Railway Cup - Professional potential?

legendary.xix

An old chestnut that gets mentioned from time to time. Seems appropriate around now when you look at the effort put in by players and the huge crowds that are going to be flocking to Croke Park.

Regards any possibility of professionalism, does the Railway Cup have the potential to provide for a professional game? What we probably would be looking at is two teams in Dublin, the rest of Leinster and Ulster. A team each then from Connaught and Munster. For the professional game, you'd be looking at these 8 teams playing in a league both home and away. 14 league matches in total. On top of that then there would be the end of season play-offs between the top 4. Professionalism is a suggestion which gets shot down. It does not appear viable at inter-county level but possibly at an inter-provincial level it is possible?

bobmalooka

Is that not 6 teams? Won't go far with 6 teams in afraid

legendary.xix

bobmalooka wrote: »

Is that not 6 teams? Won't go far with 6 teams in afraid

8 teams:
Dublin North
Dublin South
Leinster North
Leinster South
Munster
Connaught
Ulster East
Ulster West

8 teams. Too pie in the sky to thrown New York and London into it.

zetecescort

is this going back to St. Patricks Day if the GAA plan on finishing the club championships in the calander year?

legendary.xix

zetecescort wrote: »

is this going back to St. Patricks Day if the GAA plan on finishing the club championships in the calander year?

It's not based on that. I've always been surprised at how the Railway Cup has slipped away. One might expect a competition with the best players from a number of counties would be of a higher level.
Secondly then if one just muses over any slim possibility of a professional game. It's not going to come from the inter county structure. 4 provinces on it's own is too few. Dublin, the rest of Leinster and Ulster would seem capable of 2 teams each. 8 teams would seem near or on the threshold for a professional game to be possibly viable.
Hard to see the game ever going the pro route. If it were to though, the above is kind of in line with the direction it would have to take.

Fr Tod Umptious

Ulster could not support two teams, but Munster could
Kerry alnoe could support one, then one more between the rest.

I can only see six teams in a pro setup, possibly seven.

1 Dublin (possibly 2)
1 other Leinster
1 Ulster
1 Connaught
1 Kerry
1 other Munster

Coillte_Bhoy

Utterly ridiculous proposal, i presume it would mean scrapping the existing inter county programme? You seriously expect supporters to transfer allegiance to makey uppy franchise type teams?? :pac:

harpsman

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Utterly ridiculous proposal, i presume it would mean scrapping the existing inter county programme? You seriously expect supporters to transfer allegiance to makey uppy franchise type teams?? :pac:

Its certainly not utterly ridiculous, even if you disagree with it. Has its pros and cons. I like the fact that you would have 8 fairly evenly matched teams and every player would have a chance of winning an all ireland if he was good enough which is not the case at the moment.

Mountainlad

After 127 years, hard to see anyone buying into this as it would mean scrapping inter county or devaluing it anyway. Dunno how they could co exist to be honest.

Fr Tod Umptious

harpsman wrote: »

Its certainly not utterly ridiculous, even if you disagree with it. Has its pros and cons. I like the fact that you would have 8 fairly evenly matched teams and every player would have a chance of winning an all ireland if he was good enough which is not the case at the moment.

If the game was to go professional then a football competition of 6 to 8 teams is about all the market could sustain.

What is utterly ridiculous is the theory that we could maintain the same setup as we currently have in a professional game.

bidiots

harpsman wrote: »

Its certainly not utterly ridiculous, even if you disagree with it. Has its pros and cons.

Nope, its utterly ridiculous.

any1butdublin3

What about separating the old kingdom of Meath?

Boom__Boom

Given the minuscule crowds the Railway Cup attracted last year, the notion of using similar regional areas as the basis of a professional game just strikes me as utterly bizarre.

That's before you look at the example of how the increased support for the professional provinces in rugby has decimated club rugby in Ireland.

The only reason professional rugby is anyway viable in Ireland is the advertising/money that flows into the game from abroad. If it were the case that rugby were solely played in Ireland there is no way there would be a professional game in Ireland - that's before you could near the fact that you have football and hurling in Ireland - if you think dualism is an issue now imagine the situation where you had professional football and amateur hurling.

Professional GAA is a non-runner, unless the game grows massively overseas.

harpsman

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

If the game was to go professional then a football competition of 6 to 8 teams is about all the market could sustain.

What is utterly ridiculous is the theory that we could maintain the same setup as we currently have in a professional game.

Agreed. Id be fairly sure Ulster could provide 2 teams tho-east and west.

aidan24326

legendary.xix wrote: »

It's not based on that. I've always been surprised at how the Railway Cup has slipped away. One might expect a competition with the best players from a number of counties would be of a higher level.
Secondly then if one just muses over any slim possibility of a professional game. It's not going to come from the inter county structure. 4 provinces on it's own is too few. Dublin, the rest of Leinster and Ulster would seem capable of 2 teams each. 8 teams would seem near or on the threshold for a professional game to be possibly viable.
Hard to see the game ever going the pro route. If it were to though, the above is kind of in line with the direction it would have to take.

The Railway Cup has had its day imo, and personally I think it's way better that the All-Ireland Club Championships have risen to a much higher profile. That's a competition that will always mean more to a player.

For whatever reason people are no longer buying into the idea of a Provincial Championship and if that's the case then so be it. Your idea of a regional professional structure is ludicrous by the way, it's not really workable and would anybody actually want it? i certainly don't.

harpsman

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Given the minuscule crowds the Railway Cup attracted last year, the notion of using similar regional areas as the basis of a professional game just strikes me as utterly bizarre.

That's before you look at the example of how the increased support for the professional provinces in rugby has decimated club rugby in Ireland.

The only reason professional rugby is anyway viable in Ireland is the advertising/money that flows into the game from abroad. If it were the case that rugby were solely played in Ireland there is no way there would be a professional game in Ireland - that's before you could near the fact that you have football and hurling in Ireland - if you think dualism is an issue now imagine the situation where you had professional football and amateur hurling.

Professional GAA is a non-runner, unless the game grows massively overseas.

Munster Leinster rugby matches used to get crowds of 400 in the amateur era so citing current railway cup crowds doesnt prove anything.

Also while the rugby teams have the international aspect to generate income it also means they have to pay their players more to prevent them going abroad. That wouldnt be an issue.

All in all i dont think its ever going to happen, nor would i want it to. Thats not to say that the idea is unworkable. I think this country probably could support 7 or 8 proffessional gaelic football teams. Youre right about the hurling though- that eould obviously pose a fairly insurmountable obstacle

Nidgeweasel

bidiots wrote: »

Nope, its utterly ridiculous.

Probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

StupidLikeAFox

Random thoughts on revamping the railway cup

First, pick 4 high profile managers. Then the 4 managers take it in turns to pick players, similar to the draft in American football. This leaves you with 4 teams which could play over a weekend in a showcase of football

Players are to be selected according to county:
Top 4 teams send 4 players
Next 8 teams send 3 players
Next 16 send 2 players
Next 8 send 1 player
(80 players in total, or 4 teams of 20)


Advantages:
- Showcase the sport with all the top players playing
- Theres a bit of gallery and build up in the selection of the teams
- The teams will end up more or less evenly matched
- No one county dominates in a team. Prob unlikely that more than two team mates will be playing together
- The players from weaker counties will get to play on an even footing with players from stronger counties
- Could bring a bit of prestige back to the competition, as in it would be an honour to play in/be selected for the competition

legendary.xix

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Ulster could not support two teams, but Munster could
Kerry alnoe could support one, then one more between the rest.

I can only see six teams in a pro setup, possibly seven.

1 Dublin (possibly 2)
1 other Leinster
1 Ulster
1 Connaught
1 Kerry
1 other Munster

I think they 8 regions listed are even enough in terms of population and footballing strength.

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Utterly ridiculous proposal, i presume it would mean scrapping the existing inter county programme? You seriously expect supporters to transfer allegiance to makey uppy franchise type teams?? :pac:

I was fully expecting the mention of it to get shot dow. I do not expect supporters to transfer allegiance.

The Railway Cup is ran either at the back end of the year or early on during the league. It hasn't a foundation at the moment to gain any momentum.

Football changes. Clubs used to represent counties. It then became a county representative competition. The Railway Cup historically had huge crowds. The club championships have come along. Recently there has been the growth and addition of the Intermediate and Junior provincial and All-Ireland championships.

I've only stated what would be required for professionalism to be possibly. I'd like to see the GAA work on revamping the Railway Cup and making it more relevant. If it's not possible, fair enough but their are some options which can be tried to give in relevance.

Mountainlad wrote: »

After 127 years, hard to see anyone buying into this as it would mean scrapping inter county or devaluing it anyway. Dunno how they could co exist to be honest.

I have not suggested scrapping inter-county championships. If an inter-provincial form of competition gained support and momentum, it would not have to mean the ending of the inter-county championships. It is a fair point though, how could the co-exist. Could professional players play for their respective counties along with the better club players from within the counties? All valid points. Not going to argue.

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Given the minuscule crowds the Railway Cup attracted last year, the notion of using similar regional areas as the basis of a professional game just strikes me as utterly bizarre.

That's before you look at the example of how the increased support for the professional provinces in rugby has decimated club rugby in Ireland.

The only reason professional rugby is anyway viable in Ireland is the advertising/money that flows into the game from abroad. If it were the case that rugby were solely played in Ireland there is no way there would be a professional game in Ireland - that's before you could near the fact that you have football and hurling in Ireland - if you think dualism is an issue now imagine the situation where you had professional football and amateur hurling.

Professional GAA is a non-runner, unless the game grows massively overseas.

That's fair enough if it strikes you as bizarre. I have nowhere suggested an overnight success. For any remote possibility of something like that from where we are now, it'll be years upon years of slow change.

A competition that might take about 16 weeks maximum does not take up the entire year.

The current Railway Cup, there's an argument for that to be played on a more regular basis over the year. Have the 4 teams in a round robin, alternating home tie every year. Play the 3 round robin games once a month over the months that players are at their best and it's more relevant to the chamionship calendar.

As someone has correctly pointed out, without the overseas competition of other sports, the costs would not be as high.

aidan24326 wrote: »

The Railway Cup has had its day imo, and personally I think it's way better that the All-Ireland Club Championships have risen to a much higher profile. That's a competition that will always mean more to a player.

For whatever reason people are no longer buying into the idea of a Provincial Championship and if that's the case then so be it. Your idea of a regional professional structure is ludicrous by the way, it's not really workable and would anybody actually want it? i certainly don't.

It's great the club championships have a high profile but it's no reason not to have a competitive inter-provincial scene.

I set about to discuss what stucture would need to be in place for the possibility of professionalism. There's been talks in hurling of amalgamated teams. It's remote, unlikely to happen but look a platform could be set for the Railway Cup to gain in importance. There's also the potential platform for sponsorship to way in behind such a project.

With the GPA now linked with the GAA though, the remoteness of the idea is even more remote to be honest. A lot players would possibly lose out if it went down a narrower more elite route first of all.

Deskjockey

Could you imagine anyone ever shouting "Mon ta fúck Ulster East" !!







Me neither.

Nidgeweasel

Deskjockey wrote: »

Could you imagine anyone ever shouting "Mon ta fúck Ulster East" !!







Me neither.

Orange sash jerseys.

legendary.xix

Deskjockey wrote: »

Could you imagine anyone ever shouting "Mon ta fúck Ulster East" !!
Me neither.

Well look, when saying Ireland can possibly support 8 professional teams, I had to list the regions which can support a team.

If we take the current Railway Cup of 4 provinces. Lets say for arguments sake a sponsor, or a number of sponsors, got behind the competition and were willing to offer players match fees of €X,000 per game. I think most of the players will be enticed to play in the series. A round robin of home and away games can offer the most in maximising the exposure of the competition. A game a month, 6 for each team, can be played from March to August. This type of series is the acid test for anything bigger. If the series failed to grasp the imagination of the public it will be a failure obviously and doomed. The GAA media will most likely get behind the competition. It should have a high profile if the best players are eagerly involved and they had an interest in the series being successful.

From such a scenario of 4 teams over 6 weekends. If a failure - nothing lost. If it proved successful, it could spark interest in possibly doubling the number of teams. More players will start to benefit from receiving match fees so possibly will be inclined to row in behind the series. Looking for areas to bring in more teams, well Dublin, the rest of Leinster and Ulster appear to be the areas in such a circumstance that will be able to sustain and support 2 teams.

I don't see the game going professional. The 4 team series over 6 weekends isn't too unrealistic for starters though. The success and failure of which will be the platform or not for something else.

Vision of Disorder

legendary.xix wrote: »

Regards any possibility of professionalism, does the Railway Cup have the potential to provide for a professional game? What we probably would be looking at is two teams in Dublin, the rest of Leinster and Ulster. A team each then from Connaught and Munster. For the professional game, you'd be looking at these 8 teams playing in a league both home and away. 14 league matches in total. On top of that then there would be the end of season play-offs between the top 4. Professionalism is a suggestion which gets shot down. It does not appear viable at inter-county level but possibly at an inter-provincial level it is possible?

Have you given up your attempts to save the airtricity league then? :-)

newg300

Re the Railway Cup:

The recent Leinster v Munster hurling charity game in Waterford was a great success, from what I can gather. Compare the crowds and media profile of that to a standard RC game between the two. Amazing what attaching a good cause, and adding the words "All Star Challenge" can do. (I know this had Ken's name attached, and was in Waterford so was at an advantage)

That is the approach I' be taking with the RC and see if it can create a niche charity weekend for the GAA. Look at what Today FM did with Shave or Dye. If every club in the country got behind one charity for a few weeks in the spring, culminating in an 'All Star Weekend' of games, then you might see better crowds.

maniac2003

Jesus Christ I'm sweating here thinking about what the ticket pricing structure would be for this!

legendary.xix

Vision of Disorder wrote: »

Have you given up your attempts to save the airtricity league then? :-)

The premier league isn't too bad this season. It's a shame more parts of the country aren't brought in to the structure some where but that a different sport and discussion.

maniac2003 wrote: »

Jesus Christ I'm sweating here thinking about what the ticket pricing structure would be for this!

Ah yeah, you're gas! Ah look it, a provincial round robin of the 4 at least, home and away isn't too unrealistic. It's a path the game would have to take if a professional route was to be an option at some stage.

theoneeyedman

I wouldn't dismiss the OP entirely. I've posted before about how i see gaelic football going, based on history of most sports including soccer, rugby,cricket etc. Eventually someone will decide to use gaa to sell TV subscriptions, either satellite, online or whatever is in vogue at the time. They will dictate the terms of how many franchises will participate, not us fans. Here will probably support 10 or so teams on a pro or semi pro basis.
Think
Dublin
Cork,
Kerry,
Galway,
Belfast,
Leins ter,
Ulster,
North West,
Maybe 1 more...

robbiezero

theoneeyedman wrote: »

I wouldn't dismiss the OP entirely. I've posted before about how i see gaelic football going, based on history of most sports including soccer, rugby,cricket etc. Eventually someone will decide to use gaa to sell TV subscriptions, either satellite, online or whatever is in vogue at the time. They will dictate the terms of how many franchises will participate, not us fans. Here will probably support 10 or so teams on a pro or semi pro basis.
Think
Dublin
Cork,
Kerry,
Galway,
Belfast,
Leins ter,
Ulster,
North West,
Maybe 1 more...

Won't sell much TV subscriptions if no one has any interest in watching it.

Coillte_Bhoy

Now that the op has elaborated on his idea i see where he is coming from. However i would have little or no interest in such a competiton, sure i'd watch it on TV but would have zero interest in paying to go and watch them and would have little or no enthusiasm for supporting a Connacht team. you cant just manufacture a competition's importance when for the players the AI's are everything.

thelad95

The only way the GAA could go professional is if franchises were created with a transfer system for players, similar to the AFL. So basically, you could have the Dublin blue-birds, the Wexford strawberries, the Carlow-Laois tigers etc. The current inter-county model just wouldn't be viable.

theoneeyedman

thelad95 wrote: »

The only way the GAA could go professional is if franchises were created with a transfer system for players, similar to the AFL. So basically, you could have the Dublin blue-birds, the Wexford strawberries, the Carlow-Laois tigers etc. The current inter-county model just wouldn't be viable.

Exactly my Belief! Somewhere there is an old post about this, and I've alluded to it here earlier. History of other sports tells us that money will dictate b a break away franchise model, with probably 8 to 10 teams. Having no interest in it won't really be an option as either immediately or eventually the top players will follow the money and there will be nothing else. The failure of GAA to revamp the championship with increasingly more 1 sided and relatively meaningless games in the provinces play into their hands.