Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

Irish Praetorian

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

There is a thread here buddy

62 pages and counting

Have a gander

Ironic that the first headline I see is 'Unorthodox Jewish school in Hackney' :eek:

paulmcshane

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Appease I'm not so certain about, but making sure your actions don't precipitate their strengthening is a very wise course of action. It's not a particularly pleasant prospect having to sit back and watch these events, but its far better than involving yourself and making the situation worse.



Something tells me we won't have a 293 page discussion about how terrible the IS are (used to be called ISIS, now IS, I preferred ISIS myself) and how we must intervene and do something about them.

There is a seperate thread for IS discussions.

evo2000

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

What was it you were going to do about them again?

I was gonna fly over there after my lunch and use my super powers to stop them, what does what im going to do, have to do with anything ?

wes

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Yes and what it says is, it could be a heck of a lot more bloody, more violent and more destructive.

So your defense is that there are some other guys who are worse some where else...... Yeah, when you have to resort to using that, your argument is in deep trouble.

Irish Praetorian

RustyNut wrote: »

Do you think that Israel and the IDF should be held responsible for any war crimes that were committed, weather that is a realistic prospect or not?

Ideally yes, but a bit like our own struggle in the North, only in the context of both sides agreeing to put an end to the conflict so to pre-empt the continuation of such outrages. I think trying to do it in the midst of the conflict and under the terms of 'Israel bad!' will do nothing but spur the conflict into further depths.

evo2000

RustyNut wrote: »

Do you think that Israel and the IDF should be held responsible for any war crimes that were committed, weather that is a realistic prospect or not?

Without a doubt, whats good for the gander is good for the goose if you re gonna do wrong you should be punished accordingly be you terrorist or state.

But as with alot of things the west seems to pick and choose who gets punished and who doesnt.

Irish Praetorian

evo2000 wrote: »

I was gonna fly over there after my lunch and use my super powers to stop them, what does what im going to do, have to do with anything ?

This was an open question, what would you have done, boycotts, military action, the world is your oyster, spin me your fantasy.

wes wrote: »

So your defense is that there are some other guys who are worse some where else...... Yeah, when you have to resort to using that, your argument is in deep trouble.

No my defence is that wading into this situation on the kind of misinformed grounds that we've seen here, such as boycotting the situation to an end, or magically dragging Israeli citizens into the Hague, will render the situation far FAR worse, which is something we should be trying to avoid.

bumper234

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Ideally yes, but a bit like our own struggle in the North, only in the context of both sides agreeing to put an end to the conflict so to pre-empt the continuation of such outrages. I think trying to do it in the midst of the conflict and under the terms of 'Israel bad!' will do nothing but spur the conflict into further depths.

And if it did occur that Israeli soldiers were put on trial you would be one of the ones agreeing when they stated

"We were only following orders"

evo2000

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

This was an open question, what would you have done, boycotts, military action, the world is your oyster, spin me your fantasy.



No my defence is that wading into this situation on the kind of misinformed grounds that we've seen here, such as boycotting the situation to an end, or magically dragging Israeli citizens into the Hague, will render the situation far FAR worse, which is something we should be trying to avoid.

You re assumption that were misinformed because we arent all singing the same pro Israeli hymn as you is well off the mark, and down right ignorant.

RustyNut

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Ideally yes, but a bit like our own struggle in the North, only in the context of both sides agreeing to put an end to the conflict so to pre-empt the continuation of such outrages. I think trying to do it in the midst of the conflict and under the terms of 'Israel bad!' will do nothing but spur the conflict into further depths.

In the meantime what do you suggest the world should do to prevent the massacre of innocent civilians in the Gaza concentration camp?

Irish Praetorian

bumper234 wrote: »

And if it did occur that Israeli soldiers were put on trial you would be one of the ones agreeing when they stated

"We were only following orders"

You predictions of my own reaction are charming but they have very little to do with the thrust of the argument now do they?

Irish Praetorian

evo2000 wrote: »

You re assumption that were misinformed because we arent all singing the same pro Israeli hymn as you is well off the mark, and down right ignorant.

Then correct me! Show me the reality in which boycotts and arms embargo bring us a Free Palestine, show me how we go from the present situation, to one in which we have a working two state solution, criminals in the dock and civilians at peace.

bumper234

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

You predictions of my own reaction are charming but they have very little to do with the thrust of the argument now do they?

Charming and very correct i suspect. How's the lasagne today?

evo2000

RustyNut wrote: »

In the meantime what do you suggest the world should do to prevent the massacre of innocent civilians in the Gaza concentration camp?

Gaza concentration camp its sad that in this day and age, thats acutally accurate, and no one is doing jack **** about it.

Nodin

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Something tells me we won't have a 293 page discussion about how terrible the IS are (used to be called ISIS, now IS, I preferred ISIS myself) and how we must intervene and do something about them.

Not that pathetic crap again. They're bombing them, ffs.

bumper234

evo2000 wrote: »

Gaza concentration camp its sad that in this day and age, thats acutally accurate, and no one is doing jack **** about it.

It seems to be the only thing they learned from WW2.

evo2000

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Then correct me! Show me the reality in which boycotts and arms embargo bring us a Free Palestine, show me how we go from the present situation, to one in which we have a working two state solution, criminals in the dock and civilians at peace.

Ill tell yeah how, stop bombing innocent people for a start, Actually try to maintain peace treatys as oppose to looking to sabotage em at the first opportunity, start treating the Palestinians like actual human beings, accept responsibility for what they ve done, for a start anyway!

wes

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Something tells me we won't have a 293 page discussion about how terrible the IS are (used to be called ISIS, now IS, I preferred ISIS myself) and how we must intervene and do something about them.

There is a 63 page thread discussing ISIS:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057265918&page=63

Also, earlier threads on AH, and on the politics forum.

Irish Praetorian

RustyNut wrote: »

In the meantime what do you suggest the world should do to prevent the massacre of innocent civilians in the Gaza concentration camp?

Well for one thing I might drop the concentration camp spiel, Aushwitz could manage 6,000 dead a day, including body disposal. As awful as the violence in Gaza is, I don't think it qualifies as systematic industrialized extermination.

I was actually in the midst of writing something else for what should be done in Gaza but this terrible witticism came to mind and I must impose it upon you;

How about an election?

Irish Praetorian

bumper234 wrote: »

Charming and very correct i suspect. How's the lasagne today?

OK firstly, I don't eat lasagne and secondly lets stay on topic shall we? You were in the middle of explaining how you were going to stop Israel from slaughtering 200,000 people.

Tuisceanch

It is precisely because individuals took action that the myths that Israel has surrounded itself in for so long have being exposed and their support amongst the younger Jewish population is declining. How and what the Palestinians manage to negotiate as a peaceful solution is a matter for them and if people wish to express their support and solidarity by boycotting Jewish produce or supporting the case for Israel to be charged with war crimes then I don't see how that is worse than doing nothing at all.

Irish Praetorian

evo2000 wrote: »

Ill tell yeah how, stop bombing innocent people for a start, Actually try to maintain peace treatys as oppose to looking to sabotage em at the first opportunity, start treating the Palestinians like actual human beings, accept responsibility for what they ve done, for a start anyway!

So Israel stops bombing people, and when it gets rocket attacks what do you say the population? Suck it up? And when these attacks get so serious that people start to die do you still do nothing? When people start to blame their government for failing to act when they are bombed what do you do then?

Son Of A Vidic

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Now we can labour the point of any and all evils in the region being the product of 'Zionism', but what exact actions arising from that ideology are we referring to?

What an utterly and completely preposterous statement to come out with. It really doesn't deserve to be dignified with a reply. But one has to call out nonsense when one reads it. Why do you persist with deliberate obfuscation? Yet it does reveal a lot about your own disposition. You might as well be asking what evils stemmed from Nazism. There’s nothing ‘laboured’ at all about identifying the root cause of today’s instability.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Is the mere belief that there should be a state called Israel in the middle east part of this violent ideology that is apparently the cause of so much evil?

It has nothing to do with ‘belief’ and everything to do with the incessant behaviour of a rogue Zionist State. That is why we are where we are today. There’s an abundance of verifiable and empirical evidence that illustrates the malignant effects that Zionism has had in the region. And I'm happy to postulate that you'll probably struggle with/deny that.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

If we are to criticise I think there is nothing stopping us from calling a spade a spade and saying exactly what we mean - to fall back on catch-alls like 'Zionism' does nothing but muddy the waters

Despite your repeated and ongoing feeble attempts to divert away from Zionism. There is no escaping it, there are no muddied waters here. In that respect, Zionism is analogous to Nazism and the impact it also had on its innocent victims.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Also we are also a terrorist founded state ourselves, just saying

You seem to have a strong dispensation for continuous absurdity. If you think a people liberating themselves from a centuries long colonial occupation, equates to terrorism? Then I suspect there’s no point in my reasoning with the misguided ‘logic’ that utters such nonsense. Anyway, what has this got to do with this threads subject matter? Do you have any idea how obvious your diversion attempts are? I'm losing count of how many times you have tried to derail this thread with complete pointless irrelevance.

RustyNut

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Well for one thing I might drop the concentration camp spiel, Aushwitz could manage 6,000 dead a day, including body disposal. As awful as the violence in Gaza is, I don't think it qualifies as systematic industrialized extermination.

I was actually in the midst of writing something else for what should be done in Gaza but this terrible witticism came to mind and I must impose it upon you;

How about an election?

I think it is exactly a systematic industrialized extermination of the palestinian people. it was only a few minutes ago that you suggested that the zionists would kill hundreds of thousands of innocents if left to their own devices.

What is the point of elections if the zionists just declare the peoples choice as terrorists and go to war against the winners and voters?

Irish Praetorian

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

What an utterly and completely preposterous statement to come out with. It really doesn't deserve to be dignified with a reply. But one has to call out nonsense when one reads it. Why do you persist with deliberate obfuscation? Yet it does reveal a lot about your own disposition. You might as well be asking what evils stemmed from Nazism. There’s nothing ‘laboured’ at all about identifying the root cause of today’s instability.

Right so you don't define what Zionism is, you're just sure its responsible for all the the evils in the area right now, what a useful target.

It has nothing to do with ‘belief’ and everything to do with the incessant behaviour of a rogue Zionist State. That is why we are where we are today. There’s an abundance of verifiable and empirical evidence that illustrates the malignant effects that Zionism has had in the region. And I'm happy to postulate that you'll probably struggle with/deny that.

Indeed we might but until you come up with an idea of what exactly Zionism is, were left in the dark now aren't we?

Oh and for the record, some might well say that idea of taking Jews from across the world and plopping them in the middle of someone else land was a bad idea, there's is an idea of Zionism which was predicated on the need to establish a Jewish state.

Despite your repeated and ongoing feeble attempts to divert away from Zionism. There is no escaping it, there are no muddied waters here. In that respect, Zionism is analogous to Nazism and the impact it also had on its innocent victims.

So you can make analogies for Zionism, but you still can't do so much as tell us what on earth it is.

You seem to have a strong dispensation for continuous absurdity. If you think a people liberating themselves from a centuries long colonial occupation, equates to terrorism? Then I suspect there’s no point in my reasoning with the misguided ‘logic’ that utters such nonsense. Anyway, what has this got to do with this threads subject matter? Do you have any idea how obvious your diversion attempts are? I'm losing count of how many times you have tried to derail this thread with complete pointless irrelevance.

Do you imagine the American Revolutionaries were regarded by the British establishment as anything other than terrorists? Or the first Irish Freedom Fighters? There is no easily made distinction in peoples mind between terrorism and freedom fighters, like that old cliche goes. History alone tends to determine who is a freedom fighter and who is a terrorist.

Irish Praetorian

RustyNut wrote: »

I think it is exactly a systematic industrialized extermination of the palestinian people. it was only a few minutes ago that you suggested that the zionists would kill hundreds of thousands of innocents if left to their own devices.

What is the point of elections if the zionists just declare the peoples choice as terrorists and go to war against the winners and voters?

Its a pretty incompetent extermination then surely? Last year Gaza's population grew by 50,000, of which the Israelis have killed what, about 1/20th of that? Something tells me that if Israel actually had extermination on its mind, it would be exacting a SIGNIFICANTLY higher death toll.

bumper234

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Its a pretty incompetent extermination then surely? Last year Gaza's population grew by 50,000, of which the Israelis have killed what, about 1/20th of that? Something tells me that if Israel actually had extermination on its mind, it would be exacting a SIGNIFICANTLY higher death toll.

Strange


Every time i read one of your posts i automatically hear the voice of Mark Regev.

Tuisceanch

I thought I focus some attention again on real people living in Palestine and post this link

http://hamdeaburahma.com/2014/08/19/gaza-where-no-one-is-innocent/

I bought his book recently and it arrived within a week. It is a book of photographs taken in the West Bank. Maybe some of you might be interested in purchasing it.

I thought there might be some value in the previous conversation but it's too slippery to be indulged any longer.

Irish Praetorian

bumper234 wrote: »

Strange


Every time i read one of your posts i automatically hear the voice of Mark Regev.

Pity, I was trying a bit more for Douglas Murray but oh well.

Irish Praetorian

Tuisceanch wrote: »

I thought there might be some value in the previous conversation but it's too slippery to be indulged any longer.

A shame, I enjoyed debating with you and you raised some lovely points, some of which actually forced me into a rethink on a few issues.

Tuisceanch

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

A shame, I enjoyed debating with you and you raised some lovely points, some of which actually forced me into a rethink on a few issues.

It wasn't really a criticism of you but just that I don't know what you're arguing for.

evo2000

Tuisceanch wrote: »

It wasn't really a criticism of you but just that I don't know what you're arguing for.

His arguing that Israel are right in what they are doing, from what i can gather.

RustyNut

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Its a pretty incompetent extermination then surely? Last year Gaza's population grew by 50,000, of which the Israelis have killed what, about 1/20th of that? Something tells me that if Israel actually had extermination on its mind, it would be exacting a SIGNIFICANTLY higher death toll.

Why do the zionists limit the number of calories that they allow into the Gaza concentration camp victims?

Irish Praetorian

RustyNut wrote: »

Why do the zionists limit the number of calories that they allow into the Gaza concentration camp victims?

They don't - from the horses mouth:

http://www.gisha.org/UserFiles/File/LegalDocuments/procedures/merchandise/55en.pdf

Nodin

Tuisceanch wrote: »

It wasn't really a criticism of you but just that I don't know what you're arguing for.

Going from his first post in the thread, he's arguing for the sake of it, hence I've largely been leaving him to it.

Irish Praetorian

Nodin wrote: »

Going from his first post in the thread, he's arguing for the sake of it, hence I've largely been leaving him to it.

Well there is a bit of truth to that but you've also been putting some quite good points on the table as well. You were right to call me out on the IS for example, we do indeed bomb (and other things) them and subject them to restrictions that we don't with Israel.

evo2000

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

They don't - from the horses mouth:

http://www.gisha.org/UserFiles/File/LegalDocuments/procedures/merchandise/55en.pdf

Oh must be legit...because Israel would never lie or do anything underhanded to benefit itself...

Irish Praetorian

evo2000 wrote: »

Oh must be legit...because Israel would never lie or do anything underhanded to benefit itself...

So in 2010 they decided to start lying about food imports for some reason, despite having previously been quite explicit about restricting them?

evo2000

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

So in 2010 they decided to start lying about food imports for some reason, despite having previously been quite explicit about restricting them?

Im saying in general, you re taking your facts from a non neutral source...in this case the horses mouth has a tendency to lie and be very cloak and dagger in alot of its dealings.

WakeUp

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

No my defence is that wading into this situation on the kind of misinformed grounds that we've seen here, such as boycotting the situation to an end, or magically dragging Israeli citizens into the Hague, will render the situation far FAR worse, which is something we should be trying to avoid.

yeah about that. why would such a thing render the situation far worse? explain that to me..also why is Bibi so unnerved about ending up in the dock of the ICC..why? if the Israeli government have a case to answer should they not have to answer it. and if the answer to that is no, then why?...

Irish Praetorian

evo2000 wrote: »

Im saying in general, you re taking your facts from a non neutral source...in this case the horses mouth has a tendency to lie and be very cloak and dagger in alot of its dealings.

Sure but this is a case of finding out what restrictions the Israeli state is imposing upon Gaza, its not so much a question of trying to find out what their line of argument is, its literally about finding out what exact products are restricted.

Tuisceanch

Nodin wrote: »

Going from his first post in the thread, he's arguing for the sake of it, hence I've largely been leaving him to it.

Yes as he has just confirmed himself. I believe he also wants to challenge the emotional content of the thread and argue on the grounds of 'Real Politik' as he sees it. Just my opinion though and it's not a stance without merit and interest.

evo2000

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Sure but this is a case of finding out what restrictions the Israeli state is imposing upon Gaza, its not so much a question of trying to find out what their line of argument is, its literally about finding out what exact products are restricted.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

Id say thats where that argument comes from, how true it is i dont know.

I certainly would put it past em tho..

Irish Praetorian

WakeUp wrote: »

yeah about that. why would such a thing render the situation far worse? explain that to me..also why is Bibi so unnerved about ending up in the dock of the ICC..why? if the Israeli government have a case to answer should they not have to answer it. and if the answer to that is no, then why?...

If you put Israeli citizens in the dock for actions during Gaza, without dealing with the underlying conflict, its a bit like dragging Sinn Fein activists through the British prison service during the troubles - you haven't dealt with the source conflict which leads those people to the circumstances they are in, you haven't demonstrated the reciprocity necessary for any justice system, and you run the risk of being seen as a partisan entity in the conflict. For the Israelis is a case of 'how come our guys get arrested but theirs don't' and adds another reason for Israel to not give a damn about Western opinion in their actions.

In short, realpolitik, or the same reason none of the Para's involved in Bloody Sunday have been pursued.

evo2000

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

If you put Israeli citizens in the dock for actions during Gaza, without dealing with the underlying conflict, its a bit like dragging Sinn Fein activists through the British prison service during the troubles - you haven't dealt with the source conflict which leads those people to the circumstances they are in, you haven't demonstrated the reciprocity necessary for any justice system, and you run the risk of being seen as a partisan entity in the conflict. For the Israelis is a case of 'how come our guys get arrested but theirs don't' and adds another reason for Israel to not give a damn about Western opinion in their actions.

In short, realpolitik, or the same reason none of the Para's involved in Bloody Sunday have been pursued.

Maybe gaza will get really strong, and will hunt down 90 year old ex-israel soldiers.

Irish Praetorian

evo2000 wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

Id say thats where that argument comes from, how true it is i dont know.

I certainly would put it past em tho..

Well that is a reference to Israeli acts during the initial blockade period up until 2010, when it certainly seems plausible that some kind of calorie counting was used, goodness knows other restrictions on food were certainly put in. My point would simply be that I don't think food imports have been restricted since the middle of 2010.

RustyNut

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

So in 2010 they decided to start lying about food imports for some reason, despite having previously been quite explicit about restricting them?

It took a 3 year court battle to get the information.
What secrets are the keeping about the treatment of the Gaza prisoners today?
I mean they are well known for their honesty.

http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/13005

Wikileaks has published diplomatic cables revealing that Israel told US officials in 2008 it would keep Gaza's economy “on the brink of collapse”.

Israel's Defense Ministry has denied that the document, ordered by a Security-Political Cabinet decision in September 2007, was ever used. However, then Defense Minister Matan Vilnai has expressly stated that 106 trucks—the exact number prescribed by the presentation—were carrying food into Gaza during the time of the siege.

Irish Praetorian

evo2000 wrote: »

Maybe gaza will get really strong, and will hunt down 90 year old ex-israel soldiers.

Maybe, but perhaps they might take a cue from us and the Brits, let the scum of one hand wash the scum of the other - its been unpleasant, but it has been effective for the North.

evo2000

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Well that is a reference to Israeli acts during the initial blockade period up until 2010, when it certainly seems plausible that some kind of calorie counting was used, goodness knows other restrictions on food were certainly put in. My point would simply be that I don't think food imports have been restricted since the middle of 2010.

What s the point in restricting food? and how the can you agree with it? its just pure badness to keep people on the verge of starvation and is nazi-like

Tuisceanch

Breaking news | Israeli army assassinates the child and the wife of Mohammed Aldif, the General Commander of Al-Qassam Brigades.