Sam Harris on the Israel-Palestine Conflict

shewasdiesel

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Non Hamas supporters do though ( see above). And there are no Hamas supporters here.....

Are hamas terrorists or not ?

Frank Lee Midere

shewasdiesel wrote: »

Are hamas terrorists or not ?

Yes. Although killing Israeli soldiers after an invasion isn't a terrorist act, Hamas have engaged in terrorism. The 1,300 dead Palestinians, and the million displaced, are not Hamas though. Despite your attempt at collective punishment.

Turtwig

Whatever way one dresses it up the only reason Hamas haven't killed more is because Israel's missil defence system is so good. If that fails then Hamas also kill more innocent people. Both sides want blood, more blood will fuel bloodshed. It's a vicious circle. Trying to point the finger at either side as if there's somehow bad guys here is a bit futile imo. The more they delve on the past the less chances they'll have of obtaining a lasting future peace.

shewasdiesel

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Yes. Although killing Israeli soldiers after an invasion isn't a terrorist act, Hamas have engaged in terrorism. The 1,300 dead Palestinians, and the million displaced, are not Hamas though. Despite your attempt at collective punishment.

You can pretend one terrorist who chooses to kill civilians is better than another, I'm not

Brown Bomber

marienbad wrote: »

I think these are meaningless questions just designed to elicit a specific response.

No nation with a vastly superior advantage would agree to a 10 year truce with an enemy whose goal is that state's destruction . Why would they ?

For peace. We can go through them one by one. Tell me where there demands are unreasonable.

the withdrawal of Israeli military tanks from the border fence area to a distance that enables Gaza farmers to access their fields and tend them freely.

Do you have any objection to Gazan farmers farming their own land free from the risk of harm?

Brown Bomber

Turtwig wrote: »

Whatever way one dresses it up the only reason Hamas haven't killed more is because Israel's missil defence system is so good. If that fails then Hamas also kill more innocent people. Both sides want blood, more blood will fuel bloodshed. It's a vicious circle. Trying to point the finger at either side as if there's somehow bad guys here is a bit futile imo. The more they delve on the past the less chances they'll have of obtaining a lasting future peace.

But why are they firing rockets this time?

Turtwig

Brown Bomber wrote: »

But why are they firing rockets this time?

To try to kill people.

shewasdiesel

Brown Bomber wrote: »

But why are they firing rockets this time?

The same reason the Israelis are, to terrorise and kill civilians.

marienbad

Brown Bomber wrote: »

For peace. We can go through them one by one. Tell me where there demands are unreasonable.


Do you have any objection to Gazan farmers farming their own land free from the risk of harm?

No need, why not answer my question ?

Brown Bomber

Turtwig wrote: »

To try to kill people.

OK, but why are they trying to kill people? What is their motivation? 1) In general and 2) In this specific case

Brown Bomber

marienbad wrote: »

No need, why not answer my question ?

No need? No need what? I'm not sure how that answers whether you believe that Gazan farmers should be able to tend to their own farms to feed themselves.

The answer to your question is painfully obvious. If you want peace you need to engage in diplomacy with your enemies. It's why Nixon went to China and the world was a safer place because of it.

Azwaldo55

Brown Bomber wrote: »

No need? No need what? I'm not sure how that answers whether you believe that Gazan farmers should be able to tend to their own farms to feed themselves.

The answer to your question is painfully obvious. If you want peace you need to engage in diplomacy with your enemies. It's why Nixon went to China and the world was a safer place because of it.

Israel: OK so what do you guys want?

Hamas: We want to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. Allahu Akbar!

(End of discussion)

You are utterly naive. Embarrassingly so.

Turtwig

Brown Bomber wrote: »

OK, but why are they trying to kill people? What is their motivation? 1) In general and 2) In this specific case

In general because they don't recognise and resent Israel. In this specific case you don't know and I don't know either. Unless you have a way of getting inside their heads.

Brown Bomber

Turtwig wrote: »

In general because they don't recognise and resent Israel.

Right, and why do they resent and not recognise Israel?

Turtwig wrote: »

In this specific case you don't know and I don't know either. Unless you have a way of getting inside their heads.

Actually I do know. It's been in the news. I described the http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91246816&postcount=180hain of events some weeks ago.

To add to that would be the night-raids, the bulldozing of homes and the rounding up and torture of hundreds of innocent Palestinians. As well as Israel admitting that Hamas had nothing to do with the kidnappings. http://topinfopost.com/2014/07/27/israel-admits-hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-3-israeli-teens-after-all

A couple of weeks before that I e ven predicted this on this site before it had happened,

Brown Bomber

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Israel: OK so what do you guys want?

Hamas: We want to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. Allahu Akbar!

(End of discussion)

You are utterly naive. Embarrassingly so.

Perhaps I am but tell me, why you said that "Israel was loathsome"? Were you lying?

robindch

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

You are utterly naive. Embarrassingly so.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Were you lying?

Entirely unacceptable language from the two of you.

Cut it out or you'll both be carded or banned at the moderators' pleasure.

tayto lover

shewasdiesel wrote: »

Are hamas terrorists or not ?

Yes but not as big or as ruthless as the Israeli terrorists who think nothing of butchering children and even boast about it.

SeaBreezes

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Yes, I can. 10 years of peace and Gazan's having a decade to live as humans with a degree of liberty would naturally move us closer to a final peaceful solution.

Now could you please answer the question? Which of Hamas' 10 conditions for a 10-year ceasefire are unreasonable and why?

I just learned that gaza owns 5-6 billion reserves of gas fields per annum. http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2489992/armed_robbery_in_gaza_israel_us_uk_carve_up_the_spoils_of_palestines_stolen_gas.html israel wants/needs it. Israel will run out if gas in the next 15 years...

THAT explains this unprovoked attack and the annihilation of these people...

SeaBreezes

shewasdiesel wrote: »

You can pretend one terrorist who chooses to kill civilians is better than another, I'm not

Yes. Because we know which side you choose and whos paying you.

For shame.

SeaBreezes

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Israel: OK so what do you guys want?

Hamas: We want to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. Allahu Akbar!

(End of discussion)

You are utterly naive. Embarrassingly so.

You are the embarrassing one. Hence the block from other threads..... Stop derailing ...

carpejugulum

It's apparent that some people here are unable to understand that fanatical religious beliefs and delusions are behind Hamas' goal to destroy Israel and kill jews.
Hirsi Ali described this phenomenon well in her recent interview.
Another good write-up on this topic from Ali A. Rizvi.

tayto lover

carpejugulum wrote: »

It's apparent that some people here are unable to understand that fanatical religious beliefs and delusions are behind Hamas' goal to destroy Israel and kill jews.
Hirsi Ali described this phenomenon well in her recent interview.
Another good write-up on this topic from Ali A. Rizvi.

The Israelis are equally as fanatical in their beliefs and desires.
They want all the Palestinian lands and to kill all the citizens of that poor forlorn country.
You seem unable to understand that.

R P McMurphy

carpejugulum wrote: »

It's apparent that some people here are unable to understand that fanatical religious beliefs and delusions are behind Hamas' goal to destroy Israel and kill jews.
Hirsi Ali described this phenomenon well in her recent interview.
Another good write-up on this topic from Ali A. Rizvi.

Is it lost on you that the entire zionist programme is based on fanatical religious beliefs and delusions are behind israeli attempts to create a greater israel and remove the indigenous inhabitants

carpejugulum

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes but not as big or as ruthless as the Israeli terrorists who think nothing of butchering children and even boast about it.

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Is it lost on you that the entire zionist programme is based on fanatical religious beliefs and delusions are behind israeli attempts to create a greater israel and remove the indigenous inhabitants

Of course there are religious fanatics in Israel.
The entire conflict is from the beginning religious and tribal. But the fanatics in Israel have much less support and power than Hamas.
Fundamental Judaism doesn't rule Israel's foreign policy. If it did, Palestinians would have been wiped out a long time ago.
If it did, Israel wouldn't bother invading Gaza by land or looking for and blowing up tunnels.
It would just destroy all of it from air without risking lives of soldiers.

tayto lover wrote: »

They want all the Palestinian lands and to kill all the citizens of that poor forlorn country.

They are terrible at it so. ISIS have killed more civilians than Israel in the last few weeks.

SeaBreezes

carpejugulum wrote: »

Of course there are religious fanatics in Israel.
The entire conflict is from the beginning religious and tribal. But the fanatics in Israel have much less support and power than Hamas.
Fundamental Judaism doesn't rule Israel's foreign policy. If it did, Palestinians would have been wiped out a long time ago.
If it did, Israel wouldn't bother invading Gaza by land or looking for and blowing up tunnels.
It would just destroy all of it from air without risking lives of soldiers.

They are terrible at it so. ISIS have killed more civilians than Israel in the last few weeks.

Stop. We all see what Israel are doing. Its pretty blatant at this stage. And all to take over Gazas natural resources and create the biggest humanitarian crisis possible to distract as they extract the gas..

Panrich

All this (and the Syrian situation too) shows that the UN are powerless to stop state sponsored terrorism with US/Russia wielding too much power. Nothing to stop these rogue states from killing civilians with impunity while the world looks on helpless.

carpejugulum

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Stop. We all see what Israel are doing. Its pretty blatant at this stage. And all to take over Gazas natural resources and create the biggest humanitarian crisis possible to distract as they extract the gas..

Any actual arguments?

tayto lover

carpejugulum wrote: »

Any actual arguments?

The arguments are on our screens every day. Murder is murder. Stop denying it.

Brown Bomber

carpejugulum wrote: »

It's apparent that some people here are unable to understand that fanatical religious beliefs and delusions are behind Hamas' goal to destroy Israel and kill jews.
Hirsi Ali described this phenomenon well in her recent interview.
Another good write-up on this topic from Ali A. Rizvi.

It's apparent that some people here are unable to understand the fanatical anti-Islam bigotry of Hirishi Ali and are behind her goal to destroy Islam
and Muslims.

I think that we are at war with Islam. And there’s no middle ground in wars. Islam can be defeated in many ways. ... you look them in the eye and flex your muscles and you say, “This is a warning. We won’t accept this anymore.” There comes a moment when you crush your enemy.

http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west/singlepage

She also thinks that the US Constitution and the bill of rights should be altered to discriminate against Muslims.

Nodin

carpejugulum wrote: »

Of course there are religious fanatics in Israel.
The entire conflict is from the beginning religious and tribal. But the fanatics in Israel have much less support and power than Hamas.
Fundamental Judaism doesn't rule Israel's foreign policy. If it did, Palestinians would have been wiped out a long time ago.
If it did, Israel wouldn't bother invading Gaza by land or looking for and blowing up tunnels.
It would just destroy all of it from air without risking lives of soldiers.

.

Whatever might be governing Israels policy, the fact is that it is colonising outside its borders illegally for nearly have a century. In that time there have been thousands of deaths, beatings, incidents of torture, assassination etc, all to grab land.

Brown Bomber

carpejugulum wrote: »

It's apparent that some people here are unable to understand that fanatical religious beliefs and delusions are behind Hamas' goal to destroy Israel and kill jews.
Hirsi Ali described this phenomenon well in her recent interview.
Another good write-up on this topic from Ali A. Rizvi.

Whose fundamentalists wrote this?

“History has chosen us to be the sharp edge of the bayonet of fighting the terrorist enemy

‘from Gaza’

which curses, defames and abuses the God of

Israel’s

battles.” “We will act together forcefully and with resolve, with initiative and with deceptive tricks and aim for contact with the enemy. We will do everything to live up to the mission and wipe out the enemy and remove the threat from the

Nation of Israel

,”

ANSWER

Can you explain the context of this religiously inspired evil?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlCRMxUDPPw

ANSWER

Azwaldo55

The only solution is to ultimately overthrow Hamas.

When this latest Israeli offensive comes to a close in a matter of days and Israel pull back once again, the strangle hold will remain on Gaza with Egypt and Israel pinning Hamas down. Hamas will seek to rebuild the tunnels, re-arm, replenished its numbers and organize for another round of fighting in a few years time.

So if those who claim to care so much about the Palestinians really did they would seek the end of Hamas.

recedite

marienbad wrote: »

The situation is as it is, to subvert Jerry Adam's phrase ' Israel is not going away you know ' and no amount of saying you can't do this that or the other
(particularly when they can) will change that fact.

So how do we move forward ?

swampgas wrote: »

I don't see any way out of the current situation, the political and religious positions seem far too entrenched.

A single Palestinian state. Secular, with a constitution and/or a bill of rights guaranteeing equality for all citizens. Complete separation of church and state. Dissolve Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.
For most of recorded history, jews, christians and muslims lived (and prospered) side by side in the middle east.

marienbad

recedite wrote: »

A single Palestinian state. Secular, with a constitution and/or a bill of rights guaranteeing equality for all citizens. Complete separation of church and state. Dissolve Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.
For most of recorded history, jews, christians and muslims lived (and prospered) side by side in the middle east.

Dissolve Israel ? So where do the Israelis go ?

Azwaldo55

recedite wrote: »

A single Palestinian state. Secular, with a constitution and/or a bill of rights guaranteeing equality for all citizens. Complete separation of church and state. Dissolve Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.
For most of recorded history, jews, christians and muslims lived (and prospered) side by side in the middle east.

Hamas would violently oppose anything less than a Taliban style Islamic state. They already violently attack Jews and they believe in forcing all other faiths to convert to Islam, pay the jizya tax or die. The brutal internal repression of Gazans by Hamas should tell you all you need to know.

Israel has one of the largest armies in the world and possesses nuclear weapons and would fight any solution imposed on them from outside.
You obviously haven't been paying attention to overwhelming Israeli victories in 1948, 1967 and 1973 and their on-going defense of Israel from attack?
Why would Israel surrender to their dissolution?

Your proposals are complete non-starters.:D

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

Dissolve Israel ? So where do the Israelis go ?

The new state, hence 'single state solution'.


Personally I think its totally unworkable, and there's certainly virtually no appetite for it on the Israeli side.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

The new state, hence 'single state solution'.


Personally I think its totally unworkable, and there's certainly virtually no appetite for it on the Israeli side.

Absolutely , no chance what so ever , turkeys just don't vote for Christmas

Azwaldo55

Israel has discovered a manual detailing to Hamas terrorists from their leaders how to use civilians as human shields.

In a portion entitled “Limiting the Use of Weapons,” the manual explains that:

The soldiers and commanders (of the IDF) must limit their use of weapons and tactics that lead to the harm and unnecessary loss of people and [destruction of] civilian facilities. It is difficult for them to get the most use out of their firearms, especially of supporting fire [e.g. artillery].

Clearly Hamas knows the IDF will limit its use of weapons in order to avoid harming civilians, including refraining from using larger firepower to support for infantry.

The manual goes on to explain that the “presence of civilians are pockets of resistance” that cause three major problems for advancing troops:

(1) Problems with opening fire
(2) Problems in controlling the civilian population during operations and afterward
(3) Assurance of supplying medical care to civilians who need it

Lastly, the manual discusses the benefits for Hamas when civilian homes are destroyed:

The destruction of civilian homes: This increases the hatred of the citizens towards the attackers [the IDF] and increases their gathering [support] around the city defenders (resistance forces[i.e. Hamas]).

It is clear that Hamas actually desires the destruction of homes and civilian infrastructure, knowing it will increase hatred for the IDF and support their fighters.

http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

It is clear then that Israel has been proven correct.

Hamas in their own words have adopted the tactics of using human shields while firing rockets at Israel.

This is what you are defending when you are making excuses for Hamas.

Argument over.

Time to eat humble pie chaps?

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

Absolutely , no chance what so ever , turkeys just don't vote for Christmas

Given recent history you may be designating the wrong side as the proverbial 'Turkeys'.

Nodin

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Israel has discovered a manual detailing to Hamas terrorists from their leaders how to use civilians as human shields.
........................
.

Jaysus, fancy that.

Corkfeen

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The only solution is to ultimately overthrow Hamas.

When this latest Israeli offensive comes to a close in a matter of days and Israel pull back once again, the strangle hold will remain on Gaza with Egypt and Israel pinning Hamas down. Hamas will seek to rebuild the tunnels, re-arm, replenished its numbers and organize for another round of fighting in a few years time.

So if those who claim to care so much about the Palestinians really did they would seek the end of Hamas.

It's common sense that killing thousands of civilians which they're currently doing will result in more extremists rather than less. There's no long term benefit even for Israel if their intent is to reduce extremism because realistically you can not win this with an army,you have to behave like decent human beings.

In relation to the human shield stuff, most journalists in Gaza are stating that they see no evidence of it.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

Given recent history you may be designating the wrong side as the proverbial 'Turkeys'.

Indeed , the one state solution will never happen , that is unless one side wipes out the other.

Azwaldo55

Nodin wrote: »

Jaysus, fancy that.

Are you going to admit you were utterly wrong?

This is the smoking gun of smoking guns.

Azwaldo55

Corkfeen wrote: »

It's common sense that killing thousands of civilians which they're currently doing will result in more extremists rather than less. There's no long term benefit even for Israel if their intent is to reduce extremism because realistically you can not win this with an army,you have to behave like decent human beings.

Hamas firing rockets at Israeli civilians is decent is it? They use their own civilians as human shields.

Your lack of criticism of Hamas speaks volumes.

Corkfeen

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Are you going to admit you were utterly wrong?

This is the smoking gun of smoking guns.

Not really,we know that Israel write plenty of propaganda around this situation and your source is the IDF no less.

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Hamas firing rockets at Israeli civilians is decent is it? They use their own civilians as human shields.

Your lack of criticism of Hamas speaks volumes.

No I don't approve of Hamas firing rockets. I will repeat there is no proof of human shields being used. I despise Hamas but then we have Israel who aren't exactly behaving correctly either. They'll happily blow up every Palestinian civilian if they have to. They have displaced hundreds of thousands and really their current government despises Arabs. Proof of this includes the Lieberman Plan by their foreign minister and miscegenation laws of all things. This is why the Israeli government puts little value upon the lives that are being lost.

Nodin

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Are you going to admit you were utterly wrong?

This is the smoking gun of smoking guns.

It's from an IDF blog......why would I accept their translation of something I can't read myself?

Nodin

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Hamas firing rockets at Israeli civilians is decent is it? They use their own civilians as human shields.

Your lack of criticism of Hamas speaks volumes.

And your fixation on Hamas is odd.

Azwaldo55

Corkfeen wrote: »

Not really,we know that Israel write plenty of propaganda around this situation and your source is the IDF no less.

And so the parrot sketch continues.:D

Corkfeen

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

And so the parrot sketch continues.:D

Doing a quick search on the manuals indicates that the vast majority of the press are not reporting on them. It would appear that they are not independently verified as legitimate so it's sort of like sourcing information from Cold War Russia.

Brown Bomber

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Israel has discovered a manual detailing to Hamas terrorists from their leaders how to use civilians as human shields.







http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

It is clear then that Israel has been proven correct.

Hamas in their own words have adopted the tactics of using human shields while firing rockets at Israel.

This is what you are defending when you are making excuses for Hamas.

Argument over.

Time to eat humble pie chaps?

Meanwhile in the real world -





The tanks, which serve as the heart of the assault force, received an order to open fire at anything that moved. The area and the targets are due to be seized by the morning hours. From here on, [the army] will start to clear the ground, in what could last for several days, depending on political developments."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/israel-us-caution-deaths-gaza-ground-fighting