Sam Harris on the Israel-Palestine Conflict

Brown Bomber

marienbad wrote: »

When did they nor hate Israel ?

A Jewish homeland had widespread support at it's inception (even if the World had to turn a blind Eye to the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people). This was of course Before Israel transformed itself in a inhumane rogue state. Illegally nuclear armed itself. Supported Islamic terrorists against it's enemies, created a Jews-first apartheid state, started wars repeatedly with it's neighbours, placed an entire population under siege and restricting them to diets calculated to give them the bare minimum of nutrition Before they starve to Death, illegally expanded it's territory, ethnically cleansing non-Jews and creating Jews-only colonies, attacked a flotilla of unarmed Peace protestors in international Waters with it's elite commando unit, killing 9, injuring scores and kidnapping the rest. This list can go on and on...

Icepick

Akrasia wrote: »

Em, Israel have a blockade which does not permit construction materials that could be used to make bunkers. If Hamas made bomb shelters, they would need to first dig a load of 'illegal' tunnels in order to smuggle concrete and iron bars through to build re-enforced bomb shelters. And even if Hamas did build bomb shelters, they would be destroyed by the IDF because the IDF will claim that Hamas are using them to store weapons or as headquarters for their militia (just like they claimed the U.N. buildings were being used to stage attacks against Israel.

So the tunnels they actually built instead and the rockets they smuggled and made were a miracle from Allah or a result of a deliberate decision to carry out attacks on Israel, which could only result in the death of Palestinians?
I don't expect rational thinking from a bunch of religious fundamentalists, but why is the same kind of thinking professed by Hamas apologists from the left in the West?

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

I'd say much much longer and the Jews even longer still . Not that that makes much difference to the current situation.

I don't think Israel looses too much sleep over it to be honest .

It's well known that sympathy for Israel waned internationally after they began colonising the occupied territories.

If you want to start conflating anti-Semitism and disdain for Israels policies, you can go down that rabbit hole on your own.

Nodin

Icepick wrote: »

So they started to hate them after an all out arab attack on Israel? Are you actually serious?

Try reading the discussion again to get the context of what I said and then get back to me.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

It's well known that sympathy for Israel waned internationally after they began colonising the occupied territories.

If you want to start conflating anti-Semitism and disdain for Israels policies, you can go down that rabbit hole on your own.

Well there is no doubt that anti Israeli sentiment has increased exponentially since 67 .

And as for anti-Semitism vs anti -Israeli , Israel does indeed play that card much too frequently and indiscriminately but there is also a fundamental bedrock of anti-semitism in Europe and the middle east in particular that shouldn't be ignored.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

And as for anti-Semitism vs anti -Israeli , Israel does indeed play that card much too frequently and indiscriminately but there is also a fundamental bedrock of anti-semitism in Europe and the middle east in particular that shouldn't be ignored.

Unless it arises I fail to see the relevance.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

Unless it arises I fail to see the relevance.

To the current situation you mean ?? if so indeed it has none . unless it helps re-enforce a siege mentality I suppose .

Brian Shanahan

Turtwig wrote: »

Mod: Azwaldo is on a holiday through the event horizon.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

He'll just come back as Sam Neill! Run, everybody, RUN!

Brian Shanahan

Nodin wrote: »

When was the last time Israels neigbours attacked it?

In 1948, in response to nascent Israel's illegal deportation of millions of Palestinians from their homes, and murder of a good porportion of the deportees.

carpejugulum

Video of Hamas assembling a rocket launcher and firing rockets from a residential area:
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/watch-ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets/332910?curl=1407259153

tayto lover

carpejugulum wrote: »

Video of Hamas assembling a rocket launcher and firing rockets from a residential area:
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/watch-ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets/332910?curl=1407259153

In fairness with the density of the population and the risk of trying to fire them from hillsides it is hard to blame them. They'd be picked off quite easily.

obplayer

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

In 1948, in response to nascent Israel's illegal deportation of millions of Palestinians from their homes, and murder of a good porportion of the deportees.

1956 and 1973. The Yom Kippur War, remember? Of course if you count Gaza as a neighbour then last week.

Nodin

obplayer wrote: »

1956 and 1973. The Yom Kippur War, remember? Of course if you count Gaza as a neighbour then last week.

So the last time was 1973 then.

Rather underlines this for the hot air it is....

Their neighbours are constantly attacking Israel and trying to kill all the Jews
because they are Jews.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

So the last time was 1973 then.

Rather underlines this for the hot air it is....

That is a strange reading of history ! Why do you think 1973 was the last time we had a full scale war ?

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

That is a strange reading of history ! Why do you think 1973 was the last time we had a full scale war ?

Who is "we"?

Did you read the quote I was remarking on?

carpejugulum

tayto lover wrote: »

In fairness with the density of the population and the risk of trying to fire them from hillsides it is hard to blame them. They'd be picked off quite easily.

This is a sickening approval of human shield tactics and putting civilians, including children, in harm's way.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

Who is "we"?

Did you read the quote I was remarking on?

Just a colloquialism , if you prefer change to 'there was' .

Yes I read the quote and I took your meaning as it was so long ago any Israeli claims are just hot air . Am I incorrect in that reading ?

obplayer

Nodin wrote: »

So the last time was 1973 then.

Rather underlines this for the hot air it is....

There were also the wars in Lebanon of course which started because, again, Israel was being attacked across it's border.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

Just a colloquialism , if you prefer change to 'there was' .

Yes I read the quote and I took your meaning as it was so long ago any Israeli claims are just hot air . Am I incorrect in that reading ?

I'm beginning to wonder if my post's contents are visible. There was a claim made some pages back -

Their neighbours are constantly attacking Israel and trying to kill all the Jews because they are Jews.

This is clearly "hot air".

Nodin

obplayer wrote: »

There were also the wars in Lebanon of course which started because, again, Israel was being attacked across it's border.

By a group of people displaced by Israel. Not the Lebanese state, or Jordan, or Egypt etc.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder if my post's contents are visible. There was a claim made some pages back -

Their neighbours are constantly attacking Israel and trying to kill all the Jews because they are Jews.

This is clearly "hot air".

So what has 1973 got to do with it ?

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

So what has 1973 got to do with it ?

FFS.....if the last attack by an Arab State was in 1973 then

Their neighbours are constantly attacking Israel and trying to kill all the Jews because they are Jews.

is a crock.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

FFS.....if the last attack by an Arab State was in 1973 then

Their neighbours are constantly attacking Israel and trying to kill all the Jews because they are Jews.

is a crock.

Lets just leave the 'jews because there are jews ' bit aside for a minute. The only reason there have been no full scale attack since 73 is because the result would probably be just the same . That dos'nt mean the desire in certain quarters isn't still there though.

What is your solution for the conflict ?

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

Lets just leave the 'jews because there are jews ' bit aside for a minute. The only reason there have been no full scale attack since 73 is because the result would probably be just the same . That dos'nt mean the desire in certain quarters isn't still there though.?

Was that his argument? No, it was not. There hasn't been a full scale attack, there have been treaties signed and the suggestion made was a crock.

marienbad wrote: »

What is your solution for the conflict ?

Sanctions and a cultural boycott of Israel until it withdraws from Arab East Jerusalem, Golan and the West Bank.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

Was that his argument? No, it was not. There hasn't been a full scale attack, there have been treaties signed and the suggestion made was a crock.




Sanctions and a cultural boycott of Israel until it withdraws from Arab East Jerusalem, Golan and the West Bank.

Well the US will never agree so it will have little effect .

SeaBreezes

marienbad wrote: »

Lets just leave the 'jews because there are jews ' bit aside for a minute. The only reason there have been no full scale attack since 73 is because the result would probably be just the same . That dos'nt mean the desire in certain quarters isn't still there though.

What is your solution for the conflict ?

Ahhh Marienbad you do love a circular argument. Thats the third time you've asked that question. Its a fav of yours when you have no answer.

By the way, thanks for confirming your Israeli :-)

tayto lover

carpejugulum wrote: »

This is a sickening approval of human shield tactics and putting civilians, including children, in harm's way.

The Israelis don't care about human shields they just shoot everything that moves. Now that is sickening in itself. Have you not been watching the t.v. or reading the reports, a family of 8 in a rooftop garden wiped out by a drone, 4 little boys playing football on the beach etc etc and not a member of Hamas within an asses roar of them.

The Israelis are the murderers here and of that there is no doubt They even used Palestinian children by pushing them in front of them as they moved through the streets. here's your human shields right there.

Get off that high horse before you fall on your face.

SeaBreezes

marienbad wrote: »

Well the US will never agree so it will have little effect .

Your hoping.. :-) Im guessing even the US wants rid of Israel now. Psychopathic governments who butcher lie starve and slaughter at ease. Just to control Gazas gas field.

With 'friends' like that who needs enemies?

Turtwig

The US still has a strong conservative base, older demographics and Jewish lobbies supporting Israel. The younger generation though is much less supportive. It wouldn't be surprising if US relations with Israel started to weaken in the coming decades.

marienbad

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Ahhh Marienbad you do love a circular argument. Thats the third time you've asked that question. Its a fav of yours when you have no answer.

By the way, thanks for confirming your Israeli :-)

Indeed I have no answer, unlike others though I don't see that as a fault.

I ask the question because I am interested in the opinion of certain posters.

As for being Israeli or pro- Israeli , that depends - if you mean do I believe in Israel's right to exist then yes , completely . Do I believe in Israel's right to defend itself then yes, absolutely.

Do I believe that it follows from this that Israel has the right to bomb everyone into the stone age then no , absolutely not.

If in your opinion that makes me Israeli then so be it.

obplayer

Turtwig wrote: »

The US still has a strong conservative base, older demographics and Jewish lobbies supporting Israel. The younger generation though is much less supportive. It wouldn't be surprising if US relations with Israel started to weaken in the coming decades.

And the Israeli economy is now self supporting. I'm sure they like the $3 billion a year they get but they no longer need it. Their highest earning exports are high-tech and unless you want to not buy e.g. iphones they are impossible to boycott. You can boycott all the oranges you want. This will become even more so as the years go by. Israel is here to stay and that is the fundamental fact that has to be accepted and dealt with.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

Well the US will never agree so it will have little effect .

The US at one staged backed Apartheid South Africa to the hilt. That was changed with time.

Nodin

obplayer wrote: »

And the Israeli economy is now self supporting. I'm sure they like the $3 billion a year they get but they no longer need it. Their highest earning exports are high-tech and unless you want to not buy e.g. iphones they are impossible to boycott. You can boycott all the oranges you want. This will become even more so as the years go by. Israel is here to stay and that is the fundamental fact that has to be accepted and dealt with.

Why are you saying "Israel is here to stay"?

O the boycott is only the start. You also target companies who use Israeli goods and lobby for sanctions.

Karl Stein

carpejugulum wrote: »

putting civilians, including children, in harm's way.

Gaza is an internment camp. Hamas isn't the real enemy of Israel. The real enemy is the unity and resistance of regular Palestinians. Hamas offered a 10 year truce in exchange for crossings into Egypt and Israel being opened and an international monitor overseeing their main sea port.

Would the Israelis agree to the above or anything approaching it? Not a hope, peace with Palestinians is not in the interests of the Israeli state. Gaza is the 'laboratory' where the Israeli armaments/security industry tests its wares.

The Israeli crushing of dissent/resistance/unity in Gaza also serves as a warning to the Palestinians in the West Bank; 'you think you have it bad? Behave while we colonise you or we can make it a lot worse'.

obplayer

Nodin wrote: »

Why are you saying "Israel is here to stay"?

O the boycott is only the start. You also target companies who use Israeli goods and lobby for sanctions.

To your first question the answer is because it is. In return I ask are you advocating the destruction of Israel?

As for boycott, try boycotting the following...
The major industrial sectors include high-technology products, metal products, electronic and biomedical equipment, agricultural products, processed foods, chemicals, and transport equipment; the Israeli diamond industry is one of the world's centers for diamond cutting and polishing.

High tech companies
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CD0QygQwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FScience_and_technology_in_Israel%23High_tech_companies&ei=QmThU9mBIq-g7Aah54H4Bg&usg=AFQjCNEr7UNCN-cwxTWsJfYx4YsqSZtqhA&sig2=pA2p7a1oyiUtTfN2-FOj1A

Google's Chairman Eric Schmidt complimented the country during a visit there, saying that “Israel has the most important high-tech center in the world after the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel

Brian Shanahan

carpejugulum wrote: »

This is a sickening approval of human shield tactics and putting civilians, including children, in harm's way.

So children being allowed to live with their parents in the city where they were born is a sickening and disgusting ploy now?

Next thing you'll be telling us is that the sky is pink and blood grey.

Grow up and stop spouting the Zionist propoganda.

Brian Shanahan

tayto lover wrote: »

The Israelis don't care about human shields they just shoot everything that moves.

I wouldn't say that exactly. The IDF are so in love with the idea of using Palestinians as human shields that they will go against an Israeli supreme court order banning them from doing so.

It is well documented that the only side in the war of Palestinian liberation that uses human shields is the IDF.

Brian Shanahan

obplayer wrote: »

Google's Chairman Eric Schmidt complimented the country during a visit there, saying that “Israel has the most important high-tech center in the world after the US.

Having an important high tech centre is not that impressive if you cannot access the necessary raw materials or the markets to export. An effective boycott would mean that Israel would be without any raw materials for anything. And if trading with the EU were stopped who would they sell their goods to? If the US dropped them that boycott would be in place about three days later.

obplayer

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Having an important high tech centre is not that impressive if you cannot access the necessary raw materials or the markets to export. An effective boycott would mean that Israel would be without any raw materials for anything. And if trading with the EU were stopped who would they sell their goods to? If the US dropped them that boycott would be in place about three days later.

We are talking about capitalism here, trade with Israel will continue, especially in it's high tech areas. Whether you like it or not that is the reality. Learn to live with it.

marienbad

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Having an important high tech centre is not that impressive if you cannot access the necessary raw materials or the markets to export. An effective boycott would mean that Israel would be without any raw materials for anything. And if trading with the EU were stopped who would they sell their goods to? If the US dropped them that boycott would be in place about three days later.

It is simply not going to happen, not for the foreseeable future.

obplayer

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

So children being allowed to live with their parents in the city where they were born is a sickening and disgusting ploy now?

Next thing you'll be telling us is that the sky is pink and blood grey.

Grow up and stop spouting the Zionist propoganda.

No, launching rocket attacks from where those children are living is a sickening and disgusting ploy. Always.

Karl Stein

obplayer wrote: »

No, launching rocket attacks from where those children are living is a sickening and disgusting ploy. Always.

If Hamas was using laser guided bombs to destroy places where IDF soldiers and Israeli politicians were living would you be saying 'how can these terrorists hide amongst their children'?

Nodin

obplayer wrote: »

To your first question the answer is because it is. In return I ask are you advocating the destruction of Israel?

No.

obplayer wrote: »

As for boycott, try boycotting the following...
The major industrial sectors include high-technology products, metal products, electronic and biomedical equipment, agricultural products, processed foods, chemicals, and transport equipment; the Israeli diamond industry is one of the world's centers for diamond cutting and polishing.

High tech companies
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CD0QygQwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FScience_and_technology_in_Israel%23High_tech_companies&ei=QmThU9mBIq-g7Aah54H4Bg&usg=AFQjCNEr7UNCN-cwxTWsJfYx4YsqSZtqhA&sig2=pA2p7a1oyiUtTfN2-FOj1A

Google's Chairman Eric Schmidt complimented the country during a visit there, saying that “Israel has the most important high-tech center in the world after the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel

It's called BDS - Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions. As time goes by and the moral opprobrium of using Israeli products grows, you'll be surprised the effects it has.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

Lets just leave the 'jews because there are jews ' bit aside for a minute. The only reason there have been no full scale attack since 73 is because the result would probably be just the same . That dos'nt mean the desire in certain quarters isn't still there though.

What is your solution for the conflict ?

Well, what's yours?

Cabaal

I don't normally agree with these types of comment videos but this guy isn't far off being spot on. Ok I don't agree with everything but he makes some very valid points none the less that can't be ignored.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ugsv5u-sW0

Take his comments about freedom and Palestine and people's claims it deserves to be free are spot on. Palestine doesn't have freedom and it won't have freedom because it doesn't want freedom....atleast freedom in our sense of the word.

Lets not forget that pretty much everyone that posts in this forum would likely end up in jail for our comments in this forum about god.

Just like this chap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Husayin (10 months in prison for basically being an atheist)

So I guess they'd have the freedom to restrict what people can think and say? How is that this claimed freedom that many of the pro Palestine people you see around Dublin talk about?

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

Well, what's yours?

I don't think there is one , Israel has maximised its ability to defend itself and minimised its susceptibility to attack and causalities.

I think what we have now is the future , periods of relative calm following by short episodes of extreme violence to maintain that status quo.

Sanctions will never be imposed on Israel,at least in any serious way and it makes no difference what westerns voters think.Israel is just too much a part of the fabric of western civilisation for that to happen.
And that is before we factor in the guilt and strategic questions .

This is a solution from an Israeli perspective .

Akrasia

Cabaal wrote: »

I don't normally agree with these types of comment videos but this guy isn't far off being spot on. Ok I don't agree with everything but he makes some very valid points none the less that can't be ignored.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ugsv5u-sW0

Take his comments about freedom and Palestine and people's claims it deserves to be free are spot on. Palestine doesn't have freedom and it won't have freedom because it doesn't want freedom....atleast freedom in our sense of the word.

Lets not forget that pretty much everyone that posts in this forum would likely end up in jail for our comments in this forum about god.

Just like this chap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Husayin (10 months in prison for basically being an atheist)

So I guess they'd have the freedom to restrict what people can think and say? How is that this claimed freedom that many of the pro Palestine people you see around Dublin talk about?

Islamic fundamentalism is very bad, and the violence fuels the extremists.

Ireland post independence was a fundamentalist christian nation which despised the idea of freedom and banned everything that challenged the status quo, but in a few generations and as we became active participants in the international community the old attitudes died out and the children of the extremists became moderates,and the children of the moderates, became secularists, and the children of those secularists, are atheists.

The way to combat religious fundamentalism is to include them and integrate them into the global economy and include them in cultural events

Isolating them allows the status quo to maintain itself, blockading them and bombing them shifts the status quo more and more into hard-line extremism and only makes things worse for generations to come.

If the children in Palestine had peace and security, and access to the internet and global communications systems the chances of them succumbing to fundamentalism are very much reduced.

Akrasia

marienbad wrote: »

I don't think there is one , Israel has maximised its ability to defend itself and minimised its susceptibility to attack and causalities.

I think what we have now is the future , periods of relative calm following by short episodes of extreme violence to maintain that status quo.

Sanctions will never be imposed on Israel,at least in any serious way and it makes no difference what westerns voters think.Israel is just too much a part of the fabric of western civilisation for that to happen.
And that is before we factor in the guilt and strategic questions .

This is a solution from an Israeli perspective .

It's not a solution at all. It's the perfect outcome for right wing authoritarian politicians who will get to live in a state of permanent war(which they benefit from) it is a terrible solution to the people of Israel who will live under constant stress and fear of attack, and it is certainly not a solution for the Palestinian people who face a future of inhuman subjugation which inevitablly results in uprisings.

Permanent internment of the palestinians into concentration camps is a ridiculously bad idea for Israel. What happens if/when Israel gets into a dispute with one of it's neighbours who then decide to arm the palestinians to use as a proxy army against Israel. If the palestinians had sophisticated weapons they could pose a very serious threat to Israel.

Millions of very angry well armed extremists would overwhelm the border defences of Israel, especially if Israel is involved in a conflict elsewhere and their military is divided.

marienbad

Akrasia wrote: »

Islamic fundamentalism is very bad, and the violence fuels the extremists.

Ireland post independence was a fundamentalist christian nation which despised the idea of freedom and banned everything that challenged the status quo, but in a few generations and as we became active participants in the international community the old attitudes died out and the children of the extremists became moderates,and the children of the moderates, became secularists, and the children of those secularists, are atheists.

The way to combat religious fundamentalism is to include them and integrate them into the global economy and include them in cultural events

Isolating them allows the status quo to maintain itself, blockading them and bombing them shifts the status quo more and more into hard-line extremism and only makes things worse for generations to come.

If the children in Palestine had peace and security, and access to the internet and global communications systems the chances of them succumbing to fundamentalism are very much reduced.

I think we can all agree with that , try telling it to the likes of the mullahs ,ISIS and Hamas and the like .

Brown Bomber

Cabaal wrote: »

atleast freedom in our sense of the word.

What has your "sense of the word" got to do with anything!? Are you the one with bombs dropping on your head and being forced to live under a brutal military occupation? This lying Zionist scumbag and war crimes apologist is just a propagandist.

If you want to learn about "freedom" and not make absurd and offensive orientalist statements like Palestine "doesn't want freedom" Watch this instead. Graphic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwpvI8rX72o