Litter caused indirectly by local off-licence

johnny_adidas

We are having terrible trouble in our area with p!ssheads hanging around a laneway and littering the place with cans, bottles, trollies on occasion etc, etc. The gardai dont seem capable of preventing from loitering here and it has been ongoing for several years.
The locals & environmental section generally have to foot the bill to clean up the place on a regular basis. The laneway is within 100 yards of a local off-licence which gives these scum easy access to the alcohol. When the OL was closed a year ago, there were little to no issues for the whole year but now its open, they have nested again.
Would it be worth approaching a retail premises to ask them not to supply to them? (albeit they may be their most regular customers)
Are there any litter laws that can be used to get the environment section to encourage the business not to supply them, with the threat of fines for the indirect littering?

dudara

Have you tried to contact you local Litter Wardens and/or Environmental Awareness Officer?

homer911

I believe there are laws regarding the control of litter within a certain distance of a retail premises, not aware of the distance though..

Shelflife

All litter is technically caused indirectly by the retailer. So therefore all retailers should stop selling to everyone to avoid littering ?

Thats the basis of your arguement, the retailer isnt the issue, its the end user, however its alot easier to go into the local off licence and give off to them rather than approach the gang who are actually causing the problem.

johnny_adidas

Shelflife wrote: »

All litter is technically caused indirectly by the retailer. So therefore all retailers should stop selling to everyone to avoid littering ?

Thats the basis of your arguement, the retailer isnt the issue, its the end user, however its alot easier to go into the local off licence and give off to them rather than approach the gang who are actually causing the problem.

Not everyone walks around the corner, uses the product, dumps it and returns for more.
The 'gang' are a group of random losers. I have moved them on before, and on occasion it results in a scuffle. They couldnt care a jot and return a few weeks later. Its a usual day for them. But of course, Im sure theyll entertain a conversation about how their littering is affecting the neighbourhood. :rolleyes:
Meanwhile, back at the ranch.....
Dudara, The litter warden seems to operate behind the safety of the main reception and I've not spoken to him myself but it might be worth arranging a meeting alright.
Homer911, You're right, just found that its a radius of 100m from the retail premises. That might be good enough to suggest the off-licence to maintain the area (rather than us) or bar the people in question.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

rubadub

I would get onto a local TD and see if they can at least get a bin installed in the lane.

A lot of littering happens simply due to a lack of bins. I have driven through several places with "tidy town" signs up, it would be difficult to throw litter on the ground in them, since it would likely hit a bin first as there are so many!

I can think of several previously litter prone places that were solved by sticking a bin in.

Shelflife wrote: »

All litter is technically caused indirectly by the retailer. So therefore all retailers should stop selling to everyone to avoid littering ?

I think they should be responsible for litter which they know fine well they have a direct hand in. I am surprised offies are not included along the lines of these

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/litter_law.html

Litter control at major events
The promoters or organisers of major events (i.e, football matches and social and sporting events) are required to ensure that they have litter control measures in place at the venue and in the surrounding vicinity before, during and after the event. This task can be undertaken by the local authority but the promoter/organiser must bear the costs involved.

Mobile food outlets
Operators of mobile food outlets selling fast food or beverages or other outlets such as those selling farm produce are obliged to provide suitable litter bins in the vicinity of their outlets. Also, they must clean up any litter arising from the operation of their outlets within a radius of 100 metres of their outlet.

Is this offie a chain? I would get onto them and the press, if there was tons of litter outside a mcdonalds they would put their own bin out fairly quickly rather than face bad press.

Shelflife

Rubadub you quote legislation that has nothing to do with the situation. The offie isn't an event or a mobile food outlet, it's a shop, they are not responsible for what their customers do after they leave the premises.

You can't just attack the easy option when the problem clearly lies else where.

Maybe some of the waste is from the local offie but I'm sure that others bring drink from else where, are you going to go to the local aldi /lidl/ tesco and ask them to clean up as well ?

homer911

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If the litter is within the specified radius of the premises, the litter warden can take action against the retailer

rubadub

Shelflife wrote: »

The offie isn't an event or a mobile food outlet,

I know, maybe you missed this line

rubadub wrote: »

I am surprised offies are not included along the lines of these

I was pointing out that laws about litter & retailers do exist, and to show how ridiculous your suggestion to ban all retailers selling is -you know fine well he was not suggesting that or anything remotely like it.

I am also surprised fixed fast food premises are not held responsible too.

Shelflife wrote: »

they are not responsible for what their customers do after they leave the premises.

I think they should be to some degree. I think its stupid that they can just stick their head in the sand and get away without taking any responsibility. If some one is dumping their weekly rubbish from tesco I would not hold tesco to task. But the offie knows fine well the rubbish is from them. There were suggestions a year or so ago for all offies to print their name on all drinks, I think it was so if underage drinkers were caught they could see where it originated, this would have helped.

The HSE have previously issued warnings to petrol stations around halloween, pre-empting illegal/anti-social acts which could happen after a legal sale. Pretty sure I heard of shops not selling glue or solvents to people thought to be going to sniffing it. I have been in an off licence where they refused a sale to an above age person with proper ID since he was buying lots of drink and his friends were outside. Not sure if this offie could have legally sold it but either way they were fully aware an illegal act was probably going to take place and refused the sale.

Shelflife

If some one is dumping their weekly rubbish from tesco I would not hold tesco to task. But the offie knows fine well the rubbish is from them.

Why the double standard ?

While it may reflect badly on the off licence and it may be in their best interests to clean it up, the problem isn't caused by them or their responsibility.

It bugs be that people take the easy option of attacking the retailer when the problem lies elsewhere .

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

rubadub

Shelflife wrote: »

Why the double standard ?.

Are you taking the piss? Confirm your genuine ignorance first and then I will explain, otherwise I am wasting my time. I don't believe you are this ignorant.

The litter laws already contain "double standards" are you confused about those too?

Shelflife

rubadub wrote: »

Are you taking the piss? Confirm your genuine ignorance first and then I will explain, otherwise I am wasting my time. I don't believe you are this ignorant.

The litter laws already contain "double standards" are you confused about those too?

In the line I quoted you said that you would not take Tesco to task if people dumped what they bought from tesco, yet you want the local off licence to accept responsibility for their customers dumping what they bought off them.

I'm not ignorant at all thank you, you are the one quoting irrelavant legislation and wanting one shop to clean up rubbish whilst absolving another of the same responsibility.

Let's make it clear. The off licence has no responsibility at all to clear up the mess that it's customers make.

To try and make them responsible for the actions of others is unworkable and just silly.

Thoie

Look at it from another angle - why is that particular laneway so comfy for them to hang out in, other than that it's near an off license? Presuming it's council owned property, what could the council do to make it a less enticing place to hang out? Brighter lights? Mosquito tones? CCTV? The path is made of lava? Regular patrols with savage tigers?

Or, maybe they could put in (and empty!) some bins, or possibly gate off the laneway, depending on where it goes.

thomur

OP have you tried using the EPA Say it/See it app. I use it all the time when I find litter and it seems to get cleaned up pretty quickly(24 hours). Also I agree with a previous poster about contacting your local TD

foggy_lad

Shelflife wrote: »

Rubadub you quote legislation that has nothing to do with the situation. The offie isn't an event or a mobile food outlet, it's a shop, they are not responsible for what their customers do after they leave the premises.

You can't just attack the easy option when the problem clearly lies else where.

Maybe some of the waste is from the local offie but I'm sure that others bring drink from else where, are you going to go to the local aldi /lidl/ tesco and ask them to clean up as well ?

Many planning applications for takeaways and other shops include clauses stipulating certain duties and perimeters which must be cleaned by the shop on an ongoing or regular basis. Takeaways must also clean up a much larger area after they close up. simply supplying a bin is not enough the staff must go out sweeping and picking up the rubbish strewn around.

homer911

thomur wrote: »

OP have you tried using the EPA Say it/See it app. I use it all the time when I find litter and it seems to get cleaned up pretty quickly(24 hours). Also I agree with a previous poster about contacting your local TD

Never heard of this - is it in the play store? cant find it.

rubadub

Shelflife wrote: »

I'm not ignorant at all thank you

I didn't believe you were ignorant for a second. I believe you are feigning ignorance in an attempt to look smart, but its backfiring big time.

I think you know exactly what the OP and I were talking about. And I believe you fully realise why mobile fast food outlets have a "double standard"

Shelflife wrote: »

In the line I quoted you said that you would not take Tesco to task if people dumped what they bought from tesco, yet you want the local off licence to accept responsibility for their customers dumping what they bought off them.

Yes, the tesco comment was going back to your ridiculous comment that the OPs view would mean all retailers must be banned from selling anything.

I am talking about people fly tipping litter they bought in tesco miles away from the store. I do not expect tesco to go searching around regular fly tipping spots.

If it was people dumping empty tesco cider cans 100m from a tesco I would similarly think they should be held accountable -same as the offie, it is quite obvious what is going on.

I live right beside a tesco and there is a green area right beside it too which nowadays is full of foreign students who dump tesco branded waste all over the place. Tesco know fine well about this and I am not sure if its true but I heard tesco do take care of this littering. It certainly does not last any length of time and I know the residents commitee struggles to get people volunteering to clean.

Looking on google I can see the residents commitee in my area complained to tesco and they ended up building a gate & wall to at least try and separate the area. They put bins in too.

http://www.eoincostello.com/releases/tescopr.htm

The Watson Killiney Residents Association estimate that they spend between £3,000 and £4,000 maintaining the green area in terms of grass cutting and weed removal. In January of this year the residents association began a boycott of the Ballybrack store and collected 96 signatures of local residents on a petition calling on Tesco to build a wall closing Tesco’s forecourt off from the adjacent green open space.

Last week Tesco completed building the wall and railings to stop the litter. However a path entrance mid way along the wall remains litter strewn thus negating the effect of the wall to a large extent. Litter bins on both sides of this entrance were stuffed to overflowing on the two occasions Councillor Costello visited the spot.

I see the problem mentioned in minutes of meetings with teh county council too.
http://www.dlrcoco.ie/Meetings/2008/dlehccda/nov08.htm

Cleaning and maintaining of green area at Brackenbush

Question: Councillor M. Bailey

“To ask the Manager to make provisions to ensure that the green area at Brackenbush in Watson’s Estate, Killiney is kept clean and litter free. This green area is located beside Tesco Ballybrack and I would therefore ask the Manager to discuss with Tesco management ways in which both the supermarket and the Council could work together to keep the area clean?”

Reply:

The area in question is maintained on a regular basis and has been cleaned recently.We will make contact with the Manager of Tesco to discuss their role in having the area cleaned on a more regular basis.

So the OP might be able to find a local councillor to directly contact who may have fought against similar circumstances before.

This is why I was also asking if the off licence was a known chain, who would be more concerned about bad press.

This is what happened in the UK

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2141562/Daily-Mail-Spring-Clean-campaign-Tesco-Dominos-Greggs-join-crusade.html

Tesco leads a legion of top firms into litter war: Dominos and Greggs join in as Mail crusade picks up steam
A string of major companies including Tesco, Greggs and Dominos last night vowed to send their staff out litter-picking in support of the Mail’s campaign to clean up our streets.
They were joined by Subway and Pizza Hut in an overwhelming response to our drive to clean up the country ahead of the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee.
Bosses at Dominos, the country’s largest pizza delivery chain, have asked staff in all of its stores to get out and clean in their communities.

And, in a new policy for our Spring Clean for the Queen campaign, Pizza Hut will order its managers to keep pavements around their stores and delivery areas completely free of litter every day.

Charities last night praised the Mail for achieving ‘fantastic’ results in the battle to get the country cleaned up ahead of the Jubilee and Olympic celebrations.

Helen Bingham, of the charity Keep Britain Tidy, said: ‘We’re absolutely delighted that so many recognised brands are supporting this great campaign.
‘We hope that they will continue and join Keep Britain Tidy in making a long-term commitment to tackling litter in this country.’
On Monday, we revealed that our campaign had been backed by David Cameron, as well as a host of conservationists, charities, celebrities and campaigners.
Yesterday, the incredible response continued as supermarkets, food outlets and coffee chains all rushed to pledge support.
Marks & Spencer will encourage its staff to go out litter-picking, while Tesco promised to organise litter-picking events across many of its 2,900 outlets.

Subway, a sandwich chain with more than 1,500 branches in the UK, pledged its support and promised to ensure the pavements around their stores were ‘litter-free’ in the run-up to the Jubilee.
And Greggs, Britain’s biggest bakery chain with more than 1,500 shops, also promised to keep the pavements around its stores clean.
Dominos last night said three of its franchise holders had already signed up to projects cleaning up litter in their local areas.
Paul Ashurst, who owns 12 Dominos stores, said: ‘I’m determined to make sure our little bits of Essex are looking fantastic for the Queen.’ The pledges yesterday followed commitments by the coffee chain Starbucks and fast food outlet KFC to send their staff out litter-picking.
Miss Bingham said the response was ‘amazing’ – but warned there was still ‘more to be done’ in the battle to clean up the country before the Jubilee.
Several food chains contacted by the Mail yesterday – including Nando’s and Pret a Manger – admitted they had no current plans to help cut the amount of litter on the country’s streets.
Burger King said it did not have a policy because its stores were franchised, and decisions about litter-picking were made locally.
Other major high street chains, including Caffe Nero and EAT, were unable to give us any information on whether or not they were making efforts to cut down on litter.

Richard Branson has stepped forward to back the Mail’s campaign to clean up the country.
The entrepreneur, who acted as Britain’s ‘litter tsar’ under Margaret Thatcher, said it was a ‘great idea’.
‘If you own a house, you should be responsible for clearing the area in front of it. This is what people should be encouraged to do,’ he said.

HOW THE HIGH STREET BATTLE LINES ARE DRAWN
KFC: Staff do daily litter collections. Has pledged to send workers on extra collections in the run-up to the Jubilee
Subway Front of shops checked for litter. Has promised to ‘go the extra mile’ to ensure shop-fronts are litter-free
Greggs: Daily litter checks at the front of shops. ‘Applaud and support’ the Mail’s campaign and will make extra efforts to combat litter around stores.
Pret: A Manger No information offered, no commitments made. Last night a spokesman said firm was ‘still considering’ its response.
Starbucks: Offers customers who bring their own cup a 25p discount to cut down on paper cups used, litter checks in and around cafes. Will be sending out teams of baristas to litter-pick ahead of Jubilee
Costa Coffee: Staff collect litter on cafe premises and outdoor seating areas. No pledge yet, but voiced support for campaign
Dominos: Boxes are made of 80 per cent recycled cardboard and customers are encouraged to recycle. Has asked staff to organise litter-picks in run-up to the Jubilee, several stores already signed up
Pizza Hut: Recycles all cardboard. Pizza boxes carry the Keep Britain Tidy logo, encouraging customers to dispose of litter responsibly. New commitment to keep pavements outside restaurants and delivery stores clean
Marks & Spencer: Staff clear litter in store car-parks. In run-up to the Jubilee, employees will be encouraged to use their annual, paid volunteer day to support litter-picking initiatives across the UK.
Tesco: Staff ensure stores and car-parks are litter-free. Has asked staff to organise litter-picks ahead of the Jubilee
Sainsbury’s: Staff clean stores, car parks and areas immediately around stores. No commitments made
Burger King: No national litter strategy, no commitments made
CAFFE NERO: No information given, no commitments made
Nando’s: No national litter strategy, no commitments made
West Cornwall Pasty: No information provided, no commitments made
EAT: No information provided, no commitments made

Shelflife

Rubadub, the op asked if the off licence could be asked to stop serving the pissheads because they littered, I made a clearly exaggerated point to show how unworkable this scenario would be.

I also pointed out that it may well be in the off licences interests to clean up the area in the long run.

I never mentioned the double standards in relation to takeaways at all, I referred to the Tesco example that you brought up.

As I have said all along, it's not the fault of the off licence, it's the same in many a town that the PH will drink outside and leave a mess. In our local community we have asked them to put their cabs and bottles into bags left at their drinking locations to little or no avail, the relevant authorities couldn't be bothered doing anything as it happens outside of office hours.

My point simply is that it's not fair to bring the problems that the PH create to the law abiding retailer. But people will lay the blame at their door because it's an easier target.

rubadub

Shelflife wrote: »

Rubadub, the op asked if the off licence could be asked to stop serving the pissheads because they littered, I made a clearly exaggerated point to show how unworkable this scenario would be.

Yes, it appearred you were taking the complete piss out of the OP, mocking him for such a ludicrous suggestion/enquiry.

But then it turns out such laws do exist for other retailers who happen to also serve beverages which are commonly drank nearby and discarded, so not such a crazy suggestion/enquiry at all. The law did take what you call the "easy option", and I would think rightly so, I would call it the "sensible option" which is somewhat workable as the alternatives are very difficult to enforce or deal with.

The O'Briens offie near me have a list of barred young lads, I have seen them discussing lads hanging around outside, its not that outlandish a thing for an off-licence to do.

from 2009, not sure if its still in place but hope it is.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0109/112517-litter/

Litter bye-law 'nightmare' for Dublin shops
Some Dublin retailers have said they will not be able to comply with new council regulations on litter because they are too expensive to implement.

The bye-laws came into effect on Friday 2 January and require all pubs and premises that serve take-away food to clean the public footpaths 50m either side of them every one to two hours during opening times.

Retailers who serve take-away food are now also required to print their name and address on all packaging, and in the case of chains or franchises, specify the branch the packaging has come from.

Pubs must provide cigarette bins outside their premises and the distribution of leaflets and flyers has been completely banned.

Those who want to distribute free promotional material will have to apply for a licence, which costs €250 per event.

Brody Sweeney, the founder of O'Brien's Sandwich Bar, has described the bylaws as preposterous.

He said they presented an 'administrative nightmare' and a 'burden' for retailers and would increase costs at a time when many businesses are struggling.

Mr Sweeney said that complying with the bylaws was 'not practical' and that he had raised the case with a number of Dublin City Councillors.

He also said that many businesses were not aware that the bylaws had been introduced.

Dublin City Council says the bylaws were introduced to try to make those who produce waste responsible for it.

Anyone in breach of the by-laws faces fines of up to €19,000.

The council says they will be lenient on businesses at first as they make more retailers aware of the new rules.

Other retailers have expressed concern about the impact the ban on leaflets and flyers will have on their business.

Padraig Og Gallagher, the owner of Gallagher's Boxty House in Temple Bar, says that the use of flyers last summer increased his business by around 20%.

He said the ban could have a significant impact on his business.

Shelflife wrote: »

Let's make it clear. The off licence has no responsibility at all to clear up the mess that it's customers make.

Lets make it clear, I never said they did. I merely was saying I would like it if they were legally responsible, like some other retailers are.

Bepolite

Every law student learns the case the publican sweeping outside his pub and strict liability. Some even remember it properly, I did not. It's not crazy to expect a litter issue to be stopped if the source is known.

Shelflife

Bepolite wrote: »

Every law student learns the case the publican sweeping outside his pub and strict liability. Some even remember it properly, I did not. It's not crazy to expect a litter issue to be stopped if the source is known.

The source is the local PH that drink close to the off licence.