Request to bring laptop on annual leave, my rights?

Lainey_b01

Hi I work for an Irish subsidiary company and report into non irish management based outside EU. There is a culture in that location to be always on laptop /phone in evenings, weekends or annual leave.

The MD is based in that location and sent email on annual leave procedures today . In that email one or the 5 points was that laptop must be taken while on annual leave and checked. I think this is totally out of line. My annual leave is to get away from work not bring it with me! I work hard enough when in work ! We have no local HR. I would prefer to revert with employment law reference, work standard etc but can't find anything on line. Anyone here know?

I'm on an irish contract.

endacl

Would be a real bummer if you took the laptop, but couldn't get on to a wifi network while on holiday...

ted1

Do you get paid a premium to be on call?

Mrs OBumble

Taking it ... meh.

But checked? That means spending time actually doing work. Did he say how much time? I'm pretty sure that would be seen as a health-and-safety breach for Irish-based staff.

Have you got an colleagues in other EU locations who you can compare notes with? I'm picking that the French wouldn't take too kindly to that sort of thing.

Stheno

Lainey_b01 wrote: »

Hi I work for an Irish subsidiary company and report into non irish management based outside EU. There is a culture in that location to be always on laptop /phone in evenings, weekends or annual leave.

The MD is based in that location and sent email on annual leave procedures today . In that email one or the 5 points was that laptop must be taken while on annual leave and checked. I think this is totally out of line. My annual leave is to get away from work not bring it with me! I work hard enough when in work ! We have no local HR. I would prefer to revert with employment law reference, work standard etc but can't find anything on line. Anyone here know?

I'm on an irish contract.

France recently brought in an agreement on this (not a law) that prohibits employers from contacting employees out of hours, and equally places no onus on employees to check mails etc out of hours.

AFAIK there is nothing in Irish law that explicitly calls this out, I work in IT and for years, it's been a standard practice that if you are on leave and a SPOF (single point of failure) and something could come up, you'd check your mail when you could. No obligation, but it's fairly common practice.

There may be something deep in the likes of the Organisation of Working Time act, but nothing I am explicitly aware of.

Out of interest, is your parent company based in the States?

_Brian

This is a tough one.
I had a similar irish manager who expected us to be online on our shifts off. He got quite irritated when we weren't up to speed with stuff that happened on our time off immediately on arrival to work or he would ring asking about stuff at work when we were off.

Refusing someone like this can be a tricky one as while youse be right you're likely sealing your own fate regarding your future in the company - worth thinking of.

Like someone else said. Wifi abroad is notoriously hard to manage and ten you could just delete a system file and hand it back after holidays saying it just crashed.

Many will say tell him to F off, maybe they're right but this type of person will remember that. Make sure your happy with the potential repercussions if you do.

wexie

Stheno wrote: »

AFAIK there is nothing in Irish law that explicitly calls this out, I work in IT and for years, it's been a standard practice that if you are on leave and a SPOF (single point of failure) and something could come up, you'd check your mail when you could. No obligation, but it's fairly common practice.

Goddamn Blackberry :mad:

OP, the best advice I can give you is to have a good hard think about quite how much you like your job and quite how likely you'll find another one at short notice. Like people have already pointed out, you'd be well within your rights to give them short shrift however it's likely to go down like a fart in church.

If you like your job, how much would it pain you to spend half an hour (an hour?) every evening checking mail (is there a requirement for you to be sober? ) with a glass of sangria/beer/wine/vodka/methylated spirits to keep the peace?

There's no harm in letting them know you're only to be contacted in an absolute emergency though.

Alternatively you could tell them you're vacationing in Ballybackarseofnowhere and there's no mobile/wifi coverage: 'would you like me to expense a satphone sir?'

Bepolite

Simply raise a grievance or simply say no. There is no point barrack room layering (I know - oh the irony).

I vaguely remember a guy winning compensation for being contacted out of hours in the UK. This may have been on the basis of unfair dismissal though.

Lainey_b01

Hi,

Thanks for the responses. I report into a middle eastern location and we are the only EU subsidiary impacted by this communication.

I can understand the possibility of a requirement in IT, I work in finance team in a team so cover would be available all days expect weekends and public holidays. While on leave a colleague would be able to assist. We are also a support unit to the company rather time sensitive operation critical unit. I have no problem with receiving calls on urgent issues.

I'm concerned that if I can't respectively fight my corner on this one that it will be a expectation to have laptop with me at all times and mirroring the culture of 24/7 work culture of my middle eastern colleagues.

Plus next holiday is my honeymoon, whipping out the laptop over the champers not very romantic!

wexie

Lainey_b01 wrote: »

Hi,

Thanks for the responses. I report into a middle eastern location and we are the only EU subsidiary impacted by this communication.

I can understand the possibility of a requirement in IT, I work in finance team in a team so cover would be available all days expect weekends and public holidays. While on leave a colleague would be able to assist. We are also a support unit to the company rather time sensitive operation critical unit. I have no problem with receiving calls on urgent issues.

I'm concerned that if I can't respectively fight my corner on this one that it will be a expectation to have laptop with me at all times and mirroring the culture of 24/7 work culture of my middle eastern colleagues.

Plus next holiday is my honeymoon, whipping out the laptop over the champers not very romantic!

Could you try to compromise and say you're willing to bring your laptop so you'll have it with you in case it's needed and they can ring you in a real emergency?

Also, I would definitely make a point of telling them you're happy to be available normally (if you are that is) but considering the backup in place you would very much appreciate an exception to be made for your honeymoon....

uck51js9zml2yt

You are entitled to rest periods by law. Holidays come under this. Having to work while on a legal rest period would break the law in my opinion.
You could contact Nera for an official opinion.

Stheno

Laura Shrilling Pedometer wrote: »

You are entitled to rest periods by law. Holidays come under this. Having to work while on a legal rest period would break the law in my opinion.
You could contact Nera for an official opinion.

I think this is the best approach tbh, it's not covered by law, and it's far too widespread a practice that it's implicit that you will be available.

I'm covering for my boss next week, and one of the areas covered is "Call me if you need to", now I'll avoid it if at all possible.

scallywaggles

Ask them to contact you by phone given that it is your honeymoon. You'd have to check your contract otherwise, in some companies in the UK it is mandatory to take 2 weeks annual leave without any contact with the office, if you do check your emails etc you are subject to disciplinary proceedings, however this should be stated in your contract. Up to you in the end, what's more important to you your job or your life outside of it?

Stheno

scallywaggles wrote: »

Ask them to contact you by phone given that it is your honeymoon. You'd have to check your contract otherwise, in some companies in the UK it is mandatory to take 2 weeks annual leave without any contact with the office, if you do check your emails etc you are subject to disciplinary proceedings, however this should be stated in your contract. Up to you in the end, what's more important to you your job or your life outside of it?

Can you quote a law on that? It sounds more like company policy.

Here it is illegal not to get a min. of two weeks unbroken leave, nothing about being contacted though.

I know in some financial organisations here there is a two weeks rule with no contact, but that's for compliance purposes, not Annual leave rights.

wexie

Stheno wrote: »

Here it is illegal not to get a min. of two weeks unbroken leave, nothing about being contacted though.
.

Really? That's certainly not being enforced where I work, as a matter of fact in many cases it's actively discouraged.

Murray007

I have worked for a hard nosed large irish private company at a senior management level and although they never said to bring the laptop and check it, the gave appreciation verbally that that I did and I knew at my level it was expected (in that company, a 365 policy was mentioned without being defined) however they did not issue a documented dictate that I would work on hols. Even then I recorded work time and took it as extra days when I came back without quibble. That is illegal, it's late now so I am not going to try and look it up but google employee leave rights.

My current employer which is a large multi national, only a catastrophic issue would warrant even the MD or board being called upon on leave, no one else.

In summary, it's not on.

partyguinness

Murray007 wrote: »

I have worked for a hard nosed large irish private company at a senior management level and although they never said to bring the laptop and check it, the gave appreciation verbally that that I did and I knew at my level it was expected (in that company, a 365 policy was mentioned without being defined) however they did not issue a documented dictate that I would work on hols. Even then I recorded work time and took it as extra days when I came back without quibble. That is illegal, it's late now so I am not going to try and look it up but google employee leave rights.

My current employer which is a large multi national, only a catastrophic issue would warrant even the MD or board being called upon on leave, no one else.

In summary, it's not on.

That's the difficulty here. A lot of these companies have nods and winks and everyone knows what is expected i.e. bring your laptop, work through lunch. This macho culture that everyone must buy into.

Personally it's not on and you are in a difficcult position. What do you do? Say no and the implied risk to your career.

Why not take the laptop but it gets 'broken' or 'lost' in transit? See how that works...that is prob what I would do.

I think a Employment Appeal Tribunal (and I do have experience in this area) would side with ther OP on this but who wants to get tp that position!!

dudara

I work for a global firm with over 200,000 employees in a middle-senior management position. Our clients are also multinationals. I leave the laptop at home when on holidays. I turn off work mail on my iPhone. I will give my job every hour while working, but annual leave is annual leave. I arranged to take that leave with due notice , and I have the expectation that my reporting teams & upper management will continue without me.

I recently received an OOO from a European colleague. It made me laugh.

"Please be advised that I am on annual leave until August 1st. If your query is urgent, please resend it to me on August 1st"

partyguinness

My business partner just came back from two days off and we both laughed that it's just not worth it...lol. Switching off and then on again is just not worth it. But we would not expect the support staff to do this. TBH we would have to be totally self absorbed not to foresee the damage to moral this type of policy would have on staff. It's ok for us as we run the place and our choice.

I have taken 2 days off this calendar year with plenty of 10-12 days in a row...check emails 24/7 although I have a policy of not replying to clients outside business hours..learned that mistake the hard way. I will reply to colleagues though.

I just work my ass off even harder coming up to annual leave to make sure every client knows and then just trust the staff to get on with it. Guess what..the place has not burned down yet while I am away...

wexie

partyguinness wrote: »

My business partner just came back from two days off and we both laughed that it's just not worth it...lol. Switching off and then on again is just not worth it.

Work extra hard to get ready before holidays, then worry about what's going on while you're on holidays and then work extra hard after to catch up from having been on holidays.

Something very wrong with that picture isn't there?

:(:(

partyguinness

wexie wrote: »

Work extra hard to get ready before holidays, then worry about what's going on while you're on holidays and then work extra hard after to catch up from having been on holidays.

Something very wrong with that picture isn't there?

:(:(

Yes very much so but that's the nature of the beast. My father was self-employed with staff and it was/is all consuming for him and as I grew up with it, I don't know any different. The last holiday he took was in 1996 and he came back from 2 weeks in Spain a week early as he just couldnt relax...no emails or Blackberries then although he had a mobile. Actually booked a flight back on his own. Left my mother and siblings there...:eek:

Bepolite

dudara wrote: »

"Please be advised that I am on annual leave until August 1st. If your query is urgent, please resend it to me on August 1st"

And yet you're still on boards

CIARAN_BOYLE

At the end of the day if they let you go over it well you have a golde ticket to the eat. On the other hand is it worth the fuss and risk to defy them?

dudara

Bepolite wrote: »

And yet you're still on boards

It wasn't me, it was a colleague.

Lainey_b01

Hi all, this was an email sent by MD to all team members not just me. I feel that this written communication is setting the requirement to bring laptop on annual leave into policy. I think this is exploitative. Lugging the laptop on holidays as an exceptional situation is one thing but every holiday from it not on, especially as fellow team members can support in absence of others.

The J Stands for Jay

Would you be expected to pay the additional baggage fees if bringing a laptop meant you were over limits? I've had trips where i've only just been underweight. An extra bag for the laptop would've likely meant a charge.

_Brian

OP is on danger of capping his career with this company if he calls in an outside body or just refuses to bring his laptop.
These type if managers expect this and will likely be quite put out by a blank refusal.
I've seen managers deny employees pay raises and promotions year on year because the employee refused to come in for work on his rostered day off although he had already worked in excess of 50 hours. The manager never let this go, wen I left five years after the event he was still blocking this employees progress. This is how these people work.

circadian

I would approach it by saying that it's annual leave, there are others in place covering and that it is totally unacceptable to dictate what you can or can't do on your time off.

Other option is to go along with it and search for a position elsewhere on your return, if at all possible. It doesn't sound like a great environment to be in.

RedXIV

Maybe you could warn them that you will do a lot of drinking on this holiday, and then reply to a late night email with atrocious spelling and grammatical errors, maybe even a few jokes and they may get the hint that having people work on time they've scheduled to do what they want could actually cost the company more than they think.

Would not recommend you send this to a client, keep it internal

tinkerbell

Telling you to bring a laptop while on annual leave is taking the piss. It's one thing taking a Blackberry on holidays (which I also don't agree with but at least it's small and portable) but a laptop - hell no. There has to be some employment law against that. If not, I'd have no problem telling him that I would not be bringing work on holidays with me, especially on honeymoon.

I'd also start looking for another job.

Mrs OBumble

RedXIV wrote: »

Maybe you could warn them that you will do a lot of drinking on this holiday, and then reply to a late night email with atrocious spelling and grammatical errors, maybe even a few jokes and they may get the hint that having people work on time they've scheduled to do what they want could actually cost the company more than they think.

Not a recommended approach if your manager is based in a Middle East location.