The Big Question: United vs Liverpool - Read Mod Note in OP

Rayne Wooney

The context of the discussion was the past 3 or 4 years

Anyhow Mascherano and Alonso wouldn't have got into those teams when they played for Liverpool so the teams mentioned wouldn't have needed to buy them, City pre oil money the exception, Chelsea almost signed Gerrard back then

Pyjamarama

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The context of the discussion was the past 3 or 4 years

Anyhow Mascherano and Alonso wouldn't have got into those teams when they played for Liverpool so the teams mentioned wouldn't have needed to buy them, City pre oil money the exception, Chelsea almost signed Gerrard back then

So alonso and masch where good enough for real and barca but not united, Chelsea or arsenal?!? You don't think alonso would have gotten a game ahead of Carrick? And masch wouldn't have gotten into the arsenal team?!?

Rayne Wooney

Same way Carrick is good enough for a team that won 5 of the last 8 league titles in England and narrowly lost one on goal difference but wouldn't get into Chelsea, Arsenal, City and probably Liverpool

gandalf

TBH United and LvG have a massive rebuilding product on the team so I honestly do not see them finishing above Liverpool next season.

Will I Amnt

gandalf wrote: »

TBH United and LvG have a massive rebuilding product on the team so I honestly do not see them finishing above Liverpool next season.

The rebuilding is overstated IMO. Those players under proper management will be a different prospect next season. It's a squad full of winners and a manager who I expect will get the best out of them.
If another very good CM comes in along with 2 very good defenders I think United will be well placed to overtake Liverpool. The remainder of the transfer window is crucial though.

RasTa

gandalf wrote: »

TBH United and LvG have a massive rebuilding product on the team so I honestly do not see them finishing above Liverpool next season.

How much?

CSF

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

A period of greatness. Which was A long time ago, not sure how it's relevant. So if United win the league next year is that a revival also? And No, I'm not a United fan. Liverpool fans on here just like to think when people disagree with them the person must follow United. I stated that Liverpool had a good season last year. But I wouldn't call 1 year a revival.

I'm not a Liverpool fan at all and yes I do think it would be termed as a revival under Van Gaal. Why wouldn't it?

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The context of the discussion was the past 3 or 4 years

Anyhow Mascherano and Alonso wouldn't have got into those teams when they played for Liverpool so the teams mentioned wouldn't have needed to buy them, City pre oil money the exception, Chelsea almost signed Gerrard back then

Alonso is one of the best midfielders to have played in the prem since the turn of the century and wouldve graced any team in the league while he was at liverpool.

Iused2likebusts

gandalf wrote: »

TBH United and LvG have a massive rebuilding product on the team so I honestly do not see them finishing above Liverpool next season.

as things stand theres little or nothing in it. Depends on signings between now and the end of the window.

Rayne Wooney

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Alonso is one of the best midfielders to have played in the prem since the turn of the century and wouldve graced any team in the league while he was at liverpool.

That's great, still he was no massive improvement on what the teams had so none of them needed to buy him

gosplan

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The context of the discussion was the past 3 or 4 years

Anyhow Mascherano and Alonso wouldn't have got into those teams when they played for Liverpool so the teams mentioned wouldn't have needed to buy them, City pre oil money the exception, Chelsea almost signed Gerrard back then

Alonso and Mascherano would have gotten into any team. Maybe Makelele at Chelsea ahead of Masch. Maybe Essien for the couple of seasons he was awesome.

I'm an arsenal fan and am stunned that you're effectively suggesting Denilson and Song would have kept them out. Neither would Fletcher or Carrick.

Rayne Wooney

gosplan wrote: »

Alonso and Mascherano would have gotten into any team. Maybe Makelele at Chelsea ahead of Masch. Maybe Essien for the couple of seasons he was awesome.

I'm an arsenal fan and am stunned that you're effectively suggesting Denilson and Song would have kept them out. Neither would Fletcher or Carrick.

The point is none of the teams wanted them, if they had there is a good chance United, Chelsea, Arsenal would have signed them.

Gerrard, Torres and Suarez are the top players over the past 7 or 8 years and all have either come very close to signing for one of the teams mentioned or have signed in Torres' case.

whatawaster

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The context of the discussion was the past 3 or 4 years

Anyhow Mascherano and Alonso wouldn't have got into those teams when they played for Liverpool so the teams mentioned wouldn't have needed to buy them, City pre oil money the exception, Chelsea almost signed Gerrard back then

All 3 of Alonso, Gerrard and Mascherano would have walked into the United team, even when they were winning all those titles. United's strengths were a quality attack (Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez . . . ) and defense (VDS, Vidic, Rio, Evra). Their midfield was their weakness and they won in spite of this.

The reason Liverpool's stars weren't and won't be picked off by PL teams is because Liverpool are a well-off club and a massive club who pay good wages. We aren't Villa or Southampton. We aren't even Spurs. Players tend to leave Liverpool on Liverpool's terms.

gandalf

Will I Amnt wrote: »

The rebuilding is overstated IMO. Those players under proper management will be a different prospect next season. It's a squad full of winners and a manager who I expect will get the best out of them.
If another very good CM comes in along with 2 very good defenders I think United will be well placed to overtake Liverpool. The remainder of the transfer window is crucial though.

TBH yes it is very dependent on signings from both teams. I think United are hamstrung slightly without CL next season which may mean they will have to pay over the odds in wages for their targets.

RasTa wrote: »

How much?

Around 5 points I reckon

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

as things stand theres little or nothing in it. Depends on signings between now and the end of the window.

At the moment Liverpool are a far more stable proposition. If United make a couple of big signings and Van Gaal beds in quickly then yes it will be close.

Pyjamarama

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Same way Carrick is good enough for a team that won 5 of the last 8 league titles in England and narrowly lost one on goal difference but wouldn't get into Chelsea, Arsenal, City and probably Liverpool

I think Carrick was excellent for man utd but I don't think he's the same level as Alonso. He certainly had better players around him too.

Zico

Pyjamarama wrote: »

You're right, alonso, mascherano and Gerard weren't remotely up to that level.

Alonso is probably the only Liverpool player I wished Utd had signed since John Barnes.

Mascherano wasn't great during his time in England, he couldn't even get a game at West Ham, but he's been much better at Barca and he just had an amazing World Cup.

(The next line is NSFS )

Gerrard might have developed into a 'top top' player at a club where he wasn't overindulged or placed on pedestal beyond his abilities.

Pyjamarama

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The point is none of the teams wanted them, if they had there is a good chance United, Chelsea, Arsenal would have signed them.

Gerrard, Torres and Suarez are the top players over the past 7 or 8 years and all have either come very close to signing for one of the teams mentioned or have signed in Torres' case.

They went to bigger clubs than any of the above 3. I don't think city or Chelsea have tried to buy Messi it doesn't mean that he wouldn't improve them.

gosplan

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The point is none of the teams wanted them, if they had there is a good chance United, Chelsea, Arsenal would have signed them.

Gerrard, Torres and Suarez are the top players over the past 7 or 8 years and all have either come very close to signing for one of the teams mentioned or have signed in Torres' case.

No, just plain no.

You clearly stated they wouldn't get into the team.

As regards the nonsense about clubs not being in for them.

Arsenal weren't buying anyone at that level for a decade and the last player to go between Liverpool and Utd was half a century ago - it just doesn't happen.

You don't actually believe this nonsense, do you?

Dublin Spur

if Suarez had stayed Liverpool would edge it but they have lost so much in terms of goals, assists, chances created with him going.

For me:
4th - Man Utd
5th - Liverpool

Rayne Wooney

Pyjamarama wrote: »

They went to bigger clubs than any of the above 3.

That is insignificant to this discussion, Bebe signed for a bigger club than Arsenal but it doesn't mean Arsenal would have wanted to sign him

Let's summarise, over the past 3 or 4 years Torres and Suarez have been Liverpool's best players, did Torres sign for Chelsea and would Suarez have signed for Arsenal had they not skimped on the fee? Yes and most probably yes.

So let's get back to the original point, if Liverpool miss out on top 4 but one of their players emerges on that level, if City, Chelsea or Arsenal are interested there is a good chance one of them could sign them

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The point is none of the teams wanted them, if they had there is a good chance United, Chelsea, Arsenal would have signed them.

Gerrard, Torres and Suarez are the top players over the past 7 or 8 years and all have either come very close to signing for one of the teams mentioned or have signed in Torres' case.

when alonso was at liverpool their league finishes were 5th 3rd 3rd 4th 2nd and in the CL winners, last 16, runners up, semi final, quarter final. At that point in time Liverpool had no financial need to sell and Id imagine alonso had no urge to join an english team. I think this time even you will have to admit you have probably gone too far in suggesting he wouldnt have improved any of those teams.

CSF

Dublin Spur wrote: »

if Suarez had stayed Liverpool would edge it but they have lost so much in terms of goals, assists, chances created with him going.

For me:
4th - Man Utd
5th - Liverpool

If Suarez had stayed, Liverpool would destroy it IMO. Now I can't call between the 2.

gosplan

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

That is insignificant to this discussion, Bebe signed for a bigger club than Arsenal but it doesn't mean Arsenal would have wanted to sign him

Let's summarise, over the past 3 or 4 years Torres and Suarez have been Liverpool's best players, did Torres sign for Chelsea and would Suarez have signed for Arsenal had they not skimped on the fee? Yes and most probably yes.

So let's get back to the original point, if Liverpool miss out on top 4 but one of their players emerges on that level, if City, Chelsea or Arsenal are interested there is a good chance one of them could sign them

Or let's not?

Do you, like you said, believe that Alonso and Mascherano wouldn't have gotten into the Utd or Arsenal teams ahead of Song/Denilson or Fletcher/Carrick


Nice jibe about Arsenal btw. Would same logic make Benfica 'bigger' than Utd.

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

That is insignificant to this discussion, Bebe signed for a bigger club than Arsenal but it doesn't mean Arsenal would have wanted to sign him

Let's summarise, over the past 3 or 4 years Torres and Suarez have been Liverpool's best players, did Torres sign for Chelsea and would Suarez have signed for Arsenal had they not skimped on the fee? Yes and most probably yes.

So let's get back to the original point, if Liverpool miss out on top 4 but one of their players emerges on that level, if City, Chelsea or Arsenal are interested there is a good chance one of them could sign them

In time yes as in 2/3 seasons but not next season. Its all to do with finances and players ambitions. If utd miss out on CL again some of their players will probably want to go. Anyway back to this alonso comment do you really stand by it?

Rayne Wooney

I have nothing against Arsenal, is it not okay to say United are the bigger club?

gosplan

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I have nothing against Arsenal, is it not okay to say United are the bigger club?

ah, thought you meant Benfica.

Heartfelt apologies

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I have nothing against Arsenal, is it not okay to say United are the bigger club?

The problem is you seem to have something against another club and I find it difficult to take many of your posts serious.

CSF

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

The problem is you seem to have something against another club and I find it difficult to take many of your posts serious.

Tbh you're not the only one.

Alfred Borden

United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, City and Spurs all could get top four imo. Everton and Newcastle will be the chasing pack. Some season ahead.

Donnielighto

They all have lovely bottoms.

Oranage2

If the season started tomorrow and the transfer window closed, Liverpool are undoubtedly in the better position. Man uniteds whole defense has question marks around it and their midfield is also quite questionable.

Rafael.. Jones... Evans ..Shaw

This is a pretty poor defense. The same with playing fellaini and carrick in the same midfield is asking for trouble.

Liverpool on the other hand have bought most of the best players from a team that finished 6th, and It's not like these players are young guys with massive potential for improvement, no, they're good mid table players in their prime playing to their potential.

A lot could depend on on the young players, Liverpool have some of the most exciting youngsters in the world (sterling, coutinho, can, markovic) if these players step up then united don't have a chance. On a side note it'll be very exiting to see these players perform in the cups, I don't think united have young players that match these, Maybe Shaw and janacuzi?

Fortunately for both the window is still open, one key factor is united have 3 star players (mata, rooney, rvp) and Liverpool don't have any, Sturridge possibly but I don't rate him quite there yet. So if united sort out their defense they'll be unquestionably favourites to finish ahead as I don't see Liverpool having the ability to sign world class players or their youngsters to make the step up to world class.

In any case it's shaping up to be a very exciting premiership.

ronjo

If I was a betting man I would bet on United to finish ahead of Liverpool but I just hope Arsenal can finish ahead of both of them.

Will I Amnt

Oranage2 wrote: »

If the season started tomorrow and the transfer window closed, Liverpool are undoubtedly in the better position. Man uniteds whole defense has question marks around it and their midfield is also quite questionable.

Rafael.. Jones... Evans ..Shaw

This is a pretty poor defense. The same with playing fellaini and carrick in the same midfield is asking for trouble.

Liverpool on the other hand have bought most of the best players from a team that finished 6th, and It's not like these players are young guys with massive potential for improvement, no, they're good mid table players in their prime playing to their potential.

A lot could depend on on the young players, Liverpool have some of the most exciting youngsters in the world (sterling, coutinho, can, markovic) if these players step up then united don't have a chance. On a side note it'll be very exiting to see these players perform in the cups, I don't think united have young players that match these, Maybe Shaw and janacuzi?

Fortunately for both the window is still open, one key factor is united have 3 star players (mata, rooney, rvp) and Liverpool don't have any, Sturridge possibly but I don't rate him quite there yet. So if united sort out their defense they'll be unquestionably favourites to finish ahead as I don't see Liverpool having the ability to sign world class players or their youngsters to make the step up to world class.

In any case it's shaping up to be a very exciting premiership.

Southampton finished 8th...and it's Januzaj.

bucketybuck

Oranage2 wrote: »

A lot could depend on on the young players, Liverpool have some of the most exciting youngsters in the world (sterling, coutinho, can, markovic)

Is this a wind-up?

Leftist

CSF wrote: »

You're probably right, but do bear in mind that we would have had a similar conversation last year, nobody took them seriously either.

yep but you have to take into account that last year the established top 3 changed manager though.

there's no way we'll see the same defeatist chelsea this season, city will be stronger and liverpool have lost their best player by some distance.

last year liverpool did really well, far beyond anyone's expectations.

but their signings this summer are really uninspiring.

It's all predictions but I can see them sliding. They don't have much alternative approaches to a game other than their plan A. And other teams will adapt to that.

That being said, the thread is about who will finish higher between two clubs and united imo, could take time to work under lvg. Their signings over the next month are going to be crucial and I can't see them being very good signings either.

CSF

Leftist wrote: »

yep but you have to take into account that last year the established top 3 changed manager though.

there's no way we'll see the same defeatist chelsea this season, city will be stronger and liverpool have lost their best player by some distance.

last year liverpool did really well, far beyond anyone's expectations.

but their signings this summer are really uninspiring.

It's all predictions but I can see them sliding. They don't have much alternative approaches to a game other than their plan A. And other teams will adapt to that.

That being said, the thread is about who will finish higher between two clubs and united imo, could take time to work under lvg. Their signings over the next month are going to be crucial and I can't see them being very good signings either.

Well Chelsea and City are clearly going to be ridiculously strong without question, there is definitely a question mark over how strong United will be though.

Oranage2

bucketybuck wrote: »

Is this a wind-up?

What exactly do you disagree with?

Oranage2

Oranage2 wrote: »

What exactly do you disagree with?

In fairness, you change your opinion about Liverpool with the seasons.

Didn't you tip Liverpool to finish outside top 6 last year and have said Rodgers signings have been poor.

Now all of a sudden Liverpool have the best youngsters in the world!

You're not fooling me

bucketybuck

Oranage2 wrote: »

What exactly do you disagree with?

The idea that Liverpool have some of the most exciting youngsters in the world is straight out of the "everybody thinks they have the prettiest wife at home" school of thought.

Iused2likebusts

bucketybuck wrote: »

The idea that Liverpool have some of the most exciting youngsters in the world is straight out of the "everybody thinks they have the prettiest wife at home" school of thought.

He doesn't support Liverpool arsenal I think.

Zico

Oranage2 wrote: »

If the season started tomorrow and the transfer window closed, Liverpool are undoubtedly in the better position. Man uniteds whole defense has question marks around it and their midfield is also quite questionable.

Rafael.. Jones... Evans ..Shaw

This is a pretty poor defense. The same with playing fellaini and carrick in the same midfield is asking for trouble.

Liverpool on the other hand have bought most of the best players from a team that finished 6th, and It's not like these players are young guys with massive potential for improvement, no, they're good mid table players in their prime playing to their potential.

A lot could depend on on the young players, Liverpool have some of the most exciting youngsters in the world (sterling, coutinho, can, markovic) if these players step up then united don't have a chance. On a side note it'll be very exiting to see these players perform in the cups, I don't think united have young players that match these, Maybe Shaw and janacuzi?

Fortunately for both the window is still open, one key factor is united have 3 star players (mata, rooney, rvp) and Liverpool don't have any, Sturridge possibly but I don't rate him quite there yet. So if united sort out their defense they'll be unquestionably favourites to finish ahead as I don't see Liverpool having the ability to sign world class players or their youngsters to make the step up to world class.

In any case it's shaping up to be a very exciting premiership.

Good man, your thread was dying there and needed some absolute horse**** like that to stir things up again.

I love your work.;)

Rayne Wooney

If the transfer window closes tomorrow I don't think United would keep up with Liverpool

We have decent squad players but our first 11 has 3 gaping holes and we won't be able to compete with the top 4 unless we fill them

As it stands Cleverley will probably be starting in midfield, with Jones, Smalling and Evans the 3 CBs. It's laughable at this stage

Add 2 or 3 of Vidal, Strootman, Di Maria, Benatia, Hummels etc and it looks a lot different. I think we have a good chance of signing one player of that quality but more than one the chance falls drastically. We'll see what happens over the next few weeks

K-9

Will I Amnt wrote: »

After his big spiel about having the funds for all these "world class" players, the fans will have the knives out for him if he doesn't deliver.

Some fans will but I'd say he's built up enough goodwill from last season and even the one before that, he's probably the safest manager in the EPL.

I think a large section of both sets of fans are under estimating the job that needs done. Liverpool are adding much needed squad depth, a necessity, as I'm sure it was noted by many opposing fans on this thread, last season. Liverpools signings are mostly long term, players that will see out their career here if things go well and young players that will be here for a few seasons at least.

With United it's harder to tell, needs more signings to see where they are at but its a rebuilding job, probably more so than Liverpool as Lfc are just replacing one player and adding much needed depth. United have LVG and enough good attacking players to paper over any cracks that remain this season.

The bookies have it right, United have to be favourites to finish ahead of Lfc

Will I Amnt

K-9 wrote: »

Some fans will but I'd say he's built up enough goodwill from last season and even the one before that, he's probably the safest manager in the EPL.

I think a large section of both sets of fans are under estimating the job that needs done. Liverpool are adding much needed squad depth, a necessity, as I'm sure it was noted by many opposing fans on this thread, last season. Liverpools signings are mostly long term, players that will see out their career here if things go well and young players that will be here for a few seasons at least.

With United it's harder to tell, needs more signings to see where they are at but its a rebuilding job, probably more so than Liverpool as Lfc are just replacing one player and adding much needed depth. United have LVG and enough good attacking players to paper over any cracks that remain this season.

The bookies have it right, United have to be favourites to finish ahead of Lfc

I was talking about Woodward :pac:

K-9

bucketybuck wrote: »

Is this a wind-up?

Somebody posted the ages of the Liverpool squad earlier, Coutinho, Sterling, Markovic, Can, lanagan (;)) all young, Henderson, Mignolet and Sturridge are hardly ancient or even in their peak years. Some very exciting players coming up from the youths as well. It isn't the best in the world but very arguably the best in the top 6/7. The club did pay £55 Million odd for those players mentioned with only really Coutinho and Sturridge bargains.

K-9

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I was talking about Woodward :pac:

Tbh I'm not a huge believer in this top, top marquee type signing, both clubs rarely do that, Van Persie probably the most recent exception, oh and Mata. That's my point gone then. Getting Mata, RVP and Rooney to work effectively together will be the best bit of business LVG does this window.

Will I Amnt

K-9 wrote: »

Tbh I'm not a huge believer in this top, top marquee type signing, both clubs rarely do that, Van Persie probably the most recent exception, oh and Mata. That's my point gone then. Getting Mata, RVP and Rooney to work effectively together will be the best bit of business LVG does this window.

Yeah but he should be keeping his mouth shut about signing superstars if that's not what's planned. It's only going to piss people off when it doesn't materialise.

Knex*

Liverpool have done better business this summer, than they did last. Far better. And that's when the Club jumped from 7th to 2nd.

Now, I don't think we'll have anything like the season we did last year, but the trend would point towards Rodgers' coaching, tactics, man management etc, being a major part in the transformation, more than actual signings Liverpool have recently brought in.

I like much of the business so far, and while I think we do need more, I expect Liverpool to come pretty damn close, at the very least, to securing 4th.

Its the extra games, this season, that is going to throw them.

K-9

Knex. wrote: »

Liverpool have done better business this summer, than they did last. Far better. And that's when the Club jumped from 7th to 2nd.

On the surface it appears so, Can and Markovic are young and there's a high enough risk element there. Lallana, Lovren and Lambert less so for me. Rodgers transfer record is just ok so far, though he largely shopping in the £6-12 Million category.

Now, I don't think we'll have anything like the season we did last year, but the trend would point towards Rodgers' coaching, tactics, man management etc, being a major part in the transformation, more than actual signings Liverpool have recently brought in.

One big positive, 3rd or 4th longest serving manager now :eek: and he's proven his coaching and tactical nous last season, with a few mistakes a long the way. Suarez obviously helped Lfc to over achieve last year but Rodgers played a big big part in that too, he got everything he could out of that squad, Moses and Aspas aside!

I like much of the business so far, and while I think we do need more, I expect Liverpool to come pretty damn close, at the very least, to securing 4th.

Its the extra games, this season, that is going to throw them.

That and getting out of the group would be considered pretty decent in any other season, but this one is crucial. There's still money to spend and Rodgers is going to use it by the looks of it. 2 FB's and an attacker from all reliable reports. CM would be the obvious weakness for me, Can is raw, Henderson has improved and I think Allen will do well if he keeps injury free, but it still lacks a quality CM for me. Even the money we've to spend this Summer was never going to address every weakness though.

CSF

Knex. wrote: »

Liverpool have done better business this summer, than they did last. Far better. And that's when the Club jumped from 7th to 2nd.

Now, I don't think we'll have anything like the season we did last year, but the trend would point towards Rodgers' coaching, tactics, man management etc, being a major part in the transformation, more than actual signings Liverpool have recently brought in.

I like much of the business so far, and while I think we do need more, I expect Liverpool to come pretty damn close, at the very least, to securing 4th.

Its the extra games, this season, that is going to throw them.

The big variable though is Suarez. He needs to be replaced. 3 players in the same position of a much lower level won't replace him.