The Big Question: United vs Liverpool - Read Mod Note in OP

gosplan

Knex. wrote: »

Its been a while since I've seen as bizarre a football related analogy, as you comparing niallo to holocaust deniers.

Christ, gosplan!

That's not my comparison.

He's saying that every year people say 'Arsenal will challenge'.

Probably some idiot somewhere does but it's not reflective of the general thinking, is it?

greendom

The Pontiac wrote: »

And you still don't see the change in trend in the last 20 yrs?

Portsmouth, Wigan Athletic, Stoke City and Hull all made the final in the last 5 yrs.

But don't lose this argument - come back with another smartass comment instead of having a mature debate.

And no, no one with half a brain believes it is half as competitive as it once was, when it was the best domestic cup in the world.

That's just the way the cup goes. Look back to the 70s 80s, those halycon days when the FA Cup was supposedly much more important, Ipswich, Sunderland, Fulham, West Ham, QPR, Brighton, all either reached the FA Cup Final or won it.

Some teams do take the cup lightly, Southampton last season comes to mind, but generally managers put players out who they think can win the game.

gosplan

niallo27 wrote: »

There is posts in this thread saying arsenal will challenge.

That's this year, you specifically said 'every year'.

I think that's nonsense tbh.

Fescue

Why is Arsenal even being discussed in this thread.

Rayne Wooney

Spurs spent €120 million last season

Liverpool up to €100 million with the impending Lovren transfer

I think this summer will make or break Rodgers

Sheepy99

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

You could make a much better argument for Liverpool dropping out than Arsenal

Saying Arsenal will drop out is unfounded IMO, people have been saying it almost 20 years


Edit: I can't believe I actually have to say the above when Liverpool have finished 8th and 7th in the past 3 years.

You do a bad job of hiding your bitterness towards Liverpool. Not just here, but across the soccer forum

Rayne Wooney

Sheepy99 wrote: »

You do a bad job of hiding your bitterness towards Liverpool. Not just here, but across the soccer forum

lol :pac:

Explain how stating the facts could be bitter?

Did Liverpool finish 7th and 8th in the last 3 years? Yes
Could you make a better arguement for Liverpool to drop out than Arsenal? Yes

Fescue

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Spurs spent €120 million last season

Liverpool up to €100 million with the impending Lovren transfer

I think this summer will make or break Rodgers

Make or break for Rodgers? Its taken a while but I think you've finally managed to make this thread farcical.

Marty McFly

The Pontiac wrote: »

And you still don't see the change in trend in the last 20 yrs?

Portsmouth, Wigan Athletic, Stoke City and Hull all made the final in the last 5 yrs.

But don't lose this argument - come back with another smartass comment instead of having a mature debate.

And no, no one with half a brain believes it is half as competitive as it once was, when it was the best domestic cup in the world.

:pac: ok and what clubs have won it since you reckon it has declined in 99? Ya know since big clubs don't take it serious

The Pontiac

greendom wrote: »

That's just the way the cup goes. Look back to the 70s 80s, those halycon days when the FA Cup was supposedly much more important, Ipswich, Sunderland, Fulham, West Ham, QPR, Brighton, all either reached the FA Cup Final or won it.

Some teams do take the cup lightly, Southampton last season comes to mind, but generally managers put players out who they think can win the game.

But some of them clubs were decent teams in their day.

The top four clubs now are taking part in the champion's league where there's massive money involved. There's no way the can afford to take the FA cup as serious now.

Sheepy99

Marty McFly wrote: »

Strange that since every team last season played strong teams in it.

As they do the majority of the time. People just seem to try to use that point to bring it down. Definitely still a credible competition, and I think fans opinions on it tend to change depending on which of their rivals won it the previous season

Rayne Wooney

Fescue wrote: »

Make or break for Rodgers? Its taken a while but I think you've finally managed to make this thread farcical.

Definitely, as it stands he will probably spend more than £100 million, Suarez gone so if he misses top 4 and any of his signings don't work out he could be in trouble

The Pontiac

Marty McFly wrote: »

:pac: ok and what clubs have won it since you reckon it has declined in 99? Ya know since big clubs don't take it serious

A lot of big clubs have won it, but look at the opposition.

IMO the demands of champion's league has greatly lessened the importance of the FA Cup.

greendom

The Pontiac wrote: »

But some of them clubs were decent teams in their day.

The top four clubs now are taking part in the champion's league where there's massive money involved. There's no way the can afford to take the FA cup as serious now.

All massive underdogs. No different to Wigan or Portsmouth

Rayne Wooney

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Definitely, as it stands he will probably spend more than £100 million, Suarez gone so if he misses top 4 and any of his signings don't work out he could be in trouble

The make or break is hyperbole though and was rightly pointed out. It's obvious Rodgers is building a young squad of decent footballers. Being pipped into 4th spot by Utd who are hardly Rushden and Diamonds would hardly be a disaster, just a big disappointment

Morzadec

Fescue wrote: »

Make or break for Rodgers? Its taken a while but I think you've finally managed to make this thread farcical.

As a Liverpool fan, I don't think he's wide of the mark. It's a massive window and the success of the transfers are going to influence his tenure hugely.

If they are mostly flops we will almost certainly drop out of the top 4, making strengthening the squad next summer very difficult. This may well lead to a struggle to make top 4 again in the next few years which probably would 'break' Rodgers. I know he seems untouchable at the moment but you're only as good as your last couple of seasons, and the transfer market is the one area where Rodgers perhaps still has a slight question mark over his head. But it is a hugely important area - get it wrong and you're f..ked. All the coaching, media handling, man management and tactical nous in the world won't make up for a squad short on quality.


If they do well enough, some hits and some misses, the league may be too much to ask but top 4 should be possible. But such is the competitiveness at the top end that it would be difficult to bank on it.

If they are mostly hits and the likes of Markovic live up to their billing we could be talking about a team that will challenge for the title for the next 6 or 7 years. I think it was whatawaster that pointed out how young the team is. If the team can get top 4 next year and continue it's progression it can negate the advantage Chelsea and City have in the transfer market by not really having to address too many positions over the coming years.

I don't think the importance of this window can be understated, and I do think ultimately we might look back at this summer as a key point in Rodgers' reign whether it ends up going well or badly. We have lost our best and most influential player, so there's the huge challenge of trying to improve the squad as best as possible and negate the blow of his departure. But on the other hand we have 2 things that we don't usually have most windows - a huge quantity of cash and Champions League football.

It's a big, big window for Rodgers. I believe we stand on the cusp of greatness as well as on the cusp of falling back towards mediocrity and chasing the big boys again, and that the transfers this summer could largely be the deciding factor towards which way we sway.

Marty McFly

The Pontiac wrote: »

A lot of big clubs have won it, but look at the opposition.

IMO the demands of champion's league has greatly lessened the importance of the FA Cup.

Champions league and league do come first yes but you implied top clubs don't take it serious and it's a nothing cup.

The teams top clubs play in it and the winners of the F.A Cup since 99 tells a different story altogether.

Marty McFly

niallo27 wrote: »

20 quid so.

Sorted I'm sure the winner will be quick enough to remind the looser

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Definitely, as it stands he will probably spend more than £100 million, Suarez gone so if he misses top 4 and any of his signings don't work out he could be in trouble

If lvg, wenger ,Mourinho, pellegrenni miss out on the top 4 they will be in trouble and more likely to be sacked than Rodgers if he misses out on the top 4.

Fescue

Morzadec wrote: »

As a Liverpool fan, I don't think he's wide of the mark. It's a massive window and the success of the transfers are going to influence his tenure hugely.

If they are mostly flops we will almost certainly drop out of the top 4, making strengthening the squad next summer very difficult. This may well lead to a struggle to make top 4 again in the next few years which probably would 'break' Rodgers. I know he seems untouchable at the moment but you're only as good as your last couple of seasons, and the transfer market is the one area where Rodgers perhaps still has a slight question mark over his head. But it is a hugely important area - get it wrong and you're f..ked. All the coaching, media handling, man management and tactical nous in the world won't make up for a squad short on quality.


If they do well enough, some hits and some misses, the league may be too much to ask but top 4 should be possible. But such is the competitiveness at the top end that it would be difficult to bank on it.

If they are mostly hits and the likes of Markovic live up to their billing we could be talking about a team that will challenge for the title for the next 6 or 7 years. I think it was whatawaster that pointed out how young the team is. If the team can get top 4 next year and continue it's progression it can negate the advantage Chelsea and City have in the transfer market by not really having to address too many positions over the coming years.

I don't think the importance of this window can be understated, and I do think ultimately we might look back at this summer as a key point in Rodgers' reign whether it ends up going well or badly. We have lost our best and most influential player, so there's the huge challenge of trying to improve the squad as best as possible and negate the blow of his departure. But on the other hand we have 2 things that we don't usually have most windows - a huge quantity of cash and Champions League football.

It's a big, big window for Rodgers. I believe we stand on the cusp of greatness as well as on the cusp of falling back towards mediocrity and chasing the big boys again, and that the transfers this summer could largely be the deciding factor towards which way we sway.

We finished 7th last year. Rodgers has transformed the team in a very short period of time. Even a poor season this year won't see him sacked.

That means its not make or break.

Rayne Wooney

You could build a young squad of decent footballers for a fraction of that. Rodgers still needs to buy a LB and he seems to fancy another attacker as well, the spend could go north of £110 million, if I'm not mistaken that would put Liverpool in a bracket with Madrid, Barca maybe City who've spent that much in one window.

A window like that will never be forgotten.

It will either be a success or failure, if any of the buys don't work out Liverpool may miss out on top 4. Will there be more money to spend if that happens, and would you trust Rodgers with it? On the other hand if all of the signings live up to their potential you could have Liverpool challenging for the league again.

Make or break is it indeed, IMO

Donnielighto

Deleted User wrote: »

Appropriate name for the subject. :pac::pac::D

Donnielighto

2 posters are going to get a decent thread closed

niallo27

Donnielighto wrote: »

2 posters are going to get a decent thread closed

I doubt it. It's all pretty harmless.

The Pontiac

Marty McFly wrote: »

Champions league and league do come first yes but you implied top clubs don't take it serious and it's a nothing cup.

The teams top clubs play in it and the winners of the F.A Cup since 99 tells a different story altogether.

greendom wrote: »

All massive underdogs. No different to Wigan or Portsmouth

Maybe the FA Cup discussion needs its own thread as we're going off topic. Maybe a poll too!

Sheepy99

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

lol :pac:

Explain how stating the facts could be bitter?

Did Liverpool finish 7th and 8th in the last 3 years? Yes
Could you make a better arguement for Liverpool to drop out than Arsenal? Yes

I never said you were wrong, just that you're bitter. It's your phrasing of your comments that gives it all away. Very dismissive. All hail Wooney

Sheepy99

Fescue wrote: »

Why is Arsenal even being discussed in this thread.

Because they're on a par (or near enough) with both of ye in the opinions of a decent amount of posters

Morzadec

Fescue wrote: »

We finished 7th last year. Rodgers has transformed the team in a very short period of time. Even a poor season this year won't see him sacked.

That means its not make or break.

A poor season and a disastrous transfer window absolutely won't get him sacked, you're right.

But it's what it will lead to that's important.

Not getting into the CL again could seriously cost us in our ability to bring in top class players. Chelsea and City can get by without a year in the CL - they'll always have the money to throw at the problem and make a quick return. Are United in that bracket? Probably not, though this season will tell us a lot.

Ourselves and Arsenal are definitely in the position where missing out on the CL could really really hurt us. 5 does not go into 4. One big, big team is going to miss out every year. Last time we missed out it took us 4 seasons to get back in.

If Rodgers' signings flop and don't finish in the top 4 you will have:

In the short term - some fans (a minority) calling for his head. Most fans will back him, but only the most resolute and biased won't at least question how £100m plus could be squandered. A seed of doubt will creep into the minds of many fans and we may feel that Rodgers is not up to it in the market.. That could be the first seed that leads to something more.

In the long term - it would be likely that we would find it very hard to attract top players in the summer, and it would be likely that we would be up against it against the likes of Arsenal and United. We would therefore be 5th favourites again and finding ourselves in the position where we have to upset the apple cart in order to get into the CL. If Van Gaal builds a strong United team in this period and Arsenal maintain their consistency, then we will be in trouble.

Sustained absence from the Champions League will eventually lead to many Liverpool fans questioning if Rodgers is the right man for the job. 2014 will seem like a long time ago in 2018 in most fans minds if we have gone 4 seasons on the trot outside of the Champions League.

It's not too hard to envision a scenario in which a really bad window leads to this.

And conversely, a really good window, like I said, could lead to us becoming one of Europe's top 5 teams again.

Fescue

Morzadec wrote: »

A poor season and a disastrous transfer window absolutely won't get him sacked, you're right.

But it's what it will lead to that's important.

Not getting into the CL again could seriously cost us in our ability to bring in top class players. Chelsea and City can get by without a year in the CL - they'll always have the money to throw at the problem and make a quick return. Are United in that bracket? Probably not, though this season will tell us a lot.

Ourselves and Arsenal are definitely in the position where missing out on the CL could really really hurt us. 5 does not go into 4. One big, big team is going to miss out every year. Last time we missed out it took us 4 seasons to get back in.

If Rodgers' signings flop and don't finish in the top 4 you will have:

In the short term - some fans (a minority) calling for his head. Most fans will back him, but only the most resolute and biased won't at least question how £100m plus could be squandered. A seed of doubt will creep into the minds of many fans and we may feel that Rodgers is not up to it in the market.. That could be the first seed that leads to something more.

In the long term - it would be likely that we would find it very hard to attract top players in the summer, and it would be likely that we would be up against it against the likes of Arsenal and United. We would therefore be 5th favourites again and finding ourselves in the position where we have to upset the apple cart in order to get into the CL. If Van Gaal builds a strong United team in this period and Arsenal maintain their consistency, then we will be in trouble.

Sustained absence from the Champions League will eventually lead to many Liverpool fans questioning if Rodgers is the right man for the job. 2014 will seem like a long time ago in 2018 in most fans minds if we have gone 4 seasons on the trot outside of the Champions League.

It's not too hard to envision a scenario in which a really bad window leads to this.

And conversely, a really good window, like I said, could lead to us becoming one of Europe's top 5 teams again.

The guy is the reigning manager of the year. So many things must go wrong for him to lose his job. How can it be a make or break season for him? He's probably the most secure manager in the league.

Donnielighto

niallo27 wrote: »

I doubt it. It's all pretty harmless.

I dont mean you and marty

Donnielighto

Morzadec wrote: »

And conversely, a really good window, like I said, could lead to us becoming one of Europe's top 5 teams again.

You need more than one good window to do that.

CSF

The argument that Liverpool are getting stronger doesn't hold much weight with me.

They've gained quantity, but unquestionably lost quality.

Iused2likebusts

Since this thread has been opened lallana has got injured, Borini it seems won't go to Sunderland and Remy has failed his medical. Someone get it closed before Paul Konchesky is signed as lb cover.

Agent Coulson

Oranage2 wrote: »

please and try keep it friendly, poll to follow.

Where is the poll?

DaveSuarez

Liverpool could finish 10th next season and Rodgers still wouldn't be sacked. Not a hope of it.

Soft Falling Rain

rarnes1 wrote: »

The make or break is hyperbole though and was rightly pointed out. It's obvious Rodgers is building a young squad of decent footballers. Being pipped into 4th spot by Utd who are hardly Rushden and Diamonds would hardly be a disaster, just a big disappointment

A big disappointment but I could live with it. Even with Suarez gone, long term, the squad is being beefed up which it painfully wasn't last season. I don't know how many times I despaired at seeing the likes of Aspas, Alberto and Moses as the only options. We actually have good options now, and given there's a month left in the window those options can only be enhanced.

You could say there's pressure on the team to prove they can compete without Suarez, but no more pressure than what's on Manchester United to immediately bounce back with a minimum top 4 challenge. If they don't, once a downward spiral starts they can be hard to turnaround, Liverpool would know.

Hidalgo

Fescue wrote: »

The guy is the reigning manager of the year. So many things must go wrong for him to lose his job. How can it be a make or break season for him? He's probably the most secure manager in the league.

The point Mordazec is making is that missing out on CL in the upcoming season won't straight away cost Rodgers his job. But it could be the start of that road. If Liverpool miss out they'll more than likely have fallen further behind the top 4 and witb no cl in 2015/16 it will be harder to atttact signings and break back into top 4

Rayne Wooney

You are talking about a manager who could take his spending to near a quarter of a billion pounds by the end of this summer, I'm not saying he would be sacked instantly if he got 5th next year but it would be the beginning of the end anyway IMO

How much have the likes of Atletico spent in the last 3 or 4 years?

Fair chance at least 100m will come from sales so the amount of money spent doesn't matter.

What matters is the impact said signings make

Soft Falling Rain

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

You are talking about a manager who could take his spending to near a quarter of a billion pounds by the end of this summer, I'm not saying he would be sacked instantly if he got 5th next year but it would be the beginning of the end anyway IMO

How much have the likes of Atletico spent in the last 3 or 4 years?

Quarter of a billion pounds, sounds more impressive than saying 250m doesn't it, especially when a good chunk of that is based on selling a player for club record fee.

Fescue

Hidalgo wrote: »

The point Mordazec is making is that missing out on CL in the upcoming season won't straight away cost Rodgers his job. But it could be the start of that road. If Liverpool miss out they'll more than likely have fallen further behind the top 4 and witb no cl in 2015/16 it will be harder to atttact signings and break back into top 4

I thought not having to play champions league was a big advantage when trying to finish in the top four.

Marty McFly

rarnes1 wrote: »

Fair chance at least 100m will come from sales so the amount of money spent doesn't matter.

What matters is the impact said signings make

I've never bought into this idea if saying we sold x amount of player so money spent doesn't matter.

At the end of the day if a manager brings in 100 million worth of there own players the pressure is on and rightly so.

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

You are talking about a manager who could take his spending to near a quarter of a billion pounds by the end of this summer, I'm not saying he would be sacked instantly if he got 5th next year but it would be the beginning of the end anyway IMO

How much have the likes of Atletico spent in the last 3 or 4 years?

Athletico don't get a ridiculous chunk of cash from a TV deal. Sure didn't QPR have a bigger wage bill than them last year.

Marty McFly

Marty McFly wrote: »

I've never bought into this idea if saying we sold x amount of player so money spent doesn't matter.

At the end of the day if a manager brings in 100 million worth of there own players the pressure is on and rightly so.

You might not buy into it but the clubs financial guys certainly do.

Your 2nd point I agree with.

Iused2likebusts

DaveSuarez wrote: »

Liverpool could finish 10th next season and Rodgers still wouldn't be sacked. Not a hope of it.

He would be sacked and rightly so

Iused2likebusts

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Athletico don't get a ridiculous chunk of cash from a TV deal. Sure didn't QPR have a bigger wage bill than them last year.

Also aren't Athletico 500m in debt?

Making a comparison doesn't make much sense

whatawaster

Marty McFly wrote: »

I've never bought into this idea if saying we sold x amount of player so money spent doesn't matter.

At the end of the day if a manager brings in 100 million worth of there own players the pressure is on and rightly so.

Ridiculously simplistic way of looking at it. You're dealing with Liverpool fans here: seasoned professionals at net spend arguments, you will not win.

Even just taking this summer on its own - we have lost a world class player in Suarez completely outside the managers control, yet you just say "he spent £100 million, that's that."

As it stands, we have essentially spent nothing. We lost a £75m assets and have spent less than that on replacements.

Marty McFly

whatawaster wrote: »

Ridiculously simplistic way of looking at it. You're dealing with Liverpool fans here: seasoned professionals at net spend arguments, you will not win.

Even just taking this summer on its own - we have lost a world class player in Suarez completely outside the managers control, yet you just say "he spent £100 million, that's that."

As it stands, we have essentially spent nothing. We lost a £75m assets and have spent less than that on replacements.

So you would have no problem at all if a manager brings in 100 million plus of players he selected to suit his team formation and tactics and then finished outside of the top 4?

whatawaster

Marty McFly wrote: »

So you would have no problem at all if a manager brings in 100 million plus of players he selected to suit his team formation and tactics and then finished outside of the top 4?

Would never be happy to finish outside the top 4, but if we just missed out on 4th I wouldn't throw my toys out of the pram.

We will have, I'd imagine, the youngest squad in the league. We cannot compete with City, Chelsea or United financially. This is how we are choosing to compete.
If it works this season then happy days, because it will probably mean some of those young players are a little special. If it doesn't work this season, then I'll be looking for signs of hope and progress. That's just where we are.

Will I Amnt

It wasn't long ago that the Ronaldo money was misrepresenting the United account books :pac: