Cork v Tipperary AI Semi Final

citykat

Amprodude wrote: »

Walsh was a disgrace today

I think that kind of comment is uncalled for. This is a man who has given service to Cork in hurling and football this year.

Amprodude

citykat wrote: »

I think that kind of comment is uncalled for. This is a man who has given service to Cork in hurling and football this year.

Yeah he should concentrate on one.

Rightwing

citykat wrote: »

I think that kind of comment is uncalled for. This is a man who has given service to Cork in hurling and football this year.

Absolutely.

These guys are trying their utmost for their county. Tipp have simply more class than Cork. They've proven themselves at underage, 4th AI in 6 years. Cork have had a fantastic season by their standards.

MisterAnarchy

Rightwing wrote: »

In a way you are right. That strategy wouldn't work against an intelligent team. Cork were like dummies, so it worked a treat. That was Cusack's point. Gleeson executed it very well against hopeless opposition.

Cork have a bad habit of not being alert from puck outs ,but yesterday was unforgivable .

As good as Tipp's puckouts were Cork's were terrible.
Kept on pumping long ball into a half forward line that are absolutely useless in the air ,they seem to have their hands covered in butter .
Couldn't catch any ball ,were bunching ,and played right into the more physical teams hands.

Clare cleaned them out in the half forward line twice last year and the same thing happened yesterday .
Why the puckouts weren't varied is baffling and even more baffling is why Pa Cronin was on the pitch ,JBM seemed helpless on the sideline for the match .

Rightwing

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Cork have a bad habit of not being alert from puck outs ,but yesterday was unforgivable .

As good as Tipp's puckouts were Cork's were terrible.
Kept on pumping long ball into a half forward line that are absolutely useless in the air ,they seem to have their hands covered in butter .
Couldn't catch any ball ,were bunching ,and played right into the more physical teams hands.

Clare cleaned them out in the half forward line twice last year and the same thing happened yesterday .
Why the puckouts weren't varied is baffling and even more baffling is why Pa Cronin was on the pitch ,JBM seemed helpless on the sideline for the match .

Have to agree, and like most of hurling people i've great time for JBM. But sadly he looked completely out of his depth yesterday.

citykat

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

JBM seemed helpless on the sideline for the match

Any manager will look helpless when his team is getting cleaned out of it. Bar togging out himself, there's not much he can do in that situation.

skippymac6

A massive factor too was Cork's woeful shooting. Yes Tipp got their tactics spot on but if Cork take a few of those chances in the first half especially and I think it would be a different game. Yes the pressure exerted by Tipp on the Cork forwards probably made them rush their shots and contrived for them to miss a few but still some of the point taking (which is usually a strength for Cork) was awful.

Now I'm in no way saying that iff Cork take say 5 of their first half wides and get points that they go on to win the game, but the fact that their confidence seemed shot after so many wides certainly had a factor in their poor second half performance and allowed Tipp to go for the jugular which they did brilliantly.

Amprodude

Rightwing wrote: »

Absolutely.

These guys are trying their utmost for their county. Tipp have simply more class than Cork. They've proven themselves at underage, 4th AI in 6 years. Cork have had a fantastic season by their standards.

Ah spare me the gobbly goo. They didnt try at all yesterday.They were 30secs away from winning AI last year. How was this year a good season Munster final aside?

With your theory Limerick have more class than Tipp. Cork have more class than Limerick. Tipp more class than Cork. KK more class than Limerick. Figure that one out.

Rightwing

Amprodude wrote: »

Ah spare me the gobbly goo. They didnt try at all yesterday.They were 30secs away from winning AI last year. How was this year a good season Munster final aside?

With your theory Limerick have more class than Tipp. Cork have more class than Limerick. Tipp more class than Cork. KK more class than Limerick. Figure that one out.

The whole country knows last year was the year for the likes of LK/dub/cork/clare to win it. Clare did it. Fair play to them

There are 2 ways to analyse a game, make believe/wish lists and facts/statistics. I tend to discount the former and concentrate on facts. The facts are Cork won an honour for the first time in 8 seasons and won promotion. That's why it was a great seaon for them.

My theory is the best 2 teams in the country are in the final. I've said this from the outset. If you want to discuss wish lists and make believe analysis, I won't be engaging in that.

Grats

Many were surprised at Cork reaching the Final last year from the point of view as to where were the players coming from. No minor title since 2001, no under 21 since 1998, no sign of schools/colleges success or club. It was suggested that the Fitzgibbon was the breeding ground for Cork hurling. Clearly there is a vast difference between Fitzgibbon hurling and county hurling. JBM is to be commended for getting as much as he did from an inferior group of players. Had Tipp got over Kilkenny last year they would have won the All Ireland. Clare took advantage of that, Cork weren't capable.

The Cork footballers got a lot of bad press from within their county this year and in recent years. In their recent quarter final game against Mayo they put up a brave fight to get within a point of Mayo. On the day there was no more than 300 Cork supporters. Yesterday their support was over 40 thousand. They clearly are backing the wrong horse down Leeside for some reason or other. While the supply of decent hurlers has dried up the same can't be said for the footballers who have had their successes in various grades over the years. They surely deserve more respect from their own.

Practically every other county has introduced development squads in the last ten years, Cork are playing catch up. The rest of the hurling world were aware of this long ago. Apparently Cork themselves have only realised this yesterday!

Rightwing

Grats wrote: »

Many were surprised at Cork reaching the Final last year from the point of view as to where were the players coming from. No minor title since 2001, no under 21 since 1998, no sign of schools/colleges success or club. It was suggested that the Fitzgibbon was the breeding ground for Cork hurling. Clearly there is a vast difference between Fitzgibbon hurling and county hurling. JBM is to be commended for getting as much as he did from an inferior group of players. Had Tipp got over Kilkenny last year they would have won the All Ireland. Clare took advantage of that, Cork weren't capable.

The Cork footballers got a lot of bad press from within their county this year and in recent years. In their recent quarter final game against Mayo they put up a brave fight to get within a point of Mayo. On the day there was no more than 300 Cork supporters. Yesterday their support was over 40 thousand. They clearly are backing the wrong horse down Leeside for some reason or other. While the supply of decent hurlers has dried up the same can't be said for the footballers who have had their successes in various grades over the years. They surely deserve more respect from their own.

Practically every other county has introduced development squads in the last ten years, Cork are playing catch up. The rest of the hurling world were aware of this long ago. Apparently Cork themselves have only realised this yesterday!

Lof of truth in that, but I'd disagree with that. Like the other 4 counties in Munster, football will never attract big support.

mickmackey1

Grats wrote: »

Many were surprised at Cork reaching the Final last year from the point of view as to where were the players coming from. No minor title since 2001, no under 21 since 1998

Still, Kerry have no minor football since '94 and one U21 since '98, doesn't seem to have held them back.

Amprodude

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Still, Kerry have no minor football since '94 and one U21 since '98, doesn't seem to have held them back.

Exactly. Kerry have good management and nearly always get it right on the sideline. They almost beat Dublin last year with the limited panel they were meant to have.

Rightwing

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Still, Kerry have no minor football since '94 and one U21 since '98, doesn't seem to have held them back.

That's quite an interesting stat. I do get the impression that they could be in for a lean period now though.

Amprodude

Rightwing wrote: »

That's quite an interesting stat. I do get the impression that they could be in for a lean period now though.

Kerry are Kerry and will always win AIs at Senior level. Never underestimate them. They have a great chance this year.

Rightwing

Amprodude wrote: »

Kerry are Kerry and will always win AIs at Senior level. Never underestimate them. They have a great chance this year.

Mayo are favs to beat them, that tells you far they've fallen.

Dublin would wipe the floor with them imo, but I'm not a big follower of football.

dzer2

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Still, Kerry have no minor football since '94 and one U21 since '98, doesn't seem to have held them back.

As it is said different ball game you I can see Dublin dominating that code for a few yrs. You need to take up hurling at a young age and need to practice a lot just to master the basic skills.

Amprodude

dzer2 wrote: »

As it is said different ball game you I can see Dublin dominating that code for a few yrs. You need to take up hurling at a young age and need to practice a lot just to master the basic skills.

Same with football. You need to be at it at a young age. Kicking left and right leg equally. Every top class forward can kick with both legs without choosing one over the other.

Fireball07

Mountainlad wrote: »

The ball to Callanan wasn't aimless though. They fancied his height against O'Neill and they were right too. But Cork were setup to protect that, even though in the end it meant they lost what their drive that they needed badly from midfield.


I agree on Corbett and Callanan. I'd add Bergin as well. That's three out of 15, the rest nearly all had very good games. I think that's very impressive personally. As anyone would say, room for improvement and a great win and performance. What more could you ask for?


I also think you need to consider horse for courses. Cork were well setup to defend today and did so very well for practically the whole game. The fact they kept it to 2-17 in the circumstances was good going. Tipp's high ball tactic wasn't as fruitful as it would have been because of it. Kilkenny will go man for man and you can be certain that they won't lampoon balls down on top of JJ. They aren't fools.

Paudie Maher won't be center back. Michael Fennelly is a great player and important for KK, Colin Fennelly very capable. I know the conditions weren't geared for forward lines, but outside of those two I wasn't that impressed. Paudie Walsh is a good hurler so would forgive him that, but TJ Reid hasn't been that impressive for two games (admittedly Hickey is class). Larkin has lost the pace he had and I think it' a significant reason why Kilkenny don't goal as often, even if he has two this year.


Richie Power was the difference the last day and he will start and add more the next day I'd imagine, but it weakens the options from the bench. Kelly has little in my view, and Shefflin is past it. Compare it to 3 years ago, Brennan and Shefflin were superb and Richie Hogan was inside in the corner and scored that goal.

Hogan is class and the key to Kilkenny with them playing a passing game at the moment. The tactical game will be very interesting for this. I'll reserve judgement on a verdict for the minute, I just think Tipp to be fair didn't get much credit before today and if they had lost today fair enough. From my point of view, they couldn't really have been much more impressive in many areas and my response was more aimed at a lot of comments earlier seeing the final as a foregone conclusion.

In fairness to the Kilkenny fans, they seem to be expecting a tight game which I think it should be.

Maybe aimless is the wrong word, but it wasn't very good ball. I'd like to see some stats or watch it back again... but the ball was just being lumped straight down on top of Callanan in the first half, and he wasn't winning most of it.

Cork were only 2 points down at half-time despite not turning up at all, Tipp weren't making great use of their dominance in their half-back line. I just think Tipp should have switched it up a bit more, Cork were set up to defend too, but I definitely think they overdid the direct ball thing. Obviously didn't matter in the end.


KK's forwards haven't all been in great form this year... Padraig Walsh is a very handy player, but is more of a midfielder in my view. He'll score a couple of points but they need TJ Reid & Colin Fennelly to perform... I do think Richie Power should start just to give them another option. Mark Kelly tries hard, but he doesn't strike fear into defences and Limerick coped with him easily enough. John Power, Walter Walsh, and one or two others are in the same category atm... not the players they had of old.

Fireball07

I do think that there is a slight overreaction in some quarters... I still think this group of Cork players are good enough to win an All-Ireland if things went right for them. They have definitely strengthened from last year... the Tipp performance aside, they have looked a lot more assured, a lot more confident and just better all-round this year.

The additions of Ellis, Walsh, Cooper & Cadogan have definitely strengthed the team; McLoughlin is good at wing-back, Kearney & Walsh lorded most games at midfield; the forwards were free-scoring in most games.

They do have a few weaknesses for sure, but so do every team. Full-back is a big issue still.... I think Paudie O'Sullivan is miles better than Pa Cronin, I think Conor O'Sullivan was unlucky to lose his place. They do have some good young palyers coming through, maybe not as many as they expect/need.


I think it was a management failure more than anything else... when a team as a whole under-performs all on the one day... when the tactics don't work, and nothing is done to change them... that is on the management.

KK in 2012 were blown away by Galway, but learned their lesson, strengthened, regrouped and came back to win the All-Ireland. Cork's flop came in a knockout game and you don't get a 2nd chance.



There are some evident flaws in the team which probably should have been addressed before but they still have plenty of good players and on their day are as good as anyone imo. But you need to have a management team on form as well as players, and that is where they really failed. Not saying JBM should go, and if they're not going to get a better replacement, then he shouldn't, but he has to learn from this.

Hotfail.com

Fireball07 wrote: »

I do think that there is a slight overreaction in some quarters... I still think this group of Cork players are good enough to win an All-Ireland if things went right for them. They have definitely strengthened from last year... the Tipp performance aside, they have looked a lot more assured, a lot more confident and just better all-round this year.

The additions of Ellis, Walsh, Cooper & Cadogan have definitely strengthed the team; McLoughlin is good at wing-back, Kearney & Walsh lorded most games at midfield; the forwards were free-scoring in most games.

They do have a few weaknesses for sure, but so do every team. Full-back is a big issue still.... I think Paudie O'Sullivan is miles better than Pa Cronin, I think Conor O'Sullivan was unlucky to lose his place. They do have some good young palyers coming through, maybe not as many as they expect/need.


I think it was a management failure more than anything else... when a team as a whole under-performs all on the one day... when the tactics don't work, and nothing is done to change them... that is on the management.

KK in 2012 were blown away by Galway, but learned their lesson, strengthened, regrouped and came back to win the All-Ireland. Cork's flop came in a knockout game and you don't get a 2nd chance.



There are some evident flaws in the team which probably should have been addressed before but they still have plenty of good players and on their day are as good as anyone imo. But you need to have a management team on form as well as players, and that is where they really failed. Not saying JBM should go, and if they're not going to get a better replacement, then he shouldn't, but he has to learn from this.

I agree with everything you've posted. Cannot for the life of me understand the hysteria, it was one shocking performance over 3 years and now suddenly we're in full-on panic mode. Yesterday was a disaster, better to just forget about it and move on.

Grats

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Still, Kerry have no minor football since '94 and one U21 since '98, doesn't seem to have held them back.

Kerry have been contesting All Ireland Finals at all levels - schools, club, minor, under 21. Cork footballers have done the same BUT Cork HURLERS have not.

robbiezero

Rightwing wrote: »

Mayo are favs to beat them, that tells you far they've fallen.

Dublin would wipe the floor with them imo, but I'm not a big follower of football.

For a team in transition and rebuilding, they have not fallen that far. 2nd best team in the country last year and could well be again this year. I agree Dublin would/will beat them comfortably if they meet them, but I don't anyone will get near Dublin this year.

robbiezero

Hotfail.com wrote: »

I agree with everything you've posted. Cannot for the life of me understand the hysteria, it was one shocking performance over 3 years and now suddenly we're in full-on panic mode. Yesterday was a disaster, better to just forget about it and move on.

There probably is an over-reaction to the performance yesterday, but we have not seen a good Cork side since 2006. I thought this team with the additional of a few players from last year might well put them in a position to win the All-Ireland, but it is hard one coming in the next 5 years after Sunday. It looks like the dual players will have to make a call also. After a bright start to the year Aidan Walsh has been a shadow of himself in both codes.

The performance of the Cork u21 team this must also add to the worry for Cork fans. Abysmal doesn't do justice to how bad they were.