Liverpool Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014 - Mod Note in OP 28/8

LuckyLloyd

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Could you answer my question about the world cup winners this summer? And the top scorer one too.

Please.

Three of the four front runners in betting markets comprised the semi final lineup. I'm not sure that helps your point!

And in anycase, using a single data point is always a bad line of argument. In the main, the market is correct.

Vinz Mesrine

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Three of the four front runners in betting markets comprised the semi final lineup. I'm not sure that helps your point!

Did the favourites win the competition or not?

Devilman40k

Cjs21 wrote: »

Spain were the same price as Germany at the start of the WC. 15/2

Brazil were edging towards 7/2 and Argentina were 6/1.

Got Germany myself with PP at 13/2 (didn't win a whole pile before anyone asks :P )

15/2 .. what I could have done with that extra tenner :pac:

klose

Bookies odds is fairly simplistic, you could check that list tomorrow and it will probably be changed again, same as using bookies odds when signing players "x was 7/1 earlier and is now at evens" probably because some guy put 20 quid on it.

Kess73

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Simple question: would you say bookmaker's favourites generally win or lose?

Liverpool were the favourites to win the league a couple of times last season.

So would say that odds are a mix of what the public are lumping on at any given time along with what the bookmakers see as the best way to make profit/avoid loss.


I get the point you are making, but there are too many variables for odds at the start of August to mean an awful lot.

K-9

Kess73 wrote: »

Moreno and one quality attacker between now and the end of the window would make this a strong window for me, and if we add anything at all on top of that, well it will put us in a good position to compete this coming season.

If we do that then it would be a good window. I'd say we might add a back up keeper as well.

As everybody keeps asking and nobody seems to answer, there doesn't seem to be any strikers available that would improve the first 11, Benzema signed a new contract. Seems to be players out there that could step to that level but there's a lot of mention of Serie A players, our and Englands track record with those players just rings alarm bells for me!

Vinz Mesrine

Kess73 wrote: »

Liverpool were the favourites to win the league a couple of times last season.

So would say that odds are a mix of what the public are lumping on at any given time along with what the bookmakers see as the best way to make profit/avoid loss.


I get the point you are making, but there are too many variables for odds at the start of August to mean an awful lot.

Surely the fact that United are 5/1 to win the league proves how ridiculous that market is. I'd have them at double those odds, at least.

Knex*

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Wow, just wow. I don't have the words to describe the stupidity of using bookmakers odd.

Tell me, how did the favourites for the world cup get on this summer? The 2nd favs? 3rd favs?

To be fair, its as good an indication as to where you squad is perceived as being as you can get, really.

The mass can be wrong, but overall its a decent indicator. I mean, its not like QPR, or someone, are near the top of the list and Lloyd is using that as his measuring stick.

I'd find it hard to argue against us being 5th in the list of top teams in the league, as things stand right now.

Vinz Mesrine

Knex. wrote: »

To be fair, its as good an indication as to where you squad is perceived as being as you can get, really.

The mass can be wrong, but overall its a decent indicator. I mean, its not like QPR, or someone, are near the top of the list and Lloyd is using that as his measuring stick.

I'd find it hard to argue against us being 5th in the list of top teams in the league right now.

Put it this way, I'd rather be in our position than that of Arsenal or United.

ush

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

And drop......

Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho, Lallana, Henderson and Gerrard are nailed on starters as our front 6.

Grand so. We'll have the same front six in all competitions regardless of injuries, tactical adjustments, suspensions and form. Squad rotation went out with the flood.

Vinz Mesrine

ush wrote: »

Grand so. We'll have the same front six in all competitions regardless of injuries, tactical adjustments, suspensions and form. Squad rotation went out with the flood.

I'm sorry but could you point out where I said that?

Did I mention Markovic, Ibe, Lambert, Can, Lucas, Allen?

Chip Whitley

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

On a public message board sometimes people will voice opinions you don't agree with or focus on issues you don't find interesting yourself. *Shrugs*

No problem with that tbf, 9 times out of 10 I don't even read yours or Alan's posts, but the thread has been hijacked by stupid back and forths because of overriding negativity and it's impossible to see any actual news, rumours, gossip or interesting talk about the team.

The tone of your post and the *shrug* confirms for me exactly the type of poster you are and this will be the last time I engage you in the thread, cheers. *Smiles*

Knex*

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Put it this way, I'd rather be in our position than that of Arsenal or United.

Why Arsenal? I can see United because of transitional period, some aging players, and no CL, even if they do have potential to make a run for the title.

But Arsenal?

I really don't think there's a whole pile in it, tbh.

I'm excited as to where we are at right now, especially with our young players and Rodgers, etc, but I don't think we have the inside track on the above teams.

Certainly not unless we can CL a few years on the bounce and see how our players and squad develop. Too many unknowns.

Mr Alan

This thread has gotten incredibly arrogant.

Rival fans are going to love it if/when we fall this season

ush

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

I'm sorry but could you point out where I said that?

Did I mention Markovic, Ibe, Lambert, Can, Lucas, Allen?

"....nailed on starters as our front six." Thats quite an unequivocal statement.

We have one natural goal scorer, another that can do a job and a third thats half out the door. Unless we sign a recognised striker, we could be looking at Kristoffer Peterson starting matches.

tok9

Ah to be fair, Lloyd going by the bookies odds isn't the worst way to look at it so I wouldn't exactly bash him over it.

However I will say that one good season for Liverpool and one bad season for United was never going to see a huge reversal in odds for the next season anyway.

I'm honestly quitely confident this season. I'm not sure why there is so much doom and gloom. As has been said, realistically Sturridge is our main striker so signing another striker probably won't make a huge difference to the team unless it is along the lines of a Martinez type signing.

We've significantly improved our squad (Very hopeful on Moreno) to cope with this season. As I've said before, if we get Moreno in, we need to look at a striekr and CM. Get both of those in and it's actually been a really good window.

Vinz Mesrine

Mr Alan wrote: »

This thread has gotten incredibly arrogant.

Rival fans are going to love it if/when we fall this season

Not as much as you'll love it if we fail.

Did you come up with any strikers we should sign yet?

Vicxas

Mr Alan wrote: »

This thread has gotten incredibly arrogant.

Rival fans are going to love it if/when we fall this season

Of course they will, especially after last season...

Vinz Mesrine

ush wrote: »

"....nailed on starters as our front six." Thats quite an unequivocal statement.

We have one natural goal scorer, another that can do a job and a third thats half out the door. Unless we sign a recognised striker, we could be looking at Kristoffer Peterson starting matches.

Yes, if everyone is fit I think they will be our starting front 6. I don't see what the problem is.

Oranage2

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Put it this way, I'd rather be in our position than that of Arsenal or United.

Yes exactly, arsenal sign Sanchez, Liverpool sign Lambert.

Underpaid Mike

As an aside to bookies odds, PaddyPower posted this yesterday


‏@paddypower
Fun fact: 35% of our Premier League Outright market has been staked on Man United; more than three times the money on Man City!

Chip Whitley

Mr Alan wrote: »

This thread has gotten incredibly arrogant.

Rival fans are going to love it if/when we fall this season

Rival fans loved it last year too after Gerrard slipped, after the Palace game... nothing new and it should be taken as a compliment imo.

Vinz Mesrine

Oranage2 wrote: »

Yes exactly, arsenal sign Sanchez, Liverpool sign Lambert.

You must have an alarm informing you whenever Arsenal are mentioned.

Knex*

Mr Alan wrote: »

This thread has gotten incredibly arrogant.

Rival fans are going to love it if/when we fall this season

Alan, you have one of the most arrogant postings styles I've seen in my time in this forum. Arrogance in your own opinion, rather than that of the Club's talent, but you've notoriously been of a 'put down' nature for a long time in here.

However, there definitely is some over optimism from some quarters, but you can see why when we challenged for the title so well last season.

Personally, I feel better about our chances now, than I did this time last season when I was expecting us to come 6th. We have come a long way since, even if we have lost our main player.

We won't be challenging for the league though, I can't help but feel.

greendom

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Put it this way, I'd rather be in our position than that of Arsenal or United.

this season or looking longer term ?

Vinz Mesrine

greendom wrote: »

this season or looking longer term ?

Both.

shano_88

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

You must have an alarm informing you whenever Arsenal are mentioned.

Would you really have Liverpool ahead of Arsenal as things stand?

Dickerty

Oranage2 wrote: »

Yes exactly, arsenal sign Sanchez, Liverpool sign Lambert.

Yes, and NOTHING else happened. It's that simple.

Utopia Parkway

shano_88 wrote: »

Would you really have Liverpool ahead of Arsenal as things stand?

They are both on zero points currently.

ush

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Yes, if everyone is fit I think they will be our starting front 6. I don't see what the problem is.

You were questioning the wisdom of buying another striker, which the club are actively trying to do. There's no guarantee that Sturridge will last the entire season. Even if he does, there'll be occasions where he'll need replacing or another striker to share the burden. Rodgers will have to manage the squad regardless. I think its defeatist to automatically rule out buying another 20-goal a season striker, on the grounds that someone might take offense to being rotated.

greendom

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Both.

Thinking of long term budgets and stadium redevelopments ?

Chip Whitley

I'm excited to see the absolute pace in the team this year. Glimpses of it in pre-season. We were able to blitz teams last year and Suarez was clinical as feck at the end of it. I think we will be even pacier this year but hopefully be smarter with it because a) we have to be as Suarez is gone and b) we left ourselves very stretched at times.

Do people think the starting 11 for the Dortmund game will give us a more accurate idea of the team sheet for the Soton game?

D'Agger

Knex. wrote: »

If D'Agger says that we should move on from D'Agger, then that should be the end of it, really.

(Mmmm)Whatcha sayyyy, D'Aggs? :pac:

Yeah, I think he's regressed over the past two seasons. Still a good player and wouldn't mind him staying but we know that he's already stated he would only go if he wasn't getting his game so 2+2 = lookslikehe'llleave

shano_88

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

They are both on zero points currently.

This guy, huh. Always with the jokes.

LuckyLloyd

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Put it this way, I'd rather be in our position than that of Arsenal or United.

And this is the crux of the current debate on here.

City haven't lost much;
Chelsea have probably improved;
Arsenal have probably improved;
Utd have cleared out some dead wood and drastically upgraded manager;
We have probably disimproved;

It's a stretch to argue that we've stood still tbh, and it would be churlish to claim our rivals have disimproved.

Last year was an extraordinary situation where Utd had a hapless manager in charge doomed to fail. They now have an appropriate person in charge and the core of a squad that won the league at a canter in 2012 / 13.

I think we are in danger of being one and done in the CL. That is where the discontent comes from.

Soft Falling Rain

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Not as much as you'll love it if we fail.

Did you come up with any strikers we should sign yet?

No Liverpool supporter wants to see the club fail, so it's unfair to level that at anyone.

TBH the concern some are showing over our 'poor' transfer business is wide of the mark, given that we still have the guts of 3 weeks to go in the window and we've no idea what role Rodgers has in mind for his new recruits.

I am absolutely against spending big money for the sake of it, I even saw one poster on here yesterday claiming we should lash out an €80m bid on Falcao which is just mental stuff.

We all only want what's best for the club but I think Rodgers deserves our trust to go about rebuilding the team as he sees fit. He's earned that trust. That doesn't mean he's absolved of criticism if it goes wrong, it just means he deserves the chance to do things on his own terms without people going mental before a competitive ball has even been kicked.

Dickerty

greendom wrote: »

Thinking of long term budgets and stadium redevelopments ?

May as well throw in commercial revenue, fan base, youth policy, etc. Any of of those things can have an 8 figure impact, e.g.

Training kit deal with Garuda
Developing a player like Sterling, to save you spending £25M
International tours bringing in £10s of millions

greendom

Dickerty wrote: »

May as well throw in commercial revenue, fan base, youth policy, etc. Any of of those things can have an 8 figure impact, e.g.

Training kit deal with Garuda
Developing a player like Sterling, to save you spending £25M
International tours bringing in £10s of millions

I'd have Arsenal ahead overall on those 'incidentals'

Oranage2

Dickerty wrote: »

Yes, and NOTHING else happened t's that simple.

Arsenal signed the French starting right back and and a very promising English right back, Liverpool signed some guy that played 4 games last season.

Utopia Parkway

God I hope we sign a good striker soon. The bellyaching in here the last day or two has been relentless. And we haven't kicked a ball in a competitive match yet.

Devilman40k

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think we are in danger of being one and done in the CL. That is where the discontent comes from.

There was always a danger of it being a one off with or without Suarez though, and with Suarez 4 month ban (appeal pending of course) we were going to be in a difficult position anyway.

As it stands we can get in an attacker...who I have no idea, but the funds are there

MD1990

Oranage2 wrote: »

Arsenal signed the French starting right back and and a very promising English right back, Liverpool signed some guy that played 4 games last season.

Manquillo will be a much better RB than Chambers & yes ive seen both of them play about 5 or 6 times. Sagna is also a better RB than Debuchy poor decision to start Debuchy at the World Cup imo.

Utopia Parkway

Oranage2 wrote: »

Arsenal signed the French starting right back and and a very promising English right back, Liverpool signed some guy that played 4 games last season.

Depends if you rate Debuchy. Personally think Sagna was better than him.

And Chambers is barely any more experienced than Manquillo is. We've just heard of him because he played a few games for Southampton.

Oranage2

MD1990 wrote: »

Manquillo will be a much better RB than Chambers & yes ive seen both of them play about 5 or 6 times. Sagna is also a better RB than Debuchy poor decision to start Debuchy at the World Cup imo.

You can judge a players potential on watching them 5 or six times, have any of the big clubs asked you to be a part of their scouting network?

Kess73

K-9 wrote: »

If we do that then it would be a good window. I'd say we might add a back up keeper as well.

As everybody keeps asking and nobody seems to answer, there doesn't seem to be any strikers available that would improve the first 11, Benzema signed a new contract. Seems to be players out there that could step to that level but there's a lot of mention of Serie A players, our and Englands track record with those players just rings alarm bells for me!

Another pretty obvious point may be that Rodgers does not want another first team striker, and instead will be looking to get a number two forward who is in the good to very good level of quality.


We were never going to be able to replace Suarez in a like for like manner, so the most obvious thing to do (in my eyes anyway) is to try to improve the team in a number of positions and likewise with the squad.

Would be very surprised if we started a lot of games with two out and out strikers, but instead think we will be putting a lot of focus on using the flanks (be it with wingers or wide forwards) and midfield positions to spread the attacking threat.

I also think that one of the easiest ways to try and counter some of the goals lost through Suarez leaving will be to decrease the nuber of goals we concede. Rodgers seems to be trying to do this as well by bringing in an organiser in Lovern and high workrate midfield players like Can and Lallana.


Now the next bit from me is going to be very simplistic, but if our new players add say 20 league goals between them, and our defence concede 20 league goals less, then in goal terms at least we have offset Suarez and added a little. Now as I said that is a very simplistic way to look at it and does not take into account that X factor Suarez had on the pitch, Things that cannot really be quantified like how he forced teams to double up on him and what not. But the same can be said with the addition of an organiser in the back line (Lovern) and a player who is both interceptor and provider like Lallana as they bring a bit of the unquantifiable with them as well.

Now before anyone chokes and thinks I am directly comparing Lallana and Lovern to Suarez, I am not doing that. But what I am saying is that the loss of a genius player can be countered by the addition of a number of good players and some changes in tactics and/or formation. Rodgers will know this, and his reputation and possibly his Liverpool career going forward will live or die by such decisions, so we, the supporters, should be just as conscious of it.

Most of us on here are old enough to remember the loss of at least one or two truly top class players, and a number of us are decrepit enough to recall many many more examples.

But what does seem clear to me is that our current manager is trying to build a unit, a team, and that he seems to be bringing in players to improve us by improving the unit rather than improving us by bringing in a genius to take the weight of the team onto his shoulders.

Will the manager be proven right? Who knows, but I sure as hell hope so, and after last season he should be given the benefit of the doubt as to what he can do with our players. He has earned it for the coming season at the very least.

MD1990

Oranage2 wrote: »

You can judge a players potential on watching them 5 or six times, have any of the big clubs asked you to be a part of their scouting network?

Don't be a smartass. There is a reason Barca wanted to get 1st refusel on him last summer. Wenger decided to sign Chambers after no seeing much of him. He made the decision after seeing against Arsenal last season.

tok9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

We have probably disimproved;

It's a stretch to argue that we've stood still tbh, and it would be churlish to claim our rivals have disimproved.

But it's honestly not that easy to just say we've disimproved. We've significantly improved the squad but have obviously lost our best player.

As an example I'm sure many would have said the same of a team like Atletico who lost their best player in Falcao. Surely most would argue they're team was now weaker yet they went on to have a significantly better season winning the league and unfortunate not to win the CL.

murpho999

I step into the thread today and it's almost the exact same as this time last year.

Thing is, it's very easy to come on here and be negative. It takes zero effort to find criticisms of decisions and strategies before their implementation has been done.
Also, completely ignoring that the transfer window is open until September 1st.

Ideally you'd want the signings done by now but it's not always possible that's why you'll see transfers going to the wire , even for the big clubs.

Suarez was a big loss but he's impossible to replace directly with one player, he is that good.

However, we got a lot of money for him and I think (note "think" not know) that Rodgers is adopting a strategy of getting more goals from midfielders to try and make up the loss. I'd also expect players that did well last season like Sterling, Sturridge and Henderson to improve as they are young and progressing.

I'm looking forward to the season ahead and have faith in the manager and team behind him, including FSG and even Ian Ayre and we should just let them get on with it and see what happens before passing judgement.

People here 12 months ago did not rate our chances of top 4 last season and it turned out we almost won the league so I don't so why those posters should get any credence now.

NEDDURC

The Incredible Hulk wrote: »

I'm excited to see the absolute pace in the team this year. Glimpses of it in pre-season. We were able to blitz teams last year and Suarez was clinical as feck at the end of it. I think we will be even pacier this year but hopefully be smarter with it because a) we have to be as Suarez is gone and b) we left ourselves very stretched at times.

Do people think the starting 11 for the Dortmund game will give us a more accurate idea of the team sheet for the Soton game?

There are very few teams in the league that have the pace in attack that LFC have. If we can start games especially at home in this blitz manner that worked well for us last year I think we should have a very successful year.

Arsenal have consistenly managed to get into the top 4. One of the main reasons is how well they can beat the lower teams in the league consistenly by controlling the ball and attacking at pace. I'm hoping that LFC are now in a similar scenario and we don't do our old trick of beating a top team then drawing with a bottom team. The additions to the squad should help us keep this high energy game up throughout the season.

ush

Devilman40k wrote: »

As it stands we can get in an attacker...who I have no idea, but the funds are there

Benzema, Higuain, Lavezzi, Huntelaar, Martínez, Bony....

I don't follow that much "foreign" leagues. But they're the names that come to my mind. Now you can go through that list and cancel out players based on wage demands, interest from other clubs and all the rest of it. But this name-the strikers-that-could-be-signed is a pointless argument. The club has scouts who monitor talent all over the world. Its not the first time the club has needed to buy a striker. And it won't be the last.