The Big Question: United vs Liverpool - Read Mod Note in OP

Donnielighto

Deleted User wrote: »

What is the point of combination teams in a team a vs team b debate?

I think Utd will finish higher. UCL will take it out of Pool. And Utd will do better with the rest the UCL break.

Oh, and I'm loving everyone who says Arsenal will fall out the top 4. Keep it up lads!

Arsenal will fall out of the top 4.



1st-3rd imo

Zico

Lord TSC wrote: »

So, basically, it seems to me that the biggest factor will be who can get more out of their teams; LVG or Rodgers. Who is the better man motivator?

I applaud your diplomacy but it's patronising to suggest LVG and Rogers have the same quality of players to work with.

whatawaster

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I admit it was slightly tongue in cheek adding Ander, if I'm looking for the best possible team

.............DDG...........
Flan...Evans...Skrtel....Shaw
.............Carrick.........
.....Gerrard..Henderson......
...............Mata..............
.........Rooney....RVP.........

Sturridge misses out because I'm not fickle basing it on one season and Rooney is the better striker. Didn't know who to pick for RB

I'd find it very difficult not to have any of Sterling, Sturridge or Coutinho in that side.

Sterling would walk into the team (if, for some reason, it was a real-life selection) because of his pace. One of the midfield 3 would drop out.

Sturridge/RVP/Rooney are coin-tosses imo. The latter two have the weight of their careers and experience behind them. Last season and a half Sturridge has been unbelievable. Again, his pace might be a deciding factor.

Will I Amnt

Zico wrote: »

I applaud your diplomacy but it's patronising to suggest LVG and Rogers have the same quality of players to work with.

Rodgers has had 2 seasons to put his stamp on the team and has his players well drilled in what he expects of them, it will be interesting to see how they fair without Suarez, the opposition are not going to be as preoccupied with 1 player now. United have to hit the ground running under LvG's brand of football.

The team with the better players doesn't always come out on top, a well drilled team of players who know what is expected of them can be more effective than a team with a sprinkling of big names shoehorned into positions they are not as comfortable with. It will be interesting to see how it plays out no doubt.

Marty McFly

whatawaster wrote: »

I'd find it very difficult not to have any of Sterling, Sturridge or Coutinho in that side.

Sterling would walk into the team (if, for some reason, it was a real-life selection) because of his pace. One of the midfield 3 would drop out.

Sturridge/RVP/Rooney are coin-tosses imo. The latter two have the weight of their careers and experience behind them. Last season and a half Sturridge has been unbelievable. Again, his pace might be a deciding factor.

There may be a case for Sturridge and Sterling.
But Countinho over Mata think you will only find Liverpool fans thinking that's a good idea.

Zico

Athletico Madrid, Southampton and Liverpool were the big overachievers last year, there's been a scrum to buy Athletico and Southampton players but only one player drew any interest at Liverpool.

Brendan Rogers needs to pull a rabbit from a hat to prevent that team going back to where it came from.

Iused2likebusts

Zico wrote: »

Athletico Madrid, Southampton and Liverpool were the big overachievers last year, there's been a scrum to buy Athletico and Southampton players but only one player drew any interest at Liverpool.

Brendan Rogers needs to pull a rabbit from a hat to prevent that team going back to where it came from.

I'm confused by your logic here. Are you saying Liverpool were a one man team and without suarez they will be back finishing 7th or 8th .

Rayne Wooney

whatawaster wrote: »

I'd find it very difficult not to have any of Sterling, Sturridge or Coutinho in that side.

Sterling would walk into the team (if, for some reason, it was a real-life selection) because of his pace. One of the midfield 3 would drop out.

Sturridge/RVP/Rooney are coin-tosses imo. The latter two have the weight of their careers and experience behind them. Last season and a half Sturridge has been unbelievable. Again, his pace might be a deciding factor.

If you go 442 I'd stick Sterling in for Carrick but Coutinho wouldn't make it near the team and Sturridge just isn't going to make it in ahead of RVP and Rooney

Rayne Wooney

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

If you go 442 I'd stick Sterling in for Carrick but Coutinho wouldn't make it near the team and Sturridge just isn't going to make it in ahead of RVP and Rooney

Sterling for Carrick?

Completely different roles in the team

Rayne Wooney

rarnes1 wrote: »

Sterling for Carrick?

Completely different roles in the team

Did you miss the part where I said 442, I'm hardly going to take Carrick out and play Gerrard on the wing with Sterling and Henderson in CM.

Obviously Sterling would play a wide role but coming inside like Mata on the other side

whatawaster

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

If you go 442 I'd stick Sterling in for Carrick but Coutinho wouldn't make it near the team and Sturridge just isn't going to make it in ahead of RVP and Rooney

Coutinho is a quality player and a big game performer. He might not be in the 11 but he is certainly near it. There isn't anyone I'm there as good as him at picking out a through pass

Rayne Wooney

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Did you miss the part where I said 442, I'm hardly going to take Carrick out and play Gerrard on the wing with Sterling and Henderson in CM.

Obviously Sterling would play a wide role but coming inside like Mata on the other side

4-4-2 wouldn't work to either players strengths

Zico

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

I'm confused by your logic here. Are you saying Liverpool were a one man team and without suarez they will be back finishing 7th or 8th .

Yes they were a one man team.

But that man wasn't Luis Suarez.

LFC still finished outside CL places when Suarez was in the team. Brendan Rogers is probably the real reason why they look better, and that seems to be the opinion of those looking to buy players.

Rayne Wooney

whatawaster wrote: »

Coutinho is a quality player and a big game performer. He might not be in the 11 but he is certainly near it. There isn't anyone I'm there as good as him at picking out a through pass

There isn't anyone as good as him picking out a through pass on the bench?

Considering Kagawa would be on the bench you are wrong there

whatawaster

Zico wrote: »

Yes they were a one man team.

But that man wasn't Luis Suarez.

LFC still finished outside CL places when Suarez was in the team. Brendan Rogers is probably the real reason why they look better, and that seems to be the opinion of those looking to buy players.

Liverpool have more money than Atletico and can afford to keep our stars. Hence us keeping Suarez last summer and him only leaving when his release clause was met.

whatawaster

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

There isn't anyone as good as him picking out a through pass on the bench?

Considering Kagawa would be on the bench you are wrong there

I disagree and would have Coutinho ahead of Kagawa any day. Kagawa has been a disappointment for two years under two managers. What are we judging him on? Form from 3 years ago. Coutinho on the other hand has excelled in the PL at a very young age.

Zico

Why does no one rate Coutinho?

Brazil were stuck for creative players at the World Cup, and they brought Paulinho.

Iused2likebusts

Zico wrote: »

Yes they were a one man team.

But that man wasn't Luis Suarez.

LFC still finished outside CL places when Suarez was in the team. Brendan Rogers is probably the real reason why they look better, and that seems to be the opinion of those looking to buy players.

Your not making much sense. On the one hand your saying that the players aren't any good because other teams aren't buying them and then discounting the fact that one of the big 2 in world football bought suarez. The players by and large aren't going to want to move anyway they are vastly overpaid like all Pl players and are in the cl this year and it's highly unlikely Liverpool would sell to any other big Pl club as there is no financial need. I know you already know this so don't know why I bother.

Knex*

The real combined 11 question is, who gets to be the manager?

Rayne Wooney

whatawaster wrote: »

I disagree and would have Coutinho ahead of Kagawa any day. Kagawa has been a disappointment for two years under two managers. What are we judging him on? Form from 3 years ago. Coutinho on the other hand has excelled in the PL at a very young age.

Kagawa was a star man winning the title twice for Dortmund. He was called one of the best number 10s in the world. Form is temporary class is permanent, just because Fergie used him like he used Park and Moyes hadn't got a clue either doesn't take away from his class.

Coutinho has had one good season, and is victim to Liverpool fans vastly overrating him because of this.

Hidalgo

Zico wrote: »

Why does no one rate Coutinho?

Brazil were stuck for creative players at the World Cup, and they brought Paulinho.

So part of your reasoning is Couthinho didnt make the Brazil squad. But you have Kagaw ahead of Couthinho despite the fact Kagawa has more often than not failed to nail down a starting 11 berth for Utd. Ok

The Brazil squad was more or less picked after the confed cup last summer.
Just because he wasn't brought doesn't mean he isn't quality. I wouldn't take Hulk or Fred over him (going off track here).

If its between Couthinho and Kagawa I'd take Couthinho as Kagawa hasn't played enouugh.
If its between Mata and Couthinho then its Mata for me.

Zico

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

...I know you already know this so don't know why I bother.

Deep down you know what happened last season was an anomaly.

I'm not taking pleasure in pointing this out, because I enjoy the MUFC-LFC rivalry alot.

However..

..it's unlikely we'll cross swords on this issue beyond September.:)

Hidalgo

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Kagawa was a star man winning the title twice for Dortmund. He was called one of the best number 10s in the world. Form is temporary class is permanent, just because Fergie used him like he used Park and Moyes hadn't got a clue either doesn't take away from his class.

Coutinho has had one good season, and is victim to Liverpool fans vastly overrating him because of this.

He's on a fair bad run of form. Would you use the same quote re Torres.
Maybe Van Gaal will utilise him properly
Only time will tell? Only saw bits of him from his Dortmund days and he certainly looked class back then

Rayne Wooney

Hidalgo wrote: »

He's on a fair bad run of form. Would you use the same quote re Torres.
Maybe Van Gaal will utilise him properly
Only time will tell? Only saw bits of him from his Dortmund days and he certainly looked class back then

No because Torres wasn't consistently played out of position inconsistently across the seasons like Kagawa has for United, and Kagawa doesn't rely on pace and hasn't lost a fair bit of it like Torres has

The comparison just doesn't work, if Kagawa was given an extended run behind the strikers there's no reason why he wouldn't return to Dortmund form

Countinho is promising and was good last season but if it's a choice between both on form it doesn't make sense picking Coutinho unless you are a Liverpool fan

Washington Irving

Knex. wrote: »

The real combined 11 question is, who gets to be the manager?

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-18580-Homer-Simpson-Beer-Explosion-f-03jw.gif

Defo Paul Ince.

Liverpool have serious pace up front.

Utds front two haven't much of that

ThunbergsAreGo

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

No because Torres wasn't consistently played out of position inconsistently across the seasons like Kagawa has for United, and Kagawa doesn't rely on pace and hasn't lost a fair bit of it like Torres has

The comparison just doesn't work, if Kagawa was given an extended run behind the strikers there's no reason why he wouldn't return to Dortmund form

Countinho is promising and was good last season but if it's a choice between both on form it doesn't make sense picking Coutinho unless you are a Liverpool fan

Some players just don't work in some leagues. Veron was a superior player and 'failed' here. If Kag is that good why buy Mata?

naughtb4

naughtb4 wrote: »

Some players just don't work in some leagues. Veron was a superior player and 'failed' here. If Kag is that good why buy Mata?

I'd be surprised if Kagawa lasts the summer.

There's no space for all these number 10s

Zico

rarnes1 wrote: »

Liverpool have serious pace up front.

Utds front two haven't much of that

Arsenal will have World Cup winners on the bench.

Chelsea have strengthened, City kept Toure.

Who cares what LFC have.

Zico

Zico wrote: »

Who cares what LFC have.

Isn't this the point of the thread?

Just comparing their pace in attack

Will I Amnt

United won a league a little over a year ago with the same forwards. I don't think any of them have lost a significant amount of pace since then.

Zico

rarnes1 wrote: »

Just comparing their pace in attack

I don't think anyone wins in a derby between Welbeck, Strurridge, Sterling and Young.

Who has the reddest jersey?

Donnielighto

rarnes1 wrote: »

Sterling for Carrick?

Completely different roles in the team

Gerrard and hendo central sterling one wing and mata moves to the other?

Knex*

Zico wrote: »

I don't think anyone wins in a derby between Welbeck, Strurridge, Sterling and Young.

Depends, who are the jockeys?

ThunbergsAreGo

Zico wrote: »

Arsenal will have World Cup winners on the bench.

Chelsea have strengthened, City kept Toure.

Who cares what LFC have.

Me

Rayne Wooney

naughtb4 wrote: »

Some players just don't work in some leagues. Veron was a superior player and 'failed' here. If Kag is that good why buy Mata?

They have to be given a chance before it's determined if a player doesn't work or not, in his time at United Kagawa has never been given a run of games in the position he played at Dortmund and that's not really his fault. Van Gaal knows how to use Kagawa

whatawaster

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Van Gaal knows how to use Kagawa

How can you know this?

Rayne Wooney

whatawaster wrote: »

How can you know this?

Because he has used tonnes of number 10 players effectively there's no evidence to the contrary that he wouldn't be able to do the same with Kagawa

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Because he has used tonnes of number 10 players effectively there's no evidence to the contrary that he wouldn't be able to do the same with Kagawa

He may think rooney mata Janujaz Herrera wellbeck are better though .

Donnielighto

Donnielighto wrote: »

Gerrard and hendo central sterling one wing and mata moves to the other?

Gerrard in a 2 man midfield doesn't work these days. Henderson also better in a 3 man midfield
.
Mata better coming from a central position behind the striker imo.

Sterling can play the wing but he could well end up as a number 10.

Iused2likebusts

Zico wrote: »

Who has the reddest jersey?

Similar shades of red just one of the clubs jerseys are off to get 5 items put on them for some Tuesday and Wednesday night games.

citytillidie

Well United will obviously finish ahead of Liverpool they don't have any mid week distractions this coming season

Rayne Wooney

I suppose the first time in 20 years we haven't made it to the group stage couldn't have come at a better time while we sort out the mess of last season

No danger of slipping into Europa and completely fcuking up league form also..

Hidalgo

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

No because Torres wasn't consistently played out of position inconsistently across the seasons like Kagawa has for United, and Kagawa doesn't rely on pace and hasn't lost a fair bit of it like Torres has

The comparison just doesn't work, if Kagawa was given an extended run behind the strikers there's no reason why he wouldn't return to Dortmund form

Countinho is promising and was good last season but if it's a choice between both on form it doesn't make sense picking Coutinho unless you are a Liverpool fan

If the decision is made on form how can anyone pick Kagawa. He has no form to speak of as he hasn't played?

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

gosplan

Should we relabel this thread 'the race for fourth' now or wait till later?

Godge

gosplan wrote: »

Should we relabel this thread 'the race for fourth' now or wait till later?

I think that is why this debate and the rivalry between the two are so heated this year.

In my opinion, Chelsea, City and Arsenal are likely to be "top four".

That leaves one spot. Four teams. Utd, Liverpool, Everton and Spurs, probably in that order.

Two seasons without Champions League would be a disaster for Utd.
Falling back out again after only one season would be a disaster for Liverpool.

Neither team has signed a Costa or a Sanchez. Liverpool have lost Suarez, Utd. Vidic, Ferdinand, Giggs and Evra. None of the other three top 4 teams have lost players like that. Where they have, they have replaced with better - Fabregas for Lampard and Debuchy for Sagna.

There is real fear out there among their fans and it is worse for them that they are against hated rivals for that last spot. A neutral would love to see Everton beat both of them to fourth.

citytillidie

gosplan wrote: »

Should we relabel this thread 'the race for fourth' now or wait till later?

Wait until Arsenal join in that race in March

jester77

The top 3 is more or less a given, hard to say which of City, Chelsea or Arsenal will win it though, going to be close this year. 4th will be interesting, Spurs, Everton, Liverpool & Utd will be pushing for it. I think the fact Utd don't have European games like Liverpool didn't last season will give them the edge, plus losing Suarez is massive blow to them. Not sure if Utd will finish ahead of Everton though.

whatawaster

jester77 wrote: »

The top 3 is more or less a given, hard to say which of City, Chelsea or Arsenal will win it though, going to be close this year. 4th will be interesting, Spurs, Everton, Liverpool & Utd will be pushing for it. I think the fact Utd don't have European games like Liverpool didn't last season will give them the edge, plus losing Suarez is massive blow to them. Not sure if Utd will finish ahead of Everton though.

Everton without Lukaku ahead of United and Pool?