Starting trouble AGAINNNNN

Richard tea

Firstly a big thank you to lookbehindyou who took time out today to come and bump start my bike after she died. Theres nothing this man cant and wont do for a fellow biker.


So here is the story. I left work this afternoon and 10 mins into the journey I stopped to take out my earphones. When I went to start the bike the starter relay would just click ( engine would not turn over ). When Mick turned up he bump started it first time without any hassle. From doing some googling I checked a few things which are as follows

Battery is showing 12.80v
Ignition on is reading 12.30v
When I hit the starter the reading jumps to 12.40v

I recently fitted that weatherproof connector from the alternator to the reg/rec. Is it possible I didnt do a good job at this which is causing my problems? I have the battery connected up to a charger at the moment so it will be tomorrow before I put the battery back in. If she starts ill do the readings again at 2, 3, 4, 5000 rmp.

Bikerguy

Richard tea wrote: »

Firstly a big thank you to lookbehindyou who took time out today to come and bump start my bike after she died. Theres nothing this man cant and wont do for a fellow biker.


So here is the story. I left work this afternoon and 10 mins into the journey I stopped to take out my earphones. When I went to start the bike the starter relay would just click ( engine would not turn over ). When Mick turned up he bump started it first time without any hassle. From doing some googling I checked a few things which are as follows

Battery is showing 12.80v
Ignition on is reading 12.30v
When I hit the starter the reading jumps to 12.40v

I recently fitted that weatherproof connector from the alternator to the reg/rec. Is it possible I didnt do a good job at this which is causing my problems? I have the battery connected up to a charger at the moment so it will be tomorrow before I put the battery back in. If she starts ill do the readings again at 2, 3, 4, 5000 rmp.

the reading should go up when you start the bike and rev up - but i guess you know that... i believe somewhere around 13,8 mark... in order to recharge the battery...


one question.. how long time have ya got the battery.. if it cant hold charge you gotta get new1.. so get the readings tomorrow and you can move from there..

Richard tea

Its the same battery in it now as was when I bought it just over 2 years ago. I had got reg/rec problem before but I changed to a mofet type which sorted it. Prehaps the battery took a beating around that time and now needs a changing. Ill check readings tomorrow.

Bikerguy

Richard tea wrote: »

Its the same battery in it now as was when I bought it just over 2 years ago. I had got reg/rec problem before but I changed to a mofet type which sorted it. Prehaps the battery took a beating around that time and now needs a changing. Ill check readings tomorrow.

yeh.. my 2c are going for the battery issue/not holding charge

Mr Sheen!

Fair play to lookbehindyou for helping you out.

I would guess that the battery is not at it's best since the problem with the reg/rec so that's where I would start .

I would also monitor the new battery for the first few weeks to check it is charging ok.

Richard tea

leppla wrote: »

Fair play to lookbehindyou for helping you out.

I would guess that the battery is not at it's best since the problem with the reg/rec so that's where I would start .

I would also monitor the new battery for the first few weeks to check it is charging ok.

I was blessed. Typical, I had breakdown cover with C&N for 2 years and the bike never broke down like that. Im with Adelaide ( with no breakdown cover) about a month or so & the bike breaks down:rolleyes: Just from doing a bit of reading I could also be looking at a malfunctioning kickstand safety switch or clutch/starter interlock switch but then again the fact that it was bump started possibly rules this out. Im blessed I dont need the bike for the next 2 weeks so I have time to sort it.

Wonda-Boy

Lookbehindyou is a legend, would never ever see another lad stuck.

Joe Id start with the battery as I would say its weak from when the reg/rec was acting up the 1st time around.

blu3r0ri0n

Richard tea

If it turns out to be the battery is this yoke alright http://www.halfords.ie/motoring/bulbs-wiper-blades-batteries/batteries/yuasa-ytx9-bs-powersport-motorcycle-battery

CJhaughey

Yuasa are very good OEM suppliers.
I have exactly the same size battery and I fitted a Motobatt last time, great battery.
If you get a dry one with an acid pack, when you fill it make sure to give it a good tapping with a screwdriver handle or similar before charging it.
If you don't and get air bubbles between the plates and then charge it a lot of battery life and capacity can be lost.
I only discovered this recently and sometimes wondered why batteries didn't last long. The US army have this as a known issue for their radio batteries and have special vibrating battery tables to stop this from happening.
Of course AGM batteries like Motobatts and Odyssey won't have this problem.

Richard tea

CJhaughey wrote: »

Yuasa are very good OEM suppliers.
I have exactly the same size battery and I fitted a Motobatt last time, great battery.
If you get a dry one with an acid pack, when you fill it make sure to give it a good tapping with a screwdriver handle or similar before charging it.
If you don't and get air bubbles between the plates and then charge it a lot of battery life and capacity can be lost.
I only discovered this recently and sometimes wondered why batteries didn't last long. The US army have this as a known issue for their radio batteries and have special vibrating battery tables to stop this from happening.
Of course AGM batteries like Motobatts and Odyssey won't have this problem.

Motobatt MBTX9U is this the size batt for my bike?

CJhaughey

Richard tea wrote: »

Motobatt MBTX9U is this the size batt for my bike?

Yep

Richard tea

Ok no joy:mad:

I took the battery off charge half hour ago. Took a reading of 13v. Connected back up and cleaned and sanded battery terminals. Starter relay still clicks when I try start the bike. From what I read if the relay clicks once it most likely is the starter relay causing the problem but if it clicks multiple times its ok cause its doing its job. Mine clicks twice with every start attempt so im going to assume my started relay is ok for now.

I have also read about making sure the ground connection is ok and tightened. What ground connection are they on about????

Putting a screwdriver across the starter relay can jump or bypass the relay but it does not do anything in my case, not even a spark???

Lastly, I topped up the oil in the bike the other day. If in the slight chance I overfilled the oil could this be causing the problem??? Is there a safety switch that will stop the bike from starting if the oil is overfilled???

Just in case anyone is not aware the bike is a 94 cb400 so there are no fancy gizmos or electronics on the bike.

ifah

I had this exact issue a couple of months ago on a Vstrom 650. It was the brushes in the starter motor that needed replacing - had to drain the oil, take out motor, refit brushes after cleaning out all the old carbon and off she flew.

Brushes I needed to get were OEM from suzuki - at first glance it's something like this you need : http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/CB400F-SUPER-SPORT-FOUR/part_3414/
you might be able to get them local. But if you take out the starter motor you should be able to suss it out (don't forget about the oil).

CJhaughey

Richard tea wrote: »

Ok no joy:mad:


I have also read about making sure the ground connection is ok and tightened. What ground connection are they on about????

Battery Neg to Frame/engine is the ground connection.

Richard tea

ifah wrote: »

I had this exact issue a couple of months ago on a Vstrom 650. It was the brushes in the starter motor that needed replacing - had to drain the oil, take out motor, refit brushes after cleaning out all the old carbon and off she flew.

Brushes I needed to get were OEM from suzuki - at first glance it's something like this you need : http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/CB400F-SUPER-SPORT-FOUR/part_3414/
you might be able to get them local. But if you take out the starter motor you should be able to suss it out (don't forget about the oil).

How did you notice the problem? did it deteriorate over time or was it like mine when the bike just wouldnt start all of a sudden. I was riding the bike for 10 minutes & pulled over to take out earphones. Tried starting the bike after 2 minutes and she would start.

Richard tea

CJhaughey wrote: »

Battery Neg to Frame/engine is the ground connection.

Im sure thats electronic basics to most CJ but im Where is this ground connection?

Sir Arthur Daley

Could you do a very elimation process and swap batteries with another bike to diagnosis if its a battey problem or starter problem. A multimeter is a great tool to a certain degree but you need to take a more pratical approach now.

Richard tea

Bingo. I gave the starter motor a tap whilst pressing the starter button and she fired up:) So can we agree that the starter motor is the problem?

ifah

Richard tea wrote: »

How did you notice the problem? did it deteriorate over time or was it like mine when the bike just wouldnt start all of a sudden. I was riding the bike for 10 minutes & pulled over to take out earphones. Tried starting the bike after 2 minutes and she would start.

Pretty much - started one morning, wouldn't start in the evening. gave the started motor a bang with hammer, started ok, wouldn't start next time. The brushes were down to about 1/2 mm - there wasn't enough to make contact !

I went through the new battery, cleaning starter switch etc - no use and the starter relay always clicked - just couldn't turn the motor

ifah

Richard tea wrote: »

Bingo. I gave the starter motor a tap whilst pressing the starter button and she fired up:) So can we agree that the starter motor is the problem?

bingo !

Richard tea

ifah wrote: »

bingo !

Ill search the net for a how to guide but just to be clear. I will need to drain the oil before removing the starter motor??

ifah

i'm not familiar with the CB400 engine but on the vstrom the starter motor has a gear that is used to turn over the engine during the starting sequence. This gear is at the bottom front of the engine and is part of the engine itself. Removing the starter motor leaves a gaping hole into the engine.

but looking at this video - it looks like the motors are the same : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yCW0G93FxU

it's getting at the motor that might be difficult.

Richard tea

ifah wrote: »

i'm not familiar with the CB400 engine but on the vstrom the starter motor has a gear that is used to turn over the engine during the starting sequence. This gear is at the bottom front of the engine and is part of the engine itself. Removing the starter motor leaves a gaping hole into the engine.

but looking at this video - it looks like the motors are the same : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yCW0G93FxU

it's getting at the motor that might be difficult.

Yeah I watched that video earlier. Like you mentioned, getting a replacement is the problem. Ill ring a few honda places today and if no joy ill order one over the net tonight.

CJhaughey

Richard tea wrote: »

Yeah I watched that video earlier. Like you mentioned, getting a replacement is the problem. Ill ring a few honda places today and if no joy ill order one over the net tonight.

You probably don't need the entire starter, just the brushbox.
they can be bought pretty cheaply compared to the starter motor and postage will be a lot less.

Skill Magill

+1 CJhaughy

Richard tea

CJhaughey wrote: »

You probably don't need the entire starter, just the brushbox.
they can be bought pretty cheaply compared to the starter motor and postage will be a lot less.

IM onto lee honda at the moment. They are looking into a fix. Ive delt with them in the past and found them very helpful.

Cant seem to find any ''brushbox'' or starter rebuild kit on ebay.ie/uk
Does anyone know where I might try in Dublin or midlands area?

goodlad

Richard tea wrote: »

IM onto lee honda at the moment. They are looking into a fix. Ive delt with them in the past and found them very helpful.

Cant seem to find any ''brushbox'' or starter rebuild kit on ebay.ie/uk
Does anyone know where I might try in Dublin or midlands area?

Ring some breakers and see if they have the part you need?

Richard tea

goodlad wrote: »

Ring some breakers and see if they have the part you need?

I dont think its the type of part that is second hand user friendly. Its most likely the brushes i need replacing and it would be best to buy new. Think they go for about 20 quid so not too bad.

Boskowski

Volts will only show you so much...

If you lose the battery over night something's drawing from the battery. So what you do is this.

When the bike is parked up disconnect the minus (ground) and put a multimeter in between and measure the current (amps). There are plenty of video links on battery draw that will show you how to use a multimeter like that. They don't cost the world either and everyone should have one and know how to use it.

Basically stick the black cable into COM, the red one into 5A or 10A or 20A depending on the multimeter you have and then put the meter on the appropriate DC current range (5, 10 or 20). Then connect the two multimeter cables between the battery minus and the battery cable you just disconnected. If it reads a negative value connect the cables the other way around.

Anyway, it should be only a few milliamps depending on what bike it is and what may be running for example alarm, immobiliser etc. If its say a couple amps then you can do the maths.

Say for example if you measure there is a 3 amps draw (when there should be next to nothing, she's parked up idle after all) then you know it would suck a fully charged 36Ah battery dry over night (12 hrs * 3 amps = 36Ah). Then you can start pulling fuses and you will find out what circuit has the draw.

Then you go from there.

Richard tea

Boskowski wrote: »

Volts will only show you so much...

If you lose the battery over night something's drawing from the battery. So what you do is this.

When the bike is parked up disconnect the minus (ground) and put a multimeter in between and measure the current (amps). There are plenty of video links on battery draw that will show you how to use a multimeter like that. They don't cost the world either and everyone should have one and know how to use it.

Anyway, it should be only a few milliamps depending on what bike it is and what may be running for example alarm, immobiliser etc. If its say a couple amps then you can do the maths.

Say for example if you measure there is a 3 amps draw (when there should be next to nothing, she's parked up idle after all) then you know it would suck a fully charged 36Ah battery dry over night (12 hrs * 3 amps = 36Ah). Then you can start pulling fuses and you will find out what circuit has the draw.

Then you go from there.

Good info for future reference. Ill check the battery again in the morning for peace of mind.