How come this country has never had a left-wing or liberal sort of government.

SpaceTime

For the past 30+ years Ireland's actually largely been centre/centre left on most socioeconomic issues.
There's very big upset about anything to do with cutting public spending for example and we've maintained a pretty extensive social security net during fairly serious austerity cuts.

Ireland's right wing stuff was historically social conservatism around a bunch of Catholic Church driven issues - notably anything to do with reproduction and sex.

That's changed dramatically with the only unusually right wing position remaining being abortion.

Public opinion here doesn't seem very right wing at all on most issues these days.

DazMarz

Since the foundation of the Irish State, two parties have always been a dominant figure in the politics of this country. One of the two of them has ALWAYS been in power (in some way, shape or form). Those two parties are, of course, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. Fianna Fáil can actually boast an electoral record of incredible success amongst modern parties in modern democracies; no other party has such an incredible record of election victories and length of time in power as Fianna Fáil; from the formation of the first Fianna Fáil government on 9 March, 1932, until the General Election in 2011, the party was in power for 61 of the 79 years (with Fine Gael, or some variation thereof, taking up the remaining years).

Both of them, despite protestations to the contrary, are centre to centre-right parties. Fine Gael arguably being slightly more to the right than Fianna Fáil, but both of them stemmed from very similar ideologies. The key difference between them at their inceptions was the two sides of the civil war; the pro-Treaty (Fine Gael) side, and the anti-Treaty (Fianna Fáil) side.

Other than that, their roots are deeply entwined with the Irish, Catholic, rural outlook; ie. conservative. Obviously, as times have moved on, so have the parties, but they would still be seen as the "traditional" parties out amongst a lot of Irish people.

This leads to an interesting phenomenon that has not been seen in the two other major democracies in the world (the UK and the USA). In the UK and the USA, there has always been a traditional right/left divide. The Labour Party and the Lib Dems against the Tories. The Democrats against the Republicans. Even in France, you have the UPM (Union Pour Un Mouvement Populaire) on the right, and the PS (Parti Socialiste) on the left. And so on. Almost every modern democracy in the world has had a right/left divide in its politics and subsequent governments.

However, in Ireland, the choice has nearly always been between two centre-right parties. These two parties will then almost assuredly go into coalition with a left-ish leaning party, or on one occasion into power with another centre-right party. This has led to a situation where there is no true left/right divide in Ireland. More like a centre-right/centre-right/centre-left/left divide.

Now that day may be coming to an end, with a very extreme likelihood of a Fine Gael/Fianna Fáil majority coalition following the next election. If that happens (and if FF/FF drag what it left of the Labour Party with them into government), then Sinn Féin will emerge from the ashes as the true left opposition to the centre-right government. If this scenario unfolds, then Ireland will finally have a true left/right divide.

Now, there are still vast swaths of Irish people who will not vote Sinn Féin. There is a huge protest vote out there also, that could very easily evaporate if the economy picks up at all.

In order for Sinn Féin to eventually have any chance of appealing to more voters and in order to eventually force their way into power, they will have to shed a lot of the baggage they have (shedding the likes of Adams, McGuinness, Ferris, Ellis, etc.), they will have to soften their radical approach slightly and they will need to push the new, untainted members of the party to the forefront (McDonald, Carthy, Doherty, O'Brien, Brady, etc.) and make themselves appealing to a vaster section of society. They will need to shift to a position of more centre-left to do this, adopt stances similar to what the core ethos of the Labour Party would have been, ditch the Republican nonsense and realise that Ireland is still, despite it all, still a fairly conservative country.

I think that Ireland would benefit greatly from a true left/right divide; instead of a few years of Fianna Fáil, a recession, Fine Gael cleaning up, a few more years of Fianna Fáil, a recession.... wash, rinse, repeat.

Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil are essentially the same thing ("two cheeks of the same arse" seems to be a phrase gaining a lot of usage lately), and both are centre to centre-right parties. Ideologically almost identical, barring some minor differences. Sinn Féin represent a proper, left-leaning opposition to them.

Marhay70

Rightwing wrote: »

FF are a left wing party. They are the real labour party of Ireland.

Ever wonder why we have a most generous welfare system? Why OAPs here are amongst the most well-off in the world? Why we have a big and very well paid public sector?

Ask FF.

That's not because FF are socialists but because they are populists and don't generalise, some of our OAPs may be well off but it is certainly not the norm.

Rightwing

Marhay70 wrote: »

That's not because FF are socialists but because they are populists and don't generalise, some of our OAPs may be well off but it is certainly not the norm.

Populism and left wing aren't mutually exclusive. The complete opposite in fact.

FF look to the big votes, the unemployed, the OAPs, the Public Sector.

The OAPs are extremely well looked after in this country. Now, I know FF could be more popular by giving the OAPs €500 a week. But even they though this is unrealistic.

A right wing party doesn't look at these areas. They correctly see them as a waste of resources.

SpaceTime

Trying to describe Irish politics in left vs right terms doesn't make sense.

You've the history above and you've also got a highly unusual voting system that allows voters to pick multiple candidates from totally different political ideologies.

I think the PR-STV voting system is finally being used correctly by voters. That's why you're seeing a growing diversity in the Dail.

I also think that Ireland's the polar opposite to an authoritarian regime or even most democracies. The political system is kept in a state of constant pressure to impress constituents because every TD is in a multi-seat constituency. If TD #1 doesn't react to constituents' requests, TD #2… 3…4 etc will. So they're always in competition with their constituency colleagues.

That's created a system where the government and even opposition TDs tend to follow the public opinion rather than lead it. If you are too innovative or don't focus enough on minor constituency issues, you'll be out of a job.

So we've ended up with TDs who are populist, fear doing anything too controversial and tend to focus way too much on local issues.

The result: the general public's attitudes are often far ahead of the political classes and the civil servants tend to run most things on autopilot without much political input or oversight.

We've developed a political culture that's largely spineless and lacking any particular philosophies other than getting and keeping your seat through populism and clietelism.

It's in many ways that's HIGHLY democratic but, it's quite dysfunctional too.

Also bear in mind that it's all about finding a consensus too. You aren't ever going to see single party government here again and a huge % of our legislative processes occur in cross-party committees these days too.

The main change needed is something to focus TDs on national issues. A % elected from broader national or regional constituencies night help a lot.

DarkyHughes

Well if socialism at it's core has workers control over production well then Ireland is not a socialist country.

steddyeddy

smcgiff wrote: »

I'll ask again, what more do you want to make Ireland more socialist?

So far there's a lot of heat but no light in this discussion.

Considering the amount of children who die in care and the disparity in education between students from families with different incomes I think we could do a lot more.

The Corinthian

Rightwing wrote: »

It probably boils down to the definition of socialism.

Joe Bloggs doesn't really give a crap how you define socialism - typically the only people who do are 18 - 30 year old students who have a desperate need to slap a label on everything as they go off to have a demo to change the World.

The reason why Ireland has never had a socialist government is because that sort of system never had enough support to form one. Nothing more complicated than that.

You could blame the Church, and no doubt it had an influence, but that would be simplistic. The collapse of the Soviet Union also had an effect as it effectively was seen to discredit left wing ideology as a failure. The Celtic Tiger also shaped our mindset - there we were rewarded for being less socialist, not more. There are probably numerous other reasons, but ultimately it wasn't popular enough.

In that regard, we're not that different to the rest of Europe; when you come down to it, most European socialist parties weren't exactly much more 'socialist' in their policies than FF, when they entered government - at least those policies that turned out not to be a disaster and had to be quickly dropped (Labour's three day week, anyone?). If you look at Ireland's policies with regard to state economic control, taxation and social support up until the Celtic Tiger, were were probably far 'socialist' than most.

Sometimes the answer to such questions is the simplest one. There's no grand conspiracy. It just never had the support of the people. Deal with it.

Rightwing

The Corinthian wrote: »

Joe Bloggs doesn't really give a crap how you define socialism - typically the only people who do are 18 - 30 year old students who have a desperate need to slap a label on everything as they go off to have a demo to change the World.

The reason why Ireland has never had a socialist government is because that sort of system never had enough support to form one. Nothing more complicated than that.

You could blame the Church, and no doubt it had an influence, but that would be simplistic. The collapse of the Soviet Union also had an effect as it effectively was seen to discredit left wing ideology as a failure. The Celtic Tiger also shaped our mindset - there we were rewarded for being less socialist, not more. There are probably numerous other reasons, but ultimately it wasn't popular enough.

In that regard, we're not that different to the rest of Europe; when you come down to it, most European socialist parties weren't exactly much more 'socialist' in their policies than FF, when they entered government - at least those policies that turned out not to be a disaster and had to be quickly dropped (Labour's three day week, anyone?). If you look at Ireland's policies with regard to state economic control, taxation and social support up until the Celtic Tiger, were were probably far 'socialist' than most.

Sometimes the answer to such questions is the simplest one. There's no grand conspiracy. It just never had the support of the people. Deal with it.

The average Joe Bloggs probably doesn't even know what socialism is.

I do agree with point about your Europe, hence they are all maxed out on debt.

DarkyHughes

Rightwing wrote: »

The average Joe Bloggs probably doesn't even know what socialism is.

I do agree with point about your Europe, hence they are all maxed out on debt.

Exactly know country has ever had socialism. Just because you call a country socialist doesn't make it so. The Soviet Union certainly was not.

The Corinthian

DarkyHughes wrote: »

The Soviet Union certainly was not.

Yeah. I remember when that argument started appearing... around late 1991.

DarkyHughes

The Corinthian wrote: »

Yeah. I remember when that argument started appearing... around late 1991.

It wasn't tho. Did workers have control over the means of their production? Workers were basically slaves like in slave States working for enough to keep them barely alive.

It might have worked in Vietnam if the US hadn't destroyed the countries whole infrastructure & then hit it with brutal sanctions as if they were the victims.

The Corinthian

DarkyHughes wrote: »

It wasn't tho. Did workers have control over the means of their production? Workers were basically slaves like in slave States working for enough to keep them barely alive.

Not too worried what it was, I just noticed how the same people who were using this argument were supporting the USSR a few years previously.

It might have worked in Vietnam if the US hadn't destroyed the countries whole infrastructure & then hit it with brutal sanctions as if they were the victims.

Well, it couldn't have failed because the axioms upon it was build were ultimately flawed...

K-9

We're very much a mix of Socialism as in high SW spending and we aren't really into cuts like the Tories, the only 2 times in recent history when we did the country was bankrupt or near it.

Add in low Corporation tax, tax reliefs, dependence on Multi nationals, schemes like Jobridge and there's a Capitalist side, we are one of the most open economies in the world after all.

Tbh I don't know hoe anybody can say we are Socialist or Capitalists!

Rightwing

K-9 wrote: »

We're very much a mix of Socialism as in high SW spending and we aren't really into cuts like the Tories, the only 2 times in recent history when we did the country was bankrupt or near it.

Add in low Corporation tax, tax reliefs, dependence on Multi nationals, schemes like Jobridge and there's a Capitalist side, we are one of the most open economies in the world after all.

Tbh I don't know hoe anybody can say we are Socialist or Capitalists!

Is there any country you would classify as a capitalist society?

comongethappy

Rightwing wrote: »

Is there any country you would classify as a capitalist society?

In its purest sense?
No...there are none (imo).

All are mixed, its just a matter of degrees.

K-9

Rightwing wrote: »

Is there any country you would classify as a capitalist society?

Funny enough I was thinking that when I posted it. Singapore maybe.

European countries tend to be a mix because as posted previously, they tend to have left and right wing parties that get different stints in power, so we end up with a mix of both.

Rightwing

I agree it's down to the degrees to which they are.

Overall, of the 1st world economies Europe must be the most socialist, and I was reading somewhere before, Switzerland is the most capitalist of Europe. Whether or not this is the case I don't know.

View

The Corinthian wrote: »

In that regard, we're not that different to the rest of Europe; when you come down to it, most European socialist parties weren't exactly much more 'socialist' in their policies than FF, when they entered government

No Socialist party (or indeed any party close to it on the political spectrum) pursue policies like FF which have always been designed to benefit property developers at the expense of just about every other group in society. FF is the "Builders' party", not the party of (Organised) Labour. It, btw is very much a mainstream European Social Democrat/Socialist party (based on its voting record at European (Parlliament) level).

The Corinthian

View wrote: »

No Socialist party (or indeed any party close to it on the political spectrum) pursue policies like FF which have always been designed to benefit property developers at the expense of just about every other group in society.

You know, the history of FF or Ireland, is a bit longer than 20 years...

View

The Corinthian wrote: »

You know, the history of FF or Ireland, is a bit longer than 20 years...

You might try reading about it then!

Try reading about FF & TACA - that was almost 60 years ago and if you think the connections between the builders and FF then were there to benefit the public at large you are in dreamland.

What happened here in the last 20 years isn't an aberration, rather it is the inevitable conclusion of (the electorate & politicians) allowing one sector of our society get their way and - literally in many cases - corrupt our political decision making.

Valmont

Socialism is the name we give to the system where the state owns the means of production. Often people will say some country isn't practicing 'proper' socialism unless it's an example of socialism actually working. Considering that isn't possible, most socialists will say it's never been 'tried'. Which is like me saying I've never tried to fly because I haven't left the ground yet (ignore the flapping of my arms).


While Ireland has many specific policies which socialists would approve of, I don't think we can really say it is a socialist country as the state does not own the means of production (but it does retain the right to control them, which is a characteristic feature of fascism).

Valmont

View wrote: »

What happened here in the last 20 years isn't an aberration, rather it is the inevitable conclusion of (the electorate & politicians) allowing one sector of our society get their way and - literally in many cases - corrupt our political decision making.

This assumes there was point when political decision making wasn't corrupt. Looking at the history of the Irish state, I find that hard to swallow.

sin_city

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ireland? Socialist? - You're having a laugh

Any place that redistributes the money of those who have worked and gives houses and other benefits to those who haven't...Yes sounds socialist...All good until the state officially declares bankruptcy.

As long as the incentives are free money if you don't work - Ireland is socialist yes.

sin_city

Valmont wrote: »

(but it does retain the right to control them, which is a characteristic feature of fascism).

Fascism, you mean national socialism?

Well we sort of have a bit of that. Socialized banker debts....In capitalism the banks would not pass their debts onto the population....yeaaahhhh go socialism.

K-9

Oddly enough the PD's never get blamed for anything. The party that has influenced tax policy for the last near 30 years and nobody has raised a low tax base as ill thought out at all.

DazMarz

K-9 wrote: »

Oddly enough the PD's never get blamed for anything. The party that has influenced tax policy for the last near 30 years and nobody has raised a low tax base as ill thought out at all.

See, I think this stems from the fact that the Progressive Democrats were dead and buried by the time the economy really went into the toilet. They were gone and nobody cared enough any more. They only had 2 T.D.'s, and they swiftly went independent following the 2007 election.

The ones in power at the time of the meltdown (Fianna Fáil and the Greens) bore the absolute brunt of it for that simple reason: they were in power.

The PD's "got away with it" simply by not existing any more. I don't know if that can really qualify as "getting away with it", but that is why they are largely left blameless and FF and the Greens are the real bogeymen.

It is absolutely without question, however, that the PD's (for a party that never had more than 14 T.D.'s, and mostly never had more than 10) had an astronomical amount of power as a minority coalition partner. Their laissez-faire economic policies and so on exacerbated the economic meltdown.

But by the time that the economy hit meltdown mode (2008 or so), the PD's had been swept from power and were quietly dissolved some time in 2008 (or possibly 2009). By the time of the 2011 General Election, the anger and blame was landing squarely at the door of the only ones left to point the finger at: Fianna Fáil and The Green Party.

While Fianna Fáil could possibly fall into the category of political parties that are "Too big to fail" (along with Fine Gael), other parties can be easily dissolved and crippled. I'm amazed that the Greens didn't dissolve and re-form as something else. The PD's were just too small and lacked a proper grassroots (that most other parties have) to keep going. Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and Labour al have a very strong grassroots following.

conorh91

smcgiff wrote: »

Ireland is very much a socialist country. Not sure how we got here without socialist parties

The church and religious views of the people had an influence, but that is changing and Ireland is becoming more liberal, but there will always be social protection.

You seem to be using socialism as synonymous with communitarianism. They two may have parcels of commonalities. They are vastly different. Especially in the Irish sense, with communitarianism existing under strict conditionality, for example, an overarching commitment to private property and a liberal justice system.

Ireland is a very specific, right wing, traditional, almost congregation-like model of communtarianism. To say Ireland is socialist is going overboard, and suggests the person saying it doesn't understand what socialism is.

sin_city

conorh91 wrote: »

You seem to be using socialism as synonymous with communitarianism. They two may have parcels of commonalities. They are vastly different. Especially in the Irish sense, with communitarianism existing under strict conditionality, for example, an overarching commitment to private property and a liberal justice system.

Ireland is a very specific, right wing, traditional, almost congregation-like model of communtarianism. To say Ireland is socialist is going overboard, and suggests the person saying it doesn't understand what socialism is.

So when can we cut the welfare...ie the system which rewards doing nothing and penalizes those who earn a wage....Right wing my arse

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

We most definitely are not a liberal country compared to most of the Western world. I'm assuming liberal means the degree of personal freedom that we get to enjoy...

Abortion is illegal.
Fathers are considered second class citizens in respect to their children.
We have extremely restrictive alcohol licensing times.
You can be prosecuted for having the smallest amount of marijuana for personal use.
You can't import certain supplements and herbs that are legal in most other Western countries.
Our national transport network is run by monopoly.
Parents having to baptise their children in order to gain access to a better (in some cases the only) school.
Extortionate taxes on cigarettes and talk of a 'sugar' tax.
The extraordinary length of time it takes to get a divorce.
The archaic bankruptcy laws ( just referencing Ivan Yates here).
Extremely strict firearms regulations.