Best place to report concerns about a creche

John Mason

I work in the area of childcare inspection visits, so would have an good knowledge of what to look for in a creche.

I was recently searching for myself, and was shocked at some of the creches we seen. I cannot understand how anyone could send their there.

one large chain had the space and ratio for 9 babies but there were 11 cots squeezed into the room - go figure!!

it was like a baby factory!! another stank, and was filthy, after reading their HSE report i couldnt understand why it was left open. 22 pages of non-compliance issues and this place was recommend to us but a lot of different people.

Out of the 5 crèches we went to only 2 asked what our babys name was!!!

deisemum

That is truely shocking Anon, I think you should go to the media with it as the HSE only pay lip service otherwise.

uli84

Anon, that's unreal! may I get the name of the creche too, please? thanks

Chattastrophe!

John Mason wrote: »

I work in the area of childcare inspection visits, so would have an good knowledge of what to look for in a creche.

I was recently searching for myself, and was shocked at some of the creches we seen. I cannot understand how anyone could send their there.

one large chain had the space and ratio for 9 babies but there were 11 cots squeezed into the room - go figure!!

it was like a baby factory!! another stank, and was filthy, after reading their HSE report i couldnt understand why it was left open. 22 pages of non-compliance issues and this place was recommend to us but a lot of different people.

Out of the 5 crèches we went to only 2 asked what our babys name was!!!

Wow. That's the kind of place I'd be terrified of. It's the preconception I had of creches - basically, baby factories, where babies are all crammed in together and made to eat, sleep etc all at the same time.

I think they have four baby nap rooms in my kid's creche, each with 3-4 cots, but I get the impression that they rarely actually have to have two babies in the same room at the same time. Because they're all on different schedules, also they adjust the lighting and music in the rooms depending on what each baby prefers (I asked that he naps in a well-lit quiet room, as its what he's used to, other babies need a dark room, maybe a CD.)

It sounds weird, but one thing I love about the creche is all the noise there! There are always babies laughing and playing and messing - and crying too, but I like that! I was afraid of him ending up in some creche where the babies are treated like little robots. It's normal for babies to cry sometimes - and anytime I see them crying, they're already being attended to - my fear was the sort of place where babies aren't bothered crying, because they know it won't help. And from what I hear, such places do exist!

Anyone working there that I've dealt with, they know my son and his likes and dislikes inside out - impressive, as it's a really big creche, something like 100 kids in total (including montessori and after school care.) I'm always impressed that they know my name, too, as I very rarely do the drop-offs and collections.

Vel

Just something I am curious about for those of you who aren't comfortable with the idea of creches but use childminders are childminders inspected by any bodies? Just like in a creche, how do you really know what they are doing with your child all day, what kind of standards they have and if there are any issues that come to light how can they be dealt with? I have 3 kids and we have been using our creche for the past four years, since our oldest was one. The yougest two attend 2 days a week, we can drop in whenever we please and we find it fantastic nad have never had any issues worth noting. I sometimes feel people trumpet this idea that somehow a childminder is a better/safer option than a creche and that all sorts of things go on at creches when the parents aren't there, but the same could equally be said for childminders in my opinion.

Vel

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

It sounds weird, but one thing I love about the creche is all the noise there! There are always babies laughing and playing and messing - and crying too, but I like that! I was afraid of him ending up in some creche where the babies are treated like little robots. It's normal for babies to cry sometimes - and anytime I see them crying, they're already being attended to - my fear was the sort of place where babies aren't bothered crying, because they know it won't help. And from what I hear, such places do exist!

I get this! Our kids are in quite a small creche but it has a real little buzz about it, a great atmosphere and it's an environment I like my kids being in.

Discussion has taken place on the bad creches, like the example you mention about but I also wonder about childminders! My worst fear would be my little ones being stuck in front of a tv all day while the childminder does other things around their house, or given rubbish food that I wouldn't know about. I can attend my kids creche at lunchtime and see exactly what they are eating. It would be less likely I could do the same at a childminders.

I'm guess I'm just playing devil's advocate a bit here as I often hear creche bashing by people whose kids attend childminders. There is no right or wrong choice and what will work for one family may not work for another but I wish people weren't so quick to pass judgement on other people's childcare choices so readily.

Anon345

uli84 wrote: »

Anon, that's unreal! may I get the name of the creche too, please? thanks

PM sent

Millem

We have a minder, I was looking for a home from home set up. He will go on school drop offs and pick ups, pretty much the same days as here. With his naps added in he will only have a couple of hours for play as I work short days. I think you just go with your gut, myself and our minder are on the same wave length and would have very similar views, backgrounds and would want the same for our children. Her own two boys are very well behaved etc. My plan is childminder for the first two years then he will go to a montesorri that is attached to a school all going well.

Sligo1

Vel wrote: »

Just something I am curious about for those of you who aren't comfortable with the idea of creches but use childminders are childminders inspected by any bodies? Just like in a creche, how do you really know what they are doing with your child all day, what kind of standards they have and if there are any issues that come to light how can they be dealt with? I have 3 kids and we have been using our creche for the past four years, since our oldest was one. The yougest two attend 2 days a week, we can drop in whenever we please and we find it fantastic nad have never had any issues worth noting. I sometimes feel people trumpet this idea that somehow a childminder is a better/safer option than a creche and that all sorts of things go on at creches when the parents aren't there, but the same could equally be said for childminders in my opinion.

I would say some people may prefer a childminder as they might have some control over the ratio the minder minds? Esp if the childminder minds the child/children in the parents home. I'd say its highly unlikely to have one childminder minding 10 children which I've heard can sometimes happen in crèche?

This is coming from someone who hasn't used a crèche or a childminder tho... So I have no for or against either... It's just an educated guess more than anything.

Rachineire

Anon345 wrote: »

Tell your friend not to expect too much from the HSE.
They are chronically understaffed and even when they do find issues, they seem to have limited sanctions that they can bring.
It's more common to hear of a restaurant being closed than a crèche being closed.

Our son was forgotten in an internal bathroom from which he could not get out, with the lights off, for three hours 25 minutes in one of the chain crèches last November.
They found him by accident when looking for another child's teddy.
The HSE investigation decided that there should be a repeat inspection for that crèche in a few months time.
Staff involved were moved to another branch of the chain.
No action taken against the crèche management or owners despite breaches of ratios.

I felt sick reading this- your poor boy. It makes me so angry that they could try and cover up something like this! I hope your little boy is ok.

walshb

Shocking/terrifying ordeal for that little lad. Not surprising unfortunately. I hope he is doing well now.

kippy

Anon,
That was an awful thing to happen in an environment where you expect everything to be A1. I feel so sorry for your son. Hopefully he got over it and there were no lasting effects on him.
The creche appear to have gotten off relatively scot free on this incident.

As well as the initial query from the OP on where one can report issues, I wonder is there somewhere where you can see verified complaints/issues/sanctions against a creche?
I know there are reports that are published but I'm not too sure how easy these are to get through.

We've a minder for the majority of our minding and use a creche now and again for a few half days here at there.
We are blessed with our minder and in fairness the creche we use is A1 also.
You need to get a great service from these providers based on the cost paid.

IvyTheTerrible

kippy wrote: »

Anon,
...
You need to get a great service from these providers based on the cost paid.

Not just on the cost paid, but on the responsibility and trust we put into them too.

kippy

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Not just on the cost paid, but on the responsibility and trust we put into them too.

Of course.

walshb

kippy wrote: »

Anon,
That was an awful thing to happen in an environment where you expect everything to be A1. I feel so sorry for your son. Hopefully he got over it and there were no lasting effects on him.
The creche appear to have gotten off relatively scot free on this incident.

I wouldn't expect it to be A1 in a creche. It's many young children being looked after for 8-10 hrs a day by a limited number of staff. So much opportunity for mistakes and issues and failings. No matter how committed some of the staff are they cannot be A1.

kippy

walshb wrote: »

I wouldn't expect it to be A1 in a creche. It's many young children being looked after for 8-10 hrs a day by a limited number of staff. So much opportunity for mistakes and issues and failings. No matter how committed some of the staff are they cannot be A1.

Well that's true and fair however,

Locking a child in a bathroom, with the lights off, for over 3 hours without anyone noticing, for example, is worth more than a slap on the wrist to the organisation that allowed that to happen.
It's well below the standard you'd expect.

walshb

kippy wrote: »

Well that's true and fair however,

Locking a child in a bathroom, with the lights off, for over 3 hours without anyone noticing, for example, is worth more than a slap on the wrist to the organisation that allowed that to happen.
It's well below the standard you'd expect.

That case is bad, agreed. But stuff like that doesn't surprise me in a creche environment. There have been cases where children have died whilst in the care of a creche. Wasn't a young boy (maybe 2) found dead at a pool in a park whilst out on a walk with a creche? That happened a year or two ago.

Rose35

walshb wrote: »

I wouldn't expect it to be A1 in a creche. It's many young children being looked after for 8-10 hrs a day by a limited number of staff. So much opportunity for mistakes and issues and failings. No matter how committed some of the staff are they cannot be A1.

Well I expect an A1 service from my creche otherwise I wouldn't have dropped off my son there this morning!!!!! They have never claimed to give less than an A1 service if they did then I would have taken my business elsewhere.

walshb

Rose35 wrote: »

Well I expect an A1 service from my creche otherwise I wouldn't have dropped off my son there this morning!!!!! They have never claimed to give less than an A1 service if they did then I would have taken my business elsewhere.

Best of luck with that. I suppose an A1 service is a subjective term. Depends on what a parent would class as acceptable care.

A1 as regards creche care may not be A1 as regards a parent's expectation.

walshb

I was one who thought that the Prime Time programme from a year ago or thereabouts was over stated and sensationalized. Sure, there were issues, but the programme was way OTT in its criticisms.

Rose35

walshb wrote: »

I was one who thought that the Prime Time programme from a year ago or thereabouts was over stated and sensationalized. Sure, there were issues, but the programme was way OTT in its criticisms.

I was horrified by the prime time report, Ididn't think is was over stated or sensationalized, it stated what happened but
I am confident it is not happening in the creche I drop my child into, have you reservations about your childcare choice?

walshb

Rose35 wrote: »

I was horrified by the prime time report, Ididn't think is was over stated or sensationalized, it stated what happened but
I am confident it is not happening in the creche I drop my child into, have you reservations about your childcare choice?

There were some issues with the creches in the programme, no doubt, but the programme sensationalized a lot. Some of the stuff it stated that happened did happen, but it wasn't as bad as they were trying to make it out. In a one-one scenario a creche (child minder scenario) would be great, but it's usually 1 person watching/tending to maybe 8-10 children. I could be wrong on the figures.

"Every crèche must abide by the statutory ratios of staff to children. In a full-time or a part-time daycare service, there must be one adult to every three children under the age of one.

That ratio climbs to five-to-one for children aged between one and two, six-to-one for children aged between two and three, and eight-to-one for children aged between three and six."
- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/life/family/mothers-babies/ratios-and-regulations-how-crches-are-controlled-26884899.html#sthash.bcpnnBbn.dpuf

I realize that creches are a necessity for many. But leaving your child into a creche will always pose risks. Always. You cannot expect your child to receive the level of attention and care that it most likely would receive from its mother or father.

And, you can vet someone all you like. It doesn't guarantee that you will get decent and caring and diligent workers. These workers are normal people with no real connection to the children. It's a calculated risk you take.

Millem

Rose35 wrote: »

I was horrified by the prime time report, Ididn't think is was over stated or sensationalized, it stated what happened but
I am confident it is not happening in the creche I drop my child into, have you reservations about your childcare choice?

I don't think it was sensationalised either sure a week or so after the programme aired didn't a child manage to walk out of one of the crèches in question?

Chattastrophe!

walshb wrote: »

There were some issues with the creches in the programme, no doubt, but the programme sensationalized a lot. Some of the stuff it stated that happened did happen, but it wasn't as bad as they were trying to make it out. In a one-one scenario a creche (child minder scenario) would be great, but it's usually 1 person watching/tending to maybe 8-10 children. I could be wrong on the figures.

"Every crèche must abide by the statutory ratios of staff to children. In a full-time or a part-time daycare service, there must be one adult to every three children under the age of one.

That ratio climbs to five-to-one for children aged between one and two, six-to-one for children aged between two and three, and eight-to-one for children aged between three and six."
- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/life/family/mothers-babies/ratios-and-regulations-how-crches-are-controlled-26884899.html#sthash.bcpnnBbn.dpuf

I realize that creches are a necessity for many. But leaving your child into a creche will always pose risks. Always. You cannot expect your child to receive the level of attention and care that it most likely would receive from its mother or father.

And, you can vet someone all you like. It doesn't guarantee that you will get decent and caring and diligent workers. These workers are normal people with no real connection to the children. It's a calculated risk you take.

It depends on the creche. There are certainly some creches where I wouldn't leave my son for even five minutes!

Creche is not a necessity for us, it's a choice. We'd be financially better off if one of us were to give up work. One of us could have stayed home, or we could have gone for the childminder or au-pair option (both much cheaper than creche.) And this is absolutely what we would have done if we didn't feel the creche was the best possible place for him.

I've been there to leave him off or pick him up at just about any time of the day. From what I've seen, in his room, there are usually 3-4 minders (all lovely, mature, professional women who my son adores) for 8-10 babies. I'm completely happy with that ratio. I have never seen a child left unattended any time I've dropped in.

I absolutely do expect (and feel) that he receives the same level of attention and care that he would be getting at home. In fact I feel he probably gets more undivided attention and stimulation. I certainly don't check on him every ten minutes while he's napping (and I know this is done - I check the timesheets on the nap room doors every time I call in, especially when I've done so in the middle of the day! They are always up to date and never filled in in advance.) They are giving him very individual attention with his weaning and giving us great advice, and he's getting on brilliantly with the meals that they cook for him on the premises - he's getting far more variety than he would at home (for example, we don't eat fish, but he gets it once a week in there - in fact he gets a different type of meat each day of the week, along with a big selection of veg.) They do loads of varied activities with the babies every day, something I wouldn't necessarily have time to do at home, when I'm focussing on housework and cooking etc as well. And the biggest thing that I can't provide at home is the stimulation he gets from interaction with other babies and children. This was a big deciding factor for us.

Then there's the "safety in numbers" element ... I'm fussy about his care, I keep a close eye on exactly how things are run in the creche and what the standards are like. And it's good to know that there are so many other parents of babies in his creche, who are also expecting the very highest standards for their babies, and who will pick up on the things I miss out on and challenge the creche on them. (Not that I've ever had to challenge them on anything so far, I've had no issues.) But it's just comforting to know that I'm not just depending on my own perspective. Depending on parents' schedules, appointments, etc, there are parents calling in randomly all day every day, as it's a very large creche. Even though I trust them, it's good to know at the same time that they're being constantly checked in on by other parents too. And it wouldn't be such a popular creche with such a long waiting list if the other parents didn't trust them as much as I do - there are plenty other cheaper or similarly-priced creches in the area.

I do agree that there are dodgy creches out there - lots of them, as the monitoring really isn't in any way up to date. But there are good ones too, and I think it's very unfair to write them all off as a not-so-ideal option. It mightn't be what works for every family - I completely accept that childminders, au-pairs, stay-at-home parents etc might be what works for some ... for us, creche is what works by far the best. I don't like your view that a creche is a necessary evil - for us, it's the perfect choice for our family, and I have no regrets about it. It's just about finding the right creche.

walshb

Chattastrophe!, you got the Carlsberg of creches. No, seriously, that is great to hear. I am sure there are creches out there which are running things very well.

Neyite

walshb wrote: »

Chattastrophe!, you got the Carlsberg of creches. No, seriously, that is great to hear. I am sure there are creches out there which are running things very well.

I have to say our creche is brilliant too. I viewed a couple of them that seemed hectic and cramped but the minute I walked into this one, I felt a good vibe. It was spacious and spotless, with lots and lots of toys and cheerful decor. Children were milling around playing happily. One was having a tantrum at the time and a staffer was preoccupied handling it so I was able to observe unnoticed how they deal with those. Each and every staffer has a childcare qualification, or a junior in training for their qualification under the supervison of a qualified staffer, there is a small turnover in staff, many have been there years, there is a qualified chef preparing home cooked meals, and the manager is a Registered Nurse.

I downloaded the HSE report of their inspection which was done two months before I enrolled. In the initial viewing, the manager was candid with us, explaining what was highlighted in the report at the time, and the changes that were implemented at the time. She had no idea that I'd read this already. I saw each and every one of those changes, bar one which was to do with the placement of baby changing facilities in interconnecting rooms. The HSE wanted them down a hallway, away from the playrooms. Logistical nightmare, and structural issue too, in a purpose built creche. I saw that as a non-issue.

Both my partner and I have dropped in at various times of the day to drop off and pick up our child, and have never seen anything untoward. The ratios are always observed, and charts and logs are completed.

But what I see aside from that, what gives me real confidence in the creche, is that in the three rooms that my child has progressed in, the staff know my child. They know him well enough to spot that he is off form, not his usual self, or quiet and tell us. They know as well as I do what he likes and dislikes without me telling them - the little things like the fact that he loves having his temple stroked falling asleep, or that you can distract him with any toy that has wheels, who he likes to play with, what foods he prefers and so on.

I'm not claiming that the creche is perfect. But its well run, well staffed, and he runs in the door in the morning every day, delighted to spend the day there, and I feel that though it was the marginally more expensive creche, it was worth paying the little extra for.

walshb

Great to hear these success stories. Do as much research as you can and hope all works out. This may sound harsh, but the person ultimately responsible for the child's well being is the parent, creche error or not. It's the parent that puts their child in the care of "strangers."

Anon345

walshb wrote: »

..This may sound harsh, but the person ultimately responsible for the child's well being is the parent, creche error or not. It's the parent that puts their child in the care of "strangers."

True

Neyite

walshb wrote: »

Great to hear these success stories. Do as much research as you can and hope all works out. This may sound harsh, but the person ultimately responsible for the child's well being is the parent, creche error or not. It's the parent that puts their child in the care of "strangers."

I think its important to go with your gut feeling too. Even if it was unfounded, YOU will be the one sitting at work worrying about your little one. If you get a gut feeling about a carer or childcare facility, listen to your gut.

Millem

I found crèches to be cheaper than a minder if you work a full day. In am in south dublin