Liverpool Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014 - Mod Note in OP 28/8

Mr Alan

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Have you seen Sakho in anything other than a Liverpool shirt?

Lovren, last season, was better than anything I have seen from Skrtel or Agger in years.

I couldn't give ****e about anything that happens to Sakho, Lovern, Agger or Skrtel when they're not in a Liverpool shirt

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

I wait with bated breath for this article which doesn't exist.

Article been posted below. Awaiting an apology which won't arrive.

K-9 wrote: »

Think it was posted on here that he'd a poor enough first half of the season but was very good the second half.

This is it. My point remains the same. The rest of the PL is hardly quaking in it's boots upon his signing. Hopefully it works out, but I was hoping for more ambition in this window.

noodler

Mr Alan wrote: »

Sakho and Lovern have never played a match together.

They've never even trained together.

They might turn out to be our best combo, getting rid of Agger or Skrtel before Lovern/Sakho together have even taken the field would be lunacy.

You are 100% correct on this.

However, the first port of call if you are Rodgers, imo anyway, is to pair your two best defenders together and that is more than likely Sakho and Lovren - we can deal with it later on and use the other options if it does not work.

Getting rid of Toure makes no sense to me due to the lack of transfer fee and his willinginess to stay benched. Skrtel and Agger are too valuable transfer wise to stay and one has to go. I think Skrtel was better than Agger last season but Agger has always been extremely marketable due to his ability on the ball.

Mr Alan

Underpaid Mike wrote: »

Moreno has never played for Liverpool does that mean he should not be our first choice FB if we sign him?

No. But it means we shouldn't flog Enrique and assume it's all going to work out rosey when our squad and first team competition is stronger by keeping Enrique.

You following me now?

Mr Alan

noodler wrote: »

You are 100% correct on this.

However, the first port of call if you are Rodgers, imo anyway, is to pair your two best defenders together and that is more than likely Sakho and Lovren - we can deal with it later on and use the other options if it does not work.

Getting rid of Toure makes no sense to me due to the lack of transfer fee and his willinginess to stay benched. Skrtel and Agger are too valuable transfer wise to stay and one has to go. I think Skrtel was better than Agger last season but Agger has always been extremely marketable due to his ability on the ball.

I'd agree with you entirely if I we were talking about one new defender with question marks over them. But we're not, for me Sakho still has big question marks over him. So I'd keep Skrtel & Agger until Jan and then make a call. Lovern & Sakho start the season, but if they're struggling we need as strong a backup option as possible.

the kelt

Decided to do a quick look at the stats, damned lies and statistics!

Conceding goals is too simplistic a comparison, players dont concede goals, teams do. You cant lay the blame of conceding a goal on 1 or 2 players. I believe when it came to minutes played together and goals conceded Agger and Toure were our best partnership for example. What i looked at was defensive errors being errors that lead to a shot on goal or a goal, all of these premiership games (this doesnt include own goals)

Its funny but Toure is seen as our weakest centre half, yet he made exactly as many appearances as Agger last season and had exactly the same amount of defensive errors as Agger. Both had 3 errors in 20 games.

Skertl had 4 in 36 games while Sakho had 2 in 18 games. So basically Skertl and Sakho had one error every 9 games compared to Toure and Agger with one every 6.5 games roughly.

On top of that Lovren actually had 1 error in 31 games which is quite interesting.

When it came to defensive duels Sakho, Agger and Skertl are almost identical at 59%/60% and 60% respectively. Toure was down on 52% with Lovren up there also at 58%

And then passing which is essential for a Rodgers team Sakho was top at 92% completion rate, Skertl had 91% while Agger had 89% with Toure at 86%. This is where Lovren will need to improve at 82%.

So basically Lovren is up there with our current centre backs in everything but passing but crucially makes far fewer mistakes than any of our current centre backs based on last season stats.

Dickerty

Underpaid Mike wrote: »

Both Sterling and Coutinho both had significant dips in form last season, especially Coutinho.
They, like Markovic, are U21 is that not 100% expected ?
Criticising what is in effect a youth player for a dip in form is beyond outrageous

Particularly when you aer expected to play 49 games in the season. He will play a lot less than that this time around.

My team for Dortmund -

---

Migs

---

Flanno--Skrtel--Sakho--Jose

---

Stevie

---

---

Hendo

---

Can

---

--Raheem

---

Lil'Phil---

---

Sturridge

---

Bring on Kelly, Lovren, Coates, Lucas, Allen, Ibe, Makovic and Lambert on 60 mins. I think the above team should start v Southampton, so that has to be the focus. I don't think Lovren will start unless he is exceptional this week in training, and looks comfortable next to Sakho...

tok9

You have to laugh... Alan you were completely wrong on what you said about Markovic yet still claim your point remains.

Underpaid Mike

Mr Alan wrote: »

This is it. My point remains the same. The rest of the PL is hardly quaking in it's boots upon his signing. Hopefully it works out, but I was hoping for more ambition in this window.

Hang on a minute here, because he wasnt playing with a huge club and didnt come for a big fee then he is not potentially a great signing? Are you actually serious. Id love to have seen your reaction last year when we signed coutinho, sturridge etc. :eek::rolleyes::eek:

Mr Alan wrote: »

No. But it means we shouldn't flog Enrique and assume it's all going to work out rosey when our squad and first team competition is stronger by keeping Enrique.

You following me now?

Yes im following you now. Thanks for explaining it to me :eek::rolleyes:

Hoki

Dickerty wrote: »

Particularly when you aer expected to play 49 games in the season. He will play a lot less than that this time around.

My team for Dortmund -

---

Migs

---

Flanno--Skrtel--Sakho--Jose

---

Stevie

---

---

Hendo

---

Can

---

--Raheem

---

Lil'Phil---

---

Sturridge

---

Bring on Kelly, Lovren, Coates, Lucas, Allen, Ibe, Makovic and Lambert on 60 mins. I think the above team should start v Southampton, so that has to be the focus. I don't think Lovren will start unless he is exceptional this week in training, and looks comfortable next to Sakho...

I too think we'll start the team thats going to start against Southampton a week later , whatever that may be , then make the substitutions in the second half.

Vinz Mesrine

Mr Alan wrote: »

Article been posted below. Awaiting an apology which won't arrive.



This is it. My point remains the same. The rest of the PL is hardly quaking in it's boots upon his signing. Hopefully it works out, but I was hoping for more ambition in this window.

That article completely goes against what you said and you want an apology hahaha.

Devilman40k

On Agger...if that article is true we are arguing over a moot point. If Agger wants to leave let him go. He deserves first team football, IMO I don't think he's in our best 3 CB's, but he's too good to be on the bench week in week out. At that stage it's time to cash in...

Harry Palmr

Well that was entertaining and a distraction from the Falcao loan rumour.

Whoops.

Mr Alan

the kelt wrote: »

I believe when it came to minutes played together and goals conceded Agger and Toure were our best partnership for example.

A tiny amount of minutes together no doubt, unlikely to be statistically relevant.

the kelt wrote:

Its funny but Toure is seen as our weakest centre half, yet he made exactly as many appearances as Agger last season and had exactly the same amount of defensive errors as Agger. Both had 3 errors in 20 games.

Again, the same amount of appearances but significantly less minutes for Toure, right?

Either you don't get it or you're intentionally trying to muddy the waters.

Vicxas

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Well that was entertaining and a distraction from the Falcao loan rumour.

Whoops.

If he stays fit its a great move.

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

This is it. My point remains the same. The rest of the PL is hardly quaking in it's boots upon his signing. Hopefully it works out, but I was hoping for more ambition in this window.

The point of transfers isn't to scare the other PL teams. Coutinho and Sturridge were two of our best signings of the past few years. They were hardly leaving the rest of the PL quaking in their boots. Markovic has been called one of the best talents in Europe, I don't think it's just a punt in the dark from the transfer committee.

MD1990

We will have to become established in the top 4 before we can target world class players. We have a great bunch of young players under a manager who has already shown how well in can improve them. For instance Dortmund didn't buy any world class players they developed them & we are trying to do the same.

Mr Alan

Underpaid Mike wrote: »

Hang on a minute here, because he wasnt playing with a huge club and didnt come for a big fee then he is not potentially a great signing? Are you actually serious. Id love to have seen your reaction last year when we signed coutinho, sturridge etc. :eek::rolleyes::eek:

Sturridge I didn't expect great things from, but wasn't too fussed because Suarez was out star striker.

Coutinho I was happy about as he'd impressed in the few times I'd seen him for Inter.

When we signed either of them, it was to push on from 7th place. It wasn't to help alleviate the loss of Suarez when we'd gotten CL football, finished second in the league and should be aiming to solidify our position in the CL.

It might work out with Markovic, I hope it does. But we aren't giving ourselves the best chance of success with our current transfer policy imo.

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

That article completely goes against what you said and you want an apology hahaha.

You're being disingenuous now. You took exception to me saying fans had been on the lads back at Benfica. That's true.

Mr Alan

MD1990 wrote: »

We will have to become established in the top 4 before we can target world class players.

How come that wasn't true in previous years (Suarez for example) or for other clubs (infinite examples)?

Mr Alan

whatawaster wrote: »

The point of transfers isn't to scare the other PL teams. Coutinho and Sturridge were two of our best signings of the past few years. They were hardly leaving the rest of the PL quaking in their boots. Markovic has been called one of the best talents in Europe, I don't think it's just a punt in the dark from the transfer committee.

If we close out the window signing a forward the ilk of Bony & Moreno, how do you think we'll fare this season?

Dickerty

Mr Alan wrote: »

But we aren't giving ourselves the best chance of success with our current transfer policy imo.

So please explain to me, what is your policy? Don't sign promising young players like Markovic, Coutinho, Origi and Moreno, and instead sell the farm for Falcao?
Are you looking beyond this season at all?

Also, please note the succes that Chelsea have had in buying not-yet-perfect players and developing/loaning them (Luiz, Mata, Lukaku, De Bruyne) - we could make a lot of money from some of these players even if we don't end up building a team around them...

ush

the kelt wrote: »

Its funny but Toure is seen as our weakest centre half, yet he made exactly as many appearances as Agger last season and had exactly the same amount of defensive errors as Agger. Both had 3 errors in 20 games.

Not all errors are equal. Kolo's assist for West Brom.

tok9

You said he had a good first half of the season and a bad second half with the fans happy to see him go.

This is completely untrue. According to many he had a fantastic end of season and the fans certainly didn't want to see him go.

You are making it sound like we bought an unwanted winger for 20 million which is just completely false.

You can't just cherry pick what you said and then complain about others muddying the waters.

Dickerty

Mr Alan wrote: »

How come that wasn't true in previous years (Suarez for example) or for other clubs (infinite examples)?

Suarez wasn't world class when we signed him.
Please share those examples, and how it worked out for them.

And please don't compare us to PSG, Monaco, or any of the Russian/Ukranian clubs who had money to burn...

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

If we close out the window signing a forward the ilk of Bony & Moreno, how do you think we'll fare this season?

First off. I really hope we don't sign Bony. I don't think he'll suit us.

If we'd signed Remy, for example, I think we'd have done just fine. Scored a lot of goals. Sterling got 10 in half a season last year, I'd expect more from him. I'd expect 20 from Sturridge. Coutinho's finishing should improve. You'd expect Lallana, Markovic, Lambert, new striker, Gerrard, Henderson all to chip in. You'd hope our defense would improve.

I think we will have a fight on our hands for 4th this season, honestly. That was always going to be the case after Suarez left. Even if Suarez had stayed he'd be missing a quarter of the season. I think Everton will be as strong as last year, I think Spurs might be stronger. United will be stronger. I think we have the quality to stay ahead of all of them though, but it will be tough.

MD1990

Mr Alan wrote: »

How come that wasn't true in previous years (Suarez for example) or for other clubs (infinite examples)?

Suarez was at Ajax . A lot of clubs would be sceptical of Eredivise & because he was playing in the 5 or 6th best league in Europe he wasn't renowned as a world class player. Others clubs had Billionaire owners will pay 5 or 6 players over 200k a week. We nearly went under in 2010 we don't have that luxury. Your just going to have faith in Rodgers & that he can develop our young players. No point acting like a spoilt child who isnt getting what he wants.

the kelt

Mr Alan wrote: »

A tiny amount of minutes together no doubt, unlikely to be statistically relevant.



Again, the same amount of appearances but significantly less minutes for Toure, right?

Either you don't get it or you're intentionally trying to muddy the waters.

Well out of the 20 appearances Toure made 5 as a sub while Agger made 4 as a sub so id imagine that difference in minutes played is hardly making a huge difference!

LuckyLloyd

Dickerty wrote: »

So please explain to me, what is your policy? Don't sign promising young players like Markovic, Coutinho, Origi and Moreno, and instead sell the farm for Falcao?
Are you looking beyond this season at all?

Also, please note the succes that Chelsea have had in buying not-yet-perfect players and developing/loaning them (Luiz, Mata, Lukaku, De Bruyne) - we could make a lot of money from some of these players even if we don't end up building a team around them...

That is one side of the Chelsea player acquisition strategy and they're very good at it. The other side of their strategy is the side that has secured 10 major trophies in the past 10 seasons. Chelsea are a club that knows how to win stuff that is important though.

Devilman40k

the kelt wrote: »

Well out of the 20 appearances Toure made 5 as a sub while Agger made 4 as a sub so id imagine that difference in minutes played is hardly making a huge difference!

Toure 20 games [15(5)] - 1439 minutes

Agger 20 games [16(4)] - 1420 minutes

MD1990

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That is one side of the Chelsea player acquisition strategy and they're very good at it. The other side of their strategy is the side that has secured 10 major trophies in the past 10 seasons. Chelsea are a club that knows how to win stuff that is important though.

And they do it in the most ugly fashion possible. I know u will say that u don't care & winning is all that matters which is fine. But in certain clubs winning in that style is unacceptable & I'd like to think under Rodgers Liverpool would have a smilar philosophy.

Chip Whitley

Newcastle linked with Lacazette today. Think he'd be a good signing who could be a great one after a bit of Rodgers magic.

Devilman40k

MD1990 wrote: »

And they do it in the most ugly fashion possible. I know u will say that u don't care & winning is all that matters which is fine. But in certain clubs winning in that style is unacceptable & I'd like to think under Rodgers Liverpool would have a smilar philosophy.

We won plenty under Houllier (Dogs of war anyone?) and Benitez playing a defensive style no one cared then...

Hoki

Chelsea have the luxury of being able to buy these promising players and loaning them out while at the same time signing a couple of world class players for large fees every transfer window to bolster their starting 11. We haven't got that luxury & may never have.

Dickerty

The Incredible Hulk wrote: »

Newcastle linked with Lacazette today. Think he'd be a good signing who could be a great one after a bit of Rodgers magic.

He's a bit fiery like Remy, I wonder if that puts us off?

Rodgers was very clear in interview that their mentality needs to be right.
I wonder if that as a ? over Remy, and then someone else tipped the scales.

My €5 is on us signing someone much more stable.
After Dnipro went out last night, Kono should be available, only a year left on his deal - but he's the wrong player for now..

Vinz Mesrine

tok9 wrote: »

You said he had a good first half of the season and a bad second half with the fans happy to see him go.

This is completely untrue. According to many he had a fantastic end of season and the fans certainly didn't want to see him.

You are making it sound like we bought an unwanted winger for 20 million which is just completely false.

You can't just cherry pick what you said and then complain about others muddying the waters.

I wouldn't expect a response to this. You made too much sense and showed Mr Alan up to be talking complete nonsense about Markovic.

Underpaid Mike

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That is one side of the Chelsea player acquisition strategy and they're very good at it. The other side of their strategy is the side that has secured 10 major trophies in the past 10 seasons. Chelsea are a club that knows how to win stuff that is important though.

Lets just copy real madrids transfer policy while we are at it

We dont have an oligarch owner
Fifa Fair Play rules mean that we cant do what Chelsea did even if we wanted to because we dont bring in enough revenue
Our stadium is falling apart and needs 300m? probably of investment

I would have NO problem if we went out and started spending 80m on marquee players. Would be sensational. But we would be bankrupt unless we won every trophy on earth for the next 10 years. Id prefer to have a stable club and also the ability to challenge. We cant have galactico signings unfortunately due to our fiscal situation

LuckyLloyd

MD1990 wrote: »

And they do it in the most ugly fashion possible. I know u will say that u don't care & winning is all that matters which is fine. But in certain clubs winning in that style is unacceptable & I'd like to think under Rodgers Liverpool would have a smilar philosophy.

"Unacceptable"? I should think all Liverpool fans would have welcomed something like their 2012 CL victory. Wouldn't turn something similar down this year for sure!

Underpaid Mike

Dickerty wrote: »

He's a bit fiery like Remy, I wonder if that puts us off?

Rodgers was very clear in interview that their mentality needs to be right.
I wonder if that as a ? over Remy, and then someone else tipped the scales.

My €5 is on us signing someone much more stable.
After Dnipro went out last night, Kono should be available, only a year left on his deal - but he's the wrong player for now..

Apparently Kono was anonymous for both legs
Not sure we need another attacking midfielder, no problem at all if he signs. He is no longer a priority though.

Dickerty

Hoki wrote: »

Chelsea have the luxury of being able to buy these promising players and loaning them out while at the same time signing a couple of world class players for large fees every transfer window to bolster their starting 11. We haven't got that luxury & may never have.

They did a lot of that buying before FFP, and now they only need minor surgery each window. And they have already stockpiled players to use as bargaining chips or get quick $ in.

They have funded Fabregas, Costa and Luis by selling Luiz, Ba and Lukaku.
They funded Matic, Salah and Zouma with Mata, and Schurrle was paid for my De Bruyne.

Their starting point is way ahead of us. Maybe we can catch up over 5 years by buying young as we are and having less turnover/taking less risks.

The Mig

Keep the faith lads. We've come a long way

Mr Alan

Dickerty wrote: »

So please explain to me, what is your policy? Don't sign promising young players like Markovic, Coutinho, Origi and Moreno, and instead sell the farm for Falcao?
Are you looking beyond this season at all?

A combination of young developing players & top players on the cusp of turning into World Class players would be fine with me.

tok9 wrote: »

You said he had a good first half of the season and a bad second half with the fans happy to see him go.

That's an absolute lie.

Dickerty wrote: »

Suarez wasn't world class when we signed him.
Please share those examples, and how it worked out for them.

He was on the cusp of it. Rebel will attest to that! :P

whatawaster wrote: »

First off. I really hope we don't sign Bony. I don't think he'll suit us.

If we'd signed Remy, for example, I think we'd have done just fine. Scored a lot of goals. Sterling got 10 in half a season last year, I'd expect more from him. I'd expect 20 from Sturridge. Coutinho's finishing should improve. You'd expect Lallana, Markovic, Lambert, new striker, Gerrard, Henderson all to chip in. You'd hope our defense would improve.

I think we will have a fight on our hands for 4th this season, honestly. That was always going to be the case after Suarez left. Even if Suarez had stayed he'd be missing a quarter of the season. I think Everton will be as strong as last year, I think Spurs might be stronger. United will be stronger. I think we have the quality to stay ahead of all of them though, but it will be tough.

If we finish 7th this season, you do understand Rodgers will probably get sacked. Right?

tok9

tok9 wrote: »

You said he had a good first half of the season and a bad second half with the fans happy to see him go.

Mr Alan wrote: »

That's an absolute lie.

Mr Alan wrote: »

But when he signed and relevant journos/sites were writing pieces about him to let Liverpool fans know who they'd just spent a big lump of cash on, many mentioned that he had a great start to the season but his form nose dived in Jan and fans were frustrated with him keeping his place.

No it's not a lie. It's literally what you said and are now spreading on this site. It doesn't matter if it's your opinion or not as you're ready to shove it down our throats anyway..

Btw, that was just the latest post I could find.. I know you mentioned it a few times.

Mr Alan

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

I wouldn't expect a response to this. You made too much sense and showed Mr Alan up to be talking complete nonsense about Markovic.

I think you'll find I responded pointing out that he was lying in relation to what I actually said.

I said I'd read he had a good start to the season, but his formed dipped in the second half and that fans got on his back.

What actually happened was he had a poor first half of the season, fans got on his back. Manager stuck by him and his form improved in the second half of the season.

My point, that on the face of it this transfer is not significantly imrprovement to our starting 11. Nor is it one that wouldn't have been possible last season imo. That's disappointing.

Dickerty

Kicker saying we are in for Loris Karius, Mainz keeper, as new #2. He's 21, 6'3", only broke into their first team last year I think? Benfica also sniffing around...

Ah, he was on City's books for 3 years, so I guess our backroom/scouting team know him...

I always liked Agger, seems like a classy guy and obviously loves the club and city. However, I think he's gone backwards quite a bit and the time is right to move on.

Toure should follow him tbh. He's well past it and I never want to see him in a Liverpool shirt again.

MD1990

Mr Alan wrote: »

I think you'll find I responded pointing out that he was lying in relation to what I actually said.

I said I'd read he had a good start to the season, but his formed dipped in the second half and that fans got on his back.

What actually happened was he had a poor first half of the season, fans got on his back. Manager stuck by him and his form improved in the second half of the season.

My point, that on the face of it this transfer is not significantly imrprovement to our starting 11. Nor is it one that wouldn't have been possible last season imo. That's disappointing.

Evey young player has a loss of form. Its natural for a young player. Everything is way too black & white with you imo.

Vinz Mesrine

Mr Alan wrote: »

I think you'll find I responded pointing out that he was lying in relation to what I actually said.

I said I'd read he had a good start to the season, but his formed dipped in the second half and that fans got on his back.

What actually happened was he had a poor first half of the season, fans got on his back. Manager stuck by him and his form improved in the second half of the season.

My point, that on the face of it this transfer is not significantly imrprovement to our starting 11. Nor is it one that wouldn't have been possible last season imo. That's disappointing.

So what you said initially was completely opposite to what actually happened.

He was absolutely crucial in their European run and Iirc was man of the match against spurs.

NukaCola

You'd think after the season we'd just had and direction we've been heading, people would put a bit of faith in Brendan Rodgers and what players he wants at the club.

Nobody has to follow blindly, but it seems like the same miserable ****ers just want to moan about the same things every year. Even last year when those people were completely blown away by how we played still coming out with nothing but negativity. Our success last season wasn't just all down to Suarez.

Dickerty

The Mig wrote: »

Keep the faith lads. We've come a long way

At the TIME, that was 3 v good players (Pepe, Carra and GlenJo), 3 decent skins (Shelvey, Soto and Meireles) and 5 has-beens...

NukaCola

MD1990 wrote: »

Evey young player has a loss of form. Its natural for a young player. Everything is way too black & white with you imo.

Some people were happy to let Sterling go out on loan before last season for example.

Cjs21

tritium wrote: »

Very far ahead? Bale, James R, Reuss, Neymar and a few others would have a claim to be in the top bracket. Its a bit much to claim those three are streets ahead of the rest. Messi a couple of seasons ago maybe, Suarez on the back of several extremely good and one exceptional season (domestically only)? No! Hugely valuable to us alright but a lot of the love for him is through red tinted glasses

Or else the denial of this is through jealousy that he doesn't play for us?

Suarez, Messi and Ronaldo are miles ahead of any of the above players.

I really cannot believe you've put James Rodriguez and Reus in there, they aren't even in the top 20 in the world right now? Never mind near Messi, Ronaldo and Suarez.

James Rodriguez had a fantastic WC but the fee paid for him is literally just showing the world and mainly Barcelona that they have more money, even in todays multi-million bids he is not even nearly worth what they paid for him.

Also Reus, he isn't even the best player in his own country.

Bale has the potential to be up there as does Neymar, but right now they are still quite far away from the top 3.