Bells on cats

Capercaille

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Ferals will kill for food, they have to in order to survive. Many farms love to have feral cats to control the rodent population.

Are you saying that feral cats killing and eating Corncrake(a bird on the verge of extinction in Ireland) is OK????

pwurple

What do you think the word 'average' means pumpkinseeds?


I've had a look at the water squirters, and the sound-emitting device linked on the rspb page http://shopping.rspb.org.uk/catwatch-cat-deterrent.html.

Either of those will do my small patch of city garden, but hopefully some cat owners reading the thread will think about the native creatures too.

Pumpkinseeds

Capercaille wrote: »

Are you saying that feral cats killing and eating Corncrake(a bird on the verge of extinction in Ireland) is OK????

Not at all, I appreciate how devestating a situation that would be. I would see that as a situation where, in an ideal world, and it isn't an ideal world, that you and a Cat Rescue would work together to find an appropriate and safe place to relocate the cats. That would facilitate the well being of both the birds and the cats.

Realistically what often happens in the cat versus bird situation is that many bird lovers will actively hurt/kill cats and justify it by saying it's for the welfare of the birds.

Pumpkinseeds

pwurple wrote: »

What do you think the word 'average' means pumpkinseeds?


I've had a look at the water squirters, and the sound-emitting device linked on the rspb page http://shopping.rspb.org.uk/catwatch-cat-deterrent.html.

Either of those will do my small patch of city garden, but hopefully some cat owners reading the thread will think about the native creatures too.

Whose average and based on what physical evidence? I was quoted statistics based on every cat in a country being included as bird/mammal killers, which they aren't.

Capercaille

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Not at all, I appreciate how devestating a situation that would be. I would see that as a situation where, in an ideal world, and it isn't an ideal world, that you and a Cat Rescue would work together to find an appropriate and safe place to relocate the cats. That would facilitate the well being of both the birds and the cats.

Realistically what often happens in the cat versus bird situation is that many bird lovers will actively hurt/kill cats and justify it by saying it's for the welfare of the birds.

You blasé attitude to cats killing wildlife is common with many people unfortunately. You comments like "there's loads of birds in Ireland" are disappointing.

pwurple

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Whose average and based on what physical evidence? I was quoted statistics based on every cat in a country being included as bird/mammal killers, which they aren't.

No, you either misread, or misunderstood.... I said an average kill rate would be taken for a group of cats. That means if some cats don't kill, and some do, the average of both is taken.

Pumpkinseeds

Capercaille wrote: »

You blasé attitude to cats killing wildlife is common with many people unfortunately. You comments like "there's loads of birds in Ireland" are disappointing.

I said there's lots of birds in my neighbourhood. Which is probably a lot to do with the fact that we've been feeding them very well every day for the past 7 years. I don't have a blasé attitude to birds, what I do have is a dislike for bird versus cat threads. It brings out the crazies who believe that killing cats is a justifiable thing to do.

DBB

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

But where do the figures for the 55 million mammals allegedly killed by cats come from? Where are the bodies, so to speak? Did someone actually go out and physically collect all those dead mammals and hard evidence that they were all killed by cats or is it just statistics that someone has pulled out of their rear ends?

Here's the paper that the figures were taken from, based on a questionnaire survey, which is an absolutely standard way of collecting large amounts of information from a broad range of owners.
It puts some interesting figures together, based on a questionnaire study of almost a thousand cats:
http://www.mammal.org.uk/sites/default/files/Domestic%20Cat%20Predation%20on%20Wildlife.pdf

More reports from the research papers which investigated the impact of cats on wildlife from other countries.
In the first paper below, there are potential problems with the upwards extrapolations/estimates they're landing at in this meta-analysis (I think this is a problem with meta-analyses!), especially because the range between their lowest and highest estimates is bloody huge... if I was being cynical I'd go with their lowest estimates:
The US: http://www.accord3.com/docs/Loss%20et%20al%202013%20Impact%20of%20free%20ranging%20domestic%20cats%20on%20wildlife%20in%20U.pdf

A small US study involving radio-tracking of young birds:
http://nwaaudubon.tripod.com/webonmediacontents/Cats%20and%20Catbirds_study.pdf

And Canada:
http://www.ace-eco.org/vol8/iss2/art3/

Pumpkinseeds

pwurple wrote: »

No, you either misread, or misunderstood.... I said an average kill rate would be taken for a group of cats. That means if some cats don't kill, and some do, the average of both is taken.

I'm very wary of statistics in cat predation of birds/mammals. For years British bird and wildlife organisations pushed the line that cats were responsible for the decline in birds/mammals, that has turned out not to be the case and they've been forced to admit that the decline is largely due to intensive farming and destruction of habitat.

Old habits die hard and the people providing the statistics are very often biased against cats. I don't like cats killing birds or small animals. I am very happy when they kill mice and rats though.

pwurple

I don't think artifically feeding birds is a great idea either. Why are you doing this?

What pile of crazy cat killers are you referring to?

DBB

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

It brings out the crazies who believe that killing cats is a justifiable thing to do.

In fairness, there's only been one so far , and any such posts will be swiftly dealt with because you're absolutely right, advocating killing cats is just... so wrong and won't be tolerated here.
On the flip side of the same coin though, we have people trying to excuse cats killing birds by trying to tell us they're native, or should be considered so, and hence their effect on the bird and small-mammal populations is "natural"!
Crazy talk on both sides imo

Pumpkinseeds

DBB wrote: »

Here's the paper that the figures were taken from, based on a questionnaire survey, which is an absolutely standard way of collecting large amounts of information from a broad range of owners.
It puts some interesting figures together, based on a questionnaire study of almost a thousand cats:
http://www.mammal.org.uk/sites/default/files/Domestic%20Cat%20Predation%20on%20Wildlife.pdf

More reports from the research papers which investigated the impact of cats on wildlife from other countries.
In the first paper below, there are potential problems with the upwards extrapolations/estimates they're landing at in this meta-analysis (I think this is a problem with meta-analyses!), especially because the range between their lowest and highest estimates is bloody huge... if I was being cynical I'd go with their lowest estimates:
The US: http://www.accord3.com/docs/Loss%20et%20al%202013%20Impact%20of%20free%20ranging%20domestic%20cats%20on%20wildlife%20in%20U.pdf

A small US study involving radio-tracking of young birds:
http://nwaaudubon.tripod.com/webonmediacontents/Cats%20and%20Catbirds_study.pdf

And Canada:
http://www.ace-eco.org/vol8/iss2/art3/

I've only given it a quick scan, but it makes interesting reading. Although, again, it comes down to averages. There's no way my cat gets an average of 11 kills a year. Those statistics are also fairly dated. Things have slightly improved for feral cat colonies, through the sheer dedication of people doing tnr work and feeding/managing colonies.

DBB

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I've only given it a quick scan, but it makes interesting reading. Although, again, it comes down to averages. There's no way my cat gets an average of 11 kills a year.

Indeed it does, but remember that it's a questionnaire of hundreds of owners... the experiences of one, two, or ten owners are not representative, and so the more cats they account for, the more significant the figures become.

Those statistics are also fairly dated. Things have slightly improved for feral cat colonies, through the sheer dedication of people doing tnr work and feeding/managing colonies.

Welllll, they're only twenty-ish years old in the UK study. The American and Canadian studies are very recent indeed.

Capercaille

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Not at all, I appreciate how devestating a situation that would be. I would see that as a situation where, in an ideal world, and it isn't an ideal world, that you and a Cat Rescue would work together to find an appropriate and safe place to relocate the cats. That would facilitate the well being of both the birds and the cats.

Realistically what often happens in the cat versus bird situation is that many bird lovers will actively hurt/kill cats and justify it by saying it's for the welfare of the birds.

On Tory great efforts were made not to harm any pets. All the owners sent in photos of their pets. Cats were trapped in humane cage traps. All pet cats were released with collar/bells. The islanders got their cats neutered free of charge. Feral cats were humanely euthanized. If money was no object they could have been sent to rescue centers.

Meirleach

Quick release collar and bell on my cats. Doesn't seem to stop them catching mice and rats, and they still manage to catch the occasional bird but thankfully not too many. They are also kept in at night.

Capercaille

Meirleach wrote: »

Quick release collar and bell on my cats. Doesn't seem to stop them catching mice and rats, and they still manage to catch the occasional bird but thankfully not too many. They are also kept in at night.

In cats that are great stealthy hunters research has shown that avian kills will be down on average at least 30%. Combined with keeping your cat in will further reduce kills.

sparkle_23

I have 2 cats in Canada that are indoor only as we live in an apartment. My 2 cats in Ireland are allowed out, they have collars and bells. They are not allowed out at night. They catch mice and the odd bird. Most of the birds they catch are ones that have gotten inside and fly into the window and end up stunned. I have taken birds off them and kept the cats away until the bird flies away. My Dad does this too as I'm not in Ireland any more.

Mo60

More birds and other wildlife have and are still being killed by the use of pestisides and changes in farming practices. SAC were set up for this very reason.

The use of bells, in my experience, are of little use as cats are very clever.