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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**
Comments
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Assuming you are correct, does a preemptive strike against a civilian population seem like a proportional response to a thought crime?0
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Ignorant etc. wrote: »To be honest, this thread adds about as much hope for peace in the Middle East as Ian Paisley did in Ireland. Its populated by extremist anti-semite types who prattle on about Palestine's right to self-determination yet have absolutely no regard for Israel's right to exist.
I will finish with this newsflash though. Hamas wants a Jewish genocide, its charter says so. You can paint it how you like but Hamas is the only organisation in this conflict that wants genocide of any form. Those who claim Israel is carrying out genocide in Palestine are silly and pathetic. After all, the population of Palestine keeps going up year on year, so if Israel has any intention on genocide it must be pretty sh1t at it.
Well all you do is state what you feel is the case when there is plenty of evidence to contradict your viewpoint and calling people anti-semites only makes you look insincere and extremely biased. If you can't support your claims and can't be civil then why are you here? Can you cite one example for instance of where i stated that Israel didn't have a right to exist and given that I've drawn attention to the many Jewish groups and intellectuals who are opposed to the Israeli government then do you consider anybody that criticizes Israeli policy anti-semitic? Again I refer you back to the link I initially posted. If you are sincere then engage or else accept that it is you who is unwilling to engage in a civil manner.0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »To be honest, this thread adds about as much hope for peace in the Middle East as Ian Paisley did in Ireland. Its populated by extremist anti-semite types who prattle on about Palestine's right to self-determination yet have absolutely no regard for Israel's right to exist.
I will finish with this newsflash though. Hamas wants a Jewish genocide, its charter says so. You can paint it how you like but Hamas is the only organisation in this conflict that wants genocide of any form. Those who claim Israel is carrying out genocide in Palestine are silly and pathetic. After all, the population of Palestine keeps going up year on year, so if Israel has any intention on genocide it must be pretty sh1t at it.
Sigh
Pro Palestinian does not = anti semite.
Keep waffling though you're good for a laugh if nothing else.0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »To be honest, this thread adds about as much hope for peace in the Middle East as Ian Paisley did in Ireland. Its populated by extremist anti-semite types who prattle on about Palestine's right to self-determination yet have absolutely no regard for Israel's right to exist.
I will finish with this newsflash though. Hamas wants a Jewish genocide, its charter says so. You can paint it how you like but Hamas is the only organisation in this conflict that wants genocide of any form. Those who claim Israel is carrying out genocide in Palestine are silly and pathetic. After all, the population of Palestine keeps going up year on year, so if Israel has any intention on genocide it must be pretty sh1t at it.
I linked to a video of Noam Chomsky in May of this year earlier in this thread. He specifically discusses this 'right to exist' issue and what crock of ****e it is. It is only Israel who requires this acknowledgement. No state has a right to exist, we can recognize that a states exists but why should it have a right to exist? By admitting that Israel has a right to exist the Palestinians are basically accepting that Israel were justified in their dispossession of the Palestinians, who on earth in their right mind would recognize that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEpn68BZIOY&safety_mode=true&persist_safety_mode=10 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »
I will finish with this newsflash though. Hamas Israel wants a Jewish Palestinian genocide, its actions says so
FYP0 -
How am I not being civil? Because I don't support Hamas. I've been called everything under the sun and yet when I respond I'm told I'm not being civil. The fact is you make outlandish claims about an Israeli genocide on Palestinians yet can't even back up that statement. It took Hitler, what, less than twelve years to wipe out most of the Jews in Europe and in 64 years the Israelis have made such little progress with their "genocide" that the Palestinian population that it is higher than it has ever been. How sh1t at genocide do you have for that kind of result after 64 years?0
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Tuisceanch wrote: »Well all you do is state what you feel is the case when there is plenty of evidence to contradict your viewpoint and calling people anti-semites only makes you look insincere and extremely biased. If you can't support your claims and can't be civil then why are you here? Can you cite one example for instance of where i stated that Israel didn't have a right to exist and given that I've drawn attention to the many Jewish groups and intellectuals who are opposed to the Israeli government then do you consider anybody that criticizes Israeli policy anti-semitic? Again I refer you back to the link I initially posted. If you are sincere then engage or else accept that it is you who is unwilling to engage in a civil manner.Sigh
Pro Palestinian does not = anti semite.
Keep waffling though you're good for a laugh if nothing else.I linked to a video of Noam Chomsky in May of this year earlier in this thread. He specifically discusses this 'right to exist' issue and what crock of ****e it is. It is only Israel who requires this acknowledgement. No state has a right to exist, we can recognize that a states exists but why should it have a right to exist? By admitting that Israel has a right to exist the Palestinians are basically accepting that Israel were justified in their dispossession of the Palestinians, who on earth in their right mind would recognize that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEpn68BZIOY&safety_mode=true&persist_safety_mode=1Tuisceanch wrote: »My relations aren't rotting in Northern Ireland. They live there and made the best of the situation as did my grand father before he was obliged to leave his job in Belfast after partition. I get that you're were born in England of Irish descent? but don't think for one minute you're an authority on the subject or you are entitled to slur others because of your own issues and misconceptions. I,myself,am half english so don't think somehow you're unique and special.
Also do you care to respond your slur about people ignoring the plight of catholics in Northern Ireland or do you wish to retract it or conveniently forget you said it?0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »How am I not being civil? Because I don't support Hamas. I've been called everything under the sun and yet when I respond I'm told I'm not being civil. The fact is you make outlandish claims about an Israeli genocide on Palestinians yet can't even back up that statement. It took Hitler, what, less than twelve years to wipe out most of the Jews in Europe and in 64 years the Israelis have made such little progress with their "genocide" that the Palestinian population that it is higher than it has ever been. How sh1t at genocide do you have for that kind of result after 64 years?
Yet you have no.problem with resorting to petty name calling when it suits you :rolleyes:0 -
The better laugh is this idea of an Israeli caused genocide when the population of Palestine goes up year on year. As that's the case, before I leave this thread, can we agree on the fact that Israel must be pretty sh1t at genocide if its failed to leave a mark after 64 years?0
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Ignorant etc. wrote: »How am I not being civil? Because I don't support Hamas. I've been called everything under the sun and yet when I respond I'm told I'm not being civil. The fact is you make outlandish claims about an Israeli genocide on Palestinians yet can't even back up that statement. It took Hitler, what, less than twelve years to wipe out most of the Jews in Europe and in 64 years the Israelis have made such little progress with their "genocide" that the Palestinian population that it is higher than it has ever been. How sh1t at genocide do you have for that kind of result after 64 years?
Well I don't support Hamas so please apologise for that slur. ANd who are you referring to when you claim people are making outlandish claims. SInce Israeli ministers have made the same claim then how is it outlandish.Also why besmirch the memory of the victims of the holocaust by equating them as being with Israeli government policy.0 -
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Ignorant etc. wrote: »The better laugh is this idea of an Israeli caused genocide when the population of Palestine goes up year on year. As that's the case, before I leave this thread, can we agree on the fact that Israel must be pretty sh1t at genocide if its failed to leave a mark after 64 years?
Tell that to the parents of the innocent children that the IDF keep.murdering.0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »...
It's difficult to take anything you say seriously after your quotes below.Ignorant etc. wrote: »You can't support Palestine without supporting Hamas...those who support Palestine, in this present conflict, support Hamas and are seriously delusional...For Hamas, read ISIS. For ISIS, read Hamas.Ignorant etc. wrote: »Up the IDF!Ignorant etc. wrote: »IDF, best army in the world! May the IDF always be there to protect the good people of Israel from terrorist onslaught. IDF, I salute you!Ignorant etc. wrote: »Yyyyeeeeaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh baby!
The I, the I, the IDF!
I don't think you have any intention of engaging in a debate. I believe you're here only to rant and to get a few things off your chest.
Could you clarify what you meant below?Ignorant etc. wrote: »Sorry pal, but I think I probably know the Israeli situation far better than you do...I know the Yesha situation inside out
I think it is clear you have strong connections to the IDF and being Jewish is nothing to be ashamed of.
I do feel however that this has clouded your judgement on the situation.0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »The better laugh is this idea of an Israeli caused genocide when the population of Palestine goes up year on year. As that's the case, before I leave this thread, can we agree on the fact that Israel must be pretty sh1t at genocide if its failed to leave a mark after 64 years?
What about your slur about ignoring the plight of catholics in Northern Ireland. Some of us come from there and might perceive your arrogance as deeply offensive!!!0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »The better laugh is this idea of an Israeli caused genocide when the population of Palestine goes up year on year. As that's the case, before I leave this thread, can we agree on the fact that Israel must be pretty sh1t at genocide if its failed to leave a mark after 64 years?
Is that the issue you want to debate now. Ok off you go.0 -
No, I stand by my statement that people in the south abandoned their compatriots in the north because its true.
To my good friend who says he understands I was born in England. Again, you're showing your ignorance by terming the whole of the UK England. I said I was born in the UK not that I was born in England.
However, in terms of your whole pro-Palestine argument, before I go, can we all agree that your argument is based on an elaborate lie. Surely even you realise that if after 64 years, Israel has made such little progress in its "genocide crusade" that either Israel must be terribly sh1t at genocide or that you're all lieing?0 -
I linked to a video of Noam Chomsky in May of this year earlier in this thread. He specifically discusses this 'right to exist' issue and what crock of ****e it is. It is only Israel who requires this acknowledgement. No state has a right to exist, we can recognize that a states exists but why should it have a right to exist? By admitting that Israel has a right to exist the Palestinians are basically accepting that Israel were justified in their dispossession of the Palestinians, who on earth in their right mind would recognize that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEpn68BZIOY&safety_mode=true&persist_safety_mode=1Ignorant etc. wrote: »The better laugh is this idea of an Israeli caused genocide when the population of Palestine goes up year on year. As that's the case, before I leave this thread, can we agree on the fact that Israel must be pretty sh1t at genocide if its failed to leave a mark after 64 years?
Did you watch the above video or are you more inclined to dismiss him with the pejorative term of 'Gnome Chomsky'. Are you inclined to examine the issue in detail and debate the specifics and accept that it can't always be reduced to simplistic mantras?0 -
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Tuisceanch wrote: »Is that the issue you want to debate now. Ok off you go.
Ah no come back now the whole concept of "genocide" committed by Israel is exposed as an elaborate hoax?0 -
It's difficult to take anything you say seriously after your quotes below.
I don't think you have any intention of engaging in a debate. I believe you're here only to rant and to get a few things off your chest.
Could you clarify what you meant below?
I think it is clear you have strong connections to the IDF and being Jewish is nothing to be ashamed of.
I do feel however that this has clouded your judgement on the situation.
Ahahahahaha are you serious? Just because I take a pro-Israeli stance then I must be Jewish. So to take a pro-Israeli stance, I must be Jewish? Isn't that a little anti-semitic seeing as you admit to being against Israel you must therefore be against Jews because only Jews support Israel :rolleyes:. Thanks for telling me not to be ashamed of something I'm not though, very kind.0 -
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Ignorant etc. wrote: »No, I stand by my statement that people in the south abandoned their compatriots in the north because its true.
To my good friend who says he understands I was born in England. Again, you're showing your ignorance by terming the whole of the UK England. I said I was born in the UK not that I was born in England.
However, in terms of your whole pro-Palestine argument, before I go, can we all agree that your argument is based on an elaborate lie. Surely even you realise that if after 64 years, Israel has made such little progress in its "genocide crusade" that either Israel must be terribly sh1t at genocide or that you're all lieing?
I questioned whether you were born in England. I didn't state it. Can't you even be honest about that? Your statement about Northern Ireland is again just arrogant and offensive. How can you talk in such absolute terms and believe that anybody would take you seriously.0 -
Tell that to the parents of the innocent children that the IDF keep.murdering.
Ah so its murder now? During a conflict situation? So all the Germans, Italians and Japanese that were killed by the UK, the USA, France etc. were murdered? How come we never saw any call to bring the British, Americans and French to Nuremburg then?
Also, murder does not equate to genocide. Do you understand what genocide means? Myra Hindley, for example, was a cruel, vicious, evil murderer, but she wasn't guilty of genocide.
How long exactly does genocide have to go on for before it results in a negative effect on the persecuted people's population? Surely less than 64 years? And if this propaganda of "genocide" is a pack of lies, which it must surely be because Israel surely couldn't be that bad at it, how much of the rest of the pro-Palestinian argument is lies? If you lie once, no-one will believe you twice.0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »Ah no come back now the whole concept of "genocide" committed by Israel is exposed as an elaborate hoax?
Ok if not "genocide" what would you call the systematic murder of innocent men, women and children? What would you call the systematic bombardment of civilian infrastructure? What would you call the forced subjugation of a nation? What would you call the forced diet of a nation? What would you call the forced (illegal) blockade of a nation?0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »Ahahahahaha are you serious? Just because I take a pro-Israeli stance then I must be Jewish. So to take a pro-Israeli stance, I must be Jewish? Isn't that a little anti-semitic seeing as you admit to being against Israel you must therefore be against Jews because only Jews support Israel :rolleyes:. Thanks for telling me not to be ashamed of something I'm not though, very kind.
Your mask slipped a long time ago. Why do you support the savages within the IDF?Ignorant etc. wrote: »Ah no come back now the whole concept of "genocide" committed by Israel is exposed as an elaborate hoax?
This has been covered numerous times. Here is the definition set out by the UN...again."any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
The IDF and their masters are nasty pieces of work wouldn't you agree?0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »Ah so its murder now? During a conflict situation? So all the Germans, Italians and Japanese that were killed by the UK, the USA, France etc. were murdered? How come we never saw any call to bring the British, Americans and French to Nuremburg then?
Also, murder does not equate to genocide. Do you understand what genocide means? Myra Hindley, for example, was a cruel, vicious, evil murderer, but she wasn't guilty of genocide.
How long exactly does genocide have to go on for before it results in a negative effect on the persecuted people's population? Surely less than 64 years? And if this propaganda of "genocide" is a pack of lies, which it must surely be because Israel surely couldn't be that bad at it, how much of the rest of the pro-Palestinian argument is lies? If you lie once, no-one will believe you twice.
The deliberate targeting of innocent civilians is murder, why do you think the Israelis are ****ting it and begging the US to stop them being investigated for war crimes?0 -
Tuisceanch wrote: »I questioned whether you were born in England. I didn't state it. Can't you even be honest about that? Your statement about Northern Ireland is again just arrogant and offensive. How can you talk in such absolute terms and believe that anybody would take you seriously.Tuisceanch wrote: »I get that you're were born in England of Irish descent.
Pretty arrogant assumption. You have heard of Wales and Scotland, haven't you? Or are we "occupiers" of English land in your eyes? Maybe we're the bogeymen going around conducting a "genocide" of English people. Or is it that its only the Palestinians who should be acknowledged for having their own land.
Please admit that this concept of Israeli led "genocide" is a propaganda lie and I will leave this thread. Lie once and a whole argument crumbles. Like with this fairy story of "genocide".0 -
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The deliberate targeting of innocent civilians is murder, why do you think the Israelis are ****ting it and begging the US to stop them being investigated for war crimes?
Ahhhhh, so its gone from genocide to murder. Two related, but very different crimes. I think the propaganda lie is unraveling now, and I think you will acknowledge that genocide is the more serious of the two accusations.
Oh, and the Palestinian fighters don't target civilians I suppose.
Ho hum.0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »Ahhhhh, so its gone from genocide to murder. Two related, but very different crimes. I think the propaganda lie is unraveling now, and I think you will acknowledge that genocide is the more serious of the two accusations.
Oh, and the Palestinian fighters don't target civilians I suppose.
Ho hum.
What propaganda?0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »Ahhhhh, so its gone from genocide to murder. Two related, but very different crimes. I think the propaganda lie is unraveling now, and I think you will acknowledge that genocide is the more serious of the two accusations.
Oh, and the Palestinian fighters don't target civilians I suppose.
Ho hum.
It's already been.pointed out to you the meaning of genocide. How many Israeli civilians killed v Palestinian civilians in the last decade?0 -
Tuisceanch wrote: »My relations aren't rotting in Northern Ireland. They live there and made the best of the situation as did my grand father before he was obliged to leave his job in Belfast after partition. I get that you're were born in England of Irish descent? but don't think for one minute you're an authority on the subject or you are entitled to slur others because of your own issues and misconceptions. I,myself,am half english so don't think somehow you're unique and special.Ignorant etc. wrote: »Pretty arrogant assumption. You have heard of Wales and Scotland, haven't you? Or are we "occupiers" of English land in your eyes? Maybe we're the bogeymen going around conducting a "genocide" of English people. Or is it that its only the Palestinians who should be acknowledged for having their own land.
Please admit that this concept of Israeli led "genocide" is a propaganda lie and I will leave this thread. Lie once and a whole argument crumbles. Like with this fairy story of "genocide".
You forgot the question mark. I know you have already admitted that written english is not your forte but that seems a deliberate omission to justify your ad hominem attacks. As for the rest of your comment..again abusive,arrogant and the product of your own mind. As a previous poster noted you have a certain amusing quality but it's not so interesting as to merit listening to any further. It's a shame you feel unable to conduct yourself with a bit more dignity and grace but it's to your own detriment and not my concern.0 -
"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
I'm pro-IDF and pro-Israel because I will support any liberal modern democracy over a terror state.
Aha... so, in that case, Britain, America and France must have been guilty of genocide during World War Two? Surely the carpet bombing of Dresden must have killed a few German civilians? Where do you draw the line? The IRA planted bombs which killed British civilians. Was that genocide too?
Genocide is the systematic attempt to destroy a people. As I keep saying, if after 64 years Israel hasn't made a dent in the population you say it is trying to commit genocide against then its either exceptionally poor at it or the pro-Palestinian propaganda is an elaborate lie. Also, some of your friends on here have already dropped down from accusing genocide to accusing murder. Murder isn't to be condoned either, but its not as serious as genocide.
Also, what are Hamas trying to send to Israel? Interflora deliveries?0 -
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Tuisceanch wrote: »You forgot the question mark. I know you have already admitted that written english is not your forte but that seems a deliberate omission to justify your ad hominem attacks. As for the rest of your comment..again abusive,arrogant and the product of your own mind. As a previous poster noted you have a certain amusing quality but it's not so interesting as to merit listening to any further. It's a shame you feel unable to conduct yourself with a bit more dignity and grace but it's to your own detriment and not my concern.
How am I any more abusive than you are? Is it because I don't agree with you?
Even so, why would you ask me was I born in England when I said in the UK? It surely would have been more of an open-question to ask where in the UK, rather than assume I was born in England.
Nice to see you have chosen to not back up the statement of "genocide" when challenged about it. You're looking to make this personal because you can't provide evidence to counteract my point that Israel is not commiting genocide.0 -
This thread has gone to complete sh*t.0
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Ignorant etc. wrote: »
Genocide is the systematic attempt to destroy a people.
As much as you would probably like to redefine genocide, I think it would be better if we stick to the legal definition set out by the UN.
Are you ashamed of your Israeli connections? I don't blame you, I would be too with the war crimes, genocide and a total disregard for human life displayed by them over the past few weeks.0 -
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As much as you would probably like to redefine genocide, I think it would be better if we stick to the legal definition set out by the UN.
Are you ashamed of your Israeli connections? I don't blame you, I would be too with the war crimes, genocide and a total disregard for human life displayed by them over the past few weeks.
LOL, this is getting ridiculous now. I'm from the UK, I'm Roman Catholic, I have no family relations to Israel, nor do I have Jewish relations. I have no friends from Israel and I have no Jewish friends. More is the pity, because I would be extremely proud to have friends or family from a progressive, modern, liberal, forward-thinking country. I do own an Israeli flag, an Israel tshirt and I do give money to Friends of the IDF if that helps you feel better. I am interested in Jewish culture, Israel and I would love to go there some time.
However, you don't have to have ties to anywhere to feel for the people there. Why do you assume I must be Israeli to support Israel? Isn't that rather a foolish assumption? I didn't assume that you were Palestinian.
However, I prefer to deal with facts. You still haven't explained to me, how, if Israel has been conducting a genocide against Palestine, that since the formation of Israel in 1948, Israel hasn't made the slightest dent in the population of Palestine? Explain that and I will give your argument some credence. Until you do, I will assume it is an elaborate hoax.0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »How am I any more abusive than you are? Is it because I don't agree with you?
We haven't debated any issues as you were more insistent on labeling and ad homimen attacks. I asked if you were interestedin debating the issue of anti-semitism attacks in Europe and you ignored it so I presume you have no real interest in the subject and are just feigning interest because really you just wish to be provocative. Not interested in that game.Sorry!Ignorant etc. wrote: »Even so, why would you ask me was I born in England when I said in the UK? It surely would have been more of an open-question to ask where in the UK, rather than assume I was born in England.
Why say the UK if you are so particular about where you are born. I'm not particularly interested in where you were born but I was just expressing an interest but you just start fights over any little thing so there's no point in considering you as somebody that one could talk with reasonably.Ignorant etc. wrote: »Nice to see you have chosen to not back up the statement of "genocide" when challenged about it. You're looking to make this personal because you can't provide evidence to counteract my point that Israel is not commiting genocide.
I haven't said anything on the subject. You're debating that with other people.I think it's that sort of absent mindedness that makes you amusing.Good luck with your endeavours.0 -
Tuisceanch wrote: »We haven't debated any issues as you were more insistent on labeling and ad homimen attacks. I asked if you were interestedin debating the issue of anti-semitism attacks in Europe and you ignored it so I presume you have no real interest in the subject and are just feigning interest because really you just wish to be provocative. Not interested in that game.Sorry!
As soon as anyone mentions anything remotely pro-Israeli then they are turned on in this thread. If you think that is what makes for good debate then its no wonder this thread is so poor.Tuisceanch wrote: »Why say the UK if you are so particular about where you are born. I'm not particularly interested in where you were born but I was just expressing an interest but you just start fights over any little thing so there's no point in considering you as somebody that one could talk with reasonably.
I'm not, but as you told me you were Irish, would you not think it a little daft if I assumed you were from Leitrim when you could be from 31 other counties?Tuisceanch wrote: »I haven't said anything on the subject. You're debating that with other people.I think it's that sort of absent mindedness that makes you amusing.Good luck with your endeavours.
So as a pro-Palestinian you don't agree with the pro-Palestinian stance that there is a genocide in Palestine? Its kind of implicit with being pro-Palestinian.0 -
Much as I'd love to stay and chat people, this whole pro-Palestinian thing has descended into, as it so often does, farce. I've better things to do, shalom and להתראות ולזכור אנשים, ישראל לנצח!0
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Ignorant etc. wrote: »As soon as anyone mentions anything remotely pro-Israeli then they are turned on in this thread. If you think that is what makes for good debate then its no wonder this thread is so poor..
I provided a link to a survey of anti-semitism attacks in Europe.How exactly is debating that issue Pro-Palestinian as you term it?Ignorant etc. wrote: »I'm not, but as you told me you were Irish, would you not think it a little daft if I assumed you were from Leitrim when you could be from 31 other counties?
I wondered if you were from England as you use phrases which are common in England.Nothing more and nothing less.Is this a big issue or are you over it now?Ignorant etc. wrote: »
So as a pro-Palestinian you don't agree with the pro-Palestinian stance that there is a genocide in Palestine? Its kind of implicit with being pro-Palestinian.
Your logic is simplistic and just stifles any meaningful debate. We are all just humans with imperfect understandings and so you should adopt some humility and forego the aggression and refrain from projecting your own bias and prejudice onto other people. It's not an unreasonable request and it shouldn't be difficult for you to modify your behaviour.Don't you want a civil discourse?0 -
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Ignorant etc. wrote: »Much as I'd love to stay and chat people, this whole pro-Palestinian thing has descended into, as it so often does, farce. I've better things to do, shalom and להתראות ולזכור אנשים, ישראל לנצח!
It's a thread and you added some farce. I wouldn't be so grandiose about how you think you've affected anybody's thinking. They've heard it all before and it just amuses them. Nothing more and nothing less.0 -
Tuisceanch wrote: »I provided a link to a survey of anti-semitism attacks in Europe.How exactly is debating that issue Pro-Palestinian as you term it?
I wondered if you were from England as you use phrases which are common in England.Nothing more and nothing less.Is this a big issue or are you over it now?
Your logic is simplistic and just stifles any meaningful debate. We are all just humans with imperfect understandings and so you should adopt some humility and forego the aggression and refrain from projecting your own bias and prejudice onto other people. It's not an unreasonable request and it shouldn't be difficult for you to modify your behaviour.Don't you want a civil discourse?
I've nothing to get over. You didn't offend me by saying I was from England. I just thought it was a silly assumption to make.
Why do you keep saying you can't be bothered to talk to me but you always respond to my posts? If my views mattered so little to you why would you bother?
To answer your question about whether I would like a civil discourse. Yes, of course I would. But as the overwhelming majority of pro-Palestinians are absolutely firebrand, that's impossible on this topic. I have never heard one word of acknowledgement for anything good Israel has ever done from a pro-Palestinian. I have never heard one word of criticism for Palestine from a pro-Palestinian. Ye tend to see everything in black and white. Palestine good, Israel bad. Most pro-Israelis, apart from right-wing or orthodox zealouts will admit that the settlements are not a good thing. That it is not right that a people have to live in squalour. That the trade restrictions are unjust. That the wall creates more problems for the Palestinians than it solves. That the curfews on the entire Palestinian population are a problem. That the Yesha council is a bad extremist group. That this conflict will not be resolved until both parties engage in dialogue, and that Fatah offers the best possibility for such dialogue.
However, the pro-Palestinian argument is a soapbox one which contains nothing other than absolute criticism and condemnation of Israel. Yes, Israel has committed acts it shouldn't have, but this tendency to go hysterical about "genocide" caused by Israel does not help anything. This absolutely blinkered approach to Israel, that Israel and Israelis are all bad and that they have never done any good is not helpful. This absolutely blinkered approach to Palestine, that Palestine and Palestinians are all angels and that they have never done anything bad doesn't help.
Surely to God, in Ireland people could be expected to understand that in a vicious conflict cycle, no party has a monopoly on good or bad. The IRA committed wrongs, but it was wronged too, so too the INLA, so too Sinn Féin, so too the nationalist/republican community, so too the UFF, so too the UDA, so too the UVF, so too the unionist/loyalist community, so too the RUC, so too the British Army and so too the politicians in the six counties, in London and in Dublin. Nobody comes out of a conflict of this style smelling of roses, and the Troubles should have taught us that. But pro-Palestinians want to present a Disney version of the conflict in the Middle East with Palestine as Peter Pan and Israel as Captain Hook.
That's why dialogue and discussion on Palestine and Israel is impossible.0 -
Tuisceanch wrote: »It's a thread and you added some farce. I wouldn't be so grandiose about how you think you've affected anybody's thinking. They've heard it all before and it just amuses them. Nothing more and nothing less.
Again there you go, you say you won't respond to me but you do.
As I've said, discussion on this topic with anyone who is pro-Palestinian is impossible because ye see everything in black and white.0 -
One thing I would suggest to anyone with even the slightest interest in this topic is to get hold of a copy of the game PeaceMaker. Its based on the conflict between Israel and Palestine and you play the role of either the Israeli Prime Minister or the Palestinian President. Your goal is to keep the violence down and to eventually lead the situation to a two-state solution. Its a huge eye-opener, both playing it as "your" side of the struggle and as the "other" side. I more than expect I will get abused again even for putting this message up.0
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Ignorant etc. wrote: »However, the pro-Palestinian argument is a soapbox one which contains nothing other than absolute criticism and condemnation of Israel. Yes, Israel has committed acts it shouldn't have, but this tendency to go hysterical about "genocide" caused by Israel does not help anything. This absolutely blinkered approach to Israel, that Israel and Israelis are all bad and that they have never done any good is not helpful. This absolutely blinkered approach to Palestine, that Palestine and Palestinians are all angels and that they have never done anything bad doesn't help.
There is a quite a bit of truth in this, I mean I've not been shy of accusing Israel of war crimes, incompetence, needless slaughter and an unwillingness to pursue the peace process. And for this some posters have intimated that I'm some kind of suspicious agent with multiple accounts or a paid interest in this discussion. Heaven forfend that an Irishman should look at our own history of violent compromise and concessions to the UK and come up with something other than uncritical hatred of Israel.0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »I've nothing to get over. You didn't offend me by saying I was from England. I just thought it was a silly assumption to make.
Why do you keep saying you can't be bothered to talk to me but you always respond to my posts? If my views mattered so little to you why would you bother?
To answer your question about whether I would like a civil discourse. Yes, of course I would. But as the overwhelming majority of pro-Palestinians are absolutely firebrand, that's impossible on this topic. I have never heard one word of acknowledgement for anything good Israel has ever done from a pro-Palestinian. I have never heard one word of criticism for Palestine from a pro-Palestinian. Ye tend to see everything in black and white. Palestine good, Israel bad. Most pro-Israelis, apart from right-wing or orthodox zealouts will admit that the settlements are not a good thing. That it is not right that a people have to live in squalour. That the trade restrictions are unjust. That the wall creates more problems for the Palestinians than it solves. That the curfews on the entire Palestinian population are a problem. That the Yesha council is a bad extremist group. That this conflict will not be resolved until both parties engage in dialogue, and that Fatah offers the best possibility for such dialogue.
However, the pro-Palestinian argument is a soapbox one which contains nothing other than absolute criticism and condemnation of Israel. Yes, Israel has committed acts it shouldn't have, but this tendency to go hysterical about "genocide" caused by Israel does not help anything. This absolutely blinkered approach to Israel, that Israel and Israelis are all bad and that they have never done any good is not helpful. This absolutely blinkered approach to Palestine, that Palestine and Palestinians are all angels and that they have never done anything bad doesn't help.
Surely to God, in Ireland people could be expected to understand that in a vicious conflict cycle, no party has a monopoly on good or bad. The IRA committed wrongs, but it was wronged too, so too the INLA, so too Sinn Féin, so too the nationalist/republican community, so too the UFF, so too the UDA, so too the UVF, so too the unionist/loyalist community, so too the RUC, so too the British Army and so too the politicians in the six counties, in London and in Dublin. Nobody comes out of a conflict of this style smelling of roses, and the Troubles should have taught us that. But pro-Palestinians want to present a Disney version of the conflict in the Middle East with Palestine as Peter Pan and Israel as Captain Hook.
That's why dialogue and discussion on Palestine and Israel is impossible.
Well your initial lenghty post aside from the "Up the IDF" was interesting in that you provided an account of your own background hence my curiosity as to where you had grown up. This post is not something I find contentious but the only reason I had no interest in what you then chose to discuss was because the manner in which you conducted yourself was,in my opinion,offensive and evasive. I was,however,interested to know why you would behave in such a manner since you seem capable of so much more. I can see the merits of the issues you raise here but since I'm loathe to tarnish everybody with the same brush and prefer to treat people on an individual basis I don't know why you don't do the same. If you were honest you're would see that you're looking for the things in this thread which you say you abhor0 -
Ignorant etc. wrote: »One thing I would suggest to anyone with even the slightest interest in this topic is to get hold of a copy of the game PeaceMaker. Its based on the conflict between Israel and Palestine and you play the role of either the Israeli Prime Minister or the Palestinian President. Your goal is to keep the violence down and to eventually lead the situation to a two-state solution. Its a huge eye-opener, both playing it as "your" side of the struggle and as the "other" side. I more than expect I will get abused again even for putting this message up.
Why would you be abused for that. You made an interesting contribution. Don't be so unfair on people is my advice to you.0 -
Irish Praetorian wrote: »There is a quite a bit of truth in this, I mean I've not been shy of accusing Israel of war crimes, incompetence, needless slaughter and an unwillingness to pursue the peace process. And for this some posters have intimated that I'm some kind of suspicious agent with multiple accounts or a paid interest in this discussion. Heaven forfend that an Irishman should look at our own history of violent compromise and concessions to the UK and come up with something other than uncritical hatred of Israel.
I think the problem is that there are quite a few Irish people, and British too, who have an absolutely black and white view of the Troubles. As much as you get "Republicans" banging on about f**king H*ns, you get "Loyalists" banging on about f**king T**gs, and neither helps. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence looking at the Troubles has to accept that whilst Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were massive players in bringing peace from one side of the divide, so were David Ervine and Gusty Spence on the other. That should be proof enough that in vicious conflict cycles like the one in Israel, a simplistic view of one side good, the other side bad, is ridiculous, and worse than ridiculous, is downright destructive.0 -
Tuisceanch wrote: »Well your initial lenghty post aside from the "Up the IDF" was interesting in that you provided an account of your own background hence my curiosity as to where you had grown up. This post is not something I find contentious but the only reason I had no interest in what you then chose to discuss was because the manner in which you conducted yourself was,in my opinion,offensive and evasive. I was,however,interested to know why you would behave in such a manner since you seem capable of so much more. I can see the merits of the issues you raise here but since I'm loathe to tarnish everybody with the same brush and prefer to treat people on an individual basis I don't know why you don't do the same. If you were honest you're would see that you're looking for the things in this thread which you say you abhor
OK, but why, as soon as anyone says anything remotely pro-Israeli, do pro-Palestinians, as evidenced by this thread, go hysterical.
I'm fed up of this Palestine good, Israel bad which pro-Palestinians force feed to everyone. If there was even the slightest acknowledgement on the Palestinian side of the wrong done by Palestinians, then a constructive discussion could take place. It is simply not fair to tarnish all Israelis as bad, no more than it would be fair to tarnish all Palestinians as bad.
I also find it offensive that people who hold marches for Palestine, collect for Palestine and even take Palestinian flags to things like GAA matches would more than likely kick the sh1t out of anyone they saw with anything which represented Israel. I went to the Cork - Tipp match at the weekend and there were loads of people with Palestinian flags. Do you honestly think I would have been safe had I brought an Israeli flag?0 -
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Irish Praetorian wrote: »There is a quite a bit of truth in this, I mean I've not been shy of accusing Israel of war crimes, incompetence, needless slaughter and an unwillingness to pursue the peace process. And for this some posters have intimated that I'm some kind of suspicious agent with multiple accounts or a paid interest in this discussion. Heaven forfend that an Irishman should look at our own history of violent compromise and concessions to the UK and come up with something other than uncritical hatred of Israel.
Oh look
The nightshift has arrived :rolleyes:0
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