Bells on cats

new old poster

and birds for millions

Teyla Emmagan

Phil_Lives wrote: »

Nope. cats came to england with the romans or phonecians about 2k years ago. as romans couldn't be bothered to visit Ireland they came to Ireland later. Birds fly so they brought themselves.
Cats are not native.

I didn't think they evolved here, but around 2k years is about what I had in mind alright. How long do you have to be around to be considered a native species anyway? Birds aren't native either then by what you are saying. Bit irrelevant then what our native predators are then so..

In any case, no bells.

DBB

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Why? Seriously. Surely we've had cats in Ireland for thousands of years?

Cats are not native to Ireland, and there has never been a cat native to this land (though there may have been hyenas about many thousands of years ago).
All cats in Ireland are domesticated pets, or feral but derived exclusively from domesticated pets. Although cats may have first been domesticated 10,000 years ago in the middle east or thereabouts, I'd say it's unlikely that they reached Irish shores until very recently, perhaps at some stage within the past thousand years? Probably less.
Natural behaviour it may be for a cat to kill birds, but when such a non-native predator is introduced particularly to an island nation, it often spells disaster for at least some of the native species. I'm afraid I for one cannot ever accept the justification used by some cat owners that it's okay for their cats to have free rein on our wildlife because "it's natural".
No, it's not.
Justify it some other way, just don't use this baseless excuse.

Capercaille

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Why? Seriously. Surely we've had cats in Ireland for thousands of years?

Non-native predator. One of the biggest causes of the loss of biodiversity on the planet is the introduction of non-native predators into an environment. If somebody has a pet cat, they should at least try and limit their killing of wildlife. Don't let them out at night/dawn/dusk. Put collars (quick release) with bells on them to limit their kills. Neuter their pets to prevent the formation of feral populations.

ArmaniJeanss

I know as a people we are wary of 'blow-ins' but if cats have been here 2000 years then I think we can accept them as being 'native'.

Capercaille

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I didn't think they evolved here, but around 2k years is about what I had in mind alright. How long do you have to be around to be considered a native species anyway? Birds aren't native either then by what you are saying. Bit irrelevant then what our native predators are then so..

In any case, no bells.

Cats were brought to this Country by people that makes them non-native. Feral cats would be par with feral American Mink. If a species colonised by itself or has always been present then it is deemed native ie Irish Hare, Robin, Blackbird etc.

Phil_Lives

No, that the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms.

DBB

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Birds aren't native either then by what you are saying. Bit irrelevant then what our native predators are then so.. .

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the term "native" in a biological sense.
Please, please do a bit of research before coming out with half-baked stuff... You're presumably trying to convince people that it's okay for people's cats to have unlimited free rein on our native birds and small mammals? That's not going to happen until you have your facts straight and can argue the point in a coherent and believable way!

DBB

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I know as a people we are wary of 'blow-ins' but if cats have been here 2000 years then I think we can accept them as being 'native'.

No, it simply doesn't work like that.
They're an introduced species, and always will be. They're no more native than dogs or pheasants are.

willmunny1990

Debating on whether cats are native or not is pointless, they are here to stay and it needs to be accepted.

People are over reacting about the damage cats are doing to bird populations when nothing concrete even exists to suggest they are doing damage.

Phil_Lives

willmunny1990 wrote: »

when nothing concrete even exists to suggest they are doing damage.

There are plenty of studies which show they are having a huge effect on native bird populations. It's a sunday night. I'm not going looking for them now.

willmunny1990

Phil_Lives wrote: »

There are plenty of studies which show they are having a huge effect on native bird populations. It's a sunday night. I'm not going looking for them now.

And I could probably find the same amount of studies suggesting otherwise, but its a Sunday night and I also wont go looking for them now.

Phil_Lives

willmunny1990 wrote: »

And I could probably find the same amount of studies suggesting otherwise, but its a Sunday night and I also wont go looking for them now.

You won't.

Pumpkinseeds

boomerang wrote: »

Because most people allow their cat out without supervision, so it can happen out of the owner's sight.

It could also happen to an indoor only cat if it happened while the owner was at work. We've bought all sorts of fancy expensive saftey release collars over the years. We even imported the snazzy velcro reflective ones from America, but Felix and Poppy are just notorious with collars. We'd never get one on Jazzy, his former feral wariness would see to that:D and since we don't use them anymore I wouldn't put one on Toby.

It's one of those contraversial arguments. I always believed in collars on cats and would have been among the first to criticise someone not putting a collar on their cat but having seen how easily some cats get themselves into difficulty with them I'd never put one on them again. At least they're microchipped which ultimately is the better option, for us.

Pumpkinseeds

Capercaille wrote: »

Birds like Corncrake are on the verge of extinction in Ireland. There are numerous species in danger of extinction in Ireland.

Can you provide concrete scientific research to show what percentage of those birds, if any are endangered as a result of cat predation? I'm genuinely interested.

This I just copied from Birdwatch Ireland
Where to See: Formerly an extremely common summer visitor, Corncrakes have suffered drastic population declines this century and are threatened with global extinction. Now only present in small numbers in the Shannon Callows, north Donegal and western parts of Mayo and Connaught. This decline is due in most part to intensive farming practices including early mowing to make silage and mechanised hay making practices which have destroyed nests and driven Corncrakes from old habitats. Now Corncrakes are confined to areas where difficult terrain precludes the use of machinery and where traditional late haymaking still takes place.

DBB

Phil_Lives wrote: »

There are plenty of studies which show they are having a huge effect on native bird populations. It's a sunday night. I'm not going looking for them now.

There was one source of research already posted on this thread...
http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/gardening/unwantedvisitors/cats/birddeclines.aspx

There is irrefutable evidence that predation by cats contributes to losses amongst native small mammals and birds. Are any species endangered by cats? I don't know... But does it really have to come to that before some cat owners accept that it's just not okay to let your pet kill our native species? The lack of responsibility for the Bigger Picture is pretty astonishing.

Yes, cats are here to stay. There's nobody arguing that. But instead of coming up with excuses for not controlling their cats' impact on local wildlife, or using excuses that are utterly unjustifiable, perhaps people who own cats with a predatory streak could burn up that energy thinking of ways to minimise that cat's impact. I'd admire owners of predatory cats more if they'd just be honest about it, rather than trying to excuse it with unjustifiable excuses!

pwurple

willmunny1990 wrote: »

People are over reacting about the damage cats are doing to bird populations when nothing concrete even exists to suggest they are doing damage.

Well, there's the dead birds in my own garden to suggest some damage surely?

Certain species would be easier targets for the cats. Ground feeders, like the thrush family who use 'anvils' to smash snails on etc would be a very soft target for cats, as they are at ground level.

It also goes back along the chain in ecological terms. So... The prey that the bird lives on can become more of a pest (snails, insects etc). And up the chain, the natural predator may be going without it's food when a species of bird drops. So our native birds of prey, etc.

Qualitymark

Main way to limit the amount of damage cats do is to keep them in at night and not let them out till work-going-out time. Most Irish people do the opposite, many saying "but it's natural".

OP, if you can, put in a motion-triggered watering spray near where the birds feed. It won't bother the birds but the cats won't like it. It won't stop them, but a Super Soaker used occasionally (plain water, no need for anything else) will give it an added discouragement factor.

http://www.havahart.com/store/animal-repellents/spray-away

Do cats harm birds? Yup.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9836471/Killer-cats-deadly-pets-murder-nearly-4-billion-birds-a-year.html

I love cats, but they're deadly to birds, especially juveniles. In fact, I'd go further than saying "keep them in at night" and say "keep them in at night, and all the time if you know birds are breeding nearby at the moment".

One of the little-known phases of bird life is when the chicks are fledged and flown, so they've left the nest. Most people think "OK, that's it, they're adult birds now". But in fact what happens is that they live in hedges or on the ground, hidden in nooks, as they grow stronger and learn to fly properly, while their parents supply them with food. This is *after* they've flown the nest. This is the time they're in greatest danger from cats.

Pumpkinseeds

DBB wrote: »

There was one source of research already posted on this thread...
http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/gardening/unwantedvisitors/cats/birddeclines.aspx

There is irrefutable evidence that predation by cats contributes to significant losses amongst native small mammals and birds.

Yes, cats are here to stay. There's nobody arguing that. But instead of coming up with excuses for not controlling their cats' impact on local wildlife, or using excuses that are utterly unjustifiable, perhaps people who own cats with a predatory streak could burn up that energy thinking of ways to minimise that cat's impact. I'd admire owners of predatory cats more if they'd just be honest about it, rather than trying to excuse it with unjustifiable excuses!

I don't try to excuse my cats behaviour. Cats are who they are. We have no shortage of birds in our neighbourhood and given that we feed the birds all year round and get through a lot of bird food in very harsh weather, we give back more than our cats ever took. They've also had 4 mice in the space of a week, mice and rats are not the type of wildlife most people would want to see in their gardens or homes.

If no cats had access to the outdoors the most common form would be people putting down poisoned food, which could prove even more devestating to birds and other wildlife, not to mention the possibility of birds dropping poisoned food into a garden where there are pets.

nc19

An air pistol or a crossbow is what you need.

horrible creatures cats.....dont get me started on their owners


Mod note:
nc19, Nope, just don't go there.
Open discussion is fine, advocating cruelty (air pistols, crossbows etc), dissing cats and their owners will not be happening on this thread.
Do not post on this thread again.
Thanks,
DBB

inocybe

DBB wrote: »

There was one source of research already posted on this thread...
http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/gardening/unwantedvisitors/cats/birddeclines.aspx

There is irrefutable evidence that predation by cats contributes to losses amongst native small mammals and birds. Are any species endangered by cats? I don't know... But does it really have to come to that before some cat owners accept that it's just not okay to let your pet kill our native species? The lack of responsibility for the Bigger Picture is pretty astonishing.

Yes, cats are here to stay. There's nobody arguing that. But instead of coming up with excuses for not controlling their cats' impact on local wildlife, or using excuses that are utterly unjustifiable, perhaps people who own cats with a predatory streak could burn up that energy thinking of ways to minimise that cat's impact. I'd admire owners of predatory cats more if they'd just be honest about it, rather than trying to excuse it with unjustifiable excuses!

Read the article quoted

House of Blaze

What about the poor snails the bird was after?

Shouldn't something be done to protect them?

willmunny1990

Qualitymark wrote: »

Main way to limit the amount of damage cats do is to keep them in at night and not let them out till work-going-out time. Most Irish people do the opposite, many saying "but it's natural".

OP, if you can, put in a motion-triggered watering spray near where the birds feed. It won't bother the birds but the cats won't like it. It won't stop them, but a Super Soaker used occasionally (plain water, no need for anything else) will give it an added discouragement factor.

http://www.havahart.com/store/animal-repellents/spray-away

Do cats harm birds? Yup.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9836471/Killer-cats-deadly-pets-murder-nearly-4-billion-birds-a-year.html

I love cats, but they're deadly to birds, especially juveniles. In fact, I'd go further than saying "keep them in at night" and say "keep them in at night, and all the time if you know birds are breeding nearby at the moment".

One of the little-known phases of bird life is when the chicks are fledged and flown, so they've left the nest. Most people think "OK, that's it, they're adult birds now". But in fact what happens is that they live in hedges or on the ground, hidden in nooks, as they grow stronger and learn to fly properly, while their parents supply them with food. This is *after* they've flown the nest. This is the time they're in greatest danger from cats.

Sher the article DBB linked says there is no scientific evidence, it also states that there is evidence to suggest that cats are killing the more sickly birds that are going to die anyway and that species abundant in gardens are actually increasing.

DBB

inocybe wrote: »

Read the article quoted

Yes, sorry, I was posting from my phone so not padding things out much!
I meant that it illustrated the sheer numbers of small animals and birds that have been shown to be killed by cats each year in the UK... How anyone can read those numbers and think there's no harm being done by cats is beyond me.
Even if those numbers are small in comparison to the losses caused by other man-made processes, does it really excuse owners of predatory cats from not taking any responsibility, or mean that it's okay to excuse local losses because "it's natural" (when it's not!)?
To be honest, this response that "the farmers/developers etc cause more losses" reminds me of the fella who's caught by the guards for speeding, who says "why aren't you out catching murderers and rapists rather than bothering with me?"
Just because it's "less bad", doesn't mean it's not bad!

Pumpkinseeds

DBB wrote: »

Yes, sorry, I was posting from my phone so not padding things out much!
I meant that it illustrated the sheer numbers of small animals and birds that have been shown to be killed by cats each year in the UK... How anyone can read those numbers and think there's no harm being done by cats is beyond me.
Even if those numbers are small in comparison to the losses caused by other man-made processes, does it really excuse owners of predatory cats from not taking any responsibility, or mean that it's okay to excuse local losses because "it's natural" (when it's not!)?
To be honest, this response that "the farmers/developers etc cause more losses" reminds me of the fella who's caught by the guards for speeding, who says "why aren't you out catching murderers and rapists rather than bothering with me?"
Just because it's "less bad", doesn't mean it's not bad!

But where do the figures for the 55 million mammals allegedly killed by cats come from? Where are the bodies, so to speak? Did someone actually go out and physically collect all those dead mammals and hard evidence that they were all killed by cats or is it just statistics that someone has pulled out of their rear ends?

Phil_Lives

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

But where do the figures for the 55 million mammals allegedly killed by cats come from? Where are the bodies, so to speak? Did someone actually go out and physically collect all those dead mammals and hard evidence that they were all killed by cats or is it just statistics that someone has pulled out of their rear ends?

You are not even convincing yourself that Cats aren't pure born killing machines.

pwurple

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

But where do the figures for the 55 million mammals allegedly killed by cats come from? Where are the bodies, so to speak? Did someone actually go out and physically collect all those dead mammals and hard evidence that they were all killed by cats or is it just statistics that someone has pulled out of their rear ends?

Wouldn't be too difficult to come up with it. Track some cat activites for a time period, take an average kill rate and multiply by cat ownership.

Thought your previous comment was awful, but are you actually that bloodthirsty about wildlife that you now want a pile of bodies to drool over?

Capercaille

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Can you provide concrete scientific research to show what percentage of those birds, if any are endangered as a result of cat predation? I'm genuinely interested.

This I just copied from Birdwatch Ireland
Where to See: Formerly an extremely common summer visitor, Corncrakes have suffered drastic population declines this century and are threatened with global extinction. Now only present in small numbers in the Shannon Callows, north Donegal and western parts of Mayo and Connaught. This decline is due in most part to intensive farming practices including early mowing to make silage and mechanised hay making practices which have destroyed nests and driven Corncrakes from old habitats. Now Corncrakes are confined to areas where difficult terrain precludes the use of machinery and where traditional late haymaking still takes place.

I'm involved in corncrake conservation in mayo. (Check my post history)I manage my small farm for corncrake and have had two males calling on the farm this year. That represent 1% of the national population. Ground nesting birds like corncrake are very vulnerable to small predators like cats. On Tory island and inisbofin cats have been responsible for large declines in corncrake numbers in recent years. Feral cats were removed and numbers of corncrake have recovered in the last two years. Domestic cats were all spayed and given collars with bells. Corncrake conservation is multifaceted: habitat management and predator control.

Pumpkinseeds

Capercaille wrote: »

I'm involved in corncrake conservation in mayo. (Check my post history)I manage my small farm for corncrake and have had two males calling on the farm this year. That represent 1% of the national population. Ground nesting birds like corncrake are very vulnerable to small predators like cats. On Tory island and inisbofin cats have responsible for large decline in corncrake numbers in recent years. Feral cats were removed and numbers of corncrake have recovered in the last two years. Domestic cats were all spayed and given collars with bells. Corncrake conservation is multifaceted: habitat management and predator control.

Ferals will kill for food, they have to in order to survive. Many farms love to have feral cats to control the rodent population.

Pumpkinseeds

pwurple wrote: »

Wouldn't be too difficult to come up with it. Track some cat activites for a time period, take an average kill rate and multiply by cat ownership.

Thought your previous comment was awful, but are you actually that bloodthirsty about wildlife that you now want a pile of bodies to drool over?

That's a Hell of a leap. We have 4 cats, only 1 of them hunts and he mostly takes mice. So assuming that all cats kill is a mistake and a major miscalculation. Foxes also kill small mammals for food, as would other wildlife, including badgers. If there were no predators for smaller mammals it would be bad for the mammal population in general.