (mostly) not to respond to them.

@esteve

Wow, just wow.

You have avoided some questions of my own, or points of my own, cos how did you put it..'too much noise'. Or maybe cos i called you a name or something.

You're catching on. As I said before, you get more out me responding to your posts than I get from responding to yours. I don't have you on ignore though so if or when you post something interesting I might respond to it. Though I don't actually read your posts...so I wouldn't hold my breath.

esteve

Sand wrote: »

You're catching on. As I said before, you get more out me responding to your posts than I get from responding to yours. I don't have you on ignore though so if or when you post something interesting I might respond to it. Though I don't actually read your posts...so I wouldn't hold my breath.

So you don't engage in debate with me and pick and choose what you read on the issue and expect people to believe you are informed on the topic and not biased. You were only the other day quoting the Israel PR machine as a viable source.

I have asked you numerous questions regarding the issue and made some points but as you said, you simply ignore them. How can one take anything you post on here seriously if that is your stance?

Look i am so sorry for offending you personally the last time, now can we please debate the issue and just move on, this is not school.

esteve

Sand wrote: »

if or when you post something interesting I might respond to it..... Though I don't actually read your posts...

Im in a bit of a catch 22 here with you Sand. If i post something interesting you may engage me, but you do not read my posts so im at ends to understand how this works and how you will read what i post. Are these your rules of the forum (it must be interesting)? If that's the case then go set up your own webpage.

What i post does not have to be interesting to you or anybody, it has to be factual and on topic. I have made a few factual points that you simple ignored because they were not 'interesting'. Some level of debating skills there, god your credibility is just shining through here.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

Sorry Nodin, I've a fairly low tolerance for repetitive one line posts that take the form of a question. We should be having a discussion, I am not sitting an interview. So I must admit, I've been ignoring a lot of your comments as they fall below the minimum threshold for me to spend time responding to them.

Did I post something from the "Electronic Intifada" site?

Why do you keep talking about Gaza as if it represents the total of Palestinian politics?

Sand wrote:

Any friend of the Palestinian people - indeed anyone with an ounce of
humanity in them - should be calling for peace and discouraging militant action that can not lead to any success and can only lead to untold misery for the Palestinian people. It's important to stress - peace does not mean surrender. It means continuing the conflict by other means.

Do please outline what these "other means" are.

obplayer

Nodin wrote: »

Did I post something from the "Electronic Intifada" site?

Why do you keep talking about Gaza as if it represents the total of Palestinian politics?


Do please outline what these "other means" are.

Other means are for instance...
Continuing protests around the world at the conditions the Palestinians are living in.
Palestinians who are clearly un-armed attempting to walk through checkpoints and blockades on camera.
Where possible sit-down protests to block movement of Israeli traffic.
Negotiations for deals which have a realistic chance of being agreed to.
There are many others, read what Ghandi did. What Ghandi did not do was write a charter calling for the annihilation of Britain or the killing of every Brit in India.

Rightwing

obplayer wrote: »

Other means are for instance...
Continuing protests around the world at the conditions the Palestinians are living in.
Palestinians who are clearly un-armed attempting to walk through checkpoints and blockades on camera.
Where possible sit-down protests to block movement of Israeli traffic.
Negotiations for deals which have a realistic chance of being agreed to.
There are many others, read what Ghandi did. What Ghandi did not do was write a charter calling for the annihilation of Britain or the killing of every Brit in India.

Is this for real ? :rolleyes:

Tanks would drive over them. Bombs would land on their skulls. A 4 year infant could tell you that.

esteve

obplayer wrote: »

Continuing protests around the world at the conditions the Palestinians are living in.

Already happening, you should join one, people from all walks of life attend.

obplayer wrote: »

Palestinians who are clearly un-armed attempting to walk through checkpoints and blockades on camera.

Pregnant Palestinian women who are about to give birth have been held at checkpoints and not allowed past. Numerous reports of babies and mothers dying in the backs of cars/ambulances because they were not allowed through checkpoints.

obplayer wrote: »

Where possible sit-down protests to block movement of Israeli traffic.

I could imagine a group of Palestinians blocking Israeli traffic. They are already arrested for protesting and held without any rights.

obplayer wrote: »

Negotiations for deals which have a realistic chance of being agreed to.
There are many others, read what Ghandi did. What Ghandi did not do was write a charter calling for the annihilation of Britain or the killing of every Brit in India.

What Ghandi did was incredible, but the British Government were ready to negotiate and make concessions. Again, Hamas is not Palestine, Palestine is not Hamas.

Nodin

obplayer wrote: »

Other means are for instance...
Continuing protests around the world at the conditions the Palestinians are living in.
Palestinians who are clearly un-armed attempting to walk through checkpoints and blockades on camera..

That's been going on for many years.

Trying to walk through a checkpoint will result in beating, detention or death.

obplayer wrote: »

Where possible sit-down protests to block movement of Israeli traffic...

Going near a settler only road in the OT is the equivalent of deciding to become a suicide bomber without a bomb. And nobody outside of we usual suspects will give a crap.

obplayer wrote: »

Negotiations for deals which have a realistic chance of being agreed to.
...........

...such as?

shewasdiesel

obplayer wrote: »

Other means are for instance...
Continuing protests around the world at the conditions the Palestinians are living in.
Palestinians who are clearly un-armed attempting to walk through checkpoints and blockades on camera.
Where possible sit-down protests to block movement of Israeli traffic.
Negotiations for deals which have a realistic chance of being agreed to.
There are many others, read what Ghandi did. What Ghandi did not do was write a charter calling for the annihilation of Britain or the killing of every Brit in India.

Hamas would never alllow it, it would not suit their agenda in the slightest.

The SDLP tried this in NI and SF very successfully succeeded in destroying them and intimidating anyone who openly supported the SDLP and peaceful means.

Nodin

shewasdiesel wrote: »

Hamas would never alllow it, it would not suit their agenda in the slightest.
The SDLP tried this in NI and SF succeeded in destroying them and intimidating anyone who openly supported them.

....there's rather more to the whole thing than Gaza and Hamas.

shewasdiesel

Nodin wrote: »

....there's rather more to the whole thing than Gaza and Hamas.

Of course there is, but somehow, I don't think your one liner, or any post in this thread, will succeeded in covering it either.

Rightwing

shewasdiesel wrote: »

Of course there is, but somehow, I don't think your one liner, or any post in this thread, will succeeded in covering it either.

But asking a punter to sit on a road blocking Israeli traffic is akin to asking a jew sit on the road in Nazi Germany.

Ranks as the dumbest thing I've ever read. And I've read fairly dumb things.

Nodin

shewasdiesel wrote: »

Of course there is, but somehow, I don't think your one liner, or any post in this thread, will succeeded in covering it either.

No idea what that's supposed to mean. There's been a radically different strategy pursued in the West Bank for many years now, yet you and others seem fixated on Hamas and Gaza.

shewasdiesel

Rightwing wrote: »

But asking a punter to sit on a road blocking Israeli traffic is akin to asking a jew sit on the road in Nazi Germany.

Ranks as the dumbest thing I've ever read. And I've read fairly dumb things.

Then perhaps you'd be a bit smarter and direct that at the people advocating it