Change Calor Gas Bulk

Firblog

Hi folks

The whole estate I live on is supplied gas from one tank buried in common area. Calor fill the tank and bill everyone for their usage.
Today I got notice from them that they are putting up their prices so I phoned to find out what the options were for changing supplier. The girl I was talking to said that if they estate wants to change supplier then Calor will remove all their equipment - digging up the estate's well maintained lawn, and the new supplier will have to put their equipment in place - leaving everyone without any gas during the time taken.

My question is to anyone who may be familiar with this type of supplier setup, is this what would happen? Would it not just make more sense for the new supplier to purchase the equipment/infrastructure from calor?

Cheers

ted1

Firblog wrote: »

Hi folks

Would it not just make more sense for the new supplier to purchase the equipment/infrastructure from calor?

Cheers

by making it awkward they prevent themselves from losing the buisness

Firblog

Aye it seems that we're all captive consumers of calor gas now, even though I've never signed any contract with them I cannot get my gas from anyone else.

ted1

Firblog wrote: »

Aye it seems that we're all captive consumers of calor gas now, even though I've never signed any contract with them I cannot get my gas from anyone else.

Well you can. Calor went to the expensive so other companies too. Would a taxi man allow me to use his car to collect people?

Firblog

ted1 wrote: »

Well you can. Calor went to the expensive so other companies too. Would a taxi man allow me to use his car to collect people?

Not the same thing at all.

How about eircom says it will take down the phone lines to your house if you want to change, & the you've to pay for vodafone to put up new ones?

Plus, calor would have written the cost of installing the infrastructure off over time, and it has be charging a daily fee for the hardware, each house has easily paid over €400 by now X 50 houses = €20,000 over 5 years, just how much should calor get for 'their' tank & pipes?

Eldarion

Interesting one. Be tough to label this one as a legitimate barrier to entry or an anti-competitive practice.

You could try submitting a complaint to The Competition Authority(http://www.tca.ie/) and see if they entertain it.

L1011

Firblog wrote: »

Not the same thing at all.

How about eircom says it will take down the phone lines to your house if you want to change, & the you've to pay for vodafone to put up new ones?

Plus, calor would have written the cost of installing the infrastructure off over time, and it has be charging a daily fee for the hardware, each house has easily paid over €400 by now X 50 houses = €20,000 over 5 years, just how much should calor get for 'their' tank & pipes?

The fixed telephone network is open access - as is the gas network. What you have is a private install off any network.

Firblog

MYOB wrote: »

The fixed telephone network is open access - as is the gas network. What you have is a private install off any network.

Aye I know.

Firblog

Eldarion wrote: »

Interesting one. Be tough to label this one as a legitimate barrier to entry or an anti-competitive practice.

You could try submitting a complaint to The Competition Authority(http://www.tca.ie/) and see if they entertain it.

Thanks for that. Was thinking of the energy regulator, but found this on the TCA website

2. Section 5 prohibits the abuse of a dominant position. It is important to recognise that it does not prohibit a dominant position - only its abuse. Generally a firm is considered to be dominant if it is able to act without taking account of the reaction of its customers or its rivals, e.g. a firm which can increase its prices unilaterally because it knows that its customers have few, if any, satisfactory alternative sources of supply and therefore little choice but to pay the higher price

L1011

Firblog wrote: »

Thanks for that. Was thinking of the energy regulator, but found this on the TCA website

2. Section 5 prohibits the abuse of a dominant position. It is important to recognise that it does not prohibit a dominant position - only its abuse. Generally a firm is considered to be dominant if it is able to act without taking account of the reaction of its customers or its rivals, e.g. a firm which can increase its prices unilaterally because it knows that its customers have few, if any, satisfactory alternative sources of supply and therefore little choice but to pay the higher price

You have other satisfactory sources of supply, though - they just need their own kit to supply it.

This would be like expecting to buy Texaco-branded petrol in the Esso-branded station down the road.

ted1

Firblog wrote: »

Thanks for that. Was thinking of the energy regulator, but found this on the TCA website

2. Section 5 prohibits the abuse of a dominant position. It is important to recognise that it does not prohibit a dominant position - only its abuse. Generally a firm is considered to be dominant if it is able to act without taking account of the reaction of its customers or its rivals, e.g. a firm which can increase its prices unilaterally because it knows that its customers have few, if any, satisfactory alternative sources of supply and therefore little choice but to pay the higher price

Gas prices are unregulated and the price has increased, Calors margins are probably the same.

ZENER

Would it be feasible to inform them that from a certain date in the future several Gas Suppliers will be asked to quote for supplying gas to the complex including Calor and that the cheapest quote will win and that the tendering system will be repeated every 2 or 3 years etc?

Would anyone have the balls to propose this ?

Ken

ted1

ZENER wrote: »

Would it be feasible to inform them that from a certain date in the future several Gas Suppliers will be asked to quote for supplying gas to the complex including Calor and that the cheapest quote will win and that the tendering system will be repeated every 2 or 3 years etc?

Would anyone have the balls to propose this ?

Ken

Not many people is that line of buisness. Others would have to put in the infrastructure so not really any benefit.

OP what price were you paying and what are you now paying !

Firblog

MYOB wrote: »

You have other satisfactory sources of supply, though - they just need their own kit to supply it.

This would be like expecting to buy Texaco-branded petrol in the Esso-branded station down the road.

I don't really see how you can argue this, I don't pay Texaco/Esso money whether I use their product or not, also calor have their equipment installed throughout our estate, their main tank is buried under a very well maintained common area with trees etc surrounding.
If another company is taken in to supply then calor will tear all that up to get their equipment out. This will necessitate all houses being cut off for days, while this is done and the other company puts their equipment in place.

Now no one was consulted when calor put their equipment in place - obviously the builder got a good deal to allow it, and calor got a good deal as they now have a captive group of consumers. ( Yes I know I could have not bought the house, or looked into it more before doing so )

Calor get/got paid handsomely for their infrastructure, via the 'standing charge' - €23.31 for 79 days in my last bill, and are probably claiming depreciation for same - Surely it would be fairer if they showed how much it cost, deducted the money from the standing charge & the depreciation and charged the new supplier the difference. Calor don't loose out, and we don't have such a huge barrier put in the way of changing supplier.

The UK competition commission has realised this is a problem and changed the law on the issue - even though the results of their action haven't improved matters for those wishing to change.

By way of comparison, my 2nd last bill was for €375, thought it was a bit high as I really don't spend much time in the house, ie heating on 3 rads for 5 hours per day, five days per week (at most).
I was speaking to a guy I do some business with in Cork and he started giving out about his gas bill - on the gas network - I asked him how much it was, turns out it was for a similar time period as mine, but his bill was two thirds of mine. When I asked about his usage he said, his wife and baby were home all day, and heating on throughout old 3 story house...
Maybe he was exaggerating the amount of time the heating was on but it was a real eye opener as to how expensive calor are compared to gas off the grid.

ted1

That standing charge is comparable to mains gas.

With regards costs. The only way you can compare is by looking at the cost per KWH.

What are you being charged per Kwh and what is the standing charge?

The builder agreed to this so there was no need to consult people.

If you want to shop around you could look at buying large gas bottles and feeding them directly into your house .

odds_on

Sounds like each house pays the same as everyone gets the bill when the tank is filled.

Perhaps have meters installed?

Or change to electricity.

However, in your signing for the house, there was surely some clause about the gas supply and payment, was there not?

Is ther ea management company running the estate?

L1011

Firblog wrote: »

I don't really see how you can argue this, I don't pay Texaco/Esso money whether I use their product or not, also calor have their equipment installed throughout our estate, their main tank is buried under a very well maintained common area with trees etc surrounding.
If another company is taken in to supply then calor will tear all that up to get their equipment out. This will necessitate all houses being cut off for days, while this is done and the other company puts their equipment in place.

I doubt you pay Calor if you don't use their product. The standing charge you're paying is in no way unreasonable for a micro network; or any network in fact.

Tell them to disconnect you if you don't want to pay a standing charge. If you wanted to be able to change gas suppliers on a whim you should have bought a house with network gas, pure and simple.

Firblog wrote: »

Calor get/got paid handsomely for their infrastructure, via the 'standing charge' - €23.31 for 79 days in my last bill, and are probably claiming depreciation for same - Surely it would be fairer if they showed how much it cost, deducted the money from the standing charge & the depreciation and charged the new supplier the difference. Calor don't loose out, and we don't have such a huge barrier put in the way of changing supplier.

Are you just assuming that there even is another supplier who'll be cheaper? For starters, you're paying 29.5c/day standing charge. Bord Gais Energy's standing charge is 25.5c/day. That's a 4c/day surcharge for all the extra capital and ongoing costs of installing/maintaining a micronetwork.


You also have nothing to suggest that an alternative supplier would even *want* to use Calor's kit - its likely to be completely different from their own.

Firblog wrote: »

By way of comparison, my 2nd last bill was for €375, thought it was a bit high as I really don't spend much time in the house, ie heating on 3 rads for 5 hours per day, five days per week (at most).
I was speaking to a guy I do some business with in Cork and he started giving out about his gas bill - on the gas network - I asked him how much it was, turns out it was for a similar time period as mine, but his bill was two thirds of mine. When I asked about his usage he said, his wife and baby were home all day, and heating on throughout old 3 story house...
Maybe he was exaggerating the amount of time the heating was on but it was a real eye opener as to how expensive calor are compared to gas off the grid.

A random comparison is irrelevant - you need to see the price per unit; and then convert for the energy in each unit (you're not getting methane, you're getting most likely propane - different values).

Susan_Cork

Calor gas is a joke, customers in two housing estates in Rathcormac both supplied by bulk tanks are being charged up to 7 different rates per cubic metre varying from 2.7526 to 3.159. As a customer on the higher rate I am awaiting a reply from them since August 12th to explain the price inconsistency. They are the worse company to deal with.