The Big Question: United vs Liverpool - Read Mod Note in OP

PhlegmyMoses

Cyrus wrote: »

Shaw better than moreno? very little in it so far this season, rafael over johnson? bad as glenjo has been, no thanks, blind over gerrard, nope, fellani and henderson is a toss up, leave it out, sterling easily gets one of the spots behind rvp aswell, most likely matas

Shaw has been quite qood for United and has the added bonus of having a very good PL year under his belt. Rafael is better than Johnson. Blind and Carrick are better than Gerrard in a deep lying midfield role. Nobody is saying that Gerrard at his peak doesn't wipe the floor with them, he's just on the wane and in the wrong position.

Henderson had a great year for Pool last year, Fellaini needs to keep up his run of form. I'm going fot Henderson there. Sterling gets no spot in a team with Rooney, Di Maria, Mata, Falcao and RVP. Maybe if you are playing 4231 he gets onto the wing. Potentially world class player though, imo.

United are stronger in all departments tbh, you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Same way Chelsea are objectively stronger than United in all departments. Doesn't mean you can't win.

Cyrus

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Shaw has been quite qood for United and has the added bonus of having a very good PL year under his belt. Rafael is better than Johnson. Blind and Carrick are better than Gerrard in a deep lying midfield role. Nobody is saying that Gerrard at his peak doesn't wipe the floor with them, he's just on the wane and in the wrong position.

Henderson had a great year for Pool last year, Fellaini needs to keep up his run of form. I'm going fot Henderson there. Sterling gets no spot in a team with Rooney, Di Maria, Mata, Falcao and RVP. Maybe if you are playing 4231 he gets onto the wing. Potentially world class player though, imo.

United are stronger in all departments tbh, you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Same way Chelsea are objectively stronger than United in all departments. Doesn't mean you can't win.

united are stronger in the top 3rd, thats it, no delusion here.

brevity

bucketybuck wrote: »

Today? Or two years ago?

Two years ago, when RVP was at his best.

The Moldy Gowl

I wouldn't mind Gerard for the bench.

Rayne Wooney

It's stretching it a bit saying RVP, Rooney and Suarez would have started tbh

Reality is Suarez would have been on the bench and come in for Rooney when he hit his poor patch

Chucky the tree

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's stretching it a bit saying RVP, Rooney and Suarez would have started tbh

Reality is Suarez would have been on the bench and come in for Rooney when he hit his poor patch

Tbh I don't think he would have even made the bench ahead of Welbeck.

Cyrus

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Tbh I don't think he would have even made the bench ahead of Welbeck.

or Bebe

Backstreet Moyes

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's stretching it a bit saying RVP, Rooney and Suarez would have started tbh

Reality is Suarez would have been on the bench and come in for Rooney when he hit his poor patch

Please stop i love Rooney and RVP and but United fan who says Suarez wouldn't have started for United is blind.

Iused2likebusts

bucketybuck wrote: »

It would be reasonable, but then he is up against the other world class striker United had in that season, Wayne Rooney. Would United fans have dropped Rooney for Suarez the year before last? I doubt it.

Don't forget we aren't talking last season when Suarez was world class, we are talking the season before when he was just very good.

That season bale rvp and Suarez were the best 3 players in the league . Rooney only had a decent season and was left on the bench against Madrid.

Rooney isn't in the same category as Suarez. He has never matched what Suarez did last season and never will now as his peak has come and gone.

PhlegmyMoses

Cyrus wrote: »

united are stronger in the top 3rd, thats it, no delusion here.

There is delusion though. Rafael is an objectively better RB than Johnson. Carrick and Blind are objectively better DMs than anything at Liverpool.

Liverpool's defence is objectively worse than United's. They've conceded more this season and were one off each oter last season despite 5 league places between them and Liverpool being in great form.... and United have been reliant on youth products this year. Whether this is down to individuals or the manager is another question but Lovren, Toure and Sakho have looked very dodgy this season.

The AM position is Coutinho and Lallana vrs Rooney and Mata, United win here also.

There is no shame in admitting this, like, I can easily admit that Chelsea and City have objectively more quality in their sides than United.

PhlegmyMoses

rarnes1 wrote: »

Rooney isn't in the same category as Suarez. He has never matched what Suarez did last season and never will now as his peak has come and gone.

Still going with the definitive "peak" thing I see. Bizarre stuff.

brevity

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's stretching it a bit saying RVP, Rooney and Suarez would have started tbh

Reality is Suarez would have been on the bench and come in for Rooney when he hit his poor patch

Who wouldn't want that set up! Would be world class front line. Both Rooney and Suarez defending form the front means that there wouldn't that much sacrifice on the midfield position.

PhlegmyMoses

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Still going with the definitive "peak" thing I see. Bizarre stuff.

Ok, we'll change the wording of peaked to, his best days are behind him.

It's hardly a controversial opinion

Chucky the tree

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

There is delusion though. Rafael is an objectively better RB than Johnson. Carrick and Blind are objectively better DMs than anything at Liverpool. B]

Liverpool's defence is objectively worse than United's. They've conceded more this season and were one off each oter last season despite 5 league places between them and Liverpool being in great form.... and United have been reliant on youth products this year. Whether this is down to individuals or the manager is another question but Lovren, Toure and Sakho have looked very dodgy this season.

The AM position is Coutinho and Lallana vrs Rooney and Mata, United win here also.

There is no shame in admitting this, like, I can easily admit that Chelsea and City have objectively more quality in their sides than United.

I'd easily have Lucas over Carrick, no doubt in my mind about that.

Chucky the tree

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I'd easily have Lucas over Carrick, no doubt in my mind about that.

Yeah, I presumed he was joking.

It's not even close

RasTa

Lucas is still the best DM and passer of the ball in the Liverpool squad I see.

RasTa

RasTa wrote: »

Lucas is still the best DM and passer of the ball in the Liverpool squad I see.

Best DM. That's hardly up for debate.

Thought it was fairly obvious

Backstreet Moyes

I can't figure out the confidence from United fans here.

Won the last four games but hardly doing anything that impressive.

bucketybuck

rarnes1 wrote: »

Best DM. That's hardly up for debate.

Thought it was fairly obvious

Brendan Rodgers didn't seem to think so.

The Moldy Gowl

Nuts102 wrote: »

I can't figure out the confidence from United fans here.

Won the last four games but hardly doing anything that impressive.

It's more the quality of the players and the progress in how they set up.

If tom cleverly and Anderson and Valencia were playing in midfield with Welbeck up top it would be a different story

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

Brendan Rodgers didn't seem to think so.

That's because he had two guys up top banging in goals.

Take them out and the leaking of goals is fully exposed.

Rodgers has finally copped on I guess.

Rayne Wooney

A player being past his peak or not is really irrelevant when said player can score 17 goals and assist 10 whilst playing essentially as an attacking midfielder

rob316

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's stretching it a bit saying RVP, Rooney and Suarez would have started tbh

Reality is Suarez would have been on the bench and come in for Rooney when he hit his poor patch

Suarez on the bench over Rooney??? Thankfully all united fans aren't this delusional. United have some great players no doubt but Rooney isn't even comparable to Suarez.

Liam O

Nuts102 wrote: »

I can't figure out the confidence from United fans here.

Won the last four games but hardly doing anything that impressive.

Hull were bad but that was as comprehensive a performance I've seen from United in a long time. That's given me a lot of confidence on what this team is capable of. There's people in here saying the difference between United and Liverpool's defence and midfield is nothing despite United being one of the best defenses in England recently and habing conceded 2 or more goals 3 times in the league this season without ever having their first choice defence to Liverpool's 6 with virtually no injuries at the back that even come close to United. United are still capable of falling apart yes but it's happening less and less and the defence is starting to show they can be relied on to grind out results. Something Liverpool under Rodgers have never been able to do.

Rayne Wooney

rob316 wrote: »

Suarez on the bench over Rooney??? Thankfully all united fans aren't this delusional. United have some great players no doubt but Rooney isn't even comparable to Suarez.

Cmon man, at least read what people are talking about before jumping in and looking foolish

By Christmas of the title winning season Suarez had 11 goals, Rooney had 7 but was creating a lot. There would have been no reason to swap Rooney for Suarez until he hit that bad patch.

ThunbergsAreGo

Liam O wrote: »

Hull were bad but that was as comprehensive a performance I've seen from United in a long time. That's given me a lot of confidence on what this team is capable of. There's people in here saying the difference between United and Liverpool's defence and midfield is nothing despite United being one of the best defenses in England recently and habing conceded 2 or more goals 3 times in the league this season without ever having their first choice defence to Liverpool's 6 with virtually no injuries at the back that even come close to United. United are still capable of falling apart yes but it's happening less and less and the defence is starting to show they can be relied on to grind out results. Something Liverpool under Rodgers have never been able to do.

The last two results have most certainly been ground out

rob316

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Cmon man, at least read what people are talking about before jumping in and looking foolish

By Christmas of the title winning season Suarez had 11 goals, Rooney had 7 but was creating a lot. There would have been no reason to swap Rooney for Suarez until he hit that bad patch.

Why wouldn't you play all 3? I'm sorry but leaving a player like Suarez on the bench at any club in the world would be ridiculous. Plenty reason to think Suarez would play ahead of Rooney, he's a far better player and you don't need me to explain why.
Rooney isn't capable of Suarez level.

Its also worth mentioning that Suarez up to nearly 2 years ago played with some pretty poor players at Liverpool while Rooney has always had one world class partner in attack.

PhlegmyMoses

Lucas over Carrick? Always baffled me how underrated Carrick is. Lucas hasn't been a serious fixture in the Pool team for two years and he's suddenly better than the ever-present Michael Carrick. Words fail me.

Actually, I'm out. I've spent too much time listening to Liverpool fans tell me that their players are better but United still somehow manage to outperform them year on year.

Lucas...ah here....this a funny auld thread

Cyrus

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Lucas...ah here....this a funny auld thread

indeed

what with all the chat of a 'world class' rooney, an under rated carrick and this rafael guy who is apparently one of uniteds best players

rob316

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Lucas...ah here....this a funny auld thread

Ruined by a bad knee injury. He dominated many a top midfield in the Prem and was the first name on the team sheet up till then. Very underrated he was then.
Carrick isn't even the same type player so its pointless comparing, and while he is a good player, he is average by European standards as ye found out many a time in the last few years.
He is rated at United because for the size of ye're club ye had a deplorable midfield for years under Ferguson and he was just the best of a bad bunch. If ye had bought, Strootman, Modric, Snjeider or any other top midfielder, ye wouldn't give a second thought about Carrick.

Liam O

Rooney isn't capable of Suarez standards except for you know, those seasons where he was at Suarez standards. My favourite was when he dragged United to a Champions league final that nobody remembers seemingly.

Carrick average by European standards, 1 CL and 2 finals as first choice centre mid...then again midfield isn't that important a position right?

Cyrus

Liam O wrote: »

Rooney isn't capable of Suarez standards except for you know, those seasons where he was at Suarez standards. My favourite was when he dragged United to a Champions league final that nobody remembers seemingly.

Carrick average by European standards, 1 CL and 2 finals as first choice centre mid...then again midfield isn't that important a position right?

oh, must mean that john arne riise is also a world beater then?

as he too boasts 1 Cl and 2 finals

Liam O

Liam O wrote: »

Rooney isn't capable of Suarez standards except for you know, those seasons where he was at Suarez standards. My favourite was when he dragged United to a Champions league final that nobody remembers seemingly.

Carrick average by European standards, 1 CL and 2 finals as first choice centre mid...then again midfield isn't that important a position right?

That's all in the past.

Rooney was never as good as Suarez. Carrick is probably finished as a Utd player

PhlegmyMoses

rarnes1 wrote: »

That's all in the past.

Rooney was never as good as Suarez. Carrick is probably finished as a Utd player

Carrick will be ever present in the team this year and will out perform most midfielders in the league again this year. Already one of our best players since his return. You're having a mare.

redzerdrog

The reality is combine both defences and midfields and you still fall short of what Chelsea and city have to offer.

Argueing if you would rather have shaw or johnson or rojo or skrtel is like argue weather you would rather a kick in the nuts or a punch in the nuts

Liam O

I guess this is Rooney's first season without the CL whereas Suarez has had to put up with that hardship of not playing as much as well as a nice 2 month holiday every season.

LuckyLloyd

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Lucas over Carrick? Always baffled me how underrated Carrick is. Lucas hasn't been a serious fixture in the Pool team for two years and he's suddenly better than the ever-present Michael Carrick. Words fail me.

Actually, I'm out. I've spent too much time listening to Liverpool fans tell me that their players are better but United still somehow manage to outperform them year on year.

Except last year obv.

PhlegmyMoses

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Except last year obv.

Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, 3 times is an enemy action :pac:

Liam O

Liam O wrote: »

I guess this is Rooney's first season without the CL whereas Suarez has had to put up with that hardship of not playing as much as well as a nice 2 month holiday every season.

And yet Rooney has missed 25% of league games the past two seasons. How will that fit into your argument Liam?

MR NINE

This thread has some farcical opinions.

Suarez would get into any team in the world, possibly one or two debatable exceptions, but utd certainly arent one of them.

Glen johnson being placed in a combined 11 is ludicrous considering theres very few liverpool fans who even want him in their own starting 11.

With regards to the upcoming game id be surpried if united didnt win, as much as it pains me to say it. Like it or not, they are in good form and have a better team.

With regards to the season i think utd and arsenal are strong favourites for 3rd and 4th but Liverpool are definitely still in with a reasonable chance. All three teams are fragile, but utd and arsenal have much better attacking options and depth to compensate for their failings.

I usually think combined 11s are quite a silly idea, especially with these two sides where a lot of the positions are being filled by virtue of being the best of a bad bunch. De gea is clearly the winner in goals. In defense there isnt a single player from either side that can be reasonably assured of their place in the team. Overall uniteds defensive options are better, though that aint saying much given how poor liverpools are, but i dont think theres a single united defender that stands clearly above the other options and all of them could easily be excluded from a united 11, never mind a combined 11. Midfield is again much of a muchness, any one from blind herrera carrick henderson gerrard fellaini lallana or lucas could be included depending on form and formation. Personally, given the gulf in quality between attack and other areas of the pitch, id opt for di maria as a midfielder as he is head and shoulders above any other option. Up front there is a lot to choose from, and once again it would depend on form and formation. Sterling sturridge rvp rooney falcao and mata are all quality options. Utd have better depth but i would argue that any front three from that combination will be pretty much as good as any other combination, provided people are being played in suitable positions.

Liam O

rarnes1 wrote: »

And yet Rooney has missed 25% of league games the past two seasons. How will that fit into your argument Liam?

Are you really going to be ignorant enough to compare injuries to being suspended? Ugh, I'm out too.

MR NINE

redzerdrog wrote: »

Argueing if you would rather have shaw or johnson or rojo or skrtel is like argue weather you would rather a kick in the nuts or a punch in the nuts

well said, neither team has a defender worth bragging about

Rayne Wooney

It's strange hearing about the "levels" Suarez reached last season as it's always backed up/followed by the goals he scored

Last time Rooney played up front for a season he scored 27 in the league, 45% of these against the top 8 compared to Suarez with just 22.5%(3 against Spurs, 2 against Everton and 1 at Southampton and United). Goals against the bottom 8 is 37% for Rooney and a staggering 65% for Suarez. Interesting reading all the same for anyone who superciliously states Rooney never hit these "levels"

Suarez never did it against the big teams in fairness...

Rayne Wooney

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's strange hearing about the "levels" Suarez reached last season as it's always backed up/followed by the goals he scored

Last time Rooney played up front for a season he scored 27 in the league, 45% of these against the top 8 compared to Suarez with just 22.5%(3 against Spurs, 2 against Everton and 1 at Southampton and United). Goals against the bottom 8 is 37% for Rooney and a staggering 65% for Suarez. Interesting reading all the same for anyone who superciliously states Rooney never hit these "levels"

As you're a stats man, that famous season for Rooney, 6 of his 27 goals were pens, that's 22%.

Fairly sure Suarez scored none but I'd imagine scoring 10 less outfield goals will still be contrived as a better season..

Cantona's Collars

Isn't the question in the op about the current teams,so why are we talking about a player who's at Barca now?

zerks

zerks wrote: »

Isn't the question in the op about the current teams,so why are we talking about a player who's at Barca now?

No idea.

Fairly sure the other chap brought it up.

I'm also fairly sure mentioning previous players is allowed in a general discussion

Donnielighto

Cyrus wrote: »

serious as cancer

you didnt say rhythm is dancer?