Liverpool Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014 - Mod Note in OP 28/8

Devilman40k

Kess73 wrote: »

Just saw a stat bomb comparison of Johnson from last season versus Johnson from the 09/10 season. Is up on a couple of fan sites, so thought I would grab it and pop it up here.


Mad drop off in most areas.





http://www.statsbomb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Glen-Johnson-10vs14.png

I can understand the drop off in crossing stats...we play a very different type of game now, but the drop off in tackles, key passes and interceptions is shocking!

Augmerson

Kess73 wrote: »

Just saw a stat bomb comparison of Johnson from last season versus Johnson from the 09/10 season. Is up on a couple of fan sites, so thought I would grab it and pop it up here.


Mad drop off in most areas.





http://www.statsbomb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Glen-Johnson-10vs14.png

Mein Gott. What has happened to him.

dogbert27

Augmerson wrote: »

Mein Gott. What has happened to him.

I think a combination of age and being too comfortable as first choice!

Anyone

dogbert27 wrote: »

I think a combination of age and being too comfortable as first choice!

He hasnt been the same since he started doing Math.

ThunbergsAreGo

Devilman40k wrote: »

I can understand the drop off in crossing stats...we play a very different type of game now, but the drop off in tackles, key passes and interceptions is shocking!

Isnt it percentage complete in the crosses though? Despite what type of game we are playng that crossing stat is dreadful

Kirby

Devilman40k wrote: »

I can understand the drop off in crossing stats...we play a very different type of game now, but the drop off in tackles, key passes and interceptions is shocking!

This is only part of it.

Most of it is the fact that Johnson wants to cut inside so much and take his man on....which usually results in him losing the ball, or being stalled by a defender and having to pass it back. He used to cross in that position occasionally. Not anymore.

sweetie

Aye Johnson's game has really gone down the toilet

Milkers

Man City have been experimenting during preseason with Clichy at RB to provide cover and options for them in the full back position. I believe he's done pretty well there. If we sign Moreno any chance we could try him down the right and Enrique/Flan on the left?

Agent Coulson

Milkers wrote: »

Man City have been experimenting during preseason with Clichy at RB to provide cover and options for them in the full back position. I believe he's done pretty well there. If we sign Moreno any chance we could try him down the right and Enrique/Flan on the left?

Flanagan is a natural right back why swap him to the left and Moreno who is a natural left back to the right.

Just have Flanagan as the right back or cover for Johnson.

Edit; Moreno would have enough to deal with settling into a new team, league and country to be played out od position would be a step to far for me.

MR NINE

If moreno signs we'll be sorted for lb for the coming season, and with the addition of lovren we now have cb sorted imo. Right back however is still a very underwhelming set up. I dont know anything about Manquillo, and I won't say hes a bad signing as he could be an excellent prospect for all i know, but the player only has a handful of games in professional first team football as far as im aware. Hes hardly ready to go straight into the first team for a season of first team football, and it seems unlikely we'll be pursuing another right back so I think its all but confirmed we're in for another year of Glen ****ing Johnson. Rodgers must surely realise how **** Johnson has been for over two years now, and hes shown he can be a fairly ruthless coach when it comes to axing people so I'm really curious as to what he really thinks of Johnson, does he think hes a good player capable of holding down the right back position for a team challenging for leagues and champions leagues or does he feel he needs to be upgraded just not as urgently as some of us, or does he think hes ****e, like most of us do.

I also dont understand this manquillo deal at all. A two year loan with an option to buy for 6 million but atletico also have an option to keep him if they are happy with how he has progressed. Is that not basically a two year loan with an option at the end only if Atletico have decided hes ****?

Kess73

Kirby wrote: »

This is only part of it.

Most of it is the fact that Johnson wants to cut inside so much and take his man on....which usually results in him losing the ball, or being stalled by a defender and having to pass it back. He used to cross in that position occasionally. Not anymore.

Funnily enough he has not gone backwards at all in terms of losing the ball. He has actually improved slightly on that score.


The very substantial drop off in things like successful tackles and interceptions is eyecatching though.

klose

MR NINE wrote: »

I also dont understand this manquillo deal at all. A two year loan with an option to buy for 6 million but atletico also have an option to keep him if they are happy with how he has progressed. Is that not basically a two year loan with an option at the end only if Atletico have decided hes ****?

By all accounts he is highly rated but simeone rarely, if ever rotates and certainly not in defence if he does not have to. Juanfran is also a brilliant rb already so game time is sparse, they will use alderweireld as back up in any case. I doubt they will recall him tbh. Some are reporting a 1 year loan, others a 2 year loan.

Kess73

MR NINE wrote: »

If moreno signs we'll be sorted for lb for the coming season, and with the addition of lovren we now have cb sorted imo. Right back however is still a very underwhelming set up. I dont know anything about Manquillo, and I won't say hes a bad signing as he could be an excellent prospect for all i know, but the player only has a handful of games in professional first team football as far as im aware. Hes hardly ready to go straight into the first team for a season of first team football, and it seems unlikely we'll be pursuing another right back so I think its all but confirmed we're in for another year of Glen ****ing Johnson. Rodgers must surely realise how **** Johnson has been for over two years now, and hes shown he can be a fairly ruthless coach when it comes to axing people so I'm really curious as to what he really thinks of Johnson, does he think hes a good player capable of holding down the right back position for a team challenging for leagues and champions leagues or does he feel he needs to be upgraded just not as urgently as some of us, or does he think hes ****e, like most of us do.

I also dont understand this manquillo deal at all. A two year loan with an option to buy for 6 million but atletico also have an option to keep him if they are happy with how he has progressed. Is that not basically a two year loan with an option at the end only if Atletico have decided hes ****?

Might be Rodgers' intention to avoid making too many changes to the back four for the first half of this season.

If one from Johnson or Flanagan do not start the season, and we get Moreno for the LB slot, then we potentially could be starting the season with three players in the backline who are brand new to the club.

The thinking may be to let Johnson play for a move (he can sign a pre agreement with another club in January) and then either have Flanagan step up or bring in a new RB in Janaury/next summer.

Johnson has slipped badly by his standards, quite a lot when one considers he is only 29 (30 later this month), but he has been a good head to have had at the club and hope that when he does go that he get a really good send off.

NyOmnishambles

Fescue wrote: »

If I was nit picking I would have said that Sutton scored 22 goals during the 2 years he played with Shearer and 35 the following two years.

True but it is Plausible to say that if Sutton had remained playing with Shearer that his potential goal return could have been a lot higher :pac:

Vicxas

SSN Saying the Moreno deal is as good as done.


This pleases me of a Friday.

NEDDURC

Kess73 wrote: »

Might be Rodgers' intention to avoid making too many changes to the back four for the first half of this season.

If one from Johnson or Flanagan do not start the season, and we get Moreno for the LB slot, then we potentially could be starting the season with three players in the backline who are brand new to the club.

The thinking may be to let Johnson play for a move (he can sign a pre agreement with another club in January) and then either have Flanagan step up or bring in a new RB in Janaury/next summer.

Johnson has slipped badly by his standards, quite a lot when one considers he is only 29 (30 later this month), but he has been a good head to have had at the club and hope that when he does go that he get a really good send off.

I think Johnson could be on his way out this window. If we sign Manquillo we'll have 4 right backs. One will have to go (at least on loan). I think it'll be Johnson but could be Kelly.

Kelly would be a good signing for someone I reckon. A run of games and he could rediscover his form. Would make sense to loan him out to someone and then sell him when he's proven his fitness.

Morzadec

From what I've seen of Moreno he looks a very very different type of fullback to Enrique. Very much the modern day pacy wing fullback.

I like that. It gives us some different options. I still rate Enrique very highly and would see him as the safe option of the two. Certain games may require Enrique's strength, height, composure and defensive solidity over Moreno's all-action, fast paced, attacking game.

So we should have options and cover here.

If both impress you might even see the odd game where Moreno plays ahead of him out wide in an attacking left wing role. Might be an option in tough European away games perhaps

Speak Now

Small sample size I know but I think Sturridge scored 11 goals during Suarez 10 match ban. Still would be nice to have another proven goalscorer apart from Lambert who is going to be of a squad player than a regular starter.

I am pie

MR NINE wrote: »

If moreno signs we'll be sorted for lb for the coming season, and with the addition of lovren we now have cb sorted imo. Right back however is still a very underwhelming set up. I dont know anything about Manquillo, and I won't say hes a bad signing as he could be an excellent prospect for all i know, but the player only has a handful of games in professional first team football as far as im aware. Hes hardly ready to go straight into the first team for a season of first team football, and it seems unlikely we'll be pursuing another right back so I think its all but confirmed we're in for another year of Glen ****ing Johnson. Rodgers must surely realise how **** Johnson has been for over two years now, and hes shown he can be a fairly ruthless coach when it comes to axing people so I'm really curious as to what he really thinks of Johnson, does he think hes a good player capable of holding down the right back position for a team challenging for leagues and champions leagues or does he feel he needs to be upgraded just not as urgently as some of us, or does he think hes ****e, like most of us do.

I also dont understand this manquillo deal at all. A two year loan with an option to buy for 6 million but atletico also have an option to keep him if they are happy with how he has progressed. Is that not basically a two year loan with an option at the end only if Atletico have decided hes ****?

If Flanagan maintains his form we have a very solid option at RB with him.

Kess73

NEDDURC wrote: »

I think Johnson could be on his way out this window. If we sign Manquillo we'll have 4 right backs. One will have to go (at least on loan). I think it'll be Johnson but could be Kelly.

Kelly would be a good signing for someone I reckon. A run of games and he could rediscover his form. Would make sense to loan him out to someone and then sell him when he's proven his fitness.

If we get Manquillo then I don't see him being the signing that pushes Johnson down the pecking order/out the door. Maybe he will be a good player in time, but right now he is surely the inexperienced player that his game time suggests he is.


Kelly I think has been ruined by his injuries (at least in terms of his Liverpool career). He is 24 now and when one looks at other players that age at the club (Sakho, Sturridge, Henderson, Allen etc) then it really stands out how big an impact those injuries have had on Kelly's development. Maybe he will come come elsewhere, but cannot see it ever happening at LFC. Is a shame really because at one point I really thought he was ready to make the jump up in class and push Johnson out of the team.

Do think that if we have more of the Southampton FC vouchers that Barca gave us for Suarez left, that Clyne could be a good shout. He is quick, strong, hard to knock off the ball, and seems to have a bit of that mongrel attitude that I like to see in defensive players. Plus he would be a natural fit to put into a back line with Lovern given they have had plenty of shared time on the pitch and on the training ground.

Augmerson

Kess73 wrote: »

Funnily enough he has not gone backwards at all in terms of losing the ball. He has actually improved slightly on that score.


The very substantial drop off in things like successful tackles and interceptions is eyecatching though.

Do you think that it's down to concentration?

rob316

Milkers wrote: »

Man City have been experimenting during preseason with Clichy at RB to provide cover and options for them in the full back position. I believe he's done pretty well there. If we sign Moreno any chance we could try him down the right and Enrique/Flan on the left?

Why spend £20m on a young left back and stick him on the wrong side
Why not just buy a RB so?

Kess73

Augmerson wrote: »

Do you think that it's down to concentration?

No idea to be honest. Don't think it is concentration though.

It should not be age, and the guy usually looks like he is in very good shape.

My guess is that he is in a similar boat to Lucas. In that his various injuries all took away from him, and although he can be fully fit he is just that bit off what he used to be, and that bit off other top players in terms of reflexes, mobility and what not.

Now I don't think his injuries have had quite as bad an effect as those of Lucas, but do think that may be what it is with him.

Think Johnson going in a straight line is fine as he has the pace and strength to go at most players, but think that maybe when put on the back foot his reflexes and reactions are that fraction of a second slower and it is enough to make the difference between winning a ball and a player taking/putting the ball past him.

MR NINE

Kess73 wrote: »

Might be Rodgers' intention to avoid making too many changes to the back four for the first half of this season.

If one from Johnson or Flanagan do not start the season, and we get Moreno for the LB slot, then we potentially could be starting the season with three players in the backline who are brand new to the club.

The thinking may be to let Johnson play for a move (he can sign a pre agreement with another club in January) and then either have Flanagan step up or bring in a new RB in Janaury/next summer.

Johnson has slipped badly by his standards, quite a lot when one considers he is only 29 (30 later this month), but he has been a good head to have had at the club and hope that when he does go that he get a really good send off.

It would make sense alright if Rodgers didnt want to overhaul the entire backline in one fell swoop, however Johnson is the weak link at the moment, he's the one who should be ditched from the starting 11 before Skrtel, Enrique or Flanagan.

The bolded part highlights my point that the Manquillo signing is a strange one in that it doesn't address the issue.

I am pie wrote: »

If Flanagan maintains his form we have a very solid option at RB with him.

Flanagan could be a good option but im not sure hes ready for a full season as a starting full back champions league and all. I think he still has a lot to learn and would be better off playing 20 to 30 games as cover for both full back positions. Id like to be wrong, and I was impressed by him last season, Id just feel better if we had an experienced and competent right back at the club rather than relying on two kids and glen johnson.

Kess73 wrote: »

If we get Manquillo then I don't see him being the signing that pushes Johnson down the pecking order/out the door. Maybe he will be a good player in time, but right now he is surely the inexperienced player that his game time suggests he is.

This is exactly my issue, I want a player who WILL push glen johnson out the door. Instead Manquillo seems like a player who'll compete with Flanagan for back up gametime. I would be a lot happier if we signed a right back who was ready to be first choice and used Flanagan as back up, rather than sticking with a fairly useless right back and having two youngsters as back up whereby at
least one of them will struggle to get the necessary game time required to help them develop

MD1990

Moreno is exactly what we were missing against a packed defence like in the Chelsea game. Vital to have an a quality overlaping full back to stretch defences.

NEDDURC

Kess73 wrote: »

If we get Manquillo then I don't see him being the signing that pushes Johnson down the pecking order/out the door. Maybe he will be a good player in time, but right now he is surely the inexperienced player that his game time suggests he is.


Kelly I think has been ruined by his injuries (at least in terms of his Liverpool career). He is 24 now and when one looks at other players that age at the club (Sakho, Sturridge, Henderson, Allen etc) then it really stands out how big an impact those injuries have had on Kelly's development. Maybe he will come come elsewhere, but cannot see it ever happening at LFC. Is a shame really because at one point I really thought he was ready to make the jump up in class and push Johnson out of the team.

Do think that if we have more of the Southampton FC vouchers that Barca gave us for Suarez left, that Clyne could be a good shout. He is quick, strong, hard to knock off the ball, and seems to have a bit of that mongrel attitude that I like to see in defensive players. Plus he would be a natural fit to put into a back line with Lovern given they have had plenty of shared time on the pitch and on the training ground.

I'm not saying Manquillo will come in as no.1 and push Johnson out. But 4 right backs is nuts and would seem to go against all the FSG are doing in terms of decreasing the wage bill and lowering the average age of the team. On that basis, Johnson being the oldest and highest paid and nearing the end of his contract all point to the right time to sell him. 'Arry at QPR could get a decent right back for cheap if he's interested.

As I've said already, Flanagan looks to be growing in confidence. He seems to have the right blend of speed to attack and defend. If Johnson goes, then keep Kelly as the experienced backup until Maquillo settles in.

Devilman40k

NEDDURC wrote: »

As I've said already, Flanagan looks to be growing in confidence. He seems to have the right blend of speed to attack and defend. If Johnson goes, then keep Kelly as the experienced backup until Maquillo settles in.

I wouldn't be trusting Kelly as backup to be honest. He's more likely to be injured than on the bench unfortunately.

I do think that Johnson has to go (I don't think he can recapture his form)...but it may well be the January window before that happens

Boom_Bap

On Johnson, I don't think that he is a new-age style of full back. If a flat back 4, he's great. In a back 4 where he is asked to push forward, no problem.
But, when it comes to a rotating defense, particularly with the splitting of the centre halves and Gerrard dropping in, that moves him to being a winger in spells, and with the 3 rotating forwards it requires smart decisions in the top third.
I just dont think that he is capable of that.....or with his in and outs with injury has not allowed him to fully adapt.
Rather than playing football naturally, he needs to think alot more on the pitch.
Maybe with a good pre-season under his belt, and a good run in the team, this positioning may come more natural.
I think the tackling stats are mentioned earlier are more of a reflectin of the change in the style of football, rather them him not tackling....he doesnt need to tackle as much.

.....whether this new kid can do it, I dont know.

But, Flanagan certainly can, I seen him popping into the #10 position a few times last year on account of th eposition interchanges.

Kess73

NEDDURC wrote: »

I'm not saying Manquillo will come in as no.1 and push Johnson out. But 4 right backs is nuts and would seem to go against all the FSG are doing in terms of decreasing the wage bill and lowering the average age of the team. On that basis, Johnson being the oldest and highest paid and nearing the end of his contract all point to the right time to sell him. 'Arry at QPR could get a decent right back for cheap if he's interested.

As I've said already, Flanagan looks to be growing in confidence. He seems to have the right blend of speed to attack and defend. If Johnson goes, then keep Kelly as the experienced backup until Maquillo settles in.

Think Kelly will be first out the door myself if an offer comes in.

If a new Number one RB does not come in, then I see us starting with Johnson as the first choice, and Flanagan taking Kelly's back up slot, and Manquillo taking Flanagan's old back up to the back up slot.

And if Wisdom had not gone out on loan to West Brom, then I would have expected Kelly to have been ever further down the list this season.

Kimbot

In May didnt Rodgers come out and say that Kelly will get more game time this year?

Bowlardo

we seriously need to off load a lot of players off the books.
Is assaidi gone yet?

Vicxas

Bowlardo wrote: »

we seriously need to off load a lot of players off the books.
Is assaidi gone yet?

He was meant to be off to Stoke, and the Borini deal is back on it seems.

MR NINE

Vicxas wrote: »

He was meant to be off to Stoke, and the Borini deal is back on it seems.

I think im in the minority in wanting borini to stay. We do have a lot of players that could/should be offloaded in the coming weeks, but were fairly light on mumbers up front at the moment, and even though were probably gonna be bringing in another attacking option, I still think its a good idea to keep borini. If we sell him now we risk the possibility of going into the new season with Sturridge and Lambert as our only forwards.

fred funk }{

Bowlardo wrote: »

we seriously need to off load a lot of players off the books.
Is assaidi gone yet?

I think if we do sign the players we want we'll see a mass exodus. No point in selling until we have their replacement signed.

Pilsbury Doughboy

Any chance we can have the Moreno v Shaw debate again? That was an absolute doooozie!

Vicxas

Pilsbury Doughboy wrote: »

Any chance we can have the Moreno v Shaw debate again? That was an absolute doooozie!

Moreno > Shaw.


Discuss

tok9

Well Moreno has better hair

Jako8

Someone found Jordan Henderson's Bebo Account. Give him your luvs, lads.

mosstin

MR NINE wrote: »

I think im in the minority in wanting borini to stay. We do have a lot of players that could/should be offloaded in the coming weeks, but were fairly light on mumbers up front at the moment, and even though were probably gonna be bringing in another attacking option, I still think its a good idea to keep borini. If we sell him now we risk the possibility of going into the new season with Sturridge and Lambert as our only forwards.

Keeping Borini isn't going to improve him as a player or us as a team. There is no way the club will leave us with just Sturridge and Lambert as our only striking options. Hasn't worked for him or the club - thanks and goodbye.

Bowlardo

So who would be out the door?
Reina, Kelly, toure, Agger, Lucas, Assaidi, Borini

Vicxas

Jako8 wrote: »

Someone found Jordan Henderson's Bebo Account. Give him your luvs, lads.

Oh, the embarrassment!

MonkeyTennis

Thats ace

Harry Palmr

Manquillo (loan)---- 2m
Lambert

---

4m
Origi

---

6.5m (now)
Can

---

9.8m
Lovren

---

20m
Moreno (nearly)

---

20m
Lallana

---

22m
Markovic

---

19.8m
_________________104.1m

Suarez

---

70m
+others

---

30m
Capital

---

60m
_________________160 m

Offski from Borini, Assiadi, Lucas, Agger, Toure, Kelly, Coates Coady and Reina. Hard to imagine all the defenders will go even if one can make a case for each not being good enough. I've underlined the ones I think will go.

Kess73

MR NINE wrote: »

I think im in the minority in wanting borini to stay. We do have a lot of players that could/should be offloaded in the coming weeks, but were fairly light on mumbers up front at the moment, and even though were probably gonna be bringing in another attacking option, I still think its a good idea to keep borini. If we sell him now we risk the possibility of going into the new season with Sturridge and Lambert as our only forwards.

Would be with you on Borini. I rate him, but he is reaching a point where, if he stays, that he has to start finding the net for us.

Do think that if he were played up front that his postioning and movement would see him gobble up a number of the chances we create.

Having said that, if we can get 14 million for him and have some top attacking quality lined up to buy, then I would be be ok with him being moved on.

But no way should he be sold if we don't bring in at least one more proper forward.

NEDDURC

Would be great if you could get a young player to come through in the striker position.

Who'd be the closest if we were stuck?

Sinclair and Yesil were once considered possibilities?!

Augmerson

NEDDURC wrote: »

Would be great if you could get a young player to come through in the striker position.

Who'd be the closest if we were stuck?

Sinclair and Yesil were once considered possibilities?!

Think Yesil got injured too much, ACL? Was he supposed to go on loan to Turkey?

MR NINE

mosstin wrote: »

Keeping Borini isn't going to improve him as a player or us as a team. There is no way the club will leave us with just Sturridge and Lambert as our only striking options. Hasn't worked for him or the club - thanks and goodbye.

The club left us with just Suarez and Borini two years ago, theres certainly a chance it could happen again. If we bring in another body or two up front then fair enough celebrate his departure if youre not a fan of him, but whilst we only have two other forwards I won't be too happy to see him leave

Harry Palmr

NEDDURC wrote: »

Would be great if you could get a young player to come through in the striker position.

Who'd be the closest if we were stuck?

Sinclair and Yesil were once considered possibilities?!

Liverpool have no strikers! Yesil isn't ready, as he has to prove he can get back at any kind of real progress in the game, Sinclair is an U18s player, everyone else has been sold or released (Ngoo, Morgan, Bijev, Hodžić). Ibe is not a striker as judged by the Coutinho-esque shooting!

Morzadec

If we can't find another option then id rather we kept Borini. Otherwise we will be light and Borini has the advantage of being able to fill in out wide or as a centre forward. But we really should be able to find another option.

If you were asking me to spend 6m outkay and have Borini out and Bony in, or just keep Borini then im definitely going for the first option

It's a nice situation to be in anyway. Either we get a player who is hard working versatile and can pop up with a goal or two, or he funds the large part of a move for a centre forward of Rodgers preference

MR NINE

Kess73 wrote: »

Would be with you on Borini. I rate him, but he is reaching a point where, if he stays, that he has to start finding the net for us.

Do think that if he were played up front that his postioning and movement would see him gobble up a number of the chances we create.

Having said that, if we can get 14 million for him and have some top attacking quality lined up to buy, then I would be be ok with him being moved on.

But no way should he be sold if we don't bring in at least one more proper forward.

I think im in the minority, but I dont particularly rate Rickie Lambert and would rather see Borini starting games ahead of him. I agree this season would probably be his last chance to make an impact for liverpool but in all fairness hes barely had his first chance to make an impact for Liverpoo, hes only started five league games for liverpool, and they were the five opening games of Rodgers first campaign where the team struggled and we faced some tough opposition. Axeing Borini and bringing in Lambert is similar to Chelseas decision to axe lukaku and bring in Drogba except its far less profitable. It feels like a short sighted move.