Need advice - my dog has to be muzzled!!

Mince Pie

Hi everyone, I really need advice here. I live in an apartment complex and theres a lot of building work going on and while thats happening there is a security guard posted from 6pm overnight.
There is one guy in particular who obviously doesn't like dogs. Now I take my dogs out for widdles and poos ( I take poo bags with me and pick them up so no problems there)
They have been going off leash since the gate was put in and they can't escape which is quite a while now and no issues. I tend to take them out and throw the ball for the little one as well in the evening when there are no builders around. I'm the only one living here with a car and no one is allowed access after 6pm so no issues about cars coming in with dogs rambling around the place.
They are supervised all the time.
Problem was last night at 2am I took them out and they were barking at the security guard which is to be expected.
He has now reported my lurcher and I have been informed that she has to be kept on a leash and muzzle whenever she is outside!
I'm so upset and angry right now, without wanting to sound petty this little jobsworth of a security guard has caused other issues for other tenants and their kids and one has moved out now. (reporting kids having water fights in the baking heat and their bikes being outside)
Is there anything I can do? Or are the legal rights on the other side? Surely I don't have to muzzle her for barking at a stranger?

Nody

Mince Pie wrote: »

Is there anything I can do? Or are the legal rights on the other side? Surely I don't have to muzzle her for barking at a stranger?

Depends on what's in your lease but the chances are pretty high that yes you will have to muzzle her while she's on the property and not in your apartment. Their building; their rules basically.

Mince Pie

Nody wrote: »

Depends on what's in your lease but the chances are pretty high that yes you will have to muzzle her while she's on the property and not in your apartment. Their building; their rules basically.

I was seriously hoping that that wouldn't be the case but suspected it would be. I'm so bloody upset right now that some security little jobsworth has come in and affected mine and my dogs quality of life.
I'd move in an instant but not that easy to get somewhere with dogs. :mad:

andreac

Who told you your dog must be muzzled?

Mince Pie

andreac wrote: »

Who told you your dog must be muzzled?

I had the lady from the management company call around about an hour ago to inform me and said I will be receiving a letter advising me. She's really nice the lady and always likes to let us know of whats going on rather than just getting a letter in the post.
She loves the dogs herself and has a real soft spot for the lurcher and has dogs herself.

muddypaws

What does your lease say about animals? If you are allowed them, maybe ask for a meeting with the management company? A muzzle won't stop a dog barking.

If there are no rules in place about dogs being leashed and muzzled, are they allowed to change the rules without consultation with tenants, or at least a notice period? In public places, for a dog to be ordered to be leashed and muzzled, it has to go to court first.

As hard as it is, I would try to be as reasonable as possible, don't get angry, ask to see the security guard's report on the incident. Explain that the guard spooked her, she didn't attack him at all, she was startled in the dark and barked, at no time did she pose a risk to anybody.

muddypaws

Mince Pie wrote: »

I had the lady from the management company call around about an hour ago to inform me and said I will be receiving a letter advising me. She's really nice the lady and always likes to let us know of whats going on rather than just getting a letter in the post.
She loves the dogs herself and has a real soft spot for the lurcher and has dogs herself.

Did your dog bark at her when she came to the door?

Mince Pie

muddypaws wrote: »

What does your lease say about animals? If you are allowed them, maybe ask for a meeting with the management company? A muzzle won't stop a dog barking.

If there are no rules in place about dogs being leashed and muzzled, are they allowed to change the rules without consultation with tenants, or at least a notice period? In public places, for a dog to be ordered to be leashed and muzzled, it has to go to court first.

As hard as it is, I would try to be as reasonable as possible, don't get angry, ask to see the security guard's report on the incident. Explain that the guard spooked her, she didn't attack him at all, she was startled in the dark and barked, at no time did she pose a risk to anybody.

I'm allowed the dogs, when I moved back and went into the rental company it was my first stipulation, that I need a property where I can have a dog. The other two tenants (there are only 4 occupied apartments at the moment as they were evacuated in December) and they have dogs as well.
I haven't read the lease but I suspect there is nothing in it regarding dogs being muzzled.
My dogs are supervised at all times outside whereas my neighbour has a JRT who is left outside to ramble when they are out.

Mince Pie

muddypaws wrote: »

Did your dog bark at her when she came to the door?

The dogs always bark when someone is at the door but once its opened they are fine and they will always go up to her for rubs. No one else has issues, even the builders pet them and give them bits of meat, to the point that the lurcher sits outside the door of the apartment they stay in waiting for treats.

punisher5112

He the security guard is looking out for his safety.

How can you say jobsworth he may have been attacked before and is scared senseless of dogs.

I never let my dogs off the lead and have problems when others let theirs off as they do at time come at my 2 granted this is out in public and do understand where you are coming from.

Try maybe have a chat with him without the dogs some night you never know you might see he is ok.

muddypaws

I would ask for another meeting, and explain that you are a paying tenant, he has not been attacked in any way. If you can, maybe get some videos of the dogs interacting with the builders etc, to show how friendly they are. It is difficult, but, if the other apartments are empty, they may not want to lose you as a tenant.

Mince Pie

punisher5112 wrote: »

He the security guard is looking out for his safety.

How can you say jobsworth he may have been attacked before and is scared senseless of dogs.

I never let my dogs off the lead and have problems when others let theirs off as they do at time come at my 2 granted this is out in public and do understand where you are coming from.

Try maybe have a chat with him without the dogs some night you never know you might see he is ok.

The security guard has had many dealings with her up to now, when she's having a ramble around and she has never gone for him, ever. She has gone over to him in the past for a sniff while she's been walking by. He has been around them for months now.
They barked last night cos it was dark and the middle of the night. They bark but have never gone for anyone, period.

andreac

To be honest, i dont think they can enforce the muzzling. Its not law and if its not in the agreement then i dont think you have anything to worry about.

Mince Pie

The only mentions of pets in the lease is "The Tenant agrees not to keep pets on the property unless previously agreed with the Landlord" which of course it has. That's all that is mentioned in the lease.

Tranceypoo

andreac wrote: »

To be honest, i dont think they can enforce the muzzling. Its not law and if its not in the agreement then i dont think you have anything to worry about.

I'm no expert but this is what I would think as well.

However, in the interests of goodwill, have another chat with the lady from the management company to express your concern and how you think it's a bit much and if possible have a chat with the security man, be super duper nice and maybe bake him a cake (is that over the top?!), sorry the dog barked at you but she was just startled etc etc, how about I keep her on a lead at night time but not a muzzle - that type of thing, I really think a muzzle is over the top ridiculous!

Mince Pie

Tranceypoo wrote: »

I'm no expert but this is what I would think as well.

However, in the interests of goodwill, have another chat with the lady from the management company to express your concern and how you think it's a bit much and if possible have a chat with the security man, be super duper nice and maybe bake him a cake (is that over the top?!), sorry the dog barked at you but she was just startled etc etc, how about I keep her on a lead at night time but not a muzzle - that type of thing, I really think a muzzle is over the top ridiculous!

Will definitely have another chat with the management company cos she knows the lurcher and actually caught me off guard this morning as I hadn't had my coffee, I was letting the dogs out for a widdle first. Spoke to her outside and didn't have to time to take in what she was saying and argue the case.
To be honest, I know the security guy and even if I did bake a cake he would refuse it. I have made cookies etc in the past and offered them to people and he always refuses. He's not pleasant and I have tried speaking to him in the past over other issues (me being reasonable and on behalf of others to keep the peace) and he just kicks off everytime.

muddypaws

Thats probably the issue then, if you've intervened on behalf of others, he probably sees you as a trouble maker, and this might be his way of getting back at you - incredibly childish but unfortunately things happen.

Mince Pie

muddypaws wrote: »

Thats probably the issue then, if you've intervened on behalf of others, he probably sees you as a trouble maker, and this might be his way of getting back at you - incredibly childish but unfortunately things happen.

I didn't want to get all petty but I do think that that might be the case. There was another incident where he got into a wee bit of bother that somewhat involved me but wasn't my fault and think he may still be smarting from that as well.

Basically the issue where I intervened - neighbours kids were having a waterfight one evening in the lovely sunshine. It was really sweet to see them all having such fun. He kicked off and said that they were using the outside tap which was the developers water. That they stop and turn it off or he will turn the water off at the mains. I basically went over to have a chat and said it was actually nice to see the kids playing outside rather than on video games inside. He kicked off and said he would get into trouble and wasn't having any of it.
That is the type of person I am dealing with.

Tranceypoo

He sounds like a right jobsworth then so don't waste your time baking a cake (or bake a cake and eat it yourself), miserable git. In which case try and reach some sort of compromise via the management lady? Again, I think the muzzle is just stupid and if they're merely catering to his whims where will it all end Ted? Think of the children!!

Mince Pie

I've calmed down now and will be putting in a formal complaint against the surly security. Frankly I've put up with his attitude for long enough and I shouldn't feel like that where I live.
I've spoken to the security chap who is on tonight to garner his thoughts on the dogs, he said he does feel uncomfortable with the barking but he's a big lad and definitely didn't report it.
He gave me the details of reporting the surly jobsworth. My feeling is, is if it was a problem the first port of call would have been to ask me to keep the dogs on the lead in the night and if I was unreasonable then to escalate it further. Not go for the jugular.

Whispered

I agree that you shouldn't be made to feel like that where you live, however if you complain and there is any type of investigation and another s.g agrees that your dogs are causing a problem it could get worse for you, in having your right to keep them revoked, or new rules to say they must be kept on lead etc.

You are right, the first port of call might have been to ask you to keep them on lead, but at the same time, how might that be interpreted? There is likely protocol there, where they are told to contact the management company rather than approach residents if there is an issue.

I think the fact another s.g has told you he is uncomfortable with your dogs behaviour speaks volumes to be honest and while I still think it's wrong to insist on them being muzzled, there is obviously more at play here than one guy with a vendetta. Would a decent compromise be to contact the management company and commit to undertaking training to stop the dogs barking at people?

Mince Pie

The dogs are fine with the security guards during the day when they are pottering around and most of them give a fuss. Its only at night time that they will bark cos they will come round the corner without warning while doing patrols.
Its hardly crime of the century that dogs bark at people who startle them at night time and its not something I will be looking to train out of them. I have been burgled before and the security won't be here forever. I have had men coming out of the field beside my door at night after they have been in there drinking. The dogs bark at them. They have never gone for anyone.

I speak to the security all the time so it could have been brought up at any time over the past few months, the report said they have barked 4 times at them. So its not like its a nightly occurance.

The surly security does have issues, there have been other events that I let slide for a quiet life but will be addressing now.
With regards the contacting the management company, it was the security who told me not to bother and to report it straight to his company.
I have lived here for over a year with no incident or accident with the dogs. They don't bark excessively, are generally well behaved and surpervised at all times.

Whispered

I think putting in a complaint when you know there might be someone there to back him up might cause problems for you.

On a personal level I would be mortified if I thought my dogs behaviour was making people feel uncomfortable in their workplace. It's not the crime of the century, I don't think I suggested it was so hardly the need for the defensive tone? It's also not unreasonable to want to be able to go about your work without being made to feel intimidated.

If it was the one guy I'd agree with you, but now that another has said that your dogs make him feel uncomfortable I can't help but feel a compromise would be fairest on everybody.

Their barking at the security guard is not "to be expected" as you said. Dogs must be under control, barking at people is not under control. Unless of course the dog stops on command, in which case I'd agree with you that they're being totally unreasonable. If the barking doesn't stop on command, it is totally unfair of you to expect them to just put up with your offlead dogs barking at them while they work, it doens't matter if they've never attacked them, it could still make them feel nervous. You know they're harmless but they're your dogs. Not to mention your neighbours who, last night at least, had to listen to them barking at 2am.

EDIT: sorry, on the security part, I agree, it's nice to feel safe when walking at night, to this end one of mine will bark on command. I find it really handy and at this stage, when he wants to bark at something he looks to me first to see if he's allowed. Maybe something like that would help you feel more secure while solving the barking dog problem? It might keep everyone happy

Mince Pie

Whispered wrote: »

I think putting in a complaint when you know there might be someone there to back him up might cause problems for you.

On a personal level I would be mortified if I thought my dogs behaviour was making people feel uncomfortable in their workplace. It's not the crime of the century, I don't think I suggested it was so hardly the need for the defensive tone? It's also not unreasonable to want to be able to go about your work without being made to feel intimidated.

If it was the one guy I'd agree with you, but now that another has said that your dogs make him feel uncomfortable I can't help but feel a compromise would be fairest on everybody.

Their barking at the security guard is not "to be expected" as you said. Dogs must be under control, barking at people is not under control. Unless of course the dog stops on command, in which case I'd agree with you that they're being totally unreasonable. If the barking doesn't stop on command, it is totally unfair of you to expect them to just put up with your offlead dogs barking at them while they work, it doens't matter if they've never attacked them, it could still make them feel nervous. You know they're harmless but they're your dogs. Not to mention your neighbours who, last night at least, had to listen to them barking at 2am.

EDIT: sorry, on the security part, I agree, it's nice to feel safe when walking at night, to this end one of mine will bark on command. I find it really handy and at this stage, when he wants to bark at something he looks to me first to see if he's allowed. Maybe something like that would help you feel more secure while solving the barking dog problem? It might keep everyone happy

First of all the defensive tone is not directed at you, I'm still fairly upset by it. I also have no problem keeping the dogs on a lead if that makes everyone happy.
The dogs bark when they are startled but once I call them they stop and then go about their business.
Its hard to get all the minutiae of details in, as much as I have tried to be include all the facts. I am trying to be balanced and look at the big picture.
Thing is, there are 4 security guards, they all know the dogs as they see them during the day and they have given them a fuss. So its not like they are strange dogs, they are familiar. Its just unfortunate that they have come round the corner while they are doing their widdles and have startled them. They bark, I call them and tell them to calm down and they stop. None of the incidences have been in any way prolonged hence why they haven't stuck in my mind.
Last nights incident was only cos the security was shouting which incidently would have probably disturbed the neighbours more as he does like to rant.
At the end of the day, I know the chap who reported the incident, I have the measure of the man and mostly try and avoid him due to his demeanor. He is grumpy and even my sister won't visit as she can't be bothered with having to deal with him opening the gate.
He has caused other issues so his reporting this minor occurance is not an isolated event. My neighbours have had problems with him reporting minor things about their children, they were told that the children were not allowed to be outside either and other silly little things. She has since moved to her sisters as she couldn't put up with the constraints and constant restrictions being put on her on what her children could and couldn't do.

Mince Pie

Just to add, we have lived her peacefully and without complaint for over a year now until said security has arrived. I keep myself to myself but have found myself drawn into petty dramas where there is none.

tk123

OP why are you bringing your dogs out at 2:00am in the first place?!!

I have MAJOR MAJOR issues with my dogs barking at anyone outside - in the house at a knock on the door fine but outside for me is embarrassing and unacceptable. If your dogs are making people uncomfortable it's very much your problem to solve. If you're going to bring them at night time where you know they'll get startled and bark then at least put them on lead so you are actually/physically in control - surely they can go to the loo on lead?

Mince Pie

tk123 wrote: »

OP why are you bringing your dogs out at 2:00am in the first place?!!

I have MAJOR MAJOR issues with my dogs barking at anyone outside - in the house at a knock on the door fine but outside for me is embarrassing and unacceptable. If your dogs are making people uncomfortable it's very much your problem to solve. If you're going to bring them at night time where you know they'll get startled and bark then at least put them on lead so you are actually/physically in control - surely they can go to the loo on lead?

Right, firstly, I frequent this forum a lot so don't expect to be attacked. I don't have to give you an explanation as to my lifestyle but the dogs go out for a widdle before I go to bed. If I choose to stay up till 2am what does that matter? 99.9% of the time they are quiet, do their thing and then come in and go to bed.

Secondly, I mostly do take them out on a lead at night but haven't been taking the lurcher on one.
I haven't mentioned this before but she was badly attacked by another dog last week and has been stitched up. She is in recovery and has been for the last week, hence why they have only been on the grounds supervised cos I can't take her out for walks. She hasn't had a collar on for the last week as she had a near miss to her jugular on her neck which currently has stitches in it so allowing it to heal. The security are also aware of that as they have been asking me how she is and have seen the multitude of wounds she had. Another reason why I was upset as they know the circumstances I am under at the moment.

tk123

Nobody is attacking you - as a regular you know people are allowed to post their opinions and they mightn't always be the same as yours. And as a regular you should also know that you should report posts you have a problem with instead of accusing people of attacking/ganging up on you..

Mince Pie

tk123 wrote: »

Nobody is attacking you - as a regular you know people are allowed to post their opinions and they mightn't always be the same as yours. And as a regular you should also know that you should report posts you have a problem with instead of accusing people of attacking/ganging up on you..

I don't feel the need to report the post, just merely pointing out that having a go about me taking my dogs out at 2am is hardly relevant nor anyones business.
I asked for advice about a muzzle, not to answer questions about my lifestyle.
So I'm happy to chat once it stays on topic, I don't expect everyone to agree. I'm here often enough to realise that how we look after our pets is often emotive.

Whispered

Sorry your dog was attacked. How did it happen? One of mine was attacked on his lead once by an offlead dog and now he's very reactive to others when he's on his lead. We're working on it, but it's not easy!

So these four incidents that have two of the security guards (that you know of) feeling uncomfortable, happened in the last week? If so they really should be more understanding.

I can understand why you are upset, I really can. But in fairness you seem to just want them to put up with things the way they are when you've been told your dogs offlead and barking at them makes them feel uncomfortable (I keep using that word as it is what the second s.g said to you). I love dogs, I really do, but I wouldn't be happy to put up with someones dogs making me feel unsafe. It's not like the men have a choice, they're working, they have to be there.

You seem stuck between a rock and a hard place, I think everyone involved could make changes for the better really.

tk123

Put a head collar on the dog for a while - they'll think it's a muzzle and back off and it'll solve your problems of not being able to use a collar/harness... You can get Trixie muzzle bands on amazon that look the part but can be left very loose..