UFC Fight Night 53 - Nelson vs Story

dulux99

When nights like UFC Dublin happen, SBG look great saying that they don't use game plans.

When days like yesterday happen, it makes you wonder about that philosophy.

darced

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gerryg80

dulux99 wrote: »

...SBG look great saying that they don't use game plans....

Not too sure about this, think I remember JK saying, this all depends on the fighter. i.e. with some fighters they plan a bit more, while with others not so much

raze_them_all_

gerryg80 wrote: »

Not too sure about this, think I remember JK saying, this all depends on the fighter. i.e. with some fighters they plan a bit more, while with others not so much

Ok connor, go out there, start with two spinning kicks, then slag him a little, upper cut, wheel kick.



Imagine trying to game plan for him

DeVore

Not having a game plan, is not the same as not having any adaptability. Its fine to "not have a game plan" provided you have the capacity to adapt on the fly. That didn't seem to be the case with Gunni... he didn't really show any alternative route to victory when his primary approach was countered.

The trouble with both Cathal and Gunni is that they are good, very good, but "good" isn't really enough now. "Good" got them here but they are going to encounter "excellent" and "astonishing" now. They're in the top division of the world at this point...
(of course its very easy for me to sit here munching crisps saying that, they've still achieved tremendous accomplishments but unfortunately the top of any sport is the same. I'm not knocking them, I want them both to be champs, but the top tier demands something phenomenal).

Gumbi

DeVore wrote: »

Not having a game plan, is not the same as not having any adaptability. Its fine to "not have a game plan" provided you have the capacity to adapt on the fly. That didn't seem to be the case with Gunni... he didn't really show any alternative route to victory when his primary approach was countered.

The trouble with both Cathal and Gunni is that they are good, very good, but "good" isn't really enough now. "Good" got them here but they are going to encounter "excellent" and "astonishing" now. They're in the top division of the world at this point...
(of course its very easy for me to sit here munching crisps saying that, they've still achieved tremendous accomplishments but unfortunately the top of any sport is the same. I'm not knocking them, I want them both to be champs, but the top tier demands something phenomenal).

Gunni and Cathal aren't even comparable. Gunni is far and away the better fighter.

El Guapo!

Personally, I don't buy the whole "no gameplan" thing. They may not have an explicit and rigid gameplan but they do prepare for each fight based on the opponents strengths/weaknesses.
I remember watching Conor's documentary and in the lead up to the Holloway fight, they were in a hotel room and JK was showing Conor a certain move. I can't remember exactly what was said but basically JK was saying "Holloway likes to do "X", so when he does, you can do this move......."
Clearly they do their research on their opponents and train accordingly. Going in with absolutely no gameplan is a recipe for disaster and SBG are a top team; there's no way they'd go in unprepared.

darced

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DeVore

Fair enough point but Cathal does have heart, you cant deny that. He needs to seriously sharpen his boxing but then he could challenge. That's the frustrating thing as a fan, they are all just lacking some sharpness in one area or another and then they could break through. I'm a huge Gunni fan, don't get me wrong, but a couple of weak points were exploited last night. I just want him to come back with them patched up and continue to motor up the rankings.

Gumbi

DeVore wrote: »

Fair enough point but Cathal does have heart, you cant deny that. He needs to seriously sharpen his boxing but then he could challenge. That's the frustrating thing as a fan, they are all just lacking some sharpness in one area or another and then they could break through. I'm a huge Gunni fan, don't get me wrong, but a couple of weak points were exploited last night. I just want him to come back with them patched up and continue to motor up the rankings.

Rick Story put together a hell of a fight and shut Gunni down. He deserves serious praise for that. It was no fluke he beat Hendricks either. bad stylistic matchup and an example of why Gunni will struggle vs strong wrestlers (to be very honest I'm surprised Gunni managed to land a few takedowns, but he just wasn't strong enough to hold Story down).

The side on stance is vulnerable to leg kicks, and I haven't seen any checking from Gunni. Conor is fairly good at this and has much better footwork and lateral movement (Gunni backs off in straight lines too often).

As for heart, heart is great but it doesn't beat better fighters. Was never a huge fan of trading brain cells for victories. Much prefer to see technique prevail and Pendred showed precious little Saturday night. Much the same as his previous few fights. If he can't muscle his opponent in the wrestling department his game devolves into slow and untechnical striking.

DeVore

That's true... I guess my point is you can learn striking, its much tougher to be taught heart.

Gumbi

DeVore wrote: »

That's true... I guess my point is you can learn striking, its much tougher to be taught heart.

Heart is over rated In my humble opinion. Most of thise guys are warriors by default and trading more brain cells than necessary shouldn't be encouraged.

monkey8

darced wrote: »

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Light years ahead in grappling terms yes, but not in striking.

They are both equally poor nthe striking department.

Nelson's has never displayed good stand up against decent opposition.
Very lacklustre and in no way ready for the top 5

Gumbi

monkey8 wrote: »

Light years ahead in grappling terms yes, but not in striking.

They are both equally poor nthe striking department.

Nelson's has never displayed good stand up against decent opposition.
Very lacklustre and in no way ready for the top 5

Disagree, Nelson has issues in standup (backing up in straight lines being the main one) but is sooooo much better than Cathal there. Nelson also is quite fast which helps him a lot there too.

mailburner

monkey8 wrote: »

Light years ahead in grappling terms yes, but not in striking.

They are both equally poor nthe striking department.

cathal is very poor in the striking department, amongst the weakest in
his division
you really can't compare their striking at all, think gunni striking is pretty good
but it's impossible to put away someone like story and he just made gunni look ordinary
gunnis striking will improve in time, cant say the same for cathal but as long
as he can somehow grind out wins nobody will care how pendred wins

stiffler123

Cathal is the exact same fighter he was in the TUF house. He's slow, predictable and his boxing is terrible. His best traits I suppose are his durability and grinding nature but I don't see him going far at all.

Gunnar on the other hand will come back stronger after this. No shame in losing to Rick Story at all. Story just had a better game plan and countered very well. Charles Rosa was really impressive even in defeat.

EuskalHerria

If I'm reading the last few posts correctly, and I'd like to think I am, people are suggesting we merge Cathal and Gunni into one fighter. Interesting.

monkey8

mailburner wrote: »

you really can't compare their striking at all, think gunni striking is pretty good
but it's impossible to put away someone like story and he just made gunni look wins nobody will care how pendred wins

The Cummings fight demonstrated the limitations of Nelson's striking.
Not anywhere near good enough.
Having better striking than pendred doesn't mean much!

mailburner

monkey8 wrote: »

The Cummings fight demonstrated the limitations of Nelson's striking.
Not anywhere near good enough.
Having better striking than pendred doesn't mean much!

we'll agree to disagree, he did nothing against cummings at all and that same laid back machida approach didnt work with story
I think his striking is good but there's just not enough volume, he's certainly quick enough
just a bad match up in story
there no way anyone can say nelson and pendred have equally bad stand up, their stand up is leagues apart imo

Glock Lesnar

Glock Lesnar wrote: »

I can't understand why everyone at SBG isn't a top level boxer, it's something that serves McGregor so well and there's a great boxing tradition in this country. Pendred's striking is glacial, it's slow and it's not technical. Gunnar's unorthodox style works but if he could switch it up to a traditional boxing style he could catch opponents off guard.

This!!! Times 1,000.
Inexplicable to me - especially as that's where the (commercial) game seems to be moving. Lots and lots of talent there, but lots and lots of hungry talent everywhere. Love that the SBG team seem to be so tight and supportive of each other but would also hope that they're not going to fall into a trap of being too insular.

Have to say Gunni has always been a class act though - as now as gracious in defeat as in victory. Likewise Pendred and da Hooligan - couldn't find sounder. True character shown by all of them and would suspect that's indicative of all of those they're surrounded by too. Really really hope they keep on learning, train smart, train safe and develop even more, helping to keep the sport growing in Ireland.

Gumbi

Cali_girl wrote: »

This!!! Times 1,000.
Inexplicable to me - especially as that's where the (commercial) game seems to be moving. Lots and lots of talent there, but lots and lots of hungry talent everywhere. Love that the SBG team seem to be so tight and supportive of each other but would also hope that they're not going to fall into a trap of being too insular.

Have to say Gunni has always been a class act though - as now as gracious in defeat as in victory. Likewise Pendred and da Hooligan - couldn't find sounder. True character shown by all of them and would suspect that's indicative of all of those they're surrounded by too. Really really hope they keep on learning, train smart, train safe and develop even more, helping to keep the sport growing in Ireland.

Erm... You realise McGregor actually did boxing for years as a teenager and continued training it in his early days of MMA? He even taught boxing a while back in SBG, though I highly doubt he does that anymore.

It's not a matter of just learning it. It takes years to reach that level of skill.

darced

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splashthecash

Is the Gunnar fight over?

Gumbi

Gumbi wrote: »

Erm... You realise McGregor actually did boxing for years as a teenager and continued training it in his early days of MMA? He even taught boxing a while back in SBG, though I highly doubt he does that anymore.

It's not a matter of just learning it. It takes years to reach that level of skill.

Absolutely - was only referring to the FN53/54 guys above though. McGregors' boxing and footwork is stunning!!! Are you kind of implying that you think that the arts learnt early e.g. boxing/ movement or that kind of super strength wrestling we see from the US high-school wrestlers is never 'catch-upable-with' though? Just a curious fan, long time ago ex-am boxer here btw…

Easy Rod

splashthecash wrote: »

Is the Gunnar fight over?

Only about 24 hours ago.

splashthecash

Easy Rod wrote: »

Only about 24 hours ago.

Bugger - thought it was tonight

EuskalHerria

splashthecash wrote: »

Bugger - thought it was tonight

You didn't miss much. After their respective performances, people were mainly talking about amalgamating Pendred and Gunni into a single super fighter.

crybaby

I though Pendred won his fight or did I read the results wrong?

Mr. Loverman

crybaby wrote: »

I though Pendred won his fight or did I read the results wrong?

He won but it was a controversial decision and his performance was (once again) shocking. His career in the UFC will be over very soon unless he can change his fighting style and learn to punch.

Ian Whelan

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

He won but it was a controversial decision and his performance was (once again) shocking. His career in the UFC will be over very soon unless he can change his fighting style and learn to punch.

Pendred still landed more strikes than the other guy. I know he will have to improve before his next fight but winning is a guaranteed recipe for staying in the UFC.

yourdeadwright

I know its been said before and seems like the in thing to say when a fighter loses but surely if Gunni wants to be a champion and go as far as his can he needs to drop in weight, Is it true he doesn't cut any weight at all ?

Gumbi

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I know its been said before and seems like the in thing to say when a fighter loses but surely if Gunni wants to be a champion and go as far as his can he needs to drop in weight, Is it true he doesn't cut any weight at all ?

He cuts very little. He weighed 175 in a catchweight vs someone so you can imagine he weighs in or around that in the cage which is nothing (most welters weigh 185-200 in the cage). Not to mention he could lose a small bit of fat too.

DeVore

A single super fighter who has great wrestling and ground game but still needs to work a lot on his stand up??!

monkey8

Glock Lesnar wrote: »

I can't understand why everyone at SBG isn't a top level boxer.

No offence intended but that's a ridiculous thing to say!

You can have the best trainers in the world and train every day but if you don't have those innate qualities it takes to be a top level boxer then you will never be world class.
And it's not just athletic ability, it's timing, coordination etc.

I suspect pendred doesn't possess these innate abilities (he has other good qualities however)and his striking has probably plateau'd to what is probably close to his optimum level.

Gumbi

monkey8 wrote: »

No offence intended but that's a ridiculous thing to say!

You can have the best trainers in the world and train every day but if you don't have those innate qualities it takes to be a top level boxer then you will never be world class.
And it's not just athletic ability, it's timing, coordination etc.

I suspect pendred doesn't possess these innate abilities (he has other good qualities however)and his striking has probably plateau'd to what is probably close to his optimum level.

These can be learned. Not a fan of "innate ability" or "natural talent" as phrases in general.

John_D80

Gumbi wrote: »

These can be learned. Not a fan of "innate ability" or "natural talent" as phrases in general.

I would agree to a point but it's also worth pointing out that it is far far more difficult to teach an adult to be a decent boxer than it is to teach a child or young teen.

An adult will master the basics quicker but their potential ceiling, in terms of talent, is far lower as a general rule.

I've sometimes thought this may be part of Cathal Pendred's problem. But on the flip side, you have freaks like Sergio Martinez who didn't box until his early twenties as far as I know.

Henry9

Gumbi wrote: »

These can be learned. Not a fan of "innate ability" or "natural talent" as phrases in general.

Just because they're not fashionable at the moment doesn't mean they're not very real factors in success.

Any technically demanding sport will have athletes who are more of a 'natural' than others. Call it talent or innate or gifted or whatever.
I can understand coaches playing it down to an extent, but it doesn't mean it's not there.

And athletic ability can't be 'learned'. If you don't have it take it up with your parents.

Dtp1979

Henry9 wrote: »

Just because they're not fashionable at the moment doesn't mean they're not very real factors in success.

Any technically demanding sport will have athletes who are more of a 'natural' than others. Call it talent or innate or gifted or whatever.
I can understand coaches playing it down to an extent, but it doesn't mean it's not there.

And athletic ability can't be 'learned'. If you don't have it take it up with your parents.

Totally true. Every sport has them. Michael Jordan, Michael Schumacher, Jon jones, Rhonda rousey, Lionel messi, etc etc

DeVore

Then there is physiological elements too. Certain nationalities are predisposed to certain sports because of a difference in the combinations of muscle fibre types.

The thing about starting young isn't entirely to do with the plasticity of the brain at that age, it also has to do with sheer volume of time. Something very odd happens around the 10,000 hours of practise mark where the routine (be it piano playing to wood turning) goes from conscious thought at some level, to sub conscious routine. (There's a very good book about this topic called Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell).
Starting as a kid gets you a head start towards knocking up those 10,000 hours. There are obviously some people who seem to short circuit this but for the vast majority of people that's the required practise time.

Mellor

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Totally true. Every sport has them. Michael Jordan, Michael Schumacher, Jon jones, Rhonda rousey, Lionel messi, etc etc

How do you know it's natural talent and they haven't just put in the required work?

I'm not denying the role genetics plays in sport. Or the fact that some people just move better in certain ways. But I also think talk if natural ability really undermines the sheer volume of work out in to get to that level.

Dtp1979

Mellor wrote: »

How do you know it's natural talent and they haven't just put in the required work?

I'm not denying the role genetics plays in sport. Or the fact that some people just move better in certain ways. But I also think talk if natural ability really undermines the sheer volume of work out in to get to that level.

I think all of the above athletes have "it" plus they put in the work behind the scenes too obviously

stiffler123

Mellor wrote: »

How do you know it's natural talent and they haven't just put in the required work?

I'm not denying the role genetics plays in sport. Or the fact that some people just move better in certain ways. But I also think talk if natural ability really undermines the sheer volume of work out in to get to that level.

Not everyone is born with sledgehammer fists and one punch KO power though. Those who are born with it have a huge advantage in mma.

Tobyglen

Mellor wrote: »

How do you know it's natural talent and they haven't just put in the required work?

I'm not denying the role genetics plays in sport. Or the fact that some people just move better in certain ways. But I also think talk if natural ability really undermines the sheer volume of work out in to get to that level.

Genetics/natural talent,

At a count in 2012, out of 83 guys that have ran under 10 seconds only 1 has been white. Do you really think the black guys are working harder? Natural talent.

Gumbi

stiffler123 wrote: »

Not everyone is born with sledgehammer fists and one punch KO power though. Those who are born with it have a huge advantage in mma.

You can get a heck of a long way with practice, trust me.

EuskalHerria

Tobyglen wrote: »

out of 83 guys that have ran under 10 seconds only 1 has been white.

Really? I'm white and I can run under 10 seconds.

Dtp1979

EuskalHerria wrote: »

Really? I'm white and I can run under 10 seconds.

In 100metres?

EuskalHerria

Dtp1979 wrote: »

In 100metres?

Ah well, you're changing the rules now.

Mellor

Tobyglen wrote: »

Genetics/natural talent,

At a count in 2012, out of 83 guys that have ran under 10 seconds only 1 has been white. Do you really think the black guys are working harder? Natural talent.

I never said genetics don't play a part. We are talking about skills such as grappling and boxing.

The power and fast twitch muscle fibres required to run that fast is genetics, it's not a skill or a "talent". While I wouldn't be as ignorant to say there's no skill in running, it's a much more primal movement than boxing (what we are actually talking about).

To put it another way, hypothetically, transplant Usain Bolts brain into a random persons head. There would be nothing special about their 100m sprint.
Do the same with Mayweathers brain, they won't be the best in the world, but I bet they be a pretty handy boxer.

And, before somebody misses the point again, there are genetic abilities that play a part in top level boxing too. The elite still have these natural advantages - speed, power, stamina, etc. Band that's what separates them from the rest. But fundamentally, the skills of boxing are learned abilities, ingrained over countless hours.
Cathal has poor striking but he's an athletic guy, it's not his weakness because he lacks some genetic ability. At this point he is firmly in the range where technique is failing him. Technique can always be improved.

Ian Whelan

chrisbonnie wrote: »

JK must be watching a different fight to me. He's just told gunni to do the same thing he's been doing because story is losing the decision.

Terrible corner work

I watched the fight again last night. I'm no expert but even I knew Nelson was losing. Surprised more was not said about this advice. The advice he should have been giving was: "You are losing, you have to knock him out/submit him". If I was Nelson I would be a bit pissed off.

Mellor

Ian Whelan wrote: »

I watched the fight again last night. I'm no expert but even I knew Nelson was losing. Surprised more was not said about this advice. The advice he should have been giving was: "You are losing, you have to knock him out/submit him". If I was Nelson I would be a bit pissed off.

I'd like to think that John knew he was losing too. I assumed "keep doing what you are doing" meant "stay calm, takedown if the opening comes, submission". As that was clearly Gunnar's plan of attack throughout.

Regardless of Johns comments. Gunnar obviously knew he lost the 4th. He even if he thought he was 3-1 up, he surely would rather the sub. John's comments were to facilitate this rather than what he actually believed to be true, imo of course.