Thinking of dog daycare - opinions please?

Frigga_92

Hi all

Our 2 miniature dachshund puppies are nearly 6 months old. We have had them since around the first week of May when they were 12 weeks old.
They get on really well with our 2 german shepherds, everybody loves everybody, and they are fine with people in our house.
From the very beginning when we brought them home, aside from walks, where they would meet a handful of people (we live in the middle of nowhere so not many), we also brought them out to Tramore a good few times when the beach was really busy (I mean very very busy as it was during the very good weather), allowing them to watch people going by and people also came over and petted them. They did bark a lot the first couple of times but gradually this decreased but never stopped and they are still very yappy.
We also brought the puppies into town a few times to sit outside cafes and again, they were yappy and nobody likes a yappy dog and I'm not one of those people who will just sit there and allow the dogs to wreck someone's head.

Last night our friend brought over his dog and the puppies just spent the entire time barking at the dog and our friend. It got really annoying for everyone involved, particularly the puppies and the other dog, who was just a bit fed up with them barking in his face but was very patient with them.
So I was having a look online last night and I think I'm too late for puppy classes - most places online say puppy classes are only available up to 18 weeks. However, a person that runs a dog daycare and puppy classes in Waterford has suggested dropping the puppies into dog daycare.

I'm just wondering if anyone has any experience with dog daycare in this kind of situation, where I am sending them somewhere to help correct their behaviour and make them more confident in themselves rather than just somewhere for them to be.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

muddypaws

It would depend how the daycare is run. Good ones do assessments, to see if it is suitable for your dog, as it doesn't suit every dog. TBH, the way your dogs are behaving, it may not be right for them, and could make them worse, it would be a form of flooding, which is an unethical way of training a dog. How many dogs would be at this day care centre, and could yours be kept seperate until they are kindly counter-conditioned to other dogs?

tk123

Firstly... THANK YOU!!! As an owner of 2 retrievers it's so refreshing to have a small dog owner realise it's not funny/cute for their dogs to go mad barking at other dogs!

If the dogs are uncomfortable/overwhelmed by other dogs are you sure daycare is the right move? Maybe a one to one session with a qualified behaviourist (check apdt.ie) would be better where you're thought how to bring the dogs attention to you/settle would be better and then maybe (if they'll let you) go along to a training class where you go off to one side working on focus and having your dogs ignore the others - I was in classes before were this happened. I'd highly recommend Emmaline from http://citizencanineireland.com - I had her out to help with my dog's anxiety and it was better than any class I'd ever been too because it was catered for US - not a group of other people and not a trainer with limited experience. Not sure if she covers your area though so you'd have to double check with her.

I used to use daycare and there was dogs going ballistic at both of my dogs in the carpark and in reception. It's actually one of the (many) reasons I stopped sending my pup there!

Also another thing - it's not uncommon for dogs to get on fine outside but not like having other dogs visit - had the dogs met each other beforehand?

Frigga_92

muddypaws wrote: »

It would depend how the daycare is run. Good ones do assessments, to see if it is suitable for your dog, as it doesn't suit every dog. TBH, the way your dogs are behaving, it may not be right for them, and could make them worse, it would be a form of flooding, which is an unethical way of training a dog. How many dogs would be at this day care centre, and could yours be kept seperate until they are kindly counter-conditioned to other dogs?

Hi, thanks for your reply.
I don't have much information on the ins and outs of the daycare place yet. I have e-mailed the person who runs it and am just awaiting her response as to whether I can call out to have a proper chat with her and a look around.

Not to compare dogs to children but should the set up be similar to a creche, i.e. a certain amount of people to dogs or is it that there should only be "x" number of dogs in any dog daycare place to ensure everybody gets along?

tk123 wrote: »

Firstly... THANK YOU!!! As an owner of 2 retrievers it's so refreshing to have a small dog owner realise it's not funny/cute for their dogs to go mad barking at other dogs!

If the dogs are uncomfortable/overwhelmed by other dogs are you sure daycare is the right move? Maybe a one to one session with a qualified behaviourist (check apdt.ie) would be better where you're thought how to bring the dogs attention to you/settle would be better and then maybe (if they'll let you) go along to a training class where you go off to one side working on focus and having your dogs ignore the others - I was in classes before were this happened. I'd highly recommend Emmaline from http://citizencanineireland.com - I had her out to help with my dog's anxiety and it was better than any class I'd ever been too because it was catered for US - not a group of other people and not a trainer with limited experience. Not sure if she covers your area though so you'd have to double check with her.

I used to use daycare and there was dogs going ballistic at both of my dogs in the carpark and in reception. It's actually one of the (many) reasons I stopped sending my pup there!

Also another thing - it's not uncommon for dogs to get on fine outside but not like having other dogs visit - had the dogs met each other beforehand?

Hi, thanks for your reply.
I've had a great dane and we have 2 german shepherds and I know how they feel about smaller dogs getting crazy in their faces so certainly no intention of just ignoring the problem or letting it get beyond repair.

So you think that maybe a behaviourist with some intensive sessions would be better for them?

I certainly don't want to send them somewhere where they'll just be running wild and not really addressing the actual problem.

They hadn't met the other dog before but for the 20 minutes he was standing outside with them in our yard they barked constantly in his face.

I see citizen canine ireland do classes in Carlow and Wexford only but then the website mentions classes in your home - I'm assuming that's not confined to Carlow and Wexford.

VonVix

I work in a doggie daycare and we have a few dogs who are like this, the first thing that comes to mind is two shih tzu's who react this way. What I have found is dogs who live together tend to do this, one bounces off the other in terms of behaviour.

Now, opinions may differ here, but I would be inclined to bring them to daycare separately. Have one puppy go in on a Monday and the other go in on a Tuesday and see how they get on as individuals, but it totally depends on you and how you feel about bringing them to a daycare.

Also, I'm going to assume you know about it, but have you heard of littermate syndrome?

Frigga_92

VonVix wrote: »

I work in a doggie daycare and we have a few dogs who are like this, the first thing that comes to mind is two shih tzu's who react this way. What I have found is dogs who live together tend to do this, one bounces off the other in terms of behaviour.

Now, opinions may differ here, but I would be inclined to bring them to daycare separately. Have one puppy go in on a Monday and the other go in on a Tuesday and see how they get on as individuals, but it totally depends on you and how you feel about bringing them to a daycare.

Also, I'm going to assume you know about it, but have you heard of littermate syndrome?

Hi, thanks for your reply.
Unfortunately I wouldn't be in a position to bring them separately. I do not drive a car and the daycare is located in a different town to where I work. The best I could do would be to bring them on a Saturday (the daycare place is closed on Sundays) and I wouldn't be able to bring them every Saturday so it might be a case that one could go on one Saturday and the other might not go for a month and I'm not sure how effective that would be.
Having read the comments here I read a bit more online and on the citizen canine website and I think I'm veering more towards a behaviourist and then maybe further down the line classes or daycare.

I have not heard of littermate syndrome but have googled it. I can't say I've seen these "symptoms" in the puppies but I'm no expert.
Ensuring they do things separately is certainly something I can start immediately.
Thanks.

VonVix

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

Hi, thanks for your reply.
Unfortunately I wouldn't be in a position to bring them separately. I do not drive a car and the daycare is located in a different town to where I work. The best I could do would be to bring them on a Saturday (the daycare place is closed on Sundays) and I wouldn't be able to bring them every Saturday so it might be a case that one could go on one Saturday and the other might not go for a month and I'm not sure how effective that would be.
Having read the comments here I read a bit more online and on the citizen canine website and I think I'm veering more towards a behaviourist and then maybe further down the line classes or daycare.

I have not heard of littermate syndrome but have googled it. I can't say I've seen these "symptoms" in the puppies but I'm no expert.
Ensuring they do things separately is certainly something I can start immediately.
Thanks.

The thing about having siblings is that they need to learn coping skills as individuals and to not look to the other for how to handle situations. When mine were 6 months old (I have sibling brothers) I didn't see any signs of it either, nor did I know about littermate syndrome and the potential implications there could be (it does vary, I would assume depending on their upbringing) I got one puppy at 8 weeks old and then I got his brother when he was 5 months old, the second pup instantly bonded to our first when he was introduced into the family, because they essentially spoke the same 'language' as each other. Our second dog has separation anxiety when he is away from our first, he has a far more anxious energy and looks to him for how to handle situations. He is nearly impossible to walk by himself because he pulls back trying to get home to our other dog. They also copy-cat each others behaviour.

Ideally puppies need to learn how to interact with dogs of different sizes/breeds and learn the body language of other dogs and how to initiate play properly, I have found some dogs bark repeatedly at another dog in an attempt to get attention from him/her, and some others bark because they want a dog to keep away! Often people think if they have their pup play with the neighbour's two different dogs that that's enough for them to figure it out, but there's a wide array of different types of dogs out there and that's something that dogs pick up more than the fact that it's just another dog.

No harm going down the behaviourist route at all! The sooner you address this the sooner you can do something about it, because the longer these things go on the more ingrained it can become. Though you do need to keep in mind that generally dachshunds are barkers! Much like the breed I own, they're big barkers if excited/stimulated.

Sorry if my post is kinda rambly, I've had a long day.

Frigga_92

VonVix wrote: »

The thing about having siblings is that they need to learn coping skills as individuals and to not look to the other for how to handle situations. When mine were 6 months old (I have sibling brothers) I didn't see any signs of it either, nor did I know about littermate syndrome and the potential implications there could be (it does vary, I would assume depending on their upbringing) I got one puppy at 8 weeks old and then I got his brother when he was 5 months old, the second pup instantly bonded to our first when he was introduced into the family, because they essentially spoke the same 'language' as each other. Our second dog has separation anxiety when he is away from our first, he has a far more anxious energy and looks to him for how to handle situations. He is nearly impossible to walk by himself because he pulls back trying to get home to our other dog. They also copy-cat each others behaviour.

Ideally puppies need to learn how to interact with dogs of different sizes/breeds and learn the body language of other dogs and how to initiate play properly, I have found some dogs bark repeatedly at another dog in an attempt to get attention from him/her, and some others bark because they want a dog to keep away! Often people think if they have their pup play with the neighbour's two different dogs that that's enough for them to figure it out, but there's a wide array of different types of dogs out there and that's something that dogs pick up more than the fact that it's just another dog.

No harm going down the behaviourist route at all! The sooner you address this the sooner you can do something about it, because the longer these things go on the more ingrained it can become. Though you do need to keep in mind that generally dachshunds are barkers! Much like the breed I own, they're big barkers if excited/stimulated.

Sorry if my post is kinda rambly, I've had a long day.

Hi, thanks for your reply.
Oh I definitely know dachshunds are barkers, like they bark when they play and would be quite noisy in squeals and grunts when they are playing. It's very different for me as my great dane had 2 barks, one for needing a wee and one if there was visitors and when he barked it was literally just to alert me, he might bark 2 or 3 times and then he'd stop. Same with the german shepherds although they definitely would be barkers compared to the great dane, they fancy themselves more as guard dogs than anything else.

They'll be 6 months old on 14th August and I would certainly like to have involved a behaviourist by that stage. Thankfully I'm just about to start a few days off work so I'm hoping during that time I can at least organise something. I have e-mailed Emmaline, the lady mentioned earlier in the thread, so I'm hoping to hear back from her and go from there. Fingers crossed

It's a strange one with them because we have always thought Loki was the leader. Thor does look to Loki for a lot of his cues but we think Thor is definitely cleverer, he has picked up toilet training quicker than Loki and he nearly has his sit perfected whereas Loki is lagging a bit behind in those ways.
However, after I read your earlier post I decided to take action straight away so I took Thor outside and my husband took Loki, we have a lot of land here so we just walked in opposite directions, and Thor loved it, didn't whine for Loki at all, just went exploring, went to the toilet, sniffed around, absolutely no bother, whereas Loki cried a bit, he got over it after a few minutes but then as soon as he saw Thor he was pulling to get near him.
It's funny how you think you have their personalities figured out and then they can act so differently in different situations.
I wonder what that says about Loki's development, he seems happy to dominate Thor but really Thor seems to be more independent. Again, I'm not expert, that's just my very simplistic view of them.

VonVix

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

Hi, thanks for your reply.
Oh I definitely know dachshunds are barkers, like they bark when they play and would be quite noisy in squeals and grunts when they are playing. It's very different for me as my great dane had 2 barks, one for needing a wee and one if there was visitors and when he barked it was literally just to alert me, he might bark 2 or 3 times and then he'd stop. Same with the german shepherds although they definitely would be barkers compared to the great dane, they fancy themselves more as guard dogs than anything else.

They'll be 6 months old on 14th August and I would certainly like to have involved a behaviourist by that stage. Thankfully I'm just about to start a few days off work so I'm hoping during that time I can at least organise something. I have e-mailed Emmaline, the lady mentioned earlier in the thread, so I'm hoping to hear back from her and go from there. Fingers crossed

It's a strange one with them because we have always thought Loki was the leader. Thor does look to Loki for a lot of his cues but we think Thor is definitely cleverer, he has picked up toilet training quicker than Loki and he nearly has his sit perfected whereas Loki is lagging a bit behind in those ways.
However, after I read your earlier post I decided to take action straight away so I took Thor outside and my husband took Loki, we have a lot of land here so we just walked in opposite directions, and Thor loved it, didn't whine for Loki at all, just went exploring, went to the toilet, sniffed around, absolutely no bother, whereas Loki cried a bit, he got over it after a few minutes but then as soon as he saw Thor he was pulling to get near him.
It's funny how you think you have their personalities figured out and then they can act so differently in different situations.
I wonder what that says about Loki's development, he seems happy to dominate Thor but really Thor seems to be more independent. Again, I'm not expert, that's just my very simplistic view of them.

What you said sounds a lot like mine there with the walks. Our first pup is the confident one, doesn't mind walks by himself and loves meeting people. Our second pup is insecure, doesn't like strangers and only enjoys walks if our first boy is there. Do incorporate separate activities for your two, especially for Loki as he sounds like he may be the slightly more insecure one. Jet sounds a LOT like Loki, he plays rough with our first boy and he was far less interested in training and doesn't progress as quickly as Cosmo does, he also loses interest far quicker. Perhaps there could be parallels with littermate syndrome there or perhaps it could be just a coinkydink.

Frigga_92

Had Emmaline out at the house today and we're so happy.
Emmaline was brilliant, really friendly, knowledgeable and no judgment in relation to the behaviour of the dogs.
She was brilliant with the puppies and made great progress with them in the time she was here. We've since been using what she taught us with great success already.
She also did great work with our german shepherds. Our female can be quite loud and aggressive with her barking when visitors arrive so Emmaline showed us how to deal with that. Our male isn't as aggressive but we wanted to learn how to get them both to stop on command once they have started.

Really happy with the session and would have no hesitation recommending Emmaline.

tk123

Yaay great news!! It's great motivation when the work starts paying off and you can see a difference too!

nancicreedon IAABC

Great to hear! Early intervention is key here as time's a-ticking!!

Did she give you advice on how to minimise littermate syndrome? The pups should most definitely be sleeping seperately, eating seperately and walking seperately for the next 6 months, trust me you'll be kicking yourself in the future if you don't do this.

I've worked with many many littermates for behaviour work and it's heartbreaking to see how sour things can turn as everyone has the very best of intentions, but two littermates spending 20+ hours a day together is massively detrimental to both of their personalities and compromises their welfare.

Regarding daycare, i've heard mixed reviews from Waterford but can most definitely highly recommend Lyndsey Power at Inn the Doghouse. She's been working and studying in the industry for years so you'd be in good hands with Lyndsey.

Please don't underestimate the impact littermate syndrome can have on your dogs. I've worked with nearly 100 pairs of siblings over the years, through daycare and behavior work, and I can count on one hand the amount of pairs of littermates that haven't been affected with littermate syndrome. In fact the dogs i'm working with now, one was due to be put to sleep because their fighting has become so severe (several trips to the vets for stitches, and they are small dogs) but thankfully their vet was clued on and pointed them in my direction as I'm approved for behaviour work through Allianz.

As these dogs are now adults, I will have a battle on my hands trying to undo the effects of LM Syndrome, so when I hear of people with young LM's, I become a bit of a pest drilling in how important alone time is