The Big Question: United vs Liverpool - Read Mod Note in OP

Rayne Wooney

rarnes1 wrote: »

As you're a stats man, that famous season for Rooney, 6 of his 27 goals were pens, that's 22%.

Fairly sure Suarez scored none but I'd imagine scoring 10 less outfield goals will still be contrived as a better season..

If I'm not mistaken even taking away the penalties would still have it in Rooney's favour

10 extra goals but 6 less points obtained from them which would have been fairly invaluable for Liverpool last season

Rayne Wooney

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken even taking away the penalties would still have it in Rooney's favour

10 extra goals but 6 less points obtained from them which would have been fairly invaluable for Liverpool last season

Ok so we have established that 27 goals, 6 of which were pens is a better achievement than 31 goals and no pens.

Moving on to assists, I'm guessing Rooney's 4 was better than Suarez 13?

Ps, did you actually total the points of every goal scored from Rooney and Suarez? Pens and no pens? I'm gonna have to ask for proof.

Giggsy11

rarnes1 wrote: »

That's all in the past.

Rooney was never as good as Suarez. Carrick is probably finished as a Utd player

I think this is the 3rd United player you said past his peak. Mata, Rooney and Carrick. If you said about RVP then it would have made some sense, saying these 3 are past their peak or finished as United players is rubbish.

Giggsy11

Giggsy11 wrote: »

I think this is the 3rd United player you said past his peak. Mata, Rooney and Carrick. If you said about RVP then it would have made some sense, saying these 3 are past their peak or finished as United players is rubbish.

I'd imagine when they have superior seasons than their best it'll be shoved back in my face.

Wouldn't hold my breath though

Soft Falling Rain

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's stretching it a bit saying RVP, Rooney and Suarez would have started tbh

Reality is Suarez would have been on the bench and come in for Rooney when he hit his poor patch

Lol

Giggsy11

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'd imagine when they have superior seasons than their best it'll be shoved back in my face.

Wouldn't hold my breath though

Why do you consider the best season only? That logic means any player will have only 1 peak year. If Henderson's performance this season is not as good as last season then does that mean he is on decline?

if Rooney scores around 15 goals and 15 assists then it would be great eventhough it's not good as his best season.

Rayne Wooney

rarnes1 wrote: »

Ok so we have established that 27 goals, 6 of which were pens is a better achievement than 31 goals and no pens.

Moving on to assists, I'm guessing Rooney's 4 was better than Suarez 13?

Ps, did you actually total the points of every goal scored from Rooney and Suarez? Pens and no pens? I'm gonna have to ask for proof.

I never said that in fairness, you came to that conclusion from my other post that showed Rooney scored twice as much percentage wise against the top 8 than Suarez. Apparently hitting "levels" entails scoring more against bottom of the league when they are already dead and buried in some cases

Yeah winning goals and equalising goals were all counted, Suarez could take credit directly for 22 points and Rooney 28. I'm sure if that's off someone will point it out

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I never said that in fairness, you came to that conclusion from my other post that showed Rooney scored twice as much percentage wise against the top 8 than Suarez. Apparently hitting "levels" entails scoring more against bottom of the league when they are already dead and buried in some cases

Yeah winning goals and equalising goals were all counted, Suarez could take credit directly for 22 points and Rooney 28. I'm sure if that's off someone will point it out

Do you think Rooney of the last 2 seasons is better than suarez and Aguero.

Rayne Wooney

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Do you think Rooney of the last 2 seasons is better than suarez and Aguero.

Broaden that to 3 seasons since Aguero joined the league and I'd say you could make a good argument for Rooney being better or at least just as good

over the last two seasons Suarez was better than both

Rayne Wooney

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I never said that in fairness, you came to that conclusion from my other post that showed Rooney scored twice as much percentage wise against the top 8 than Suarez. Apparently hitting "levels" entails scoring more against bottom of the league when they are already dead and buried in some cases

Yeah winning goals and equalising goals were all counted, Suarez could take credit directly for 22 points and Rooney 28. I'm sure if that's off someone will point it out

Link to those calculations?

Curious to see

Giggsy11

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Why do you consider the best season only? That logic means any player will have only 1 peak year. If Henderson's performance this season is not as good as last season then does that mean he is on decline?

if Rooney scores around 15 goals and 15 assists then it would be great eventhough it's not good as his best season.

You think Carrick will top the high of a few years ago?

Mata hasn't shown consistent form as good as his Chelsea days. Mourinho played a blinder selling him for so much.

Rooney in the one that could be argued that near his best but imo he was better a few years ago.

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Broaden that to 3 seasons since Aguero joined the league and I'd say you could make a good argument for Rooney being better or at least just as good

over the last two seasons Suarez was better than both

So by that logic suarez wouldve got in the utd team the last 2 years. Glad you cleared that up.

Giggsy11

rarnes1 wrote: »

You think Carrick will top the high of a few years ago?

Mata hasn't shown consistent form as good as his Chelsea days. Mourinho played a blinder selling him for so much.

Rooney in the one that could be argued that near his best but imo he was better a few years ago.

Carrick's best form was not few years ago, it was just 2 years ago. In our title winning season he was very good. Last season is not the best season to judge any ManUtd players.

This season as soon as Carrick started playing we looked more solid.

Mata, Jose did really well to get 37 Million but that was always the case when the players are transferred among big clubs which is very rare in England. I agree that he is not playing as well as he did at Chelsea but saying 26 year old player who is technically very good is past his peak is just wrong.He is just having a rough year which happens to most players.

Rooney's case people always say he was better in the past but then in 'that past' people said he was better in the past.

Backstreet Moyes

Aguero is the best player in the league by a distance and if Suarez was still their that would still be the same.

An injury free Aguero is clearly the third best player in the world and the one who takes over from Messi and Ronaldo.

Mr Alan

Nuts102 wrote: »

Aguero is the best player in the league by a distance and if Suarez was still their that would still be the same.

An injury free Aguero is clearly the third best player in the world and the one who takes over from Messi and Ronaldo.

Nope

Giggsy11

Nuts102 wrote: »

Aguero is the best player in the league by a distance and if Suarez was still their that would still be the same.

An injury free Aguero is clearly the third best player in the world and the one who takes over from Messi and Ronaldo.

Robben is better and Neymar is also scoring many goals now.

smileyj1987

MR NINE wrote: »

well said, neither team has a defender worth bragging about

Which one can make the biggest f**k up in a game ? That could be a new argument ?

Liam O

smileyj1987 wrote: »

Which one can make the biggest f**k up in a game ? That could be a new argument ?

Well considering there hasn't been a major fúck up for United in about 2 months and none in the last 6 games at least anyway I don't know why statements like this are coming up. Like I said United's defence has been very good all things considered recently but nobody seems to accept that for some ignorant reason.

Space would have been made for Suarez at United but he wouldn't have been starting in the middle when players weren't injured. He more than likely would have been a wing forward like Welbeck's played a lot.

Iused2likebusts

Liam O wrote: »

Well considering there hasn't been a major fúck up for United in about 2 months and none in the last 6 games at least anyway I don't know why statements like this are coming up. Like I said United's defence has been very good all things considered recently but nobody seems to accept that for some ignorant reason.

Space would have been made for Suarez at United but he wouldn't have been starting in the middle when players weren't injured. He more than likely would have been a wing forward like Welbeck's played a lot.

A lot of chances haven't been punished to be fair. The arsenal stoke Everton West ham even crystal palace game could have turned out very different. Some really bad misses and some unbelievable saves by ddg. Pretty sure there was a lot of defensive cock ups in those games.

Liam O

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

A lot of chances haven't been punished to be fair. The arsenal stoke Everton West ham even crystal palace game could have turned out very different. Some really bad misses and some unbelievable saves by ddg. Pretty sure there was a lot of defensive cock ups in those games.

This is the Crystal palace game that United had 23 shots to Palace's 6 and one on target? The Arsenal game that was nearly 3-0 but for Di Maria having a mental block when 1 on 1? In every one of those games United were the better team bar Arsenal and have as much right to be angry about things not going better in those games for them as the opposition. In the last 6 games United haven't conceded 2 goals in a game. That's recent form and is up there with anyone.

Cyrus

Liam O wrote: »

This is the Crystal palace game that United had 23 shots to Palace's 6 and one on target? The Arsenal game that was nearly 3-0 but for Di Maria having a mental block when 1 on 1? In every one of those games United were the better team bar Arsenal and have as much right to be angry about things not going better in those games for them as the opposition. In the last 6 games United haven't conceded 2 goals in a game. That's recent form and is up there with anyone.

liam is back great

you might address the riise carrick 2 cl final and one cl medal analogy :pac:

Iused2likebusts

Liam O wrote: »

This is the Crystal palace game that United had 23 shots to Palace's 6 and one on target? The Arsenal game that was nearly 3-0 but for Di Maria having a mental block when 1 on 1? In every one of those games United were the better team bar Arsenal and have as much right to be angry about things not going better in those games for them as the opposition. In the last 6 games United haven't conceded 2 goals in a game. That's recent form and is up there with anyone.

You said they had no defensive cock ups there has been they have just gone unpunished. I didn't say anything about deserving or not deserving to win individual matches. Some times you can lose a game 1 0 with one bad defensive mistake that gets punished.

Liam O

Cyrus wrote: »

liam is back great

you might address the riise carrick 2 cl final and one cl medal analogy :pac:

Why would I address something as idiotic as that?

Liam O

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

You said they had no defensive cock ups there has been they have just gone unpunished. I didn't say anything about deserving or not deserving to win individual matches. Some times you can lose a game 1 0 with one bad defensive mistake that gets punished.

Every team has defensive cock ups, it's about limiting them which United have been doing, against the best teams in the league recently too. I'd be more worried about the attack not doing better than they have than the defense.

Cyrus

Liam O wrote: »

Why would I address something as idiotic as that?

Indeed

Glad you realise that your point was idiotic

quarryman

On the question of Suarez vs Aguero.

Aguero is and always had been the better player. No baggage. big match player - scores very important goals. Tends not to bite other players. Stays on his feet, unlike Suarez.

The only aspect Suarez has over him is that he is less injury prone.

Montroseee

quarryman wrote: »

On the question of Suarez vs Aguero.

Aguero is and always had been the better player. No baggage. big match player - scores very important goals. Tends not to bite other players. Stays on his feet, unlike Suarez.

The only aspect Suarez has over him is that he is less injury prone.

This is quite a large issue IMO, Aguero really is very injury prone. Even as UTD. fan and taking everything into account, I'd have Suarez over Aguero. I do agree that Sergio is ever so slightly better though.

quarryman

Montroseee wrote: »

This is quite a large issue IMO, Aguero really is very injury prone. Even as UTD. fan and taking everything into account, I'd have Suarez over Aguero. I do agree that Sergio is ever so slightly better though.

Indeed. Take the injury factor out of the equation and it's a no brainer. Aguero is stronger, a better finisher and a better professional. But at times he seems to be made of glass.

niallo27

quarryman wrote: »

Indeed. Take the injury factor out of the equation and it's a no brainer. Aguero is stronger, a better finisher and a better professional. But at times he seems to be made of glass.

I don't know. Would augero score 30 plus goals in a liverpool side. Take a few bites out of it there was no player more committed to their side in training and on the field.

Oranage2

Aguero is the better person but you can't underplay how little Suarez gets injured.

Skylinehead

niallo27 wrote: »

I don't know. Would augero score 30 plus goals in a liverpool side.

If he stayed fit, yes. The man can score from anything, half his goals are from stupid angles where the chance is barely on.

niallo27

Skylinehead wrote: »

If he stayed fit, yes. The man can score from anything, half his goals are from stupid angles where the chance is barely on.

He has never scored over 20 in league winning sides. Only 12 last year and City scored over a 100.

quarryman

niallo27 wrote: »

I don't know. Would augero score 30 plus goals in a liverpool side. Take a few bites out of it there was no player more committed to their side in training and on the field.

Suarez was only committed to Liverpool as long as they were in the Champions League.

In his own words: "If we failed to qualify for the Champions League the following season I'd be allowed to go".

I don't doubt Aguero would have similar ambitions but let's not claim Suarez was playing for the badge on the pitch or in training. Paolo Maldini he ain't.

bucketybuck

Oranage2 wrote: »

Aguero is the better person but you can't underplay how little Suarez gets injured.

You can when he spends so much time on the sidelines for other reasons.

niallo27

quarryman wrote: »

Suarez was only committed to Liverpool as long as they were in the Champions League.

In his own words: "If we failed to qualify for the Champions League the following season I'd be allowed to go".

I don't doubt Aguero would have similar ambitions but let's not claim Suarez was playing for the badge on the pitch or in training. Paolo Maldini he ain't.

While he played for liverpool he never gave less than 100%. You can't ask anymore of a player. Don't let your hate of the club cloud your judgement.

quarryman

quarryman wrote: »

Suarez was only committed to Liverpool as long as they were in the Champions League.

In his own words: "If we failed to qualify for the Champions League the following season I'd be allowed to go".

I don't doubt Aguero would have similar ambitions but let's not claim Suarez was playing for the badge on the pitch or in training. Paolo Maldini he ain't.

Commitment to the team on the pitch isn't hard to differentiate from commitment to the club long term, I would have thought.

Rayne Wooney

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

So by that logic suarez wouldve got in the utd team the last 2 years. Glad you cleared that up.

I'm glad we've cleared up you don't understand how to average.

As I've said the season United won the title up until Christmas Suarez wouldn't have replaced RVP or Rooney. Don't let last season cloud any of the previous sentence.

Godge

niallo27 wrote: »

While he played for liverpool he never gave less than 100%. You can't ask anymore of a player. Don't let your hate of the club cloud your judgement.

Nobody doubts that.

However, that isn't everything. Robbie Keane is mocked for his "like a dream come true" whenever he joins a new club, breaks an international record or gets an award, most recently the MVP award. He never gave less than 100% when on the pitch for whichever of the many clubs he paid for. But is he an LA legend, a Spurs legend, a Wolves legend? Not a chance.

Similarly Suarez never gives less than 100% but Liverpool was too small a stage for him as Ajax was before that, so he moved on.

Skylinehead

niallo27 wrote: »

He has never scored over 20 in league winning sides. Only 12 last year and City scored over a 100.

I think the first four words of my post covers this.

Rayne Wooney

rarnes1 wrote: »

Link to those calculations?

Curious to see

It only takes a decent stat site and some time, if someone hasn't confirmed or disproved it by tonight I'll look it up again

If it's true there is only one question I need to ask, if Rooney played for Liverpool and hit that form resulting in a league title win from the 6 extra points and Suarez played for United and scored 31 goals would liverpool supporters be saying Suarez performed better? That is a question that doesn't need an answer, because everyone knows what the answer is even if some won't admit it

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I'm glad we've cleared up you don't understand how to average.

As I've said the season United won the title up until Christmas Suarez wouldn't have replaced RVP or Rooney. Don't let last season cloud any of the previous sentence.

It's strange though because now an out of form rvp and a recovering from injury Falcao are shunting rooney into midfield . However a bang in form suarez would have sat on the bench. Suarez wouldve played week in week out at Utd I don't know why you just can't admit it. In the scheme of things does it really matter that much to you that you just can't admit the odd time that maybe some liverpool players are a little better than some of their counterparts at Utd.

Rayne Wooney

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

It's strange though because now an out of form rvp and a recovering from injury Falcao are shunting rooney into midfield . However a bang in form suarez would have sat on the bench. Suarez wouldve played week in week out at Utd I don't know why you just can't admit it. In the scheme of things does it really matter that much to you that you just can't admit the odd time that maybe some liverpool players are a little better than some of their counterparts at Utd.

Why are you talking about Falcao he wasn't at United two years ago, I don't think you realise what this discussion is about. Blinkers on seeing "Suarez" "not" "United" "team" and just going with that

And shunting Rooney into midfield because from midfield he can still score 17 goals and assist 10

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Why are you talking about Falcao he wasn't at United two years ago, I don't think you realise what this discussion is about. Blinkers on seeing "Suarez" "not" "United" "team" and just going with that

And shunting Rooney into midfield because from midfield he can still score 17 goals and assist 10

Look Ill leave you to it. You keep believing that suarez wouldnt have got his game for Utd fair enough.

brevity

Its Wayne Rooney's all the way down.

Hulk Hands

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Look Ill leave you to it. You keep believing that suarez wouldnt have got his game for Utd fair enough.

You're really struggling with this. He never said Suarez wouldn't have got into United's team last season. Of course he would, he was the best player in the league by a distance. It was the season previous (2012-2013), where he was coming off a very mediocre season (2011-2012), that he wouldnt have straight away commanded a place alongside a Rooney still playing well and the reigning POTY, Van Persie

Iused2likebusts

Hulk Hands wrote: »

You're really struggling with this. He never said Suarez wouldn't have got into United's team last season. Of course he would, he was the best player in the league by a distance. It was the season previous (2012-2013), where he was coming off a very mediocre season (2011-2012), that he wouldnt have straight away commanded a place alongside a Rooney still playing well and the reigning POTY, Van Persie

I'm not struggling at all with it actually. When a team signs a player that's better than what they have he will find his way into the line up. Sure it's the same as saying if liverpool signed rvp and rooney at the start of last year They wouldn't play as suarez and sturridge were in great form so you couldn't drop them.

Rayne Wooney

God this is getting painful

Rooney scored 27 goals, RVP scored 30. But apparently Suarez was the better player coming into the 12/13 season

Ridiculous how far this has been drawn out

MD1990

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I'm glad we've cleared up you don't understand how to average.

As I've said the season United won the title up until Christmas Suarez wouldn't have replaced RVP or Rooney. Don't let last season cloud any of the previous sentence.

He would have replaced Rooney easily he was very poor that season.

5starpool

Suarez scored 78 goals in 120 games in his 3 full seasons at Liverpool, Rooney scored 69 goals in 120 games in the same 3 seasons, van Persie scored 85 in 124 games in those 3 seasons.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks it's black and white either way that any of those 3 players is markedly inferior to the others over that time period.

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

God this is getting painful

Rooney scored 27 goals, RVP scored 30. But apparently Suarez was the better player coming into the 12/13 season

Ridiculous how far this has been drawn out

You are the one that's made it ridiculous. Anyway going by your logic rooney was injured for the 4th game of that season so suarez wouldve got his chance then and as he is the superior player and they probably wouldve been quite impressed with him in training . He would have kept his place in the team. Rooney on his return from injury would've been accommodated somewhere else in the team.