Rough Ride on RTÉ 1 tonight *mod note post #153*

Darkglasses

There's been enough reminders on this forum, it's becoming ridiculous. You may not speculate that somebody has doped, unless it has been proven in the public domain. Cards to follow.

pelevin

drogdub wrote: »

You really missed the point of a lot of what Kimmage is saying. Most dopers are victims. They reach a point where they have to make the decision in order to survive and some lose they're lives.

Funny, in that Froome interview, Kimmage spends a good bit towards the end trying to bully Froome into saying how much he hates all the cyclists who doped.

pelevin

fishfoodie wrote: »

Well that might relate to the fact that Cookson sat on the UCI board with Pat, & sat idly by while Pat used UCI legal to try to 1st, destroy PK's career, & then not satisfied with that, to sue him personally, rather than the paper which published the articles that Pat took exception to !

In the same circumstances, I don't think my comments on the character of Mr Cookson would be anything like as calm & considered as "the backbone of a jellyfish."

If Cookson had the backbone of a jellyfish he wouldn't have gone up against the McQuaid/Verbruggen axis & had his character & integrity assaulted by McQuaid from the word go. As anyone would realise.

Koobcam

A bit disappointed by this documentary. I think Paul Kimmage has a really interesting story to tell but it was kind of all over the place the way this documentary told it.

diomed

lennymc wrote: »

The biggest question the documentary raised for me is why was kimmage letting the air out of his wheels before putting them in the camper?

He would return the camper, then get a flight with the bike as luggage. If you leave the tyres pumped they will explode.

Sean Yates, It's all about the bike, Corgi Books 2014, page 133
"I flew back to Paris, where The Charger was waiting at Charles de Gaulle airport, forgetting to let the air out of my tyres before putting the bike on the plane. Needless to say, when I picked the bike up from the outsize luggage counter, both tyres had exploded in the unpressurized cargo hold."

I said

Enjoyed it but looking at it some things will never change (doping)froome hasn't exactly helped his image this year

Lusk_Doyle

CJC999 wrote: »

I'd like to see Roache get a grilling over his response, he came across very badly in the interview.

On another note, I don't particularly like PK anymore, he's a pig headed/stubborn impatient man that it seems will never be happy.

He will be happy. Not when he is proven to have been right all along but when others stand up, speak out and do something about that which they have known to have been wrong for all this time. This has killed people FFS.

Lusk_Doyle

vermin99 wrote: »

Sean kelly has to stay quite as hes employed by eurosport /sky , did kelly dope? I hope not

His ban says he did.

Lusk_Doyle

diomed wrote: »

He would return the camper, then get a flight with the bike as luggage. If you leave the tyres pumped they will explode.

Sean Yates, It's all about the bike, Corgi Books 2014, page 133
"I flew back to Paris, where The Charger was waiting at Charles de Gaulle airport, forgetting to let the air out of my tyres before putting the bike on the plane. Needless to say, when I picked the bike up from the outsize luggage counter, both tyres had exploded in the unpressurized cargo hold."

Not true. I have put mine through fully inflated a number of times with no adverse effects.

Alf Veedersane

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Not true. I have put mine through fully inflated a number of times with no adverse effects.

Not always true.

brencork

I said wrote: »

Enjoyed it but looking at it some things will never change (doping)froome hasn't exactly helped his image this year

Totes agree.

Cookson's son works for Team Sky. Froome must be the only person on the planet who didn't know steroids were considered performance enhancing. The interview with Kimmage a while back raised an awful lot of uncomfortable questions.

thirteen.

brencork wrote: »

Totes agree.

Cookson's son works for Team Sky. Froome must be the only person on the planet who didn't know steroids were considered performance enhancing. The interview with Kimmage a while back raised an awful lot of uncomfortable questions.

That interview was not helped by Froomes girlfriend, or should I say handler. I want to believe he's clean but I am sceptical.

nak

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Not true. I have put mine through fully inflated a number of times with no adverse effects.

Me too, flew with the bike yesterday and they were fine.

Met Brian Cookson and Tracy Gaudry from the UCI, the latter has a lot of good plans for women's cycling. Embarrasing introduction to Cookson though - one of the girls in my group shoved a camera in his face and asked him to take a picture of us. He was very nice about it.

brencork

thirteen. wrote: »

That interview was not helped by Froomes girlfriend, or should I say handler. I want to believe he's clean but I am sceptical.

His numbers are ridiculous and his power output is phenomenal. The lack of any body fat and the lean-ness of his frame just add to the questions. True though, his girlfriend was a bit mad tbf.

Better be careful we don't go too far off topic here :O

morana

I seen it on saturday and enjoyed it but I thought it was better the second time around.

whether you think he is bitter, a bully or anything else you have to accept that he has done more for the sport by confronting this than most if not all the others. you could include walsh in there with him but I think he started it. People trying to paint this picture of the sport having no positives in 13/14 and sure isnt it great. In cycling we deal in the currency of decades not weeks!

Its funny how only one mentioned the wife. I thought she was great and would have liked to see more her and her quips.

"@PaulKimmage his passion gave my dead husband Johannes Draaijer a voice." from draaijers wife

buffalo

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/rough-rider-behind-the-scenes-with-paul-kimmage-30467802.html

The series of video blogs the wife was filming with the iPhone.

kingdomlad

I missed the documentary last night. Cant find it on the RTE player today. Anybody got a link?

mruser2014

kingdomlad wrote: »

I missed the documentary last night. Cant find it on the RTE player today. Anybody got a link?

They wont be putting it on the RTE Player.

petethedrummer

morana wrote: »

whether you think he is bitter, a bully or anything else you have to accept that he has done more for the sport by confronting this than most if not all the others.

I think people tend to confuse personality and character.

blobbie

mruser2014 wrote: »

They wont be putting it on the RTE Player.

http://www.wildfirefilms.net/mysitecaddy/site3/roughrider.htm

petethedrummer

mruser2014 wrote: »

They wont be putting it on the RTE Player.

People are literally starving of RTE player material.

Alf Veedersane

morana wrote: »

"@PaulKimmage his passion gave my dead husband Johannes Draaijer a voice." from draaijers wife

Saw that alright. Poignant.

The film showed his 'cause' is bigger than the Armstrong years, that it's not about whatever has happened to Kimmage...it's bigger than that.

It's about the riders who have paid the price, sometimes the ultimate price, for doping not being tackled when it should have been. For the blind eye he thinks UCI have turned to it or, at least, for their inaction.

It's about being at a stage where riders like Floyd Landis would rather be the cheat than the cheated.

In a sport he loves.

gordongekko

Weepsie wrote: »

I thought they'd have had it for a limited time on RTE player as Channel 4 do on 4OD for stuff.

kingdomlad wrote: »

I missed the documentary last night. Cant find it on the RTE player today. Anybody got a link?

Ah folks just read the post.

delboyfagan

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

You'd be surprised the amount of people in A4 that dope, let alone professionals!

MajesticDonkey - I would like you to name the A4 dopers please.

Green&Red

I actually warmed a bit to Kimmage, especially the scenes with his wife. He comes across as a complete arsehole on the radio but with his dad and wife he seems more normal.

I actually thought the scene in the grandstand was the most powerful. Roche down having the craic with some of the other finishers and Kimmage looking on, alone. Very sad what he has had to give up for his cause

brencork

I don't think it's RTE fault tbf, I understand the makers (and indeed Paul) wanted a cinematic release. I understand Matt Hampson had initially planned to travel over for the (postponed) premier at the beginning of July.

Planet X

Kevin put on a few pounds....

bazermc

delboyfagan wrote: »

MajesticDonkey - I would like you to name the A4 dopers please.

Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie

Fr D Maugire

mruser2014 wrote: »

One simple answer here. The 80's were the decade of blood doping not EPO. Blood transfusions were the norm in cycling. Then EPO came in the last 80's. We know the rest.

Its amazing how people forget about blood transfusions.

The 80s were not the decade of blood transfusions. The US team at the 84 Olympics were associated with transfusions and I think Moser for his hour record but outside of that, I have never heard a single mention of blood doping in Pro Cycling during the 80s.

Kimmage was a Pro for 4 seasons and has never mentioned blood doping once during that time. There have been plenty other riders from that era who have admitted to doping but again I have never heard them mention blood transfusions.

If you are going to claim transfusions were the norm, I think you would need some actual evidence to back that claim. By all accounts hormones like testosterone, cortisone, synatachen etc were the norm with amphetamines used in races with no drug testing as they were traceable in testing. Mixtures like Pot Belge were also widely used.

Again if transfusions were the norm, there would not have been such a jump in speeds with the arrival of EPO in the 90s.

cormacjones

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

The 80s were not the decade of blood transfusions. The US team at the 84 Olympics were associated with transfusions and I think Moser for his hour record but outside of that, I have never heard a single mention of blood doping in Pro Cycling during the 80s.

Kimmage was a Pro for 4 seasons and has never mentioned blood doping once during that time. There have been plenty other riders from that era who have admitted to doping but again I have never heard them mention blood transfusions.

If you are going to claim transfusions were the norm, I think you would need some actual evidence to back that claim. By all accounts hormones like testosterone, cortisone, synatachen etc were the norm with amphetamines used in races with no drug testing as they were traceable in testing. Mixtures like Pot Belge were also widely used.

Again if transfusions were the norm, there would not have been such a jump in speeds with the arrival of EPO in the 90s.

Weren't PDM blood doping in the 80's?

edit link: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-seven-out-of-eight-pdm-riders-doped-at-1988-tour-de-france

happytramp

This is interesting too
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/a-history-on-blood-transfusions-in-cycling-part-2

ROK ON

cormacjones wrote: »

Weren't PDM blood doping in the 80's?

edit link: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-seven-out-of-eight-pdm-riders-doped-at-1988-tour-de-france

I was a huge PDM fan - but I think that they were the first of the teams were there was a programme. I recall hearing as a teen that the PDM bus was known colloquially as the pharmacy. They were one of the first teams to have a bus.

The thing that I don't get is the supposed naivety of Kimmage in the early days. Rough Ride when I read it first came across as a uniquely insightful book as to the reality of a journeyman professional athlete. The few parts on doping seemed to show huge surprise that doping existed in cycling. This struck me as odd. As a kid in a smalltown Ireland with no cycling background or pedigree my mates and I knew about the history of doping in cycling. We discussed Kelly's missed tests, the legacy of Anquetil and Simpson. Yet Paul Kimmage from a family and club steeped in the lore of cycling seemed shocked by that.

I don't get that and never have. I don't buy it. In my view he knew what he was getting into as a pro. Thankfully because of the efforts made by people such as him new pros may not be confronted by those choices. That is good. However much in the same way that the global financial crisis 'made' Nouriel Roubin or the property crash 'made' Morgan Kelly et al, doping has made Kimmage for good and bad.

MajesticDonkey

delboyfagan wrote: »

MajesticDonkey - I would like you to name the A4 dopers please.

Joe Soap and John Doe.

nerraw1111

Did he mention Dan Martin's win?

Seems a curious omission not to say anything about the first Irish stage win since Roche 21 years earlier on the very tour he's covering?

morana

ROK ON wrote: »

I was a huge PDM fan - but I think that they were the first of the teams were there was a programme. I recall hearing as a teen that the PDM bus was known colloquially as the pharmacy. They were one of the first teams to have a bus.

The thing that I don't get is the supposed naivety of Kimmage in the early days. Rough Ride when I read it first came across as a uniquely insightful book as to the reality of a journeyman professional athlete. The few parts on doping seemed to show huge surprise that doping existed in cycling. This struck me as odd. As a kid in a smalltown Ireland with no cycling background or pedigree my mates and I knew about the history of doping in cycling. We discussed Kelly's missed tests, the legacy of Anquetil and Simpson. Yet Paul Kimmage from a family and club steeped in the lore of cycling seemed shocked by that.

I don't get that and never have. I don't buy it. In my view he knew what he was getting into as a pro. Thankfully because of the efforts made by people such as him new pros may not be confronted by those choices. That is good. However much in the same way that the global financial crisis 'made' Nouriel Roubin or the property crash 'made' Morgan Kelly et al, doping has made Kimmage for good and bad.

When i read the book and articles of the teams throwing gear overboard at the giro I along with others said he was destroying the sport but he wasnt, he was just telling like it was and possibly still is.

The funny thing is we see a lot of the tinfoil hat brigade shouting about this fella this substance etc. but they usually turn out to be right. Wasnt PK asking Roche on twitter to ask Kreuziger about his doping. I guess people dont like his blunt approach but I guess he doesnt care.

Anyway for me he is a hero.

ROK ON

Morana -'I never stated that he wasn't right. My point is that Rough Ride reads like an innocent young kid finding out that Santa ain't real. He must (or should have) known about this given his families history in cycling. I knew about it from talking to other lads in CBS Sexton Street in Limerick - and none of us had any background in the sport.

Despite that I think that books like Rough Ride (and Domestique by Charly Wegelius) should be required reading for any aspiring professional athlete.

Junior

morana wrote: »

Wasnt PK asking Roche on twitter to ask Kreuziger about his doping. I guess people dont like his blunt approach but I guess he doesnt care.

Why not ask Kreuziger, why not ask Riis, why not track down who Kreuziger was working with - it was a cheap sh*tty shot by Kimmage and that's what always always lets him down, he can never resist those shots.

The most telling bit for me was the very very start when he said that "people say oh Paul you doped, you are the same as Armstrong, but it's more nuanced than that" - I didn't even think the word nuanced was in his dictionary, he has abused other journalists, he has accused riders because of what he feels, yet when they turn down his interview requests he becomes belligerent.

He accuses Froome of being a flying elephant, and turns around and is best buddy with him and Michelle Cound, these are the things that let him down.

I admire his journalistic work, I feel some empathy for his situation, but from my dealings with him and how he's treated good people he's an arsehole.

morana

ROK ON wrote: »

Morana -'I never stated that he wasn't right. My point is that Rough Ride reads like an innocent young kid finding out that Santa ain't real. He must (or should have) known about this given his families history in cycling. I knew about it from talking to other lads in CBS Sexton Street in Limerick - and none of us had any background in the sport.

Despite that I think that books like Rough Ride (and Domestique by Charly Wegelius) should be required reading for any aspiring professional athlete.

ah i know that rok. I had included an anecdote about somebody else who knew about doping and encountered it in their cycling life but deleted the post. I left your post in by mistake.

morana

Junior wrote: »

Why not ask Kreuziger, why not ask Riis, why not track down who Kreuziger was working with - it was a cheap sh*tty shot by Kimmage and that's what always always lets him down, he can never resist those shots.

The most telling bit for me was the very very start when he said that "people say oh Paul you doped, you are the same as Armstrong, but it's more nuanced than that" - I didn't even think the word nuanced was in his dictionary, he has abused other journalists, he has accused riders because of what he feels, yet when they turn down his interview requests he becomes belligerent.

He accuses Froome of being a flying elephant, and turns around and is best buddy with him and Michelle Cound, these are the things that let him down.

I admire his journalistic work, I feel some empathy for his situation, but from my dealings with him and how he's treated good people he's an arsehole.

He did send it directly to kreuziger. I didnt take it he was best mates with them anyway he is Paul kimmage not st Paul of balscadden....and I amnt here to defend him

wav1

delboyfagan wrote: »

MajesticDonkey - I would like you to name the A4 dopers please.

Their probably A3 now.Probably on the dear gels now as well.Jesus I've heard it all now.A4s doping.Biological passports for all A4s will be by motion to AGM this year.Best I've heard in a long time

derealbadger

wav1 wrote: »

Their probably A3 now.Probably on the dear gels now as well.Jesus I've heard it all now.A4s doping.Biological passports for all A4s will be by motion to AGM this year.Best I've heard in a long time

Now i know why i got blown out the back door on Sunday

Lusk_Doyle

wav1 wrote: »

Their probably A3 now.Probably on the dear gels now as well.Jesus I've heard it all now.A4s doping.Biological passports for all A4s will be by motion to AGM this year.Best I've heard in a long time

Ah fcuk. I'd better get my gear in ass and get promoted quick smart so!

eoinor

I've been waiting for this to come out for ages! I'm not in Ireland so I couldn't watch it on RTE. Luckily it has shown up on a torrent site.
Easy to find on Google.

Stonehall9

wav1 wrote: »

Their probably A3 now.Probably on the dear gels now as well.Jesus I've heard it all now.A4s doping.Biological passports for all A4s will be by motion to AGM this year.Best I've heard in a long time

Completely innocent question here as I'm fairly new to cycling, done lots if sportives but no racing or anything, but does this exist right down at club level?? As I said innocent question so no need to rip the piss out of me :-)

Peterx

Stonehall9 wrote: »

Completely innocent question here as I'm fairly new to cycling, done lots if sportives but no racing or anything, but does this exist right down at club level?? As I said innocent question so no need to rip the piss out of me :-)

I think the idea is you manage to pee into the bottle yourself.

Ripping the actual piss out of you, via syringe, is going to the next stage in the fight against drugs. An apt anti doping solution considering the method of injection

lennymc

Stonehall9 wrote: »

Completely innocent question here as I'm fairly new to cycling, done lots if sportives but no racing or anything, but does this exist right down at club level?? As I said innocent question so no need to rip the piss out of me :-)

most probably not.

RobFowl

Stonehall9 wrote: »

Completely innocent question here as I'm fairly new to cycling, done lots if sportives but no racing or anything, but does this exist right down at club level?? As I said innocent question so no need to rip the piss out of me :-)

Bio passport only accessible to riders from Pro-conti or Protour teams (if you have to ask you're not one )

wav1

Stonehall9 wrote: »

Completely innocent question here as I'm fairly new to cycling, done lots if sportives but no racing or anything, but does this exist right down at club level?? As I said innocent question so no need to rip the piss out of me :-)

No mate.Just taking the piss myself.Dont think a
the carrot of an upgrade to A3 would warrant substance abuse

K-9

RobFowl wrote: »

Best line ever "Paul was born perfect in an imperfect world"

Slightly tongue in cheek from Christy Kimmage (The Da)

Stuck out for me as summing it all up perfectly! Cycling seems to bring the worst out of him and it's hard to blame him. Years of writing about doping, then the Armstrong years (cancer was a badly chosen word at the time but with the benefit of hindsight, pretty apt) and in the middle of filming, the UCI sue him. That would piss anybody off. The Times let him go but they are losing a fortune even now and still cutting back.

What struck home with me was the questioning of Froome. Loads of skeptical questions and rightly so, that is what cycling owes Kimmage and Walsh, people should have a healthy does of skepticism. I'd wonder if a lot of these journalists where anywhere near as cynical before? Probably not, just as much part of the establishment as the teams and the UCI. Seemed a knee jerk over reaction after the horse had bolted.

He's a fascinating character, warts and all. I think I remember reading an interview about the O'Driscoll bio and he said he doesn't speak much to Walsh anymore. Both seem very pig headed and driven, so hardly a surprise!

highbury1913

morana wrote: »

He did send it directly to kreuziger. I didnt take it he was best mates with them anyway he is Paul kimmage not st Paul of balscadden....and I amnt here to defend him

I know you said you're not here to defend him so not directed at yourself, but I just like to express my opinion on this situation.

Yes, he did send it to Kreuziger after his Amstel Gold Race win and rightly so considering his past links to Ferrari. Where I disagree with him was bringing Nico Roche into it who congratulated him on his win and did so in the context of being a team-mate of his. Not a word was said to Paulinho, Kirchen or the many other Saxo riders that did similar on twitter at the time. Paul said he wanted Nico to write a column on this but the link that Kimmage highlighted was many years previously when Roche wasn't a team-mate of Kreuziger. Therefore Kreuziger has to answer for it, not Roche.

Kimmage always says Roche needs to do more with his column regarding doping but Paul forgets he wrote two columns for the Sunday Tribune for the '88 Tour but refused to do so in the third week of the race when Delgado was positive. He told Walsh he would have got in big trouble if he addressed it. Remember Delgado wasn't a team-mate of his but he still refused, yet he wanted Nico to do so in much difficult circumstances as a team-mate.

Dan Martin has a column with the Irish Times and Deignan with The Star in the past and Stickybottle for the recent Giro. I never hear him say anything about them and their columns in similar fashion to what he has done with Roche. He criticises Roche for signing with Saxo and Riis. That's grand and I agree with it, but if you're going to do it, be consistent across the board. Recently he said on twitter that Deignan is a bright lad and not once has he criticised him for his past association with Armstrong and Bruyneel. In-fact he called Bruyneel the Alex Ferguson and Mourinho of cycling when he first joined Radioshack.

I find his singling out of Nico Roche over others very strange.

I thought the documentary was very good and enjoyed it. Kimmage means well and loves the sport(I contributed to the fund) but he's not flawless by any means in his approach to dealing with doping in the sport.