Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

Ignorant etc.

bumper234 wrote: »

But anyone pro Palestinian is automatically labeled an anti semite :rolleyes:

I think the current wave of pro-Palestinian support stinks of anti-semitism. Why do people care so much about the Palestinians for example, whilst very few know about, and even fewer care, for example, the plight of the Rohingya (also Muslims) in Burma?

Sorry, but I don't see street protests, mass media coverage and people collecting and raising support for the Rohingya. Why?

RustyNut

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Why do people care so much about the Palestinians for example,

Because Innocent men women and children are being bombed,starved and left to die horrible deaths due to bombing of their most basic services.

Ignorant etc.

RustyNut wrote: »

Because Innocent men women and children are being bombed,starved and left to die horrible deaths due to bombing of their most basic services.

Nice to see that you were so quick to pick up on half of my sentence that you even left the comma showing that there was more to come.

OK, I'll spell it out to you. You so evidently care about Palestine. Why aren't you so vociferous in your support of the Rohingya? Why particularly the Palestinians? Why particularly anti Israel? Why not protest on behalf of the Rohingya? Why not support their plight? After all, the genocide being perpretrated on them is absolutely undeniable. Amnesty International calls them the most persecuted people in the world. They don't even have some of the basic things that the Palestinians have. They don't even have a nationality or a citizenship for Christ sake. But no, you focus solely on Palestine and Israel. Why?

Irish Praetorian

bumper234 wrote: »

Oh look



The nightshift has arrived :rolleyes:

Thank you for that warm welcome, it's good to know you are so open to listen to people with differences in opinion.

Tuisceanch

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

OK, but why, as soon as anyone says anything remotely pro-Israeli, do pro-Palestinians, as evidenced by this thread, go hysterical.

That's just the nature of threads. You find what you're looking for. If you enter a thread and shout "Up the IDF" and then post a list of familiar talking points then you'll attract that sort of response. Since I've heard plenty on those subjects before I was more interested in what you said about the rise of anti-semitism in Europe.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

I'm fed up of this Palestine good, Israel bad which pro-Palestinians force feed to everyone. If there was even the slightest acknowledgement on the Palestinian side of the wrong done by Palestinians, then a constructive discussion could take place. It is simply not fair to tarnish all Israelis as bad, no more than it would be fair to tarnish all Palestinians as bad.

I don't equate the policies of the Israeli government with the Israeli people and I'm quick to point out the courage of Israelis in Israel who are protesting their government policies. What I see unfolding in Israel society though is quite disturbing and it is something which is also a worry in the US and I don't think it should be ignored.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

I also find it offensive that people who hold marches for Palestine, collect for Palestine and even take Palestinian flags to things like GAA matches would more than likely kick the sh1t out of anyone they saw with anything which represented Israel. I went to the Cork - Tipp match at the weekend and there were loads of people with Palestinian flags. Do you honestly think I would have been safe had I brought an Israeli flag?

Well I was at the last demonstration in Dublin and as somebody pointed out they were shocked that the organisers were chanting 'from the river to the sea'. I personally was not comfortable with that chant and would disassociate myself from it. However I do think it is important that people feel emboldened to start to demonstrate against important issues both internationally and domestically and unfortunately that means fraternising with people whose viewpoint you don't entirely share. And no I don't think you would be safe if you had carried an Israeli flag into the ground.But if you feel strongly enough about it then maybe you should risk it..I don't know.

Ignorant etc.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Thank you for that warm welcome, it's good to know you are so open to listen to people with differences in opinion.

Its funny how quiet they've gone on my question about the Rohingya. Particularly as it would be so easy for them to support and learn about the Rohingya cause, given that there are a number of Rohingya refugees in at least two towns in Ireland. But no, you'll see no street protests for the most persecuted people in the world, you won't be asked by anyone to donate money, you won't see Rohingya flags in the street or at GAA matches.

Tuisceanch

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Nice to see that you were so quick to pick up on half of my sentence that you even left the comma showing that there was more to come.

OK, I'll spell it out to you. You so evidently care about Palestine. Why aren't you so vociferous in your support of the Rohingya? Why particularly the Palestinians? Why particularly anti Israel? Why not protest on behalf of the Rohingya? Why not support their plight? After all, the genocide being perpretrated on them is absolutely undeniable. Amnesty International calls them the most persecuted people in the world. They don't even have some of the basic things that the Palestinians have. They don't even have a nationality or a citizenship for Christ sake. But no, you focus solely on Palestine and Israel. Why?

Irish Praetorian raised the same question. It's an interesting and important question. I provided a smidgen of an answer but I came across something in a video recently which also raised that point and I will look for it now.

Awkward Badger

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Nice to see that you were so quick to pick up on half of my sentence that you even left the comma showing that there was more to come.

OK, I'll spell it out to you. You so evidently care about Palestine. Why aren't you so vociferous in your support of the Rohingya? Why particularly the Palestinians? Why particularly anti Israel? Why not protest on behalf of the Rohingya? Why not support their plight? After all, the genocide being perpretrated on them is absolutely undeniable. Amnesty International calls them the most persecuted people in the world. They don't even have some of the basic things that the Palestinians have. They don't even have a nationality or a citizenship for Christ sake. But no, you focus solely on Palestine and Israel. Why?

I'd imagine people are simply sick of this question. Its been asked and answered countless time on this thread. And once you've done your bit no doubt the next one will be in to start it all over again. The pro Israel side only seem to have so many arguments for trying to defend human rights violations, breaches of international law, ignoring UN resolutions and murdering innocent men woman and children.

Primary among those argument is "Yeah but what about those guys, you just hate jews that's why".

This thread isn't about Burma or the Rohingya and I'm sick to my fcuking teeth of apologist after apologist taking their turn trying to defend the indefensible by trying to muddy the waters with bullshít and brain dead accusations of anti semitism. People don't hate Jews, they hate scum. Scum with no regard for human life that cannot conduct themselves to any standard the civilised world deems acceptable. As long as the Israeli state continues to conduct itself in such a manner people in this country will try to make an impact and force our own governments hand in making a stand against it. And no amount of whataboutery and false accusation in the world will change that. So send in the next one on your way out like a good fellow.

Irish Praetorian

Awkward Badger wrote: »

I'd imagine people are simply sick of this question. Its been asked and answered countless time on this thread. And once you've done your bit no doubt the next one will be in to start it all over again. The pro Israel side only seem to have so many arguments for trying to defend human rights violations, breaches of international law, ignoring UN resolutions and murdering innocent men woman and children.

Primary among those argument is "Yeah but what about those guys, you just hate jews that's why".

This thread isn't about Burma or the Rohingya and I'm sick to my fcuking teeth of apologist after apologist taking their turn trying to defend the indefensible by trying to muddy the waters with bullshít and brain dead accusations of anti semitism. People don't hate Jews, they hate scum. Scum with no regard for human life that cannot conduct themselves to any standard the civilised world deems acceptable. As long as the Israeli state continues to conduct itself in such a manner people in this country will try to make an impact and force our own governments hand in making a stand against it. And no amount of whataboutery and false accusation in the world will change that. So send in the next one on your way out like a good fellow.

Allow me to try and explain how this feels from the other side of the coin;

The US/NATO/Other proposes intervening in Iraq on the grounds that its a humanitarian hell hole with people living under an intolerable regime, people say 'no none of our affair'.

Ditto Libya
Ditto Syria
Ditto Crimea

So these places either get intervened unilaterally after much protest and opposition or get slapped with some targeted (and typically ineffective) sanctions.

You can add to this list of places, other conflicts around the world (which I believe someone here termed 'obscure nations') which don't get the media or international attention that these places do, despite some pretty horrific body counts.

But, then we get Israel behaving in a pretty similar fashion to some of these places (you could say Syria for gratuitous targeting of civilians, China for displacement of people from their land, CAR for body count) and it inspires in people (as evidenced by this thread) a kind of zeal, energy and venom that is utterly unprecedented. I mean heck you can feel it in some of the posts we have seen here, the sheer anger which comes across in some of these written pieces, which begs a simple question for people looking at other conflicts, 'why can't we get this much attention?'. Now some will say 'oh they're just anti-Semites' - its not an explanation I particularly buy myself, atleast not for most people, but its the simplest and most obvious one people tend to jump to. What I'm really interested in is why people here, in the ether of the topic, feel this is so? Genuine question.

Ignorant etc.

Awkward Badger wrote: »

I'd imagine people are simply sick of this question. Its been asked and answered countless time on this thread. And once you've done your bit no doubt the next one will be in to start it all over again. The pro Israel side only seem to have so many arguments for trying to defend human rights violations, breaches of international law, ignoring UN resolutions and murdering innocent men woman and children.

Primary among those argument is "Yeah but what about those guys, you just hate jews that's why".

This thread isn't about Burma or the Rohingya and I'm sick to my fcuking teeth of apologist after apologist taking their turn trying to defend the indefensible by trying to muddy the waters with bullshít and brain dead accusations of anti semitism. People don't hate Jews, they hate scum. Scum with no regard for human life that cannot conduct themselves to any standard the civilised world deems acceptable. As long as the Israeli state continues to conduct itself in such a manner people in this country will try to make an impact and force our own governments hand in making a stand against it. And no amount of whataboutery and false accusation in the world will change that. So send in the next one on your way out like a good fellow.

That is why I hate Hamas. They bombard Israel with thousands of rockets and people expect the Israelis to do nothing about it. They dig terror tunnels under Israel and expect the Israelis to do nothing about it.

Your kind of attitude is exactly why I started my messages with Up the IDF! You have no wish to engage in dialogue and have zero tolerance for anyone with a different viewpoint to you. Much like Hamas.

Hamas is a terror organisation which revels in death. The more the better. The people of Gaza voted in Hamas, so to a certain extent, yes they are as responsible for this situation as Hamas themselves. Do you seriously believe that, during the Troubles, Westminster would have been happy and would have sat back and done nothing had the population of the Irish Republic voted Sinn Féin into power? Seriously? Do you not think that the population of Britain would have been appalled and would have taken a very dim view of Ireland for pursuing such an option?

As much as you feel the Israel side trots out the same old reasons, your side lies its head off coming up with rubbish like the genocide story.

I see no thread on here supporting the Rohingya, I see no thread on here supporting countless persecuted peoples around the world. I see no street protests for them, other than the ones organised by the people themselves. Why? There must be some sinister reason. Why does a tiny strip of land thousands of miles from here with absolutely zero connection to here cause people to get so flustered whilst there are countless other issues in the world that are completely ignored? Why is the Aboriginal situation in Australia ignored? After all, that's a country with a strong connection to Ireland. Or is it OK when its European settlers that are doing the persecuting?

Your attitude is absolutely unhelpful and it shows the weakness of your own convictions that you descend immediately into insult.

Oh, and yes, people do hate Jews. Almost every British newspaper, and other European newspapers have reported on the rise of anti-semitism in Europe in recent weeks. To say people don't hate Jews is ridiculous. What? Nobody, not a single person?

Tuisceanch

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

What I'm really interested in is why people here, in the ether of the topic, feel this is so? Genuine question.

Well one reason I postulated before was that the willful hijacking of the tragedy of the Holocaust victims by the Israeli government and it's supporters to provide a moral high ground to perpetuate their barbaric policies besmirches their memories.

Also the length and duration of this particular conflict and the role of the western powers in it's creation is a cause of large scale resentment amongst it's neighbouring countries. It is widely perceived that a just resolution to this problem might create conditions for a peaceful middle east.

The role that Israel plays in protecting the oil interests of the west is of primary importance to us and also a reason for why people did not buy into the justification proffered for the invasion of Iraq.

Many of the other conflicts are recent and there is not so much understanding of their causes.

Also it is beneficial to understand the manner in which this conflict is reported,the history of the conflict,the role of US aid and it's nature and rationale for it's partnership. This allows people to gain a better understanding of other issues.

Little CuChulainn

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Thank you for that warm welcome, it's good to know you are so open to listen to people with differences in opinion.

I don't know about the others, but it's not your opinion that makes me think you are not Irish. For me it's your language and manner. You speak like someone who has learned English as a foreign language at a very advanced level. Also, the way you address people is extremely polite and comes off as accepting their opinion while simultaneously rejecting all they said. It's very diplomatic.

But like I said, that's just my opinion.

Irish Praetorian

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I don't know about the others, but it's not your opinion that makes me think you are not Irish. For me it's your language and manner. You speak like someone who has learned English as a foreign language at a very advanced level. Also, the way you address people is extremely polite and comes off as accepting their opinion while simultaneously rejecting all they said. It's very diplomatic.

But like I said, that's just my opinion.

Would you mind terribly if I quoted that on another forum

As for verifying that I am Irish, well I'm not sure what I can do to prove that to you, I would simply say just because someone is Irish doesn't mean they are intrinsically tied to one political viewpoint.

A Dub in Glasgo

If Ignorant etc & Irish Praetorian read the whole thread and the other one, they will see why Pro-Israeli new posters / long time lurkers are treated with suspicion.

Irish Praetorian

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

If Ignorant etc & Irish Praetorian read the whole thread and the other one, they will see why Pro-Israeli new posters / long time lurkers are treated with suspicion.

Surely it is the arguments that should be treat with suspicion rather than the people making them?

A Dub in Glasgo

You will get the picture if you read the whole thread and the other one

Ignorant etc.

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Well one reason I postulated before was that the willful hijacking of the tragedy of the Holocaust victims by the Israeli government and it's supporters to provide a moral high ground to perpetuate their barbaric policies besmirches their memories.

Also the length and duration of this particular conflict and the role of the western powers in it's creation is a cause of large scale resentment amongst it's neighbouring countries. It is widely perceived that a just resolution to this problem might create conditions for a peaceful middle east.

The role that Israel plays in protecting the oil interests of the west is of primary importance to us and also a reason for why people did not buy into the justification proffered for the invasion of Iraq.

Many of the other conflicts are recent and there is not so much understanding of their causes.

Still I would be more inclined to support a truly persecuted people who don't even have the money, weaponry or any other means to protect themselves, as an example, I give the Rohingya.

Also, I firmly believe that a peaceful resolution to the Israeli - Palestinian conflict remains impossible whilst Hamas remains powerful and important. Hamas is an extreme Islamic terror group, and like any other extreme group, and I include the Yesha in this, there is no knowing where their demands will end. I do not, and will not, subject Fatah to the same level of criticism. Fatah has, and does, commit mistakes, as too does the Israeli government, but neither are the monsters that either side likes to paint them as. Hamas is a cancer though, not only on Israel, but also on Fatah, Palestine and the Palestinian people. With Hamas, there can never be peace. Certainly not whilst Israel exists and then after that, God knows where they would stop. Initially people thought ISIS was solely concerned with the "liberation" of Syria. Look what that has grown into.

I appreciate you saying you found the "from the river to the sea" chanting abhorrent. Its not only abhorrent though, its dangerous. They should also be arrested for it, because it is an incitement to terror. I'm not sure of Ireland's laws, but in the UK the law is that you can be arrested for that kind of behaviour.

However, I do remain suspicious of the vast majority who are so interested in a small strip of land thousands of miles from here which has absolutely no connection to Ireland (nor to the UK). I'm also suspicious of those who have no interest in other issues like the Rohingya. There's a number of possibilities that come to mind. First, the anti-semitic argument. I don't accept that a centuries old problem has suddenly vanished. People have always been anti-semitic. Obviously not everyone, but there has always been that current. And to deny that some people support Palestine because they are anti-semitic is as redundant as denying that some people who support Israel do so because they are anti-Islamist. Another possibility is that its sexy. The Palestinians fight, there are terrorist groups there, people are attracted by conflict. For example, the Rohingya issue isn't sexy, because they don't, or rather can't, fight. The third possibility is the sheep mentality. For some reason, this issue has gotten into the psyche and most people are quite happy to follow what their peers tell them. A fourth idea is that with the over-zealousness of Europeans to prove that they are not racist, at least in Ireland and the UK, people are attracted to the non-white side in the Israeli - Palestinian conflict.

Ignorant etc.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

If Ignorant etc & Irish Praetorian read the whole thread and the other one, they will see why Pro-Israeli new posters / long time lurkers are treated with suspicion.

How relevant to the discussion :rolleyes:.

dav3

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

...

We can play the whataboutery game all night long. Do you not think the money you give to the war criminals of the IDF would be better spent on the causes listed by yourself?

Do you wrap the Rohingya flag around you at night instead of the israeli fleg?

Have you tried to start a thread or organise a march for all these causes?

These points have been covered time and time again. It is whataboutery, it deflects away from the war crimes carried out by Israel and it is a false equivalence.

If a group of people are talking about cancer you do not get people barging into the conversation screaming 'what about AIDS'.

There have been many demonstrations and marches around Ireland in solidarity with various countries. Syria, Iraq, Egypt to name but a few. I'm surprised you haven't mentioned them.

To ask "what about..." takes away from the debate and is a deflection tactic. It is currently an attempt to deflect from the genocide being committed by Israel.

Awkward Badger

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

That is why I hate Hamas. They bombard Israel with thousands of rockets and people expect the Israelis to do nothing about it. They dig terror tunnels under Israel and expect the Israelis to do nothing about it.

More nonsense we've heard a thousand times. Nobody expects Israel to do nothing while its attacked by rockets they expect them to respond with a proportionate response in line with international law. Yet they fail to do so and show no regard for human life.

Your kind of attitude is exactly why I started my messages with Up the IDF! You have no wish to engage in dialogue and have zero tolerance for anyone with a different viewpoint to you. Much like Hamas.

You started out that way because your a troll. I have engaged on this plenty, its tough to keep engaging facing the same tired and word nonsense trying to deflect attention away what Israel have actually done and are doing.

Hamas is a terror organisation which revels in death. The more the better. The people of Gaza voted in Hamas, so to a certain extent, yes they are as responsible for this situation as Hamas themselves. Do you seriously believe that, during the Troubles, Westminster would have been happy and would have sat back and done nothing had the population of the Irish Republic voted Sinn Féin into power? Seriously? Do you not think that the population of Britain would have been appalled and would have taken a very dim view of Ireland for pursuing such an option?

Now you're getting to it, Hamas despite being democratically elected are terrorists and the people voted for them so they are all responsible for...... for what exactly ? Building tunnels, firing rockets into a billion dollar missile defence system ? Voting for an organisation that builds tunnels and fires ineffective rockets for the freedom of the people against an occupying state, who occupy Palestinian land in contraventions with UN resolutions with no regard for their basic human rights. For this they must be slaughtered ? Tell me again how Hamas are the terrorists ?

As much as you feel the Israel side trots out the same old reasons, your side lies its head off coming up with rubbish like the genocide story.

My side being pro peace, pro human rights, pro international law ? My side views what actually happens in a reasonable way. Your side tries to deflect, obscure the support, the actions, the history because there is no defence for what Israel has done.

I see no thread on here supporting the Rohingya, I see no thread on here supporting countless persecuted peoples around the world. I see no street protests for them, other than the ones organised by the people themselves. Why? There must be some sinister reason. Why does a tiny strip of land thousands of miles from here with absolutely zero connection to here cause people to get so flustered whilst there are countless other issues in the world that are completely ignored? Why is the Aboriginal situation in Australia ignored? After all, that's a country with a strong connection to Ireland. Or is it OK when its European settlers that are doing the persecuting?

Because people feel they wont have any impact. Israel is in the UN, is has an embassy here, we trade with Israel, its a conflict that goes back a long time, they are continually supported by major western powers while refusing to operate in line with international law. Was the situation in South Africa ignored ? There is no sinister reason why this issue gets more attention only an eagerness on your part and the part of others to find an easy way out of supporting such horrendous acts. Must be everyone else, they just hate Jews, poor little Israel never gets a fair shake. All nonsense to avoid dealing with the facts and reality of what that poor little state has done. Butcher and murder innocent people, ignore international law to do it including indiscriminately killing people sheltering in UN shelters including UN staff. Ignore UN resolutions and created and supported illegal settlements.

Your attitude is absolutely unhelpful and it shows the weakness of your own convictions that you descend immediately into insult.

Immediately ? I've discussed and engaged on this topic a lot in the face of nothing but nonsense and crap from those trying to defend Israel. Excuse me if I'm sick of listing to the same of deflective nonsense.

Oh, and yes, people do hate Jews. Almost every British newspaper, and other European newspapers have reported on the rise of anti-semitism in Europe in recent weeks. To say people don't hate Jews is ridiculous. What? Nobody, not a single person?

Yeah that's what I mean't not one person on the face of the earth hates Jews :rolleyes: I meant in relation to this issue. Jews and anti semitism have nothing to do with Israeli war crimes and human rights violations ? Nothing. Crying anti semitism is just another handy way to avoid having to face the reality of the crimes committed by the Israeli state.

A Dub in Glasgo

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

How relevant to the discussion :rolleyes:.

More relevant than you will ever know

Ignorant etc.

dav3 wrote: »

We can play the whataboutery game all night long. Do you not think the money you give to the war criminals of the IDF would be better spent on the causes listed by yourself?

Do you wrap the Rohingya flag around you at night instead of the israeli fleg?

Have you tried to start a thread or organise a march for all these causes?

These points have been covered time and time again. It is whataboutery, it deflects away from the war crimes carried out by Israel and it is a false equivalence.

If a group of people are talking about cancer you do not get people barging into the conversation screaming 'what about AIDS'.

There have been many demonstrations and marches around Ireland in solidarity with various countries. Syria, Iraq, Egypt to name but a few. I'm surprised you haven't mentioned them.

To ask "what about..." takes away from the debate and is a deflection tactic. It is currently an attempt to deflect from the genocide being committed by Israel.

As I've stated there is no genocide. If there is, why does the Palestinian population keep going up? Israel must be pretty bad at genocide.

I didn't start this thread, I didn't start any threat. I'm just responding to bigotry.

Also, who says I wrap myself in any fleg? What is a fleg by the way?

I'm absolutely fed up with this discussion. There's no talking to bigots.

I hope Hamas leads Palestinian to whatever it calls freedom and when, in ten years time, it has created the medieval sh1thole that it seeks then come back to me and tell me whether it was right to back Hamas.

And before you start with accusations of racism, I have stated time and again that I have sympathy for Fatah. Fatah is a progressive group. Hamas is a group of religious bigots and murderers who once they've finished with Israel will start on the sections of their own people they don't agree with. Fatah is an option for Palestine, Hamas is a group of vicious b@stards who revel in death and when they have no more Jews to kill, will turn on their own. Don't forget, Al Qaeda sprung from an Afghani liberation group, until recently ISIS was thought of as a rebel group that only wanted "liberation" for Syria. To support Hamas is madness.

Ignorant etc.

Awkward Badger wrote: »

More nonsense we've heard a thousand times. Nobody expects Israel to do nothing while its attacked by rockets they expect them to respond with a proportionate response in line with international law. Yet they fail to do so and show no regard for human life.



You started out that way because your a troll. I have engaged on this plenty, its tough to keep engaging facing the same tired and word nonsense trying to deflect attention away what Israel have actually done and are doing.



Now you're getting to it, Hamas despite being democratically elected are terrorists and the people voted for them so they are all responsible for...... for what exactly ? Building tunnels, firing rockets into a billion dollar missile defence system ? Voting for an organisation that builds tunnels and fires ineffective rockets for the freedom of the people against an occupying state, who occupy Palestinian land in contraventions with UN resolutions with no regard for their basic human rights. For this they must be slaughtered ? Tell me again how Hamas are the terrorists ?



My side being pro peace, pro human rights, pro international law ? My side views what actually happens in a reasonable way. Your side tries to deflect, obscure the support, the actions, the history because there is no defence for what Israel has done.



Because people feel they wont have any impact. Israel is in the UN, is has an embassy here, we trade with Israel, its a conflict that goes back a long time, they are continually supported by major western powers while refusing to operate in line with international law. Was the situation in South Africa ignored ? There is no sinister reason why this issue gets more attention only an eagerness on your part and the part of others to find an easy way out of supporting such horrendous acts. Must be everyone else, they just hate Jews, poor little Israel never gets a fair shake. All nonsense to avoid dealing with the facts and reality of what that poor little state has done. Butcher and murder innocent people, ignore international law to do it including indiscriminately killing people sheltering in UN shelters including UN staff. Ignore UN resolutions and created and supported illegal settlements.



Immediately ? I've discussed and engaged on this topic a lot in the face of nothing but nonsense and crap from those trying to defend Israel. Excuse me if I'm sick of listing to the same of deflective nonsense.



Yeah that's what I mean't not one person on the face of the earth hates Jews :rolleyes: I meant in relation to this issue. Jews and anti semitism have nothing to do with Israeli war crimes and human rights violations ? Nothing. Crying anti semitism is just another handy way to avoid having to face the reality of the crimes committed by the Israeli state.

More terrorist supporting blether. There is not a single thing you said that centres in anyway with reality.

If you think Hamas is peace-loving, when Palestine does create its own state, go live there, then tell me how peace-loving Hamas is.

NotASheeple

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

If Ignorant etc & Irish Praetorian read the whole thread and the other one, they will see why Pro-Israeli new posters / long time lurkers are treated with suspicion.

Well they obviously haven't the manners to read the thread. Otherwise they might have learned a lot and saved us from absurdity. But it is weird when you see the likes of the 'Oh it's not genocide' excuses pop up again and it's almost word for word like the posts of a user who was banned weeks ago. All very strange.

Ignorant etc.

NotASheeple wrote: »

Well they obviously haven't the manners to read the thread. Otherwise they might have learned a lot and saved us from absurdity. But it is weird when you see the likes of the 'Oh it's not genocide' excuses pop up again and it's almost word for word like the posts of a user who was banned weeks ago. All very strange.

Ridiculous in the extreme, why should either of us read pages of racist rubbish? What are the Hamas rockets trying to do? Do you accuse Hamas of genocide as well, or is that counterproductive to your argument? What do you think the Hamas rockets are trying to do? Produce a firework display?

Ignorant etc.

I'm out of this non-discussion. It just follows the same repetitive thread, if someone is Pro-Palestinian they can say anything they like, however, inciteful. If someone is pro-Israeli, their opinion counts for nothing. What a great way to conduct a dialogue. Absolute waste of time.

Awkward Badger

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

More terrorist supporting blether. There is not a single thing you said that centres in anyway with reality.

If you think Hamas is peace-loving, when Palestine does create its own state, go live there, then tell me how peace-loving Hamas is.

Did you even read what I wrote ? Because I never said anything about Hamas being peace loving.

A Dub in Glasgo

Awkward Badger wrote: »

Did you even read what I wrote ?

Read? Your expectations are high :pac:

SeaBreezes

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

As I've stated there is no genocide. If there is, why does the Palestinian population keep going up? Israel must be pretty bad at genocide.

I didn't start this thread, I didn't start any threat. I'm just responding to bigotry.

Also, who says I wrap myself in any fleg? What is a fleg by the way?

I'm absolutely fed up with this discussion. There's no talking to bigots.

I hope Hamas leads Palestinian to whatever it calls freedom and when, in ten years time, it has created the medieval sh1thole that it seeks then come back to me and tell me whether it was right to back Hamas.

And before you start with accusations of racism, I have stated time and again that I have sympathy for Fatah. Fatah is a progressive group. Hamas is a group of religious bigots and murderers who once they've finished with Israel will start on the sections of their own people they don't agree with. Fatah is an option for Palestine, Hamas is a group of vicious b@stards who revel in death and when they have no more Jews to kill, will turn on their own. Don't forget, Al Qaeda sprung from an Afghani liberation group, until recently ISIS was thought of as a rebel group that only wanted "liberation" for Syria. To support Hamas is madness.

And again you wriggle and turn. New shift at the shills... People here are not saying they support Hamas, they are saying with the slaughter of children, targeting of power plants, water plants, food depots, UN shelters, hospitals and medical staff. With international observers not being allowed in, with 2 million people currently dying of thirst/hunger/disease and NO humanitarian aid allowed through. This stinks of genocide..

And desperate people who are dying, and cannot GO anywhere. What choice do they have?

And hamas as the elected governing body, IS THEIR CHOICE. If they choose a 'medival' society as your post suggests. It is their CHOICE to make.

Israel has/should have no say in an independent states election of governing body.

bumper234

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

More terrorist supporting blether. There is not a single thing you said that centres in anyway with reality.

If you think Hamas is peace-loving, when Palestine does create its own state, go live there, then tell me how peace-loving Hamas is.

And again i will point out that Israel are the ones who have been using terrorism over the last month, you always seem to skip over that little detail :rolleyes:

dav3

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

I'm out of this non-discussion. It just follows the same repetitive thread, if someone is Pro-Palestinian they can say anything they like, however, inciteful. If someone is pro-Israeli, their opinion counts for nothing. What a great way to conduct a dialogue. Absolute waste of time.

Well I hope you at least feel better getting it all off your chest. Unfortunately your diatribe throughout the thread hasn't been very helpful in the debate.

Of course holding views such as

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

You can't support Palestine without supporting Hamas.

and barrelling into the thread with

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Up the IDF!

has not done you any favours. Just for future reference for when you come back as Ignorant etc zacharia or whatever you call yourself or will call yourself.

Good luck, all the best to you and your IDF friends, or, maybe not...

Irish Praetorian

SeaBreezes wrote: »

And again you wriggle and turn. New shift at the shills... People here are not saying they support Hamas, they are saying with the slaughter of children, targeting of power plants, water plants, food depots, UN shelters, hospitals and medical staff. With international observers not being allowed in, with 2 million people currently dying of thirst/hunger/disease and NO humanitarian aid allowed through. This stinks of genocide..

And desperate people who are dying, and cannot GO anywhere. What choice do they have?

And hamas as the elected governing body, IS THEIR CHOICE. If they choose a 'medival' society as your post suggests. It is their CHOICE to make.

Israel has/should have no say in an independent states election of governing body.

How many have died of thirst? How many have died out of hunger? Has the Israeli blockade expanded to include food and water now?

And say what you will about Hamas, when they play host to rocket attacks on another country they piss away the moral rectitude so painstakingly accrued by a population living under the occupation of their land and people. For that matter, I'm not really buying the 'Well we had no choice but to launch unguided missiles at Israeli population centres' shtick any more than you would buy 'well we had no choice to take out 4 children on a beach as potential military targets'.

bumper234

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

How many have died of thirst? How many have died out of hunger? Has the Israeli blockade expanded to include food and water now?

And say what you will about Hamas, when they play host to rocket attacks on another country they piss away the moral rectitude so painstakingly accrued by a population living under the occupation of their land and people. For that matter, I'm not really buying the 'Well we had no choice but to launch unguided missiles at Israeli population centres' shtick any more than you would buy 'well we had no choice to take out 4 children on a beach as potential military targets'.

Should the people of Ireland have been punished for the actions of the IRA? I posted a link earlier where groups (not Hamas) took responsibility for today's rocket attacks. How does Israel respond?

http://www.imemc.org/article/68909?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PalestineNews+%28Palestine+News%29

Upated: Including Three Children, Eleven Palestinians Killed In Gaza

Tuisceanch

There are people on both sides of the conflict and like us they do not all subscribe to the same point of view and like us would not wish to be bracketed under a particular label to dehumanise them so as to justify barbaric acts.

For instance I have mentioned on more than one occasion the fact that many Israeli citizens and Jewish activists abroad who are growing in number deplore the acts of the israeli government. I have also drawn attention to the ordinary Palestinian folk living under extraordinary difficult conditions. For example here:

"They will try to convince you that "Israel" is after Hamas and resistance fighters, but It's a reality that civilians including children are paying the highest price of this "Israeli" operation on Gaza. The news headlines today will be about the killing of 3 Hamas leaders in Gaza, and the hidden story is that another 8 children were killed only today by Israeli airstrikes. Noor Harazeen in Gaza"

I have also pointed out that there are groups of youths who have organized against the society that Hamas advocates much like I,although to a lesser extent,am opposed to the society that the Irish government is creating. They are people and they deserve to live in peace and afforded the rights that we take for granted. In Israel Jewish citizens do have those rights but less so Arabs and the Palestinians in the occupied territories live under martial law.Would that be acceptable to any of us? Also the casualties of the Palestinians are well in excess of those of the israelis.And finally the argument that Israel acts in self defense or is a willing partner for peace does not stand upto scrutiny. These issues have being discussed and those who advocate for the Israeli cause have being weak in providing any substantive evidence to dispute these points. This is not our problem as if you were convinced of your case then you should be able to argue back in a more substantive way than simply accentuating the trivial and ignoring the facts. Discuss the facts and see where you go with that.

Tuisceanch

bumper234 wrote: »

Should the people of Ireland have been punished for the actions of the IRA? I posted a link earlier where groups (not Hamas) took responsibility for today's rocket attacks. How does Israel respond?

http://www.imemc.org/article/68909?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PalestineNews+%28Palestine+News%29

Oh good you've just provided corroborating evidence for the post I made citing Noor Harazeen the Palestinian young woman reporter I have being following. Cross linking and checking facts against others is the means by which the debate is conducted by many and it is that standard which is expected of others.Is that unfair? Why should as a human be subject to an interrogation on whether I support Hamas just for having the temerity to express solidarity with the suffering of the Palestinians?

Ignorant etc.

dav3 wrote: »

Well I hope you at least feel better getting it all off your chest. Unfortunately your diatribe throughout the thread hasn't been very helpful in the debate.

Of course holding views such as



and barrelling into the thread with



has not done you any favours. Just for future reference for when you come back as Ignorant etc zacharia or whatever you call yourself or will call yourself.

Good luck, all the best to you and your IDF friends, or, maybe not...

Of course, holding pro-Israeli opinions, I would never have been welcomed here would I, no matter how moderate I kept my opinions? Why don't you retitle this thread "From The River To The Sea" because that's all you keep banging on about.

Oh and I will finish how I started...

UP THE IDF!

Tuisceanch

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Of course, holding pro-Israeli opinions, I would never have been welcomed here would I, no matter how moderate I kept my opinions? Why don't you retitle this thread "From The River To The Sea" because that's all you keep banging on about.

Oh and I will finish how I started...

UP THE IDF!

If you ever watch the IT crowd and are familiar with the episode about the German cannibal then you will appreciate the humour of this:

"How disappointing!"

A Dub in Glasgo

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Of course, holding pro-Israeli opinions, I would never have been welcomed here would I, no matter how moderate I kept my opinions? Why don't you retitle this thread "From The River To The Sea" because that's all you keep banging on about.

Oh and I will finish how I started...

UP THE IDF!

The 5th time you said you'll finish! You will be back as you will be reading this thread and the next time the IDF blow children up, you will give us your words of wisdom

Irish Praetorian

bumper234 wrote: »

Should the people of Ireland have been punished for the actions of the IRA? I posted a link earlier where groups (not Hamas) took responsibility for today's rocket attacks. How does Israel respond?

How come when I change the topic like that it's called 'whataboutery' but when someone the other side of the table does it, its fine?

I mean you can say 'why should Palestinian children pay the price?' and I can do 'why should Israeli civilians pay the price?' and were left with little more than a game of Top Trumps: Human Suffering edition. I have no intention of defending the slaughter of innocents, but I do feel obligated to call people out when they claim people are dying of starvation and thirst or that there is a systematic extermination going on; hyperbolic claims which take us further from the truth.

Nodin

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

UP THE IDF!

...yes, that'll help enormously.

Irish Praetorian

Nodin wrote: »

...yes, that'll help enormously.

In his defence it's taken some of the flak of off me for daring to venture a contrary opinion.

Nodin

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

In his defence it's taken some of the flak of off me for daring to venture a contrary opinion.

You've been unfortunate enough to be taken as a shill, which turn up specifically for these debates. There's been a few, moreso in the earlier thread.

Irish Praetorian

Nodin wrote: »

You've been unfortunate enough to be taken as a shill, which turn up specifically for these debates. There's been a few, moreso in the earlier thread.

A pity none of those intimating that I am a shill could have the decency to report me to an admin, perhaps they prefer the idea that I am some Jewish student sitting in Tel Aviv to the prospect of me being proven not to be.

bumper234

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

How come when I change the topic like that it's called 'whataboutery' but when someone the other side of the table does it, its fine?

I mean you can say 'why should Palestinian children pay the price?' and I can do 'why should Israeli civilians pay the price?' and were left with little more than a game of Top Trumps: Human Suffering edition. I have no intention of defending the slaughter of innocents, but I do feel obligated to call people out when they claim people are dying of starvation and thirst or that there is a systematic extermination going on; hyperbolic claims which take us further from the truth.

I''m just pointing out that the regular ZOMG HAMAS IS KILLING THE JEWISH PEOPLE bs is exactly that.

Many have said that the Palestinian people are getting shelled because Hamas fire rockets and the Palestinian people voted for Hamas and so they are responsible for the Israeli strikes wiping out their families. Now i have just shown an article where several groups (not Hamas) have admitted firing rockets into Israel and Israel responded with air strikes on civilians. Now tell me

1) How is that not a disproportionate response?

2) How is that not a war crime?

3) What chance do the innocent civilians of Palestine (MANY of whom did not vote for Hamas) stand when Israel indiscriminately bombs the **** out of them after rocket attacks?

hju6

It's nice to see ITV are supporting DEC and mentioning it at the end of program's
Regularly

http://www.itv.com/news/2014-08-08/disasters-emergency-committee-gaza-appeal/

Nodin

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

A pity none of those intimating that I am a shill could have the decency to report me to an admin, perhaps they prefer the idea that I am some Jewish student sitting in Tel Aviv to the prospect of me being proven not to be.

Shills aren't necessarily Jewish, Israeli or in Tel Aviv.

Irish Praetorian

bumper234 wrote: »

I''m just pointing out that the regular ZOMG HAMAS IS KILLING THE JEWISH PEOPLE bs is exactly that.

Many have said that the Palestinian people are getting shelled because Hamas fire rockets and the Palestinian people voted for Hamas and so they are responsible for the Israeli strikes wiping out their families. Now i have just shown an article where several groups (not Hamas) have admitted firing rockets into Israel and Israel responded with air strikes on civilians. Now tell me

1) How is that not a disproportionate response?

2) How is that not a war crime?

3) What chance do the innocent civilians of Palestine (MANY of whom did not vote for Hamas) stand when Israel indiscriminately bombs the **** out of them after rocket attacks?

Well it appears for once I have the chance to call someone out for not reading the thread, because if you do read what I have posted I have said many of the same things you have said and agreed with the interpretations you have raised here.

I am not in the business of excusing actions of gross violence and destruction, simply because Israel is the one responsible, as convenient as that would be as a straw-man.

NotASheeple

Looks like someone touched a nerve...

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Ridiculous in the extreme, why should either of us read pages of racist rubbish?

If anti-Zionism is racism then count me in please.

But really, even the thickest of thicks would have been so enlightened by this thread at this stage. That they would now clearly understand what Zionism and its disgusting evils stand for.

But like many Zionist zealots before you, you are desperately, desperately trying to blur the lines. But it ain't working buddy. Anyone that defends the actions of the Israeli state, hasn't a moral leg to stand on.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

What are the Hamas rockets trying to do?

It's deplorable to fire rockets, especially if civilians are harmed. Which thankfully not many Israelis have been. But you haven't much to say about the 2100 Palestinians killed and the 9000 + wounded have ya. Like most Zionist apologists you might offer some token words, but they're always coated with a justification for the actions of Zionist murderers.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Do you accuse Hamas of genocide as well

No, unlike the IDF, thankfully I haven't seen any industrial scale killing of Israeli civilians by Hamas. Personally, I say the Hamas military wing would become an irrelevance once the Palestinians are giving their Homeland. But since Zionism created Hamas, they hate to lose them, I mean how else could they justify murdering Palestinians.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

What do you think the Hamas rockets are trying to do? Produce a firework display?

Glad you can make fun of the unfolding human tragedy in Gaza. Would you like to sit back with those fellow Zionists lovers outside Gaza, sit on a hill with a beer and laugh at the murder of Palestinians in Gaza?

Irish Praetorian

Nodin wrote: »

Shills aren't necessarily Jewish, Israeli or in Tel Aviv.

So I'm accused of being some mercenary opinion hired out by Hasbara then? Oh that's a wonderful step up.

Nodin

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

So I'm accused of being some mercenary opinion hired out by Hasbara then? Oh that's a wonderful step up.

I haven't accused you of anything, so I'm not sure where you got that notion from.