Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

Tail Docker

h2005 wrote: »

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.607888
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QiV9xn0RbI

I watched on, women beaten, girls beaten, old men beaten, kids shot, families terrorised. To argue on would be a waste of breath. Israel, the brother of apartheid era South Africa. I wonder will there be a Palestinian Nelson mandela? Or would he just be shot and silenced. South Africa drew the line a good way before artillery and missiles. Shameful.

Wild_Dogger

True , True !

But I'm sure the management heard about it and don't want a repeat of it.

If enough of this happened then maybe the staff wouldn't have to stock their shelves with Israeli produce.

Saying that, I would prefer to write to managment requesting a list of Israeli goods, noting that you wish to continue shopping with the firm but would not wish to buy Israeli produce.

h2005

35cent wrote: »

If that was their policy then Gaza would have been a pile of rubble a long time ago.

There's only so many hours in the day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCGOUEO-V6Y

Davarus Walrus

Nodin wrote: »

A unified Palestinian leadership? That makes sidelining them and playing them off against each other difficult. Remember that Israel wants the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. The last thing it wants is a unified Palestinian front opposing them.




Because when your ally has a veto on the UNSC, you don't have to care.

Do the leadership in Gaza and the West Bank not communicate? Again, I'm fairly uneducated when it comes to all this stuff, but I'd presume they both developed a mutual disliked of the Israeli's?

And again, I'm genuinely not trying to be antagonistic; but what 'win' do Israel get from attacking Gaza at the moment? It's not PR; sympathy for the Jewish cause, or a desire to invest in Israeli companies. Why do Israel send their young lads to fight?

user2011

35cent wrote: »

Like I said in the other thread, I don't see the point of these offensives personally. I know they are responding to rocket attacks but they don't seem effective despite all the damage and death caused.

Look at it this way how long will it take the people of Gaza to begin to get back what they have lost in this offensive? By the time the next offensive starts they won't be anywhere near it and then Gaza will again be even more wrecked the next time.

Israel has a strangle hold on what goes into Gaza what Gaza needs and what Israel thinks they need...

No they weren't responding to rockets, firstly Israel got their backs up by a unity government between Hamas/Fatah and went into the West Bank raided homes/businesses, 8/9 people got killed, rearrested a lot of "Hamas" fighters without cause (nearly 2 years nothing happening) IDF even being happy with Hamas for doing so well reducing the amount of rockets being fired by other groups after Hamas set up a special police force to counter the problem.

What we've been seeing these past three weeks is on Israel's hands.

hju6

Chile and Peru have now joined Brazil and Ecuador in recalling their envoys to Israel

"Chile notes with great concern and dismay that such military operations, which at this stage of development are subject to a collective punishment against the Palestinian civilian population in Gaza do not respect fundamental rules of international humanitarian law."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.607915

Gringo180

hju6 wrote: »

Chile and Peru have now joined Brazil and Ecuador in recalling their envoys to Israel

"Chile notes with great concern and dismay that such military operations, which at this stage of development are subject to a collective punishment against the Palestinian civilian population in Gaza do not respect fundamental rules of international humanitarian law."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.607915

I was just about to post this. Whats sickening is that the EU and US have imposed many sanctions against Russia and havent done a tap to even condemn the Israeli terrorists. Talk about hypocrisy of the highest order, truely disgusting!!

Little CuChulainn

Wild_Dogger wrote: »

True , True !

But I'm sure the management heard about it and don't want a repeat of it.

If enough of this happened then maybe the staff wouldn't have to stock their shelves with Israeli produce.

You understand that that is just basically terrorism right? It's no way to move people to your side.

Karl Stein

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

But what is the end objective of it all? It it Israel ruling Gaza?

Israel already rules Gaza. Gaza is an enormous internment camp - only for tunnels supplying it with its needs it would be immeasurably more impoverished.

The endgame is uncontested control of 'greater Israel' i.e. the territory north of Egypt, west of the Jordan and south of Lebanon/Syria. It just so happens that there are a several million Palestinians within those borders that need to be 'managed'.

Tail Docker

h2005 wrote: »

There's only so many hours in the day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCGOUEO-V6Y

That ends the argument that "if they were truly ruthless they'd just flatten it, but they don't"...seems, pretty much, they do.

user2011

35cent wrote: »

Like I said in the other thread, I don't see the point of these offensives personally. I know they are responding to rocket attacks but they don't seem effective despite all the damage and death caused.

Why would they show their true colours to the world when they can do it bit by bit and have their friends on UNSC block anything that can actually stop this from happening..

If Israel was to decide to go down the road of just flattening Gaza with a bomb would the US still be able to go UNSC and block a resolution and think they would still have standing in the world?

Spring Onion

AnonoBoy wrote: »

*Deep Breath*


I think it's bad what's happening.




Ok. I'm out.

How dare you!!!?

Judgement Day

Wild_Dogger wrote: »

True , True !

But I'm sure the management heard about it and don't want a repeat of it.

If enough of this happened then maybe the staff wouldn't have to stock their shelves with Israeli produce.

Saying that, I would prefer to write to managment requesting a list of Israeli goods, noting that you wish to continue shopping with the firm but would not wish to buy Israeli produce.

Apart from the scarcity of Israeli goods in our shops anyway, I don't favour this type of action - too reminiscent of what went on in Nazi Germany. What's needed, not just in this situation but in the Russia/Ukraine, North Korea etc. is for the leading figures (Benjamin Netanyahu, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, Putin, Kim Jong-un etc.) to be informed that they will be held personally responsible for all actions undertaken by their forces.

Spring Onion

Energy and Money

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12971-the-truth-about-israels-new-war-on-gaza--the-energy-rush

Lets go back to 2000 when British Gas (BG) discovered that Gaza sat on an estimated $4 billion worth of natural gas. Needless to say that this discovery came as a shock to Israel, as suddenly Gaza, this little slither of land which Palestinians have been discarded upon, this purgatory which Zionists imagined to crush Palestinians' hopes and dreams, became a key geo-strategic priority. Come hail and high waters, Israel would have to gain access to those resources.

Since BG made its first estimation, it was established that Gaza's gas reserves are far greater than first anticipated. According to Michel Chossudovsky, a Canadian economist and prominent analyst, Gaza is basking in as much wealth as the State of Kuwait. Rather than live in abject poverty, Gaza should be a vibrant business hub, a brilliant economic success. Instead, it has been withering away under Israel's blockade, forced to scrap and beg for its daily bread, its people reduced to servitude.

hju6

S.O wrote: »

Was doing a small bit of shopping in a local tesco store this past saturday when a crowd of protesters entered the store shouting at the staff regarding Israeli goods, having a peaceful protest march about an issue is one thing, but I dont agree with shouting at staff in work over something the staff have nothing to do with, at the end of the day the staff only stack the shelves and sell the products they don't decide where the the products are imported from, the protesters didn,t do themselves any favours whatsoever with the way they carried on, from talking to people in private conversations peoples opinions are down on them. if you want to try persuade people not to buy and boycott Israeli products or not handle Israeli goods in their place of work shouting and roaring at people in a supermarket store isn,t the way to persuade anyone.

TESCO’S Irish stores no longer sell fruits grown in illegal Israeli settlements — and they plan to end the practice in the UK too.

http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/news/5784923/Tesco-Weve-axed-fruit-from-Israel.html?teaser=true

Son Of A Vidic

Last Saturday night a young Palestinian woman was killed in an air strike on her Gaza home. As her family frantically pulled her from the rubble, they knew she was dead and they also assumed her unborn baby was dead. By the time she arrived at the ER and judging by the length of time that had passed. Conventional medical wisdom suggested her baby was indeed dead and could not have survived. For whatever reason, the medics performed a caesarean section and delivered a healthy baby girl. The surviving family members called her after her dead mother and a wee girl entered this world who will never know her mother. Born into a hell on this earth.

As a medical person myself, the report and the footage brought a tear to the eye. In the past my colleagues and I have tried desperately to resuscitate people. Even when we've known deep down we've lost them. So I can really understand the desperate hope those Nurses & Doctors had, when they performed that C-section. Especially knowing full well it was very likely the baby had died. So for me that kid is a miracle, a symbol of hope for the future. Don't ask my why I think that but I do.

Right now, this crazy Zionist government and their fanaticism might be inflicting terrible death and destruction on the Palestinians, but they are losing their own 'war'. Yes in two or three years the Israeli's will likely create another pretext for a 'war'. But eventually, it will only be a matter of time before this state grows up, matures and finally realises that negotiation and not military oppression resolves conflicts. And when they come to that realisation and take those steps, they'll have guaranteed their own future and security like never before.

Davarus Walrus

Karl Stein wrote: »

Israel already rules Gaza. Gaza is an enormous internment camp - only for tunnels supplying it with its needs it would be immeasurably more impoverished.

The endgame is uncontested control of 'greater Israel' i.e. the territory north of Egypt, west of the Jordan and south of Lebanon/Syria. It just so happens that there are a several million Palestinians within those borders that need to be 'managed'.

Thanks. So why don't the Israeli's just take over these territories? They have the military prowess to do so if they wanted. If they wanted all this land then why don't they get it?

hju6

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Thanks. So why don't the Israeli's just take over these territories? They have the military prowess to do so if they wanted. If they wanted all this land then why don't they get it?

They are

comongethappy

hju6 wrote: »

They are

Are there settlements planned for Gaza?

Spring Onion

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Thanks. So why don't the Israeli's just take over these territories? They have the military prowess to do so if they wanted. If they wanted all this land then why don't they get it?

http://images.alarabiya.net/israel-palestine_map_19225_2469.jpg.

hju6

comongethappy wrote: »

Are there settlements planned for Gaza?

Probally lots of illegal ones

Karl Stein

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

So why don't the Israeli's just take over these territories?

They have. The West Bank is being systematically colonised and carved up. The problem is what to do with the Palestinians - particularly those left in the West Bank. The West Bank is strategically important to the Israelis because it's the 'high ground'. The problem with this strategically important territory is that there are a few million Palestinians living there.

Check this video out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0

Davarus Walrus

hju6 wrote: »

They are

Thanks. But again, I'm wondering why Israel just didn't invade Gaza before that. And why they invested in this Iron Dome system if they just wanted to take over the region? I've tried to make sense of complex geopolitics from the Soviet Union through Yugoslavia. But this Israel invading Gaza thing has me mightily confused.

DeadHand

Of all the conflicts going on in the world I find this the saddest for the simple reason that I see no obvious end in sight. Neither nation is going to jump into the sea and co-existence appears impossible, at least while the present authorities are at the helm on both sides.

Just as desperation and anger pushed the Palestinians into the hands of the openly exterminationistic Hamas, fear and insecurity pushed the Israeli people into electing a hawkish, militaristic government. The result is carnage.

So much is admirable about Israel. But she does herself no favours by behaving like a mad cow. I don't agree with her ultra aggression nor would I attempt to justify it but I think I understand some of the reasons for it.

Israel suffers a very real existential threat on several fronts in an increasingly unstable, violent region where a fundamentalist, murderous, jihadist version of Islam is making gains at a terrifying speed. There is a believe among the current ruling elite in Israel that if they do not retaliate ferociously to any and all provocation and defend themselves viciously that will be the first nail in the coffin of their nation. The Jews of Europe, for the most part, walked quietly and submissively to their deaths during the Holocaust. This instills a pitiless determination in what are for a large part their descendants not to be seen as weak.

Again, these are not excuses or attempts to justify what is a clear and tragic over reaction but just some points to consider.

Ironically, by responding with such unnecessarily brutal force they are playing into their enemies hands by forcing the Gazan people to rally around Hamas, for lack of an alternative, as well as isolating themselves globally in a diplomatic sense.

Judgement Day

comongethappy wrote: »

Are there settlements planned for Gaza?

They been down that road before so no. This is an ill thought out, punitive attack to try and break Hamas in the Gaza Strip. No matter what the Israeli leadership say now about a long war, they will pull back sooner rather than later as the increasing death toll in their armed forces causes political unrest at home.

comongethappy

hju6 wrote: »

Probally lots of illegal ones

Every settlement is illegal if someone else owns the land.

comongethappy

Judgement Day wrote: »

They been down that road before so no. This is an ill thought out, punitive attack to try and break Hamas in the Gaza Strip. No matter what the Israeli leadership say now about a long war, they will pull back sooner rather than later as the increasing death toll in their armed forces causes political unrest at home.

Indeed, they won't colonize.
Occupation will rack up their casualties.
Hamas have inflicted significant casualties on the IDF when they counter attack.

Their only choice is withdrawal..... Wait 4 years, blow it all up again.

Davarus Walrus

Karl Stein wrote: »

They have. The West Bank is being systematically colonised and carved up. The problem is what to do with the Palestinians - particularly those left in the West Bank. The West Bank is strategically important to the Israelis because it's the 'high ground'. The problem with this strategically important territory is that there are a few million Palestinians living there.

Check this video out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0

I don't like that video. It's a very lazy argument. It's the type of thing produced by a spotty Israeli teenager after drinking too much beer. Ireland - of all places - should know the dangers of allowing nationalism to muddy the waters of thinking.

WellThen?

I can't believe this is what the media in the States is delivering to the public. Even the banner "Sympathy for the terrorists"

It's difficult to watch, the sheer stupidity/ignorance and lack of respect from Hannity is unbelievable. Fox news is a piece of sh*t.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1m5xrlBHRs

Nodin

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Do the leadership in Gaza and the West Bank not communicate? Again, I'm fairly uneducated when it comes to all this stuff, but I'd presume they both developed a mutual disliked of the Israeli's??

Of course, but they have differing policies than Fatah, who are secular and far more corrupt. Think of the way the Apartheid Government played "coloured" against black African, Zulu vs the rest of the population.

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

And again, I'm genuinely not trying to be antagonistic; but what 'win' do Israel get from attacking Gaza at the moment? It's not PR; sympathy for the Jewish cause, or a desire to invest in Israeli companies. Why do Israel send their young lads to fight?

I've explained this earlier.

Nodin

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

I don't like that video. It's a very lazy argument. It's the type of thing produced by a spotty Israeli teenager after drinking too much beer. Ireland - of all places - should know the dangers of allowing nationalism to muddy the waters of thinking.

They can do more or less what they want until theres a sea change in US policy, that's the grim truth. The bright side is that such things have happened before (with Apartheid South Africa).

Geomy

I don't agree with the Israel response.
I think it's too shock and awe and too many children and civilians are killed and maimed, but I think if any of these jihadist's moments get out of control Israel have the power to push them back.

These jihadist's are no friends of the West....

CYHSN

My name is URL wrote: »

Israel claim that they give 3-5 minutes 'warning' (knock-on-the-roof) for people to vacate their homes before shelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs5jNoCeOBA

3-5 minutes? :rolleyes:

Murderous scumbags

Saw this on liveleak yesterday and on there too the video was edited to make it seem that way, go to the 23 second mark and look at the moving wire at the bottom of the screen People on liveleak pointed that out.

Nodin

Geomy wrote: »

I don't agree with the Israel response.
I think it's too shock and awe and too many children and civilians are killed and maimed, but I think if any of these jihadist's moments get out of control Israel have the power to push them back.

These jihadist's are no friends of the West....

Hamas are not some al-Qaeda offshoot.

Manic Moran

My name is URL wrote: »

Israel claim that they give 3-5 minutes 'warning' (knock-on-the-roof) for people to vacate their homes before shelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs5jNoCeOBA

3-5 minutes? :rolleyes:

Murderous scumbags

Try watching a video which hasn't been edited. Look at both the smoke from the first impact, and the waving cables/rags on the antenna at the bottom left at about 20/21 seconds. You can see where the video splice was.

Although I'm not convinced by the effectiveness of roof-knocking (How do you know it's your roof that got knocked?), the munition does cost a few thousands of dollars. There is no percentage in the Israelis dropping it, and then not waiting before dropping the live bomb.

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Occupation 101 explains the history or the conflict very well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr9CIGeePXU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I am a little reluctant to hope for an unbiased assessment from a video entitled "Occupation 101"

Nodin

Manic Moran wrote: »

I am a little reluctant to hope for an unbiased assessment from a video entitled "Occupation 101"

Don't tell me you're denying there's an occupation now.....

LadyMayBelle

I work in the same building as a synagogue and I gotta say I'm struggling hugely: being the only non jewish person in the village as such, and working with Israelis. I've avoided looking at the Pray for Israel posters that have shot up, and today read the Jewish News which advises to "turn on Fox, Sky and CNN" as the BBC is "bias".

Geomy

Nodin wrote: »

Hamas are not some al-Qaeda offshoot.

What are they then ?

Nodin

Geomy wrote: »

What are they then ?

A Palestinian sunni muslim religious group set up in the 1980's, primarily nationalistic.

comongethappy

The Daily Show tried to get into it.... Gave up.

Jordan Klepper... fantastic correspondent.

http://youtu.be/zmCKZYKsiGM

Wild_Dogger

Judgement Day wrote: »

Apart from the scarcity of Israeli goods in our shops anyway, I don't favour this type of action - too reminiscent of what went on in Nazi Germany. What's needed, not just in this situation but in the Russia/Ukraine, North Korea etc. is for the leading figures (Benjamin Netanyahu, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, Putin, Kim Jong-un etc.) to be informed that they will be held personally responsible for all actions undertaken by their forces.

Ah but your forgetting that any action by EU will be countered by the US - who apply a veto over any action put into motion

Israel will not be accountable to anyone Im afraid !

Johro

user2011 wrote: »

The Israeli op has taken 44% of the Gaza strip by way of "a buffer zone" :rolleyes:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-takes-away-44-of-gaza-land-herds-gazans-into-remaining-area/5393825

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/28/as-israel-enforces-its-buffer-zone-gaza-shrinks-by-40-per-cent.html



More people being squeezed into an even smaller bit of land while it continues to get destroyed.

Not only that, they are doing what they did in their last war on Gaza, which is to systematically destroy its infrastructure. They destroyed its water supplies, drove tanks through crop fields, now they've destroyed the power plant. This has f#ck all to do with tunnels and rockets and Hamas 'terrorists', it's about making life in the Gaza Strip unsustainable. The Palestinians will spend the next five or six years or so rebuilding, they'll have to smuggle materials in through their tunnels, it will be a long and arduous process, then get ready for another round of devastation from Israeli missiles.

My name is URL

Israeli Official To Obama: ‘Leave Us Alone’

A top Israeli official wants President Barack Obama to stop meddling with the Jewish state during its conflict with Hamas in Gaza.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/07/29/israeli-official-to-obama-leave-us-alone/

You couldn't make it up really

If only the US would leave Israel alone and stop meddling in its affairs... it'd be a far more even conflict then

Sonics2k

Geomy wrote: »

What are they then ?

The result of 40 years of invasion by another state.

Any group of people which comes under constant attack resulting in a massive loss of life, land and seeing innocent people die will always result in them turning to extremes to see an enemy defeated.

I do not support Hamas at all, but I also cannot blame many of their now followers for joining them in a fight against Israel.

In all honesty, if the same were happening here in Ireland, you can damn well bet I'd fight back too. I think most people would.

Kylo Ren

Photo of Gaza from today.

The Th!ng

In the past The IDF have purposely targeted children in Gaza. Listen to what Miko Peled, author of 'The General's Son' has to say at about the 15-16 minute mark in the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4ZfnpN4Dfc

P_1

WellThen? wrote: »

I can't believe this is what the media in the States is delivering to the public. Even the banner "Sympathy for the terrorists"

It's difficult to watch, the sheer stupidity/ignorance and lack of respect from Hannity is unbelievable. Fox news is a piece of sh*t.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

That's a ridiculous piece of 'journalism'. Basically it's "answer the question the way I want you to answer it or I'll yell over you and cut you off".

My name is URL

Manic Moran wrote: »

Try watching a video which hasn't been edited. Look at both the smoke from the first impact, and the waving cables/rags on the antenna at the bottom left at about 20/21 seconds. You can see where the video splice was

I'm willing to believe it may have been edited or have spin attached to it.. like I am for every single video that emerges from either 'side'. Both are known for it so it'd be foolish not to have some degree of skepticism.

It has however been widely reported already that the 3-5 minute warning period hasn't been observed.

Although I'm not convinced by the effectiveness of roof-knocking (How do you know it's your roof that got knocked?), the munition does cost a few thousands of dollars. There is no percentage in the Israelis dropping it, and then not waiting before dropping the live bomb.

That's where the argument for using it should begin and end really. It's literally a smokescreen for the indiscriminate murder and displacement of civilians.

Karl Stein

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

I don't like that video.

I don't like it either - it's from a fairly right-wing Zionist organisation and so will reflect its stance/values.

It is however an insight into how Israeli strategists and planners consider the West Bank/Palestinians.

DyldeBrill

Anyone see Jon Snow's interview today with Michael Oren? Just couldn't give a clear concrete answer to why so many civilians were being killed. He had nothing but roundabout explanations. Would have liked to have seen Jon Snow press him a bit more.

Interview is below for anyone who wants to see

http://www.channel4.com/news/hamas-gaza-genocidal-human-shields-israel-oren-ambassador