Sam Harris on the Israel-Palestine Conflict

marienbad

Akrasia wrote: »

It's not a solution at all. It's the perfect outcome for right wing authoritarian politicians who will get to live in a state of permanent war(which they benefit from) it is a terrible solution to the people of Israel who will live under constant stress and fear of attack, and it is certainly not a solution for the Palestinian people who face a future of inhuman subjugation which inevitablly results in uprisings.

Permanent internment of the palestinians into concentration camps is a ridiculously bad idea for Israel. What happens if/when Israel gets into a dispute with one of it's neighbours who then decide to arm the palestinians to use as a proxy army against Israel. If the palestinians had sophisticated weapons they could pose a very serious threat to Israel.

Millions of very angry well armed extremists would overwhelm the border defences of Israel, especially if Israel is involved in a conflict elsewhere and their military is divided.

Well from an Israeli viewpoint it contains the situation as they find it right now. As regards those potential threats you outline , I am sure they have a contingency plan for those also . Just as they have had to have a plan to deal with a series of evolving combinations over the last 70 years or so.

Akrasia

marienbad wrote: »

I think we can all agree with that , try telling it to the likes of the mullahs ,ISIS and Hamas and the like .

Unfortunately once extremists are created, it can take decades to undo that damage. ISIS and Hamas were born in war and they need war to survive.

The best way to combat them is through peace, but peace is much harder than war. War is easy, peace is hard (especially when we have right wing politicians all over the world who think the only solution to violence is more violence, and who have a blinkered view of power and control linked directly with authoritarianism and military force)

Akrasia

marienbad wrote: »

Well from an Israeli viewpoint it contains the situation as they find it right now. As regards those potential threats you outline , I am sure they have a contingency plan for those also . Just as they have had to have a plan to deal with a series of evolving combinations over the last 70 years or so.

Without wanting to godwin the argument, but if the Palestinians are expected to live for ever on the borders of Israel in blocaded glorified refugee camps, when the inevitable uprising occors, there will be calls for a more 'final' solution than the one you present.

marienbad

Akrasia wrote: »

Without wanting to godwin the argument, but if the Palestinians are expected to live for ever on the borders of Israel in blocaded glorified refugee camps, when the inevitable uprising occors, there will be calls for a more 'final' solution than the one you present.

That has been an on-going threat for over 50 years openly and frequently stated. And might go someway to explaining the Israeli response .

Cabaal

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What has your "sense of the word" got to do with anything!?

Fine, I'll go for everyone else's usage of the word freedom
:rolleyes:

free·dom
[free-duhm] Show IPA
noun
1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3. the power to determine action without restraint.
4. political or national independence.
5. personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery: a slave who bought his freedom.

Arresting a man because he's an atheist is not freedom, its a state that wants to control people.

Nodin

Cabaal wrote: »

I don't normally agree with these types of comment videos but this guy isn't far off being spot on. Ok I don't agree with everything but he makes some very valid points none the less that can't be ignored.

Firstly, he's a notorious pig ignorant arsehole who likes to dress up his bigotry as 'criticism'.

Secondly, as unlovely as Hamas are, the fact is that Israel is about as democratic and free as Apartheid South Africa. If you were to aquaint yourself with the occupation, you wouldn't give this crap the time of day.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

I don't think there is one , Israel has maximised its ability to defend itself and minimised its susceptibility to attack and causalities.

I think what we have now is the future , periods of relative calm following by short episodes of extreme violence to maintain that status quo.

Sanctions will never be imposed on Israel,at least in any serious way and it makes no difference what westerns voters think.Israel is just too much a part of the fabric of western civilisation for that to happen.
And that is before we factor in the guilt and strategic questions .

This is a solution from an Israeli perspective .

Whatever Israel is, it has fuck all to do with "western civilisation". It's a vile throwback to the supremacist colonialism of the last two centuries and encompasses what most of the actually civilised world has left behind and declared wrong.

Cabaal

Nodin wrote: »

Secondly, as unlovely as Hamas are, the fact is that Israel is about as democratic and free as Apartheid South Africa. If you were to aquaint yourself with the occupation, you wouldn't give this crap the time of day.

I'm supporting neither side here and I never have,
They are both guilty of some very awful things, neither side is innocent.

My point is claiming the Palestinian's demand freedom isn't thought through by the Irish street protesters who claim it. Its not freedom like they appear to think it is, its very far from it.

Claiming it "might" be like Ireland was after 1922 with the church control and that eventually it might actually get less control and freedom's is a big gamble. Its also something that could take many decades to happen, in the mean time people live under a less the free authority who have no problem jailing people for just being atheists.

Nodin

Cabaal wrote: »

I'm supporting neither side here and I never have,
They are both guilty of some very awful things, neither side is innocent.

My point is claiming the Palestinian's demand freedom isn't thought through by the Irish street protesters who claim it. Its not freedom like they appear to think it is, its very far from it.

Claiming it "might" be like Ireland was after 1922 with the church control and that eventually it might actually get less control and freedom's is a big gamble. Its also something that could take many decades to happen, in the mean time people live under a less the free authority who have no problem jailing people for just being atheists.

The argument that 'the natives can't govern themselves' is older than thee and me put together, and its as invalid now as it was whenever it was first used. You also seem to be making Condells argument by assuming all Palestinians are Islamic fundamentalists, which is far from the case.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

Whatever Israel is, it has fuck all to do with "western civilisation". It's a vile throwback to the supremacist colonialism of the last two centuries and encompasses what most of the actually civilised world has left behind and declared wrong.

And what is Hamas ? Hezbollah, PLO, Black September etc etc . You are judging Israel in a vacuum. Generally speaking adversaries come to reflect each other .

And of course Israel is part of western civilisation , she gets to partake in Eurovision the ultimate badge of inclusion

kylith

Cabaal wrote: »

I'm supporting neither side here and I never have,
They are both guilty of some very awful things, neither side is innocent.

My point is claiming the Palestinian's demand freedom isn't thought through by the Irish street protesters who claim it. Its not freedom like they appear to think it is, its very far from it.

Claiming it "might" be like Ireland was after 1922 with the church control and that eventually it might actually get less control and freedom's is a big gamble. Its also something that could take many decades to happen, in the mean time people live under a less the free authority who have no problem jailing people for just being atheists.

It's their idea of freedom, and they are entitled to have it.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

And what (............)of inclusion

'But what about.....'

Israel is the one colonising outside it's borders since 1967. Israel is the one running a virtual apartheid state in the occupied territories. It's really not a case of 'both as bad as the other'.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

'But what about.....'

Israel is the one colonising outside it's borders since 1967. Israel is the one running a virtual apartheid state in the occupied territories. It's really not a case of 'both as bad as the other'.

Look at the totality if you want an objective view and not one of the pieces in isolation .

Israel sees itself as a country under siege and at war for all of its existence so look at its institution in that light.

SeaBreezes

marienbad wrote: »

Look at the totality if you want an objective view and not one of the pieces in isolation .

Israel sees itself as a country under siege and at war for all of its existence so look at its institution in that light.

We have been seeing the graphic images of the babies massacred with their heads blown off, by this psychopathic government hell bent on the genocide of Palestinians, and the grab of gaza and its gas fields.

All Hamas was requesting was a ceasefire, lift of the blockade and a chance at a life with dignity.

Israel doesnt want that. It wants Gazas gas field and doesnt see the slaughter of thousands of innocents as a problem.

Thats the reality. Look at it in that light..

Brown Bomber

Cabaal wrote: »

Fine, I'll go for everyone else's usage of the word freedom
:rolleyes:.

Freedom?
So Guantanamo has passed you by? Did you know the leader of the "free World" can indefinitely detain any American he wants without charge? Did you know that he can (and has used) the ability to order any American assasinated without trial?

To say that Palestinians don't want freedom is an act of incredible arrogance and pays no attention to the facts.


And what is your evidence? The ugly face of atheism carrying out a racist rant that is inciting racial hatred? That is replete with lies and spin and relies on right-wing Conspiracy sites as sources. Really? What else? A single person being jailed 4 years ago? Have you any sense of perspective or any idea of the decades-long assault on Palestinians freedom? All those Children who have been slaughtered, they have been born into an enforced bondage, suffered all of their short lives in bondage and were butchered in bondage. Your response to this? "but...but...but...what about the atheists?" It's incredible


And you Think his racism and inicitement to racial hatred is "spot on"?

Brown Bomber

Cabaal wrote: »

I'm supporting neither side here and I never have,
They are both guilty of some very awful things, neither side is innocent.

My point is claiming the Palestinian's demand freedom isn't thought through by the Irish street protesters who claim it. Its not freedom like they appear to think it is, its very far from it..

Support your claim. How would Palestinian liberation from Israeli occupation be "very far from" your own definition?


free·dom
[free-duhm] Show IPA
noun
1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3. the power to determine action without restraint.
4. political or national independence.
5. personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery: a slave who bought his freedom.

recedite

Cabaal wrote: »

I don't normally agree with these types of comment videos but this guy isn't far off being spot on. Ok I don't agree with everything but he makes some very valid points none the less that can't be ignored.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ugsv5u-sW0

How is that this claimed freedom that many of the pro Palestine people you see around Dublin talk about?

Mostly this video is mere "whataboutery".
There are a couple of fallacies that stand out, such as the false dichotomy that if Hamas is bad, then Israel must be good. It looks to me more like they are both guilty of terrorist acts.

Also he puts out the notion that arabs in Israel are totally free. Yes, they are free to vote for whoever they want, but political parties that do not support the zionist ideals of "Israel" the jewish state, are banned there.
The equivalent in N.Ireland would be saying that everyone is "free" to vote for a unionist party. Not a great version of "freedom" really. And a political class without proper representation will always be an underclass.

Then there is the nonsense about arabs voluntarily being ethnically cleansed from areas which are now in Israel, and the bizarre claim that those areas were never actually called "Palestine".

Brian Shanahan

Akrasia wrote: »

Without wanting to godwin the argument, but if the Palestinians are expected to live for ever on the borders of Israel in blocaded glorified refugee camps, when the inevitable uprising occors, there will be calls for a more 'final' solution than the one you present.

The deputy leader of the Knesset, a member of Likud (and Netenyahu's seniormost deputy in the party), is already calling for the immediate expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza. And a good part of the ruling coalition is the party of Avigdor Liebermann who wants all Palestinians expelled from both Gaza and the West Bank, and generally acts like Adolf Hitler redux.

The fact of the matter is that there is already a strong current of Nazism in Israeli politics, and soon it will be the dominating current. Unless we do something about it.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

Look at the totality if you want an objective view and not one of the pieces in isolation .

Israel sees itself as a country under siege and at war for all of its existence so look at its institution in that light.

Yes, its under siege while building apartment blocks in occupied territory and beating, torturing and killing the Palestinian population on a regular basis. Pull the other one.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, its under siege while building apartment blocks in occupied territory and beating, torturing and killing the Palestinian population on a regular basis. Pull the other one.

I don't agree with Israeli expansionist policies anymore than you do .but if you don't make some effort to understand their mindset and how we got here then you have very little to offer.

In any case it is probably too late at this stage .

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

I don't agree with Israeli expansionist policies anymore than you do .but if you don't make some effort to understand their mindset and how we got here then you have very little to offer.

In any case it is probably too late at this stage .

For somebody who doesn't agree with it, you seem to have a remarkably watery hostility towards it.


I've always sympathy in regard for the suffering that it took to make a criminal menace, but I'm equally eager to see they're dealt with in a manner that ensures that they can no longer harm others.

Sacksian

recedite wrote: »

Political parties that do not support the zionist ideals of "Israel" the jewish state, are banned there.

I'm pretty sure that there have been attempts to ban parties on the basis that they did not recognise the state of Israel, rather than any attempt to minimise Arab-Israeli participation. That's not particularly strange - similar political parties are banned in other countries (e.g. secessionist parties in Spain) - and, obviously, lots of parties have been banned in less democratic states. But, as it happens, I think most of the attempted bannings were overturned by the Supreme Court.

Rough Sleeper

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Support your claim. How would Palestinian liberation from Israeli occupation be "very far from" your own definition?


free·dom
[free-duhm] Show IPA
noun
1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3. the power to determine action without restraint.
4. political or national independence.
5. personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery: a slave who bought his freedom.

I think it's apparent that he's referring to 2 there. Palestinian women, for example, are not exempt from external control and regulation, and would not be considered "free" by western standards. Of course, I can't really "prove" that this is wrong: all moral systems are based on unproveable axioms and my belief that Palestinian women should enjoy a greater degree of freedom can't be proven any more than my belief that might is not right and Israel have no business building on land that isn't theirs.

Ultimately, while I believe that certain groups in Palestine are badly treated and that it's wrong, I think that this is something they'll have to figure out for themselves. Blasting them into oblivion is a pretty indefensible way to go about it.

Nodin

Sacksian wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that there have been attempts to ban parties on the basis that they did not recognise the state of Israel, rather than any attempt to minimise Arab-Israeli participation. That's not particularly strange - similar political parties are banned in other countries (e.g. secessionist parties in Spain) - and, obviously, lots of parties have been banned in less democratic states. But, as it happens, I think most of the attempted bannings were overturned by the Supreme Court.

There's also the matter of discrimination in housing, education, employment and so on.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

For somebody who doesn't agree with it, you seem to have a remarkably watery hostility towards it.


I've always sympathy in regard for the suffering that it took to make a criminal menace, but I'm equally eager to see they're dealt with in a manner that ensures that they can no longer harm others.

Well you really can't judge my hostility one way or the other , there is a life outside boards.

Sympathy has absolutely to do with it as regards how Israel came to be as she is . And until that is faced head on , everything else is just platitudes that may well make us feel better but have zero effect on the situation.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

Well you really can't judge my hostility one way or the other , there is a life outside boards.
.

I go on what I see here.

marienbad wrote: »

Sympathy has absolutely to do with it as regards how Israel came to be as she is . And until that is faced head on , everything else is just platitudes that may well make us feel better but have zero effect on the situation.

You'll pardon me being more worried about the suffering of the Palestinian people at the hands of Israel than 'her' and 'her' national psychosis.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

I go on what I see here.


You'll pardon me being more worried about the suffering of the Palestinian people at the hands of Israel than 'her' and 'her' national psychosis.

That is your big mistake - they are inextricably linked.

Sacksian

Nodin wrote: »

There's also the matter of discrimination in housing, education, employment and so on.

To be fair, I was talking about the banning of political parties. I was only addressing that specific point. And I'm not trying to defend or mitigate any discrimination that Arab-Israelis face. I've worked with minorities in Ireland (ethnic minorities inc. Travellers) and am very conscious of the effects of discrimination in housing, education and employment that our minorities face. However, minorities within Israel are considered to fare better than any other country in the Middle East.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

That is your big mistake - they are inextricably linked.

In the sense that the mad dog has the small dog by the neck, and that its got to be stopped one way or the other.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

In the sense that the mad dog has the small dog by the neck, and that its got to be stopped one way or the other.

Not the terms I would use but if that makes your feel better , go for it. Won't solve the problem though .

That is if it is not too late to solve it.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

Not the terms I would use but if that makes your feel better , go for it. Won't solve the problem though .

That is if it is not too late to solve it.

Well thankfully more positive and clear minds than some are at work on it.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

Well thankfully more positive and clear minds than some are at work on it.

Yeah, for decades at this stage . Maybe a bit more realism might help .

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

Yeah, for decades at this stage . Maybe a bit more realism might help .

Do please expand.

carpejugulum

marienbad wrote: »

I don't agree with Israeli expansionist policies anymore than you do .but if you don't make some effort to understand their mindset and how we got here then you have very little to offer.

In any case it is probably too late at this stage .

indeed

It seems that the Israeli establishment believes they can make Palestinians be pragmatic and get rid of Hamas by showing them how detrimental Hamas and other Muslim fundamentalists are to their future. That is not going to happen because brainwashed impoverished people don't behave like that.

Nodin wrote: »

I've always sympathy in regard for the suffering

You have ignored all examples of Hamas' war crimes and religious fundamentalism posted here.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

Do please expand.

It probably makes no difference at this stage and the best that we can hope for is that it settles down into a low level conflict for the next 40 or 50 years.

There is no opposition in Israel and any peace movement has been sidelined and put on the defensive . That is the reality.

Any change can only come about from within Israel and as long as even one rocket is fired that possibility is remote to non-existent.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

It probably makes no difference at this stage and the best that we can hope for is that it settles down into a low level conflict for the next 40 or 50 years.

There is no opposition in Israel and any peace movement has been sidelined and put on the defensive . That is the reality.

Any change can only come about from within Israel and as long as even one rocket is fired that possibility is remote to non-existent.

Apathetic bollocksology. Apartheid South Africa would still be in existence if that kind of thinking prevailed. That being said, when somebody states that Israel is "a part of the fabric of western civilisation" it doesn't surprise me they show no great urgency in putting a halter on it.

obplayer

Nodin wrote: »

Well thankfully more positive and clear minds than some are at work on it.

Like the people who are preparing and launching this rocket?
Non-IDF link and article by the way.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-571033

Nodin

obplayer wrote: »

Like the people who are preparing and launching this rocket?
Non-IDF link and article by the way.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-571033

Hamas firing a rocket counters the reality of Israeli expansionism how exactly?

obplayer

Nodin wrote: »

Hamas firing a rocket counters the reality of Israeli expansionism how exactly?

The question is 'how clear are the minds which are arming and firing a rocket from a residential area knowing how Israel will respond'?

Nodin

obplayer wrote: »

The question is 'how clear are the minds which are arming and firing a rocket from a residential area knowing how Israel will respond'?

So its back to "but Hamas.....". I remember when it used be "but Arafat". Gas.

Presumably they take the view that whatever their actions might cause, at least they aren't being colonised and squeezed out like the population in the West Bank.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

Apathetic bollocksology. Apartheid South Africa would still be in existence if that kind of thinking prevailed. That being said, when somebody states that Israel is "a part of the fabric of western civilisation" it doesn't surprise me they show no great urgency in putting a halter on it.

Sorry Nodin , this is just self righteous venting. To compare this to South Africa is just an easy way out. And the history of the Jews and Israel is inextricably linked with and part of western civilisation . Even the most cursory reading of history shows that. And if it wasn't the problem wouldn't have arisen and persisted in the first place.

And by the way stop equating a pragmatic reading as approval .

As I have already said anger and indignation is not an argument . So what do you think will happen as opposed to what should happen ?

Do you think there is anything from the other side that could be done to help break the impasse ?

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

Sorry Nodin , this is just self righteous venting.?

More crap? There's a two tier justice system, different levels of access to resources, checkpoints, even settler only roads. I'm far from the first or the only one to make the comparsion

marienbad wrote: »

. And the history of the Jews and Israel is inextricably linked with and part of western civilisation . Even the most cursory reading of history shows that. And if it wasn't the problem wouldn't have arisen and persisted in the first place..

Connecting the 19th century throwback of modern Israel to modern western civilisation is a bad joke.

marienbad wrote: »

And by the way stop equating a pragmatic reading as approval . ?

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the
side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a
mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your
neutrality.

Desmond Tutu. Who, coincidentally, feels the Apartheid comparsion apt too.

marienbad wrote: »

Do you think there is anything from the other side that could be done to help break the impasse ?

How could there be?

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

More crap? There's a two tier justice system, different levels of access to resources, checkpoints, even settler only roads. I'm far from the first or the only one to make the comparsion



Connecting the 19th century throwback of modern Israel to modern western civilisation is a bad joke.




Desmond Tutu. Who, coincidentally, feels the Apartheid comparsion apt too.



How could there be?

So you have no suggestions then ? Israel all bad - everyone else all good ?

Good luck with that . Is it surprising the Israelis trust only themselves ?

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

So you have no suggestions then ? Israel all bad - everyone else all good ??

You seem to be under the delusion that its some sort of 50/50 level playing field. It isn't.

marienbad wrote: »

Good luck with that . Is it surprising the Israelis trust only themselves ?

Given the protection of the US, they only have to listen to themselves, and therein lies much of the problem.

tayto lover

marienbad wrote: »

So you have no suggestions then ? Israel all bad - everyone else all good ?

Good luck with that . Is it surprising the Israelis trust only themselves ?

If it wasn't for their cozy relationship with the U.S. where would they be?

It is that relationship that keeps them safe but that doesn't make anything right.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

You seem to be under the delusion that its some sort of 50/50 level playing field. It isn't.



Given the protection of the US, they only have to listen to themselves, and therein lies much of the problem.

What relevance has the equilibrium of the playing field got to do with anything , or the support of the US for that matter ?

This is just more venting at the 'unfairness' of it all , but does not move one inch closer to a solution .

We could discuss that it was not always so one sided and I doubt that there would have been too much mercy on offer . The past reflects the present and unless something changes will reflect the future.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

What relevance has the equilibrium of the playing field got to do with anything , or the support of the US for that matter ? .

Because the Palestinian side is (a) wronged and (b) over a barrel.

The US is the only reason Israel isn't an international pariah.

marienbad wrote: »

We could discuss that it was not always so one sided and I doubt that there would have been too much mercy on offer . The past reflects the present and unless something changes will reflect the future.

Windy guff.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

Because the Palestinian side is (a) wronged and (b) over a barrel.

The US is the only reason Israel isn't an international pariah.



Windy guff.

With due respect Nodin , try answering and less of the insults .

We live in a world where depending on your reading there are loads victims over a barrel . So what ??

And so what if the US is the reason Israel isn't a pariah ( not that I agree with that) .

Deal with the facts as they are and you might advance your position , otherwise you are just tilting at windmills .

Never, ever underestimate the power of a little bit of pragmatism . In this case though I suspect it is too late .

I ask you again though, is there anything the other side could do to move the process forward ?

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

We live in a world where depending on your reading there are loads victims over a barrel . So what ?? ?

O that makes everything ok then. We might as well close this forum while we're at it. Kids being molest, women abused, no bother, sure others have it hard too.

marienbad wrote: »

And so what if the US is the reason Israel isn't a pariah ( not that I agree with that) .?

It's US pressure that stops EU sanctions, its the US veto that protects it from the UN.

marienbad wrote: »

Deal with the facts as they are and you might advance your position , otherwise you are just tilting at windmills ..

The facts are that Israel has been illegally colonising the occupied territories. Dealing with that is the issue.

marienbad wrote: »

I ask you again though, is there anything the other side could do to move the process forward ?

How? They're powerless. Mobilising international support for BDS, perhaps aquiring anti-tank mines and anti vehicle shoulder mounted weaponry.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

O that makes everything ok then. We might as well close this forum while we're at it. Kids being molest, women abused, no bother, sure others have it hard too.


It's US pressure that stops EU sanctions, its the US veto that protects it from the UN.


The facts are that Israel has been illegally colonising the occupied territories. Dealing with that is the issue.



How? They're powerless. Mobilising international support for BDS, perhaps aquiring anti-tank mines and anti vehicle shoulder mounted weaponry.

How about not firing rockets ?