The Big Question: United vs Liverpool - Read Mod Note in OP

Knex*

CSF wrote: »

The big variable though is Suarez. He needs to be replaced. 3 players in the same position of a much lower level won't replace him.

I don't really subscribe to that logic, as I don't think he can be replaced.

Plenty of things you can do to counter the loss, however. Firstly, you stop playing two up front, and provide more control in the middle of the field, and invariably, more protection for the back.

Cut down on the 50 goals conceded, and you don't need to replace the full 30 goals from Suarez.

Sterling, Coutinho, Sturridge, and even Henderson are all expected to improve. And the likes of Can and Markovic have a tonne of potential, and the current ability to be productive this coming season.

Suarez in the latter part of the season was nowhere near as good as he was when he first came back from the ban, either. 12 goals from Liverpool's final 50, although he assisted a fair whack, I would say. I'm not trying to disregard Suarez's contribution here, he was incredible and one of the best Liverpool players of all time, but it does point towards growth of the other players, Sterling and Coutinho in particular, and the progress of the team as a whole.

I would have been happy enough to have a fit Remy, and two fullbacks added. Its unfortunate with him, as he could easily cover for Sturridge, or compliment him, when needed, such is his style of play. Great value, as well, it appeared.

I'm not sure as to who is a viable target now, with a similar talent and style, that Liverpool can go out and get.

Anyway, while the battle at the top is getting tougher, I am content enough with how Liverpool are shaping up.

Funny noone is talking about Spurs, though. Dark horse, for me.

Fescue

CSF wrote: »

The big variable though is Suarez. He needs to be replaced. 3 players in the same position of a much lower level won't replace him.

If you just look at the numbers, then if Liverpool can concede less goals that will go some way to mitigating his loss. Plus I don't think Liverpool need to score 100 plus goals this year. United won the league with 68 back in 2009 I think.

The most important thing for Liverpool and probably most teams is scoring the first goal in a game. I think a lot of their success last year came from their high intensity starts. If they can maintain that this year they will do well I think.

K-9

CSF wrote: »

The big variable though is Suarez. He needs to be replaced. 3 players in the same position of a much lower level won't replace him.

But he is irreplaceable. I suppose the example is United after Ronaldo, they scored more the season after. Can't see us getting over a hundred goals again though. One more quality attacking addition and I'd say it isn't bad. Beats Moses, Aspas and Alberto on the bench anyway, swapping Sterling for Coutinho, vice versa, or fitting them both on the pitch was about the only attacking options Rodgers had last season.

CSF

They don't have to sign a direct replacement for him though, just somebody of the same (or as close as possible) quality, and change it up so that the team focuses on their strengths instead. Sign Vidal this summer and everyone at Liverpool would have a right to be happy, sell Suarez and sign a vast number of inferior players with nobody even close to the same calibre as him, and that doesn't help in any way.

The idea that other players in the team are going to step up, so that Liverpool will be just as good as before Suarez left, if they tighten up at the back, is very hopeful at best.

Will I Amnt

I see a lot of people subscribing to this theory of "if we concede less then we don't need to replace all his goals"

While it might sound sensible it's an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it IMO. Suarez had most back lines absolutely sh*tting themselves, afraid to let him out of their sight, he caused absolute havoc and disruption to defences, allowing the freedom for the rest of the team. That's not there as things stand. Liverpool will miss that presence on the pitch more than some people seem to think.

Knex*

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I see a lot of people subscribing to this theory of "if we concede less then we don't need to replace all his goals"

While it might sound sensible it's an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it IMO. Suarez had most back lines absolutely sh*tting themselves, afraid to let him out of their sight, he caused absolute havoc and disruption to defences, allowing the freedom for the rest of the team. That's not there as things stand. Liverpool will miss that presence on the pitch more than some people seem to think.

That logic is just as simplistic. Just the other side of the same coin.

Will I Amnt

Knex. wrote: »

That logic is just as simplistic. Just the other side of the same coin.

How so?

Iused2likebusts

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I see a lot of people subscribing to this theory of "if we concede less then we don't need to replace all his goals"

While it might sound sensible it's an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it IMO. Suarez had most back lines absolutely sh*tting themselves, afraid to let him out of their sight, he caused absolute havoc and disruption to defences, allowing the freedom for the rest of the team. That's not there as things stand. Liverpool will miss that presence on the pitch more than some people seem to think.

They had 19 pts in the 9 league games which suarez was suspended for from the ivanovic biting incident with 6 clean sheets I think it was. So I do think the tactics were changed to a more attacking approach to get the most out of having 2 great attacking options. It remains to be seen what will happen this time around. In the 33 league games suarez played last year Liverpool kept 6 or 7 clean sheets yet scored a lot more goals.

Knex*

Will I Amnt wrote: »

How so?

On phone and battery about to die, but I'll get back to it tomorrow.

I could be wrong, mind, just how it strikes me now, anyway.

CSF

Knex. wrote: »

That logic is just as simplistic. Just the other side of the same coin.

I really don't see how.

Knex*

Essentially, they are both simple concepts.

One highlights a pro to having him on the field, the other highlights a negative.

Obviously, now that hes gone, the easiest thing to do is to improve the negative than to replace the positive.

CSF

CSF wrote: »

The big variable though is Suarez. He needs to be replaced. 3 players in the same position of a much lower level won't replace him.

Liverpool leaked 50 goals last year and scored 100.

While a lot of Suarez's goals need replacing the all don't.

Knocking 15—20 get goals off the goals against column would be a way of compensating.

Zico

If only there were a Diego Forlan type replacement.

Iused2likebusts

Zico wrote: »

If only there were a Diego Forlan type replacement.

Or even a young dalian atkinson☺

AdamD

rarnes1 wrote: »

In fairness, you change your opinion about Liverpool with the seasons.

Didn't you tip Liverpool to finish outside top 6 last year and have said Rodgers signings have been poor.

Now all of a sudden Liverpool have the best youngsters in the world!

You're not fooling me

Isn't that perfectly logical?

CSF

rarnes1 wrote: »

Liverpool leaked 50 goals last year and scored 100.

While a lot of Suarez's goals need replacing the all don't.

Knocking 15—20 get goals off the goals against column would be a way of compensating.

I really really don't think it works that way. Delving into goals scored and goals conceded as a measure doesn't work that well.

28 of Liverpool's 50 goals conceded were scored in games where they scored 3 goals or more.

Liverpool's goals scored will decrease next season, I think that is a certainty. Their goals conceded will very likely decrease too. I'd be willing to wager a decent amount of money on that.

I just don't get how people think that without signing a world class player to replace the world class one that left, that the total output in terms of results will be the same. Especially since none of the players signed by Liverpool at the moment are even in the calibre of players below Suarez.

Bringing in a Vidal, a Di Maria, a Reus. A player of that calibre (even though I don't think any of those players are quite as good as Luis Suarez) is a must if Liverpool are to stand still next season, and with other teams doing more than just standing still, they'll need to at least stand still to avoid being pushed backwards.

CSF

Knex. wrote: »

Essentially, they are both simple concepts.

One highlights a pro to having him on the field, the other highlights a negative.

Obviously, now that hes gone, the easiest thing to do is to improve the negative than to replace the positive.

Are you implying that having Suarez in the team has led to them conceding more goals? I don't see how you would come to that conclusion.

Edit - No you're not, but I still disagree with you. Liverpool's perceived defensive frailties were nowhere near as big a weakness as Suarez was a strength.

CSF

CSF wrote: »

I really really don't think it works that way. Delving into goals scored and goals conceded as a measure doesn't work that well.

28 of Liverpool's 50 goals conceded were scored in games where they scored 3 goals or more.

Liverpool's goals scored will decrease next season, I think that is a certainty. Their goals conceded will very likely decrease too. I'd be willing to wager a decent amount of money on that.

I just don't get how people think that without signing a world class player to replace the world class one that left, that the total output in terms of results will be the same. Especially since none of the players signed by Liverpool at the moment are even in the calibre of players below Suarez.

Bringing in a Vidal, a Di Maria, a Reus. A player of that calibre (even though I don't think any of those players are quite as good as Luis Suarez) is a must if Liverpool are to stand still next season, and with other teams doing more than just standing still, they'll need to at least stand still to avoid being pushed backwards.

Does anyone think Liverpools output will be the same? Haven't met any genuine supporter that thinks we'll get the points total from last season.

II'd take 4th spot right now and last 16 of the CL. I'd say a good few would agree

Zico

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Or even a young dalian atkinson☺

Edinson Cavani-esque

Milkers

Just out of interest for those who believe strongly that United will finish above Liverpool, do you think most of the 20 point gap will be bridged by Liverpool dropping points from last year or United gaining them? How much in each case at a rough estimate?

niallo27

Milkers wrote: »

Just out of interest for those who believe strongly that United will finish above Liverpool, do you think most of the 20 point gap will be bridged by Liverpool dropping points from last year or United gaining them? How much in each case at a rough estimate?

For liverpool to drop 10 and utd to gain 10 is very realistic. If utd don't gain at least 10 or 12 points from last season I'll be shocked.

niallo27

Don't know why there is a blue fella winking at the top of my post.

Zico

Oranage 2

Oranagen 3

CSF

rarnes1 wrote: »

Does anyone think Liverpools output will be the same? Haven't met any genuine supporter that thinks we'll get the points total from last season.

II'd take 4th spot right now and last 16 of the CL. I'd say a good few would agree

I've no doubt you would, but there isn't a measurable ceiling to where Liverpool will fall, they're gonna be weaker in every match than they were last season (bar the first few that Suarez didn't play in), so its difficult to say exactly what way it will turn out. Momentum is a huge thing and with Suarez they were able to build lots of it, beating City, and looking like they were going to beat everyone before ultimately (and very unluckily IMO) falling just short.

I think with Suarez in the team they believed they were going to beat everyone too. They will lose that too. The impact that will have is significant but ultimately pretty difficult to measure. Bring in another player that strikes similar fear into the opposition and sends that confidence rippling throughout the Liverpool team and I think everyone has got to look at Liverpool as pretty likely for top 4 again.

I mean before Suarez left, I didn't for a minute think that there was a chance Liverpool wouldn't make top 4 this season.

ronjo

rarnes1 wrote: »

Does anyone think Liverpools output will be the same? Haven't met any genuine supporter that thinks we'll get the points total from last season.

II'd take 4th spot right now and last 16 of the CL. I'd say a good few would agree

Is that the general consensus of Liverpool fans? After pushing all the way for the title last season it seems very defeatist.

As an Arsenal fan I do know all about being happy with 4th although this season definitely not.... at this stage anyway.

OwaynOTT

ronjo wrote: »

Is that the general consensus of Liverpool fans? After pushing all the way for the title last season it seems very defeatist.

As an Arsenal fan I do know all about being happy with 4th although this season definitely not.... at this stage anyway.

Big difference about being happy to get champions league after only being back in for one season and being happy with fourth after consistently being in champions league.
I'd be happy with fourth this year but would expect the club to kick on the follow year. I also think the club would be happy with fourth next year.

Rayne Wooney

It would be stupid not being happy with 4th now next season for United and Liverpool, missing out is a big mess for both clubs

United missing out would be a disaster, sponsors start sweating and people will inevitably be asking if the downward trajectory can be stopped

For Liverpool getting CL again would have them realistically able to sign some of the names that are just fantasy never going to happen types now, Reus and what have you. Miss out and it's back down a level of player

ronjo

Any fans of either club willing to state now they would be unhappy with 4th place right now?

ronjo

ronjo wrote: »

Is that the general consensus of Liverpool fans? After pushing all the way for the title last season it seems very defeatist.

As an Arsenal fan I do know all about being happy with 4th although this season definitely not.... at this stage anyway.

Defeatist? No way


Getting back into the CL should be number 1 aim. More money for club for more signings and aim higher season after.

martingriff

rarnes1 wrote: »

Does anyone think Liverpools output will be the same? Haven't met any genuine supporter that thinks we'll get the points total from last season.

II'd take 4th spot right now and last 16 of the CL. I'd say a good few would agree

Will we score the same amount I don't think so however I do not think we will let in as many either. We do not need a 30 goal striker (but would be nice) if we make the defence more solid. I would take 4th spot as that mean we can go into qualification round of the CL however I be dissapointed if we do not at least get 3rd. Last 16 in CL is a bare minimmum

5starpool

I really have no idea how this season will pan out for either club. I didn't foresee last seasons performances from either, and there are still lots of things that have changed about both, so honestly it could go either way. Utd will improve, that is surely evident, and I think it's very likely that Liverpool will do worse, but to what degree is the mystery.

ronjo

So possibly the first tine in 40 odd years that both sets of fans would be happy with 4th

Will I Amnt

ronjo wrote: »

So possibly the first tine in 40 odd years that both sets of fans would be happy with 4th

It's not really a case of being happy with it, it's the minimum requirement and it would mean getting back on track for United. I don't think there'll be an open top bus :pac:

darced

This post has been deleted.

CSF

martingriff wrote: »

Will we score the same amount I don't think so however I do not think we will let in as many either. We do not need a 30 goal striker (but would be nice) if we make the defence more solid. I would take 4th spot as that mean we can go into qualification round of the CL however I be dissapointed if we do not at least get 3rd. Last 16 in CL is a bare minimmum

I think if we're merely referring to Suarez as being worth 30 goals we're doing him a disservice. His assists were in double figures aswell, and how many other goals would he have been involved in and how many were scored as a result of him having to be doublemarked?

Sterling and Sturridge aren't going to get anywhere near as much space to impress now that Suarez is gone.

ronjo

ronjo wrote: »

So possibly the first tine in 40 odd years that both sets of fans would be happy with 4th

Or another spin on it would be both sets of fans would be disappointed with less than 4th

ronjo

rarnes1 wrote: »

Or another spin on it would be both sets of fans would be disappointed with less than 4th

Absolutely not as there is nothing unusual about that.

DildoFaggins

The way Liverpool played last season I still think they can get a lot of goals and do well they've upgraded their defence and midfield decent enough, however I'd be worried if Sturridge got injured for a long stretch I'm sorry but Ricky Lambert and Fabio Borini don't belong at this level,especially with the extra games ship out Borini and just get Remy.

K-9

CSF wrote: »

I think if we're merely referring to Suarez as being worth 30 goals we're doing him a disservice. His assists were in double figures aswell, and how many other goals would he have been involved in and how many were scored as a result of him having to be doublemarked?

Sterling and Sturridge aren't going to get anywhere near as much space to impress now that Suarez is gone.

But it has been said over and over again, and that's because it is true, there is nobody out there than can replace Suarez. Having a bench that doesn't consist of Moses and Aspas will help, there were times even with Suarez we were crying out for depth in the squad and it wasn't there. Liverpool aren't going to score 101 goals again or anywhere near it, nor winning 11 games in a row. Obviously getting somebody like Sanchez would have helped but the club generally isn't in the market to for that standard of player, it looks to find the next Suarez or Torres .

The team isn't going to be as gung ho next season, I very much doubt Rodgers will be so attacking next season, he'll have to find a different balance.

DildoFaggins wrote: »

The way Liverpool played last season I still think they can get a lot of goals and do well they've upgraded their defence and midfield decent enough, however I'd be worried if Sturridge got injured for a long stretch I'm sorry but Ricky Lambert and Fabio Borini don't belong at this level,especially with the extra games ship out Borini and just get Remy.

Rodgers has said he wants 1 more attacker, Remy fell through and we've been linked with Bony. I'm not sure if he is the answer but that's the type of player they usually go after, young enough and the potential to improve. Arsenal conceded 41 goals last season, albeit skewed by some big defeats, but Liverpool don't have that much to do to get under conceding 40 goals or so. Keep the momentum at Anfield in particular and that will go a long way to 4th.

Sterling and Coutinho will also have come on a lot from last season. Obviously Suarez helps big time but they've another season at a high level which will do them no harm.

CSF

K-9 wrote: »

But it has been said over and over again, and that's because it is true, there is nobody out there than can replace Suarez. Having a bench that doesn't consist of Moses and Aspas will help, there were times even with Suarez we were crying out for depth in the squad and it wasn't there. Liverpool aren't going to score 101 goals again or anywhere near it, nor winning 11 games in a row. Obviously getting somebody like Sanchez would have helped but the club generally isn't in the market to for that standard of player, it looks to find the next Suarez or Torres .

The team isn't going to be as gung ho next season, I very much doubt Rodgers will be so attacking next season, he'll have to find a different balance.



Rodgers has said he wants 1 more attacker, Remy fell through and we've been linked with Bony. I'm not sure if he is the answer but that's the type of player they usually go after, young enough and the potential to improve. Arsenal conceded 41 goals last season, albeit skewed by some big defeats, but Liverpool don't have that much to do to get under conceding 40 goals or so. Keep the momentum at Anfield in particular and that will go a long way to 4th.

Sterling and Coutinho will also have come on a lot from last season. Obviously Suarez helps big time but they've another season at a high level which will do them no harm.

So you don't think Liverpool are going to be significantly worse next season for the loss of Suarez?

LuckyLloyd

I think CSF is making a lot of sense in this thread.

As it stands, Liverpool are likely to be involved in tighter, lower scoring affairs in which they are inarguably weaker. Sure, bench is improved and the likes of Lovren and Can may make us a bit more solid if they bed in successfully but the benefits of having a Suarez on the pitch are massively intangible. Sure he scored and made a boat load of goals, but attracted a lot of focus and attention. The hole created by his absence is more than a matter or mere production and numbers alone.

K-9

CSF wrote: »

So you don't think Liverpool are going to be significantly worse next season for the loss of Suarez?

Not at all, I'd take a scrap for 4th and out of the group stage as a decent season. I'm prepared for worse though. I'd be as aware as anybody that this is a rebuilding job.

I don't think it is as bad as subtracting Suarez and that's about it. I've no major problem with the way the money is getting spent, the squad is tiny in comparison to the other big competitors, partly due to smaller budget and buying at a lower level, serious money wasted early on with FSG and some poor signings since. Rodgers got everything possible out of a squad of 14/15 players last season. We need a squad of 17/18 players minimum for this season, and more importantly often forgotten, for the medium term future as well.

The major gripe is not getting a Sanchez, a Vidal or Reus. But being realistic, they are long shots given our financial constraints and FSG look at things long term, which, while not as exciting as City and Chelsea for marquee signings, is the right thing to do long term. There's a redevelopment of Anfield just started too.

CSF

K-9 wrote: »

Not at all, I'd take a scrap for 4th and out of the group stage as a decent season. I'm prepared for worse though. I'd be as aware as anybody that this is a rebuilding job.

I don't think it is as bad as subtracting Suarez and that's about it. I've no major problem with the way the money is getting spent, the squad is tiny in comparison to the other big competitors, partly due to smaller budget and buying at a lower level, serious money wasted early on with FSG and some poor signings since. Rodgers got everything possible out of a squad of 14/15 players last season. We need a squad of 17/18 players minimum for this season, and more importantly often forgotten, for the medium term future as well.

The major gripe is not getting a Sanchez, a Vidal or Reus. But being realistic, they are long shots given our financial constraints and FSG look at things long term, which, while not as exciting as City and Chelsea for marquee signings, is the right thing to do long term. There's a redevelopment of Anfield just started too.

The problem is that falling out of the top 4 this season (a very real prospect) would set everything back a fair distance. Which of Lovren, Markovic, Origi, Lambert and Lallana could Liverpool not have signed last summer if they had so desired? Which could they not have signed next summer even if they didn't make top 4?

This season Liverpool could sign the sort of player that would make the loss of Suarez much less felt, next season its a very realistic prospect that they may not (one of Arsenal, Liverpool and Man United are going to be in that position and I think Arsenal are the least likely of the 3 myself) be able to sign the same calibre of player. Why waste that opportunity now?

K-9

CSF wrote: »

The problem is that falling out of the top 4 this season (a very real prospect) would set everything back a fair distance. Which of Lovren, Markovic, Origi, Lambert and Lallana could Liverpool not have signed last summer if they had so desired? Which could they not have signed next summer even if they didn't make top 4?

This season Liverpool could sign the sort of player that would make the loss of Suarez much less felt, next season its a very realistic prospect that they may not (one of Arsenal, Liverpool and Man United are going to be in that position and I think Arsenal are the least likely of the 3 myself) be able to sign the same calibre of player. Why waste that opportunity now?

Sanchez seems to be the only player at that level that we missed out on, wages, location, manager, squad, regular top 4 club, stuff like that probably went against us. It shows how difficult it is for Liverpool to get that level of player, especially when the club isn't going to throw 150k a week at a player.

We haven't signed a Suarez or Torres type level player, players with big potential though risky at the time. That would be my worry, Markovic is highly rated but very young yet. I suppose we do have Sturridge already but he needs better back up/partner. Rodgers wants another attacker so I suppose we'll have to wait and see who he gets.

Bounty Hunter

At this moment I expect this to be the battle for fourth but obviously a lot could change

Rayne Wooney

United still pretty weak in defence and midfield with just 3 days to D day, you could hardly hand pick a better opening 7 or 8 games than we have, it's up to the players to capitalise on this though

Looking at the opening few fixtures, It looks like the players we have now will make up the teams against Swansea, Sunderland, Burnley, I think we should have enough to get 6 or 7 points in these games

Liverpool look like they won't be bringing anymore players into the starting 11, Southampton, City and Spurs in the opening 3, Southampton and Spurs both with new managers and Southampton with a host of new players it's tough to call how these will go, maybe 6 points

GavRedKing

Opening day results for the current EPL teams going back a decade.

Gav only posted that because of Chelsea's record! Go on, admit it!

Kirby

Bloody hell that's impressive looking. Wouldn't want Chelsea on the first weekend......

Very impressive tbf