The Big Question: United vs Liverpool - Read Mod Note in OP

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If you keep saying a player has declined and is past it eventually the inevitability of time will prove you "right". No lose strategy really, *claps*.

You can be sure the same posters have been saying it for years.

Same Liverpool fans say it too every year. One year they'll get it right as you say

Donnielighto

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If you keep saying a player has declined and is past it eventually the inevitability of time will prove you "right". No lose strategy really, *claps*.

He has declined physically at least. I do think his cerebral game has improved though and he has more tactical awareness than I would have given him credit for in the passed though that may be down to BR.

Will he be able to play 90 mins in europe midweek and 60/70 the weekends either side (genuine question)?

Donnielighto

We're actually much better behaved than I thought we'd be so far

glued

After Liverpool's season last year you never know what can happen. Both teams are a bit of an unknown quantity atm. Liverpool have sold Suarez but bought lots of players and United have a new manager. Hard to guess which way either team will go

Will I Amnt

rarnes1 wrote: »

You can be sure the same posters have been saying it for years.

Same Liverpool fans say it too every year. One year they'll get it right as you say

That one post sums you up in a nutshell.

Kerrigooney

Will I Amnt wrote: »

That one post sums you up in a nutshell.

What does that even mean?

Will I Amnt

Will I Amnt wrote: »

That one post sums you up in a nutshell.

Cheers for the personal dig.

I'm not getting dragged into that carry on

Rayne Wooney

Doing a combined 11


....................De Gea............
......Smalling..Evans..Squirtle........
...............Ander..Henderson.........
...Valencia......Mata...........Shaw
..............Rooney...RVP............

Kirby

I like Valencia but you can't have him ahead of Sterling considering what they both did last season. That's just crazy.

A combined 11 also highlights the fact that neither team has very good defenders. :P

WealthyB

Donnielighto wrote: »

At least he recovered from that slip :P:P

His game has suited the new role. Tbh I think that rodgers getting him to realise what he's capable of doing and not capable of doing was a big step. He was always a bit too much of team on his shoulders attitudde at times through the years will be interesting if he can keep the level of performance up, I imagine he will be managed a bit this season too due to European games.

Ye'll proobably win the CL and come 5ht with utd in 4th :mad::mad:

In finding a new role for him in the team, BR's managed Gerrard the same way Fergie did with Giggs previously..

Dunno what way it's gonna go. Arsenal had tough year with injuries last year, they're even stronger now, same Chelsea, and you know City will spend.. I think that last CL spot could be between both teams.

2nd season syndrome is a possibility for us. Don't buy the "doing a Spurs" line but yeah the Suarez loss is massive; but I also remember plenty a game and he's dead on his feet, and on the bench we have Alberto, Aspas and Victor f*cking Moses.. Last year we got 84 points with a tiny squad, and we did ok when Suarez was banned.

Utd are in transition for the 2nd year. They've upgraded the manager and on that alone I think they'll be +10points on the depressingly pedestrian footie Moyes served up (that'd be 74 points). If they get adequate replacements for Vidic and Evra they could get top 4..

Donnielighto

Will I Amnt wrote: »

That one post sums you up in a nutshell.

Play nice cambo, Rarnes is one of the good guys.

In fairness Gerrard had a good season overall last season (shouldnt have made team of the year though)

Donnielighto

WealthyB wrote: »

In finding a new role for him in the team, BR's managed Gerrard the same way Fergie did with Giggs previously..

Dunno what way it's gonna go. Arsenal had tough year with injuries last year, they're even stronger now, same Chelsea, and you know City will spend.. I think that last CL spot could be between both teams.

2nd season syndrome is a possibility for us. Don't buy the "doing a Spurs" line but yeah the Suarez loss is massive; but I also remember plenty a game and he's dead on his feet, and on the bench we have Alberto, Aspas and Victor f*cking Moses.. Last year we got 84 points with a tiny squad, and we did ok when Suarez was banned.

Utd are in transition for the 2nd year. They've upgraded the manager and on that alone I think they'll be +10points on the depressingly pedestrian footie Moyes served up (that'd be 74 points). If they get adequate replacements for Vidic and Evra they could get top 4..

We've replaced Evra, it's cb and cm that support is needed. Also a backup lb/lwb. Suarez wont be the loss people are making out though, he was a bit of a flat track bully I think judging from the situation re win/lose/draw was when he scored assisted. I think Pool got more than they should have for him.

Donnielighto

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Doing a combined 11


....................De Gea............
......Smalling..Evans..Squirtle........
...............Ander..Henderson.........
...Valencia......Mata...........Shaw
..............Rooney...RVP............

Drop val and skrtel, put in sturridge and raf and go 433 with sturridge and rooney flanking rvp.

Edit: as liamo said jones in CB for smalling

WealthyB

Donnielighto wrote: »

We've replaced Evra, it's cb and cm that support is needed. Also a backup lb/lwb. Suarez wont be the loss people are making out though, he was a bit of a flat track bully I think judging from the situation re win/lose/draw was when he scored assisted. I think Pool got more than they should have for him.

Damned praise for who is warts and all, still one of the best strikers in the world.

Donnielighto

WealthyB wrote: »

Damned praise for who is warts and all, still one of the best strikers in the world.

He's good but I think ye did well. I think your season depends on whether or not last year was annus mirablis for sturridge.

Liam O

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Doing a combined 11


....................De Gea............
......Smalling..Evans..Squirtle........
...............Ander..Henderson.........
...Valencia......Mata...........Shaw
..............Rooney...RVP............

Smalling and Valencia would get nowhere near a combined 11. Jones is better than Smalling and with the players I'd definitely play 4-3-3 with Rafael in for Smalling and Sterling or Nani in for Valencia. Sturridge unlucky to miss out with 2 better strikers there.

Donnielighto

Liam O wrote: »

Smalling and Valencia would get nowhere near a combined 11. Jones is better than Smalling and with the players I'd definitely play 4-3-3 with Rafael in for Smalling and Sterling or Nani in for Valencia. Sturridge unlucky to miss out with 2 better strikers there.

Dont think nani can be put in based on last season. I still think he has it in his locker but sterling has to be ahead of him on form if you are ruling sturridge out of a wide berth

Liam O

Donnielighto wrote: »

Dont think nani can be put in based on last season. I still think he has it in his locker but sterling has to be ahead of him on form if you are ruling sturridge out of a wide berth

Sturridge gets too greedy out wide. Sterling is in form but I think he's being slightly overrated even if I'd have him streets ahead of any player his age in England. Nani did well in the WC and was Portugals best attacker against the US, shame they have such useless strikers because if he can put in crosses like he did in that game with RVP and Rooney about he could have a big season. All depends on if he stays too.

Donnielighto

fingers crossed he does stay around, really think he can be one of the most effective wide men in the PL

Skylinehead

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Gerrard and ramsey would be my midfield 2. Gerrard and herrera at Utd.

Gerrard doesn't offer anywhere near enough defensive cover for me. I'd fancy Arteta to be better at that, if not at creativity. Flamini certainly.

hefferboi

Combined 11 from me

De gea
Rafael
Lovren
Sakho
Shaw

Henderson
Lallana
Mata

Sturridge
Rvp
Sterling

osnola ibax

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Maybe you could call us all delusional here instead of running off to your team thread...

Eh, I think I did

Soft Falling Rain

hefferboi wrote: »

Combined 11 from me

De gea
Rafael
Lovren
Sakho
Shaw

Henderson
Lallana
Mata

Sturridge
Rvp
Sterling

That's pretty much spot on the ball.

ThunbergsAreGo

Don't think who will likely finish 3rd-5th is a big question

Looking forward to the Arsenal v Chelsea and QPR v West Ham threads

Iused2likebusts

Donnielighto wrote: »

The PFA thing is pretty flawed though due to the time the votes are done and if you had ramsey injured at the start of the season and not the 2nd half I dont think gerrard would have made it. Still a good season for him.

Ye I'd agree with what you have said not so sure myself he deserved to be in team of the season but definetly in the discussion . It's clear he had a good season average first half of the season and excellent 2nd half of the season yet some are making out he had a poor season or declined hugely which I don't agree with.

Will I Amnt

Kerrigooney wrote: »

What does that even mean?

I don't have to look at the username to know who posted it.

Will I Amnt

rarnes1 wrote: »

Cheers for the personal dig.

I'm not getting dragged into that carry on

Personal dig? Lol. All you've done in this thread is pass comment on what others are saying in a sneery way. But sure carry on... as you were...

Will I Amnt

osnola ibax wrote: »

Eh, I think I did

No, you claimed you were joking here.

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Doing a combined 11


....................De Gea............
......Smalling..Evans..Squirtle........
...............Ander..Henderson.........
...Valencia......Mata...........Shaw
..............Rooney...RVP............

Its funny that liverpool fans were deluded for posting these combined teams when liverpool trailed utd in the league. Not sure I ever saw one that contained 9 pool and 2 utd though. The only thing I can take from your combined team is that suarez must have been unbelievable to ensure such a poor team did so well. However then I remember some of your comments in the best players to have played in the prem thread and I get confused all over again.

RayCon

Great - another Utd V Liverpool thread ...

SlickRic

no Coutinho or Sturridge in a combined 11 is ridiculous.

just like having no DDG or RVP would be.

Having Ander in yet is silly.

DDG

Shaw
Skrtel
Smalling
Flanagan

Henderson
Coutinho
Lallana

Mata
Sturridge
RVP

that's mainly on last season's form, but also slightly on talent too.

Rafael would be in if it was a year or 2 ago.

I would also understand someone getting Rooney in somehow.

however, anyone who has Valencia in is just taking the píss.

Will I Amnt

SlickRic wrote: »

no Coutinho or Sturridge in a combined 11 is ridiculous.

just like having no DDG or RVP would be.

Having Ander in yet is silly.

DDG

Shaw
Skrtel
Smalling
Flanagan

Henderson
Coutinho
Lallana

Mata
Sturridge
RVP

that's mainly on last season's form, but also slightly on talent too.

Rafael would be in if it was a year or 2 ago.

I would also understand someone getting Rooney in somehow.

however, anyone who has Valencia in is just taking the píss.

Any sillier than having Lallana in it?

LuckyLloyd

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Any sillier than having Lallana in it?

Seemed to have a pretty solid premiership season last year, seems more relevant.

SlickRic

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Any sillier than having Lallana in it?

have you seen Ander play regularly?

If people with him in their teams have, and think he's worth being in there before kicking a ball in the EPL, then fair enough.

Will I Amnt

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Seemed to have a pretty solid premiership season last year, seems more relevant.

Yes he did and if you were to search through my posts you would find nothing but praise for him but if someone else thinks Herrera had a pretty solid season why are they silly for putting him in?

Will I Amnt

SlickRic wrote: »

have you seen Ander play regularly?

If people with him in their teams have, and think he's worth being in there before kicking a ball in the EPL, then fair enough.

Bits and pieces, I'm not the one putting him in an 11 but it's not silly for someone else to if they have seen a lot of him but you seem to have realised this anyway.

Lord TSC

Just for the record here....

This topic is being monitored very closely, and there's several posts who seem to be approaching the line whereby there's going to be warnings issued and topic closed.

When the topic was opened, I let it go because, ultimately, Pool and United have the biggest sets of fans on the forum and the debate was obviously going to generate a lot of discussion. It started off civil, so grand. Once it stays that way, I think there's merits for such a topic.

But if it descends into bickering, personal shots or moves away from an actual debate on teams and transfers, and onto fans taking potshots at each other or "banter", we'll close the topic quickly.

Prove to us that you can have a civil debate here. Discuss posts and not posters. Please.

Soups123

DeGea

Rafael Jones Skertel Shaw

Hendo

Coutinho Mata

Sturridge RVP Sterling

Hidalgo

This thread was going surprisingly grand till the combined teams.
Utd have bought for 2 major problem areas LB and MF which should improve their points tally. Far more importantly LVG replacing Moyes will improve Utd.

For Liverpool Suarez is obviously a massive loss. Yet some non-Liverpool fans often told me he wasn't as important when he was there and that his record was skewed as he got gluts v poorer teams.
Will Sterling and Couthinho continue their upward curve from the 2nd half of last season?
Will Sturridge have another extremely productive season. Linked to that can he stay relatively injury free? If not can some of the newbies step up to the plate?

By and large its way too early to predict. Still too much of the window remaining. If either side can attract one genuine quality player that could tip it in their favour. Tbh I think Utd have a better chance of attracting that type of player

whatawaster

Have no idea who will finish higher. Liverpool have taken what appears to be a risky transfer strategy. If we come 4th this year, we could be title contenders for years to come, given the possible age of our squad.

Could easily start the season with Sterling (19), Markovic (20), Origi (19), Moreno (22), Flanagan (21), Can (20), Coutinho (22), Ibe (18), Manquillo (20)

with Henderson (24), Sturridge (24), Sakho (24), Lallana (26), Mignolet (26), Allen (24), Lovren (25) still young but practically ancient when compared to the above.

It's a VERY young squad. A lot of potential, but who knows if they will be able to do it this season.

hefferboi

SlickRic wrote: »

no Coutinho or Sturridge in a combined 11 is ridiculous.

just like having no DDG or RVP would be.

Having Ander in yet is silly.

DDG

Shaw
Skrtel
Smalling
Flanagan

Henderson
Coutinho
Lallana

Mata
Sturridge
RVP

that's mainly on last season's form, but also slightly on talent too.

Rafael would be in if it was a year or 2 ago.

I would also understand someone getting Rooney in somehow.

however, anyone who has Valencia in is just taking the píss.

Sterling had a better season than coutinho last year, imo. He was unplayable in our run up to the end of the year and has to be in there ahead of him. Coutinho would be unlucky to miss out but I'd put mata in ahead of him on talent alone. Mata is arguably world class where as coutinho is only potentially world class.

Liam O

SlickRic wrote: »

no Coutinho or Sturridge in a combined 11 is ridiculous.

just like having no DDG or RVP would be.

Having Ander in yet is silly.

DDG

Shaw
Skrtel
Smalling
Flanagan

Henderson
Coutinho
Lallana

Mata
Sturridge
RVP

that's mainly on last season's form, but also slightly on talent too.

Rafael would be in if it was a year or 2 ago.

I would also understand someone getting Rooney in somehow.

however, anyone who has Valencia in is just taking the píss.

Flanagan over Rafael is pushing it a bit there Ric. Coutinho I thought was Liverpool's worst starter last season, if you have him in then he's in direct competition with Mata and Kagawa who are both better. Rooney was the subject of the media campaign through the Summer so I wouldn't expect anyone to think the guy approaching United's all time scoring record (and probably assists too but haven't checked) would be any use anymore but he is still very good. Smalling is the worst of United's 3 central defenders, don't know how he made it in...

Donnielighto

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Its funny that liverpool fans were deluded for posting these combined teams when liverpool trailed utd in the league. Not sure I ever saw one that contained 9 pool and 2 utd though. The only thing I can take from your combined team is that suarez must have been unbelievable to ensure such a poor team did so well. However then I remember some of your comments in the best players to have played in the prem thread and I get confused all over again.

Ander and Shaw have nothing to do with united position last season. Get your point though and smalling/val defintely shouldnt be there. Front line has a lot of competition but sturridge has to feature somewhere for me.

ThunbergsAreGo

Liam O wrote: »

Flanagan over Rafael is pushing it a bit there Ric. Coutinho I thought was Liverpool's worst starter last season, if you have him in then he's in direct competition with Mata and Kagawa who are both better. Rooney was the subject of the media campaign through the Summer so I wouldn't expect anyone to think the guy approaching United's all time scoring record (and probably assists too but haven't checked) would be any use anymore but he is still very good. Smalling is the worst of United's 3 central defenders, don't know how he made it in...

I think Kagawa is pushing it, one of those players who has had more bad than good performances since joining but always gets excuses made for him. Very interested to see how he gets on with LVG in charge.

Smalling i really rated a few years ago (def ahead of Jones) but he really does seem to have gone off the boil. Is he too "nice"?

Donnielighto

SlickRic wrote: »

no Coutinho or Sturridge in a combined 11 is ridiculous.

just like having no DDG or RVP would be.

Having Ander in yet is silly.

DDG

Shaw
Skrtel
Smalling
Flanagan

Henderson
Coutinho
Lallana

Mata
Sturridge
RVP

that's mainly on last season's form, but also slightly on talent too.

Rafael would be in if it was a year or 2 ago.

I would also understand someone getting Rooney in somehow.

however, anyone who has Valencia in is just taking the píss.

Coutinho, lallana and Mata in the same team is putting a lot of work there for hendo. Maybe sterling out wide and take 2 of the 3 10s into the squad.

Oh and jones and evans are both ahead of smalling

Lord TSC

In a bid to answer....

As a United fan, I've always admired how Liverpool always seems to build a team round a striker who looks like a beast. While I appreciate how good Suarez was for them and he'll be missed, I'd personally think that Sturridge should step into those shoes and return a pretty decent goal rate. They'll build around him, and make him the focus of every attack. I do think Liverpool are overpaying for just-above-average players, mind, but then I think that's part of being a top 4 team right now, and don't think as a United fan I can criticize that too much. In the transfer market, it's going to be about creating a solid and long-term base for both clubs, about stabilization.

I would imagine Chelsea and City would be the front runners for 1st and 2nd, and I think Arsenal, Pool and United (and possibly Spurs) will be fighting for 3rd and 4th. I think for Pool and United though, it will come down to which manager makes his players buy into the belief they can go far.

Rodgers last year, to me, showed that you don't need the greatest team to nearly win the league (and I think that was shown at the WC as well with the amount of smaller teams who did well); it's about believing in yourself and creating a sense of determination. Moyes didn't do that last year. He convinced everyone, players and fans, that we were useless and even Fergie would have struggled. I think LVG will counter that this year. He'll convince the team that Man United are winners and should be winning.

So, basically, it seems to me that the biggest factor will be who can get more out of their teams; LVG or Rodgers. Who is the better man motivator?

Hidalgo

Liam O wrote: »

Flanagan over Rafael is pushing it a bit there Ric. Coutinho I thought was Liverpool's worst starter last season, if you have him in then he's in direct competition with Mata and Kagawa who are both better. Rooney was the subject of the media campaign through the Summer so I wouldn't expect anyone to think the guy approaching United's all time scoring record (and probably assists too but haven't checked) would be any use anymore but he is still very good. Smalling is the worst of United's 3 central defenders, don't know how he made it in...

Couthinho as Liverpools worst starter is too sweeping a starement. For me he was Liverpools most inconsistent starter. He had some outstanding games mixed with some where he had no impact whatsoever.

Rayne Wooney

I admit it was slightly tongue in cheek adding Ander, if I'm looking for the best possible team

.............DDG...........
Flan...Evans...Skrtel....Shaw
.............Carrick.........
.....Gerrard..Henderson......
...............Mata..............
.........Rooney....RVP.........

Sturridge misses out because I'm not fickle basing it on one season and Rooney is the better striker. Didn't know who to pick for RB

Kerrigooney

Combined teams are just so ridiculous. I really don't know why anyone bothers.

What is the point of combination teams in a team a vs team b debate?

I think Utd will finish higher. UCL will take it out of Pool. And Utd will do better with the rest the UCL break.

Oh, and I'm loving everyone who says Arsenal will fall out the top 4. Keep it up lads!