Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

Little CuChulainn

smurgen wrote: »

Okay you seem to like discussing legal frameworks and laws of war and the discussions of such.tell me,the four palestinian kids that were shelled on the beach by an Israeli ship,was this in your opinion a lawful action and if not Do you think we are likely to see any military personnel facing time behind bars because of it?

I'd be more interested int he 13 year old girl shot in the leg and then executed or the 11 year old shot in the back today. Incidents like the one on the beach will be explained away as mistakes but you cannot explain away an execution of a child.

hatrickpatrick

A Primal Nut wrote: »

It's a difficult moral question without an easy answer.

Allowing a precedent to be set where all violent organisations have to do is to set themselves up inside schools and hospitals in order to protect themselves and allow them to do as they please knowing they can't be targeted...well that's dangerous too.

Not exactly, it simply necessitates targeted military action against specific targets as opposed to bombing something from the air. The Americans managed it well enough when raiding Bin Laden's gaff in a Pakistani village.

Zebra3

Manic Moran wrote: »

It's an interesting legal question as the MoD is usually technically a civilian agency, however, I personally believe that yes, the MoD building would be fair game given its use. If I have time later I'll see what I can discover. No, it doesn't make the civilian population fair game.

I have no idea what you claim you are gonna discover, but Israel's bombs are not accurate and slaughter civilians. Therefore it seems by that standard of their fanboys, all Hamas have to do is say they're targeting Israel's war machine in central Tel Aviv.

Of course maybe Israel's bombs are accurate and their war on Palestinian civilians from the 40s continues....

Zebra3

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm not going to argue the morals with you, as who am I to say that your principles on the matter are wrong? The practical implications, however, are another kettle of fish and the structure in place does result in the occasional wrongful conviction, and the laws of war do not impose a requirement to avoid in all cases the known deaths of innocents. The laws as written are the framework in which we must operate.

The question on the Ministry of Defense is caveated by the issue that if Hamas points rockets at the building, there is no reasonable expectation that the rockets will land even close to the place, so lobbing rockets at Tel Aviv claiming 'we're aiming for IDF HQ' doesn't fly. If they're able to drive up with a large truck bomb, though, and in the process of trying to blow up the building also kill people walking on the footpath on the other side of the road, that one can't really be argued against.

So you've no issue with the suicide bombing attack on the US embassy in Beirut in the early 80s?

Manic Moran

smurgen wrote: »

Okay you seem to like discussing legal frameworks and laws of war and the discussions of such.tell me,the four palestinian kids that were shelled on the beach by an Israeli ship,was this in your opinion a lawful action and if not Do you think we are likely to see any military personnel facing time behind bars because of it?

The last question is easiest. No, I don't. Even if the incident was decided to be an unlawful killing, on past experience I doubt that the Hammer of Yaweh is going to come down on the shooters like a ton of bricks. Convictions, maybe, jail time, probably not. As for the question of lawful or not, I am not in a position to make such a determination.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I'd be more interested int he 13 year old girl shot in the leg and then executed or the 11 year old shot in the back today. Incidents like the one on the beach will be explained away as mistakes but you cannot explain away an execution of a child.

If the first instance is the one I'm thinking of, then even the Israelis thought he had gone too far, though I do not understand their supposed reasoning resulting in the relatively minor charges. The second one requires more information, I presume it refers to Khalil Mohammed al-Anati. From what I can gather, IDF were dealing with a disturbance nearby, it seems that he was hit by a stray round.

Zebra3 wrote: »

So you've no issue with the suicide bombing attack on the US embassy in Beirut in the early 80s?

Of course I do. It was a civilian diplomatic mission. The barracks bombing a couple months later (which killed a lot more people) I've no issue with.

tayto lover

Yeah the IDF seem to have an awful lot of "stray rounds".
Stray bombs, stray beatings etc etc
But the victims seem to remain the same i.e. Palestinians and usually the innocent ones.

The Th!ng

tayto lover wrote: »

Yeah the IDF seem to have an awful lot of "stray rounds".
Stray bombs, stray beatings etc etc
But the victims seem to remain the same i.e. Palestinians and usually the innocent ones.

Yeah, amazing isn't it that no "stray" bomb in Gaza ever kills any IDF members.

bumper234

tayto lover wrote: »

Yeah the IDF seem to have an awful lot of "stray rounds".
Stray bombs, stray beatings etc etc
But the victims seem to remain the same i.e. Palestinians and usually the innocent ones.

Stray rounds, stray tank shells, stray missiles, yet very few of the pro Israeli crowd willing to admit that either the shooting/shelling/bombing is deliberate or that the IDF employ inept gunners.

The Th!ng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W00RAwxL7Oo

Zebra3

tayto lover wrote: »

Yeah the IDF seem to have an awful lot of "stray rounds".
Stray bombs, stray beatings etc etc
But the victims seem to remain the same i.e. Palestinians and usually the innocent ones.

"Stray house demolitions" too.

But only against Palestinian "terror" suspects and not against any Jews who are suspected of having abducted a Palestinain teenager and burning him alive.

Some people might even think that "the most moral army in the world" are actually nothing but a disgusting bunch of vile racists.

bumper234

http://www.imemc.org/article/68810?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PalestineNews+%28Palestine+News%29

Palestinian medical sources have reported that four Palestinians, including two children, have been killed and dozens injured, after the army fired missiles into several areas in the Gaza Strip.

bumper234

Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors of Nazi genocide condemn Gaza massacre

http://www.imemc.org/article/68811?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PalestineNews+%28Palestine+News%29

As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine. We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world.

We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia.

Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to promote blatant falsehoods used to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of nearly 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.

We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. Wen call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!

Signed,

Hajo Meyer, survivor of Auschwitz, The Netherlands.

AND MANY OTHERS

Chance The Rapper

Another ceasefire for 72 hours starting this evening and peace talks tomorrow if it lasts through the night

TommyKnocker

Chance The Rapper wrote: »

Another ceasefire for 72 hours starting this evening and peace talks tomorrow if it lasts through the night

While I am thankful for the ceasefire and hope that it lasts to give some respite to the people of Gaza, if the Israeli's are going into this new round of peace talks with the same "our way or the highway" attitude, this this is nothing more that a cynical ploy to try to garner some positive PR. If the Israeli's are not willing to lift the blockade and discuss a 2 state solution, then nothing will change for the Palestinians and it will be business as usual in 72 hours.

Please will the world leaders put pressure on Israel to end this slaughter.

bumper234

Israel & Palestinians agree on 72-hour ceasefire

http://www.imemc.org/article/68812?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PalestineNews+%28Palestine+News%29

A 72-hour ceasefire in the Gaza Strip is set to begin at midnight Monday morning, after Palestinian factions and Israeli authorities agreed to hold fire while negotiators work on terms for a longer truce.

In the hours leading up to the ceasefire, however, Israeli forces continue to pound the Gaza Strip with airstrikes, killing 4, including a child, on Sunday evening. At least 25 bombs were dropped by Israeli forces on Gaza on Sunday, and 60 on Saturday.

tayto lover

The Th!ng wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W00RAwxL7Oo

Absolutely brilliant speech.
It should be played to the so-called world leaders.

end of the road

Zebra3 wrote: »

"Stray house demolitions" too.

But only against Palestinian "terror" suspects and not against any Jews who are suspected of having abducted a Palestinain teenager and burning him alive.

Some people do know that "the most moral army in the world" are actually nothing but a disgusting bunch of vile racists.

fixed

TommyKnocker

Interesting read http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/propaganda-dehumanize-palestinians.html

Chance The Rapper

Garnier donating packages to female IDF soldiers. Should be boycotted.

Zebra3

Manic Moran wrote: »

Of course I do. It was a civilian diplomatic mission. The barracks bombing a couple months later (which killed a lot more people) I've no issue with.

Except as we all know, the US and Israel use their embassies as bases for undercover military spies so therefore are guilty of what they accuse Hamas of.

Chance The Rapper

Rihanna and Dwight Howard both tweeted #FreePalestine but deleted the tweets minutes later. Mad that they can't speak out. Must be their corporate sponsors?

Tony EH

Chance The Rapper wrote: »

Garnier donating packages to female IDF soldiers...

L'Oréal must have decided they weren't worth it.

Playboy

Chance The Rapper wrote: »

Garnier donating packages to female IDF soldiers. Should be boycotted.

They responded by saying they do no support the IDF, the decision to hand out the products to female IDF soldiers was taken at a local level and they have intervened to ensure it doesnt happen again.

Dan_Solo

Playboy wrote: »

They responded by saying they do no support the IDF, the decision to hand out the products to female IDF soldiers was taken at a local level and they have intervened to ensure it doesnt happen again.

This is brilliant news. It shows that the public's disgust at Israel and the IDF is beginning to register with big corporations.

jackofalltrades

Chance The Rapper wrote: »

Rihanna and Dwight Howard both tweeted #FreePalestine but deleted the tweets minutes later. Mad that they can't speak out. Must be their corporate sponsors?

Seemed lack a backlash from pro-Israeli individuals and organisations.
I don't think the US is at a stage where they can have a reasonable discussion about Israel/Palestine, without resorting to mud slinging.

MaryDorisS

tayto lover wrote: »

Absolutely brilliant speech.
It should be played to the so-called world leaders.

Very well said speech.. Pretty sure Noam Chomsky is the originator though word for word.. But still. Excellent

RustyNut

The "interview" with the Israeli propagandist/ambassador on the kenny show this morning (starts about 18 mins in) was a missed oppertunity to ask some hard questions but Pat seemed happy to hand this man easy questions accept whatever propaganda was given as a reply and offer no follow up questions.

The usual bull about Hamas using human shields, did Pat ask why the IDF think using Palastinian children as human shields is a good idea. No

Israel dont target civillians the propagandist/ambassador claimed. Well yes they do and young children at that. Did Pat challenge him on that ? Oh no

He then went on to allow the propagandist for the apartheid zionist regime to brand the 10,000 people who protested as being blind,ignorant,hate filled anti semites.

Move the dial, as they say.

tayto lover

RustyNut wrote: »

The "interview" with the Israeli propagandist/ambassador on the kenny show this morning (starts about 18 mins in) was a missed oppertunity to ask some hard questions but Pat seemed happy to hand this man easy questions accept whatever propaganda was given as a reply and offer no follow up questions.

The usual bull about Hamas using human shields, did Pat ask why the IDF think using Palastinian children as human shields is a good idea. No

Israel dont target civillians the propagandist/ambassador claimed. Well yes they do and young children at that. Did Pat challenge him on that ? Oh no

He then went on to allow the propagandist for the apartheid zionist regime to brand the 10,000 people who protested as being blind,ignorant,hate filled anti semites.

Move the dial, as they say.

Wouldn't expect anything else from Pat Kenny to be honest.
He was always a "yes man" and always went with the official Govt line.
Prat Kenny is what I call him.

RandomName2

Just sticking this here in a real lazy "Discuss." mode.

Agree or disagree, it's an interesting viewpoint imo. :pac:

tayto lover

RandomName2 wrote: »

Just sticking this here in a real lazy "Discuss." mode.

Agree or disagree, it's an interesting viewpoint imo. :pac:

No it's not.
It's Israeli propaganda and nothing else.
I hate it when people say "as we all know" because we don't know that stuff about Hamas at all. We do know what we see with our own two eyes on T.V. though.
The other events in Syria and Africa probably did happen BUT they weren't brought to us live on t.v. like the Gaza atrocities by the IDF.

Nodin

RandomName2 wrote: »

Just sticking this here in a real lazy "Discuss." mode.

[

Agree or disagree, it's an interesting viewpoint imo. :pac:

Not really, as its the usual Pat Condell bollocksology, whataboutery and misinformation.

RandomName2

tayto lover wrote: »

No it's not.
It's Israeli propaganda and nothing else.
I hate it when people say "as we all know" because we don't know that stuff about Hamas at all. We do know what we see with our own two eyes on T.V. though.

Well he isn't an Israeli propagandist, but he may well be buying into Israeli propaganda.

Sort of felt "cite your sources" a good few times, although I suppose that wouldn't suit the format of a monologue.

But yeah, Hamas are pretty horrible in all fairness.

bumper234

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well he isn't an Israeli propagandist, but he may well be buying into Israeli propaganda.

Sort of felt "cite your sources" a good few times, although I suppose that wouldn't suit the format of a monologue.

But yeah, Hamas are pretty horrible in all fairness.

He lost all credibilty about 1 minute in when he said Hamas used child labour to build their "terror tunnels". :rolleyes:

Nodin

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well he isn't an Israeli propagandist, but he may well be buying into Israeli propaganda.

Sort of felt "cite your sources" a good few times, although I suppose that wouldn't suit the format of a monologue.

But yeah, Hamas are pretty horrible in all fairness.

As I've recently pointed out in separate threads relating to ISIS and Russia, just because one lot are bad doesn't mean the others are off the hook. Israel is a colonialist state, and has been long before Hamas came on the scene.

tayto lover

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well he isn't an Israeli propagandist, but he may well be buying into Israeli propaganda.

Sort of felt "cite your sources" a good few times, although I suppose that wouldn't suit the format of a monologue.

But yeah, Hamas are pretty horrible in all fairness.

We know very little about Hamas in fairness except what others want us to believe.
If I lived in Gaza I would probably join Hamas myself if we were constantly being attacked and abused by the IDF in our own country.

Just to add to the debate -- do you or others think Hamas have more or less members now after the Israeli attacks? I would say their numbers have at least trebled. Some way to go about defeating an enemy by adding to it's numbers.

Son Of A Vidic

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This is brilliant news. It shows that the public's disgust at Israel and the IDF is beginning to register with big corporations.

In today's social media age, information travels like wildfire and hence the reason Garnier acted so quickly with their damage limitation exercise. So it's a timely reminder, that the ordinary man and woman on the street can play their small part. Hitting their pockets is one way of ensuring that the fanatics in this Zionist regime, will eventually sit up, take notice, hopefully modify their behaviour and rejoin the civilised world.

My name is URL

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well he isn't an Israeli propagandist, but he may well be buying into Israeli propaganda.

Himself and his bat-**** crazy wife are blatantly pushing Israeli propaganda

The deputy ambassador criticised Irish people who "under the disguise of caring for Palestinians accuse Israel of crimes against humanity

"It is very hysterical," she added.

These "anti-Israel activists" are "ignorant, anti-semitic, with an intensely rooted hatred of Jews," said Modai.

Modai accused this group of burning Israeli flags.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/israeli-deputy-ambassador-accuses-irish-group-of-antisemitism-30493770.html

Her ideas on discrediting those critical of Israel are interesting too

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/06/13/a-message-from-israels-deputy-ambassador-to-ireland/

Filthy pair of scummers

Herb Powell

RandomName2 wrote: »

Just sticking this here in a real lazy "Discuss." mode.

Agree or disagree, it's an interesting viewpoint imo. :pac:

Nah, it's every single usual "what about...." nonsense argument any Israeli hard-liner has ever used.

"The people of Palestine are not truly free"-damn right, but it's not why YOU say

"Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East"-that makes it ok to bomb the living **** out of Palestinians then?

Dan_Solo

Herb Powell wrote: »

"Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East"-that makes it ok to bomb the living **** out of Palestinians then?

Gaza was a democracy too. Until they voted the "wrong" way during the Israeli siege and the US started a civil war there.

Manic Moran

Zebra3 wrote: »

Except as we all know, the US and Israel use their embassies as bases for undercover military spies so therefore are guilty of what they accuse Hamas of.

They're actually rather open military spies. They also have diplomatic immunity, which is why no nation ever does very much about them, except occasionally expel the odd one to make a point. Example, Germany expelled the CIA station chief in Berlin last month. Military personnel (eg defense attaché) have the same diplomatic protection.

It's the spies which aren't in the embassy (and which the host nation thus doesn't know about) which are the ones to worry about.

BlaasForRafa

bumper234 wrote: »

He lost all credibilty about 1 minute in when he said Hamas used child labour to build their "terror tunnels". :rolleyes:

They did. http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/diplomacy-defense/38316-140726-report-hamas-used-child-labor-in-tunnel-building

And dozens of them died while building the tunnels.

And not just through accidents either, Hamas has been killing tunnel diggers to stop more of them from being discovered by IDF intelligence services. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183934#.U-mKf_ldV8E

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

They did. http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/diplomacy-defense/38316-140726-report-hamas-used-child-labor-in-tunnel-building

And dozens of them died while building the tunnels.

And not just through accidents either, Hamas has been killing tunnel diggers to stop more of them from being discovered by IDF intelligence services. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183934#.U-mKf_ldV8E

Strange the silence in Western based media if it's true......

jank

Hamas would never do such a thing as kill children of course....

Chance The Rapper

jank wrote: »

Hamas would never do such a thing as kill children of course....

Can you link a non israeli source?

bumper234

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

They did. http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/diplomacy-defense/38316-140726-report-hamas-used-child-labor-in-tunnel-building

And dozens of them died while building the tunnels.

And not just through accidents either, Hamas has been killing tunnel diggers to stop more of them from being discovered by IDF intelligence services. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183934#.U-mKf_ldV8E

That's some mighty fine unbiased reporting there :rolleyes:

jank

Chance The Rapper wrote: »

Can you link a non israeli source?

What, that Hamas have never killed a child?

http://www.inquisitr.com/1405339/hamas-executes-dozens-of-terror-tunnel-diggers-for-suspected-collaboration-with-israel/

http://news.yahoo.com/rights-group-urges-gazas-hamas-halt-executions-153820550.html

Chance The Rapper

jank wrote: »

What, that Hamas have never killed a child?

http://www.inquisitr.com/1405339/hamas-executes-dozens-of-terror-tunnel-diggers-for-suspected-collaboration-with-israel/

http://news.yahoo.com/rights-group-urges-gazas-hamas-halt-executions-153820550.html

No. That Hamas are forcing children to build tunnels, and then killing them.

hju6

jank wrote: »

What, that Hamas have never killed a child?

http://www.inquisitr.com/1405339/hamas-executes-dozens-of-terror-tunnel-diggers-for-suspected-collaboration-with-israel/

http://news.yahoo.com/rights-group-urges-gazas-hamas-halt-executions-153820550.html

If the Palestinians weren't imprisoned by Israel no tunnels would be needed,

Therefore the above deaths of children are Israels fault.

Here's a list of little children and babies murdered by Israel directly,

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/save-the-children-publishes-names-of-every-child-killed-in-gaza-conflict-so-far-30485911.html

TommyKnocker

No matter what any Zionist apologist says or how they try to blame Hamas or the Palestinians themselves for their deaths, it will always come back to the occupation and the blockade. Without which there would be no need for Hamas and the firing of rockets.

hju6

TommyKnocker wrote: »

No matter what any Zionist apologist says or how they try to blame Hamas or the Palestinians themselves for their deaths, it will always come back to the occupation and the blockade. Without which there would be no need for Hamas and the firing of rockets.

And when the UN gets involved

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday blasted a United Nations probe into Israel's winter offensive against Hamas as nothing but a "kangaroo court," after the investigators accused Israel of committing war crimes in a report.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/netanyahu-calls-un-gaza-probe-a-kangaroo-court-against-israel-1.7779