How come this country has never had a left-wing or liberal sort of government.

View

The Corinthian wrote: »

You know, the history of FF or Ireland, is a bit longer than 20 years...

You might try reading about it then!

Try reading about FF & TACA - that was almost 60 years ago and if you think the connections between the builders and FF then were there to benefit the public at large you are in dreamland.

What happened here in the last 20 years isn't an aberration, rather it is the inevitable conclusion of (the electorate & politicians) allowing one sector of our society get their way and - literally in many cases - corrupt our political decision making.

Valmont

Socialism is the name we give to the system where the state owns the means of production. Often people will say some country isn't practicing 'proper' socialism unless it's an example of socialism actually working. Considering that isn't possible, most socialists will say it's never been 'tried'. Which is like me saying I've never tried to fly because I haven't left the ground yet (ignore the flapping of my arms).


While Ireland has many specific policies which socialists would approve of, I don't think we can really say it is a socialist country as the state does not own the means of production (but it does retain the right to control them, which is a characteristic feature of fascism).

Valmont

View wrote: »

What happened here in the last 20 years isn't an aberration, rather it is the inevitable conclusion of (the electorate & politicians) allowing one sector of our society get their way and - literally in many cases - corrupt our political decision making.

This assumes there was point when political decision making wasn't corrupt. Looking at the history of the Irish state, I find that hard to swallow.

sin_city

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ireland? Socialist? - You're having a laugh

Any place that redistributes the money of those who have worked and gives houses and other benefits to those who haven't...Yes sounds socialist...All good until the state officially declares bankruptcy.

As long as the incentives are free money if you don't work - Ireland is socialist yes.

sin_city

Valmont wrote: »

(but it does retain the right to control them, which is a characteristic feature of fascism).

Fascism, you mean national socialism?

Well we sort of have a bit of that. Socialized banker debts....In capitalism the banks would not pass their debts onto the population....yeaaahhhh go socialism.

K-9

Oddly enough the PD's never get blamed for anything. The party that has influenced tax policy for the last near 30 years and nobody has raised a low tax base as ill thought out at all.

DazMarz

K-9 wrote: »

Oddly enough the PD's never get blamed for anything. The party that has influenced tax policy for the last near 30 years and nobody has raised a low tax base as ill thought out at all.

See, I think this stems from the fact that the Progressive Democrats were dead and buried by the time the economy really went into the toilet. They were gone and nobody cared enough any more. They only had 2 T.D.'s, and they swiftly went independent following the 2007 election.

The ones in power at the time of the meltdown (Fianna Fáil and the Greens) bore the absolute brunt of it for that simple reason: they were in power.

The PD's "got away with it" simply by not existing any more. I don't know if that can really qualify as "getting away with it", but that is why they are largely left blameless and FF and the Greens are the real bogeymen.

It is absolutely without question, however, that the PD's (for a party that never had more than 14 T.D.'s, and mostly never had more than 10) had an astronomical amount of power as a minority coalition partner. Their laissez-faire economic policies and so on exacerbated the economic meltdown.

But by the time that the economy hit meltdown mode (2008 or so), the PD's had been swept from power and were quietly dissolved some time in 2008 (or possibly 2009). By the time of the 2011 General Election, the anger and blame was landing squarely at the door of the only ones left to point the finger at: Fianna Fáil and The Green Party.

While Fianna Fáil could possibly fall into the category of political parties that are "Too big to fail" (along with Fine Gael), other parties can be easily dissolved and crippled. I'm amazed that the Greens didn't dissolve and re-form as something else. The PD's were just too small and lacked a proper grassroots (that most other parties have) to keep going. Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and Labour al have a very strong grassroots following.

conorh91

smcgiff wrote: »

Ireland is very much a socialist country. Not sure how we got here without socialist parties

The church and religious views of the people had an influence, but that is changing and Ireland is becoming more liberal, but there will always be social protection.

You seem to be using socialism as synonymous with communitarianism. They two may have parcels of commonalities. They are vastly different. Especially in the Irish sense, with communitarianism existing under strict conditionality, for example, an overarching commitment to private property and a liberal justice system.

Ireland is a very specific, right wing, traditional, almost congregation-like model of communtarianism. To say Ireland is socialist is going overboard, and suggests the person saying it doesn't understand what socialism is.

sin_city

conorh91 wrote: »

You seem to be using socialism as synonymous with communitarianism. They two may have parcels of commonalities. They are vastly different. Especially in the Irish sense, with communitarianism existing under strict conditionality, for example, an overarching commitment to private property and a liberal justice system.

Ireland is a very specific, right wing, traditional, almost congregation-like model of communtarianism. To say Ireland is socialist is going overboard, and suggests the person saying it doesn't understand what socialism is.

So when can we cut the welfare...ie the system which rewards doing nothing and penalizes those who earn a wage....Right wing my arse

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

We most definitely are not a liberal country compared to most of the Western world. I'm assuming liberal means the degree of personal freedom that we get to enjoy...

Abortion is illegal.
Fathers are considered second class citizens in respect to their children.
We have extremely restrictive alcohol licensing times.
You can be prosecuted for having the smallest amount of marijuana for personal use.
You can't import certain supplements and herbs that are legal in most other Western countries.
Our national transport network is run by monopoly.
Parents having to baptise their children in order to gain access to a better (in some cases the only) school.
Extortionate taxes on cigarettes and talk of a 'sugar' tax.
The extraordinary length of time it takes to get a divorce.
The archaic bankruptcy laws ( just referencing Ivan Yates here).
Extremely strict firearms regulations.

conorh91

sin_city wrote: »

So when can we cut the welfare...ie the system which rewards doing nothing and penalizes those who earn a wage....Right wing my arse

Yes, right wing communitarianism. It's basically the paternalist belief of looking after a population of non-equals who may be organized in a hierarchy, while protecting private property and private ownership of the means of production, with a strong ethical dimension. It's classic Irish Catholic teaching.

I'm not saying i approve of this. I'm saying that's what it is.

hmmm

K-9 wrote: »

Oddly enough the PD's never get blamed for anything. The party that has influenced tax policy for the last near 30 years and nobody has raised a low tax base as ill thought out at all.

The PDs advocated low personal taxes and low government spending. It was FF in power who decided to adopt the former and ignore the latter. You can blame the PDs for a few things, but the incompetence and gombeenism of FF is not one them (and can I remind you, the electorate rejected the PDs and voted FF into power).

sin_city

conorh91 wrote: »

Yes, right wing communitarianism. It's basically the paternalist belief of looking after a population of non-equals who may be organized in a hierarchy, while protecting private property and private ownership of the means of production, with a strong ethical dimension. It's classic Irish Catholic teaching.

I'm not saying i approve of this. I'm saying that's what it is.

Means of production….will you give that a rest….Communism, all those that tried….they didn’t do it right…sure.

Between communism and national socialism what, about 150 million dead?

The more free an economy is the better for the majority of its people.

How many people needed to die under communist regimes for someone to see it doesn’t work?

The current welfare system could not work under a non-fractional reserve banking and a non-inflated currency system.

Berserker

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Abortion is illegal.
Fathers are considered second class citizens in respect to their children.
We have extremely restrictive alcohol licensing times.
You can be prosecuted for having the smallest amount of marijuana for personal use.
You can't import certain supplements and herbs that are legal in most other Western countries.
Our national transport network is run by monopoly.
Parents having to baptise their children in order to gain access to a better (in some cases the only) school.
Extortionate taxes on cigarettes and talk of a 'sugar' tax.
The extraordinary length of time it takes to get a divorce.
The archaic bankruptcy laws ( just referencing Ivan Yates here).]
Extremely strict firearms regulations.

So, legalizing drugs, guns, making alcohol more freely available despite the dreadful relationship we have with it as a nation, would make us more liberal? Do you seriously believe that a relaxation of the firearm laws would benefit society? Cigarettes and sugar are bad for your health, i'm sure you'll agree. Consumption of these products will result in you needing hospital care in later life. The tax on those products contributes to funding that care.

conorh91

sin_city wrote: »

Means of production….will you give that a rest….Communism, all those that tried….they didn’t do it right…sure.

Between communism and national socialism what, about 150 million dead?

The more free an economy is the better for the majority of its people.

How many people needed to die under communist regimes for someone to see it doesn’t work?

The current welfare system could not work under a non-fractional reserve banking and a non-inflated currency system.

I said communitarianism.

sin_city

conorh91 wrote: »

I said communitarianism.

I was focusing on the comm part as in community or communism or whatever goes against other people leaving you alone.

Jamiekelly

Berserker wrote: »

So, legalizing drugs, guns, making alcohol more freely available despite the dreadful relationship we have with it as a nation, would make us more liberal? Do you seriously believe that a relaxation of the firearm laws would benefit society? Cigarettes and sugar are bad for your health, i'm sure you'll agree. Consumption of these products will result in you needing hospital care in later life. The tax on those products contributes to funding that care.

You missed the point completely....

conorh91

sin_city wrote: »

I was focusing on the comm part as in community or communism or whatever goes against other people leaving you alone.

No, you mentioned communism three times specifically. Also, I'm not defending communitarianism, I'm describing Ireland as being, or having been, substantially communitarian, as distinct from socialist, in character. OK?

View

hmmm wrote: »

The PDs advocated low personal taxes and low government spending.

That is true but they didn't vote for them when in office. Rather they agreed and backed joint policies with FF and are as culpable as them for the subsequent results of those policies.

sin_city

Berserker wrote: »

So, legalizing drugs, guns, making alcohol more freely available despite the dreadful relationship we have with it as a nation, would make us more liberal? Do you seriously believe that a relaxation of the firearm laws would benefit society? Cigarettes and sugar are bad for your health, i'm sure you'll agree. Consumption of these products will result in you needing hospital care in later life. The tax on those products contributes to funding that care.

Who are you to decide what is good and isn't good for me?

Many drugs are legal by the way..Why is Aspartame in Diet Coke legal while Marijuana is illegal?

conorh91 wrote: »

No, you mentioned communism three times specifically. Also, I'm not defending communitarianism, I'm describing Ireland as being, or having been, substantially communitarian, as distinct from socialist, in character. OK?

Well I don't see the difference...it is the comm part that enables people who don't work to get free houses and money that the government steals from those who do work.

Mafia extortion racket to keep the peace?

conorh91

sin_city wrote: »

Well I don't see the difference...

If you don't see a difference between communism and semi-authoritarian capitalism (communitarianism), and you think both apply to Ireland equally, then you have a problem I can't help you with.

sin_city

conorh91 wrote: »

If you don't see a difference between communism and semi-authoritarian capitalism (communitarianism), and you think both apply to Ireland equally, then you have a problem I can't help you with.

Here's how I see it...through communism or socialism of whatever sort(which we have)...it will continue until it bankrupts the state.


We've been giving away more and more free stuff and increasing taxes...the debt keeps going up and up.

Any kind of socialism is theft and a racket. Ireland like all western countries is becoming more and more socialist...and most Asian countries are becoming more and more capitalist....Guess who's standard of living is going up and who's is going down...guess who will be too broke to give out the dole in the coming years and who has trillions in reserves of cash and gold?

conorh91

Ok, you're just looking for someone to get into an argument about communism so you can peddle your own opinions, even though they're not relevant to any reply I make.

Not interested, I'm out.

sin_city

conorh91 wrote: »

Ok, you're just looking for someone to get into an argument about communism so you can peddle your own opinions, even though they're not relevant to any reply I make.

Not interested, I'm out.

Nope, communism is an extreme but any type of socialism is theft....we do plenty of that in Ireland...we've been under some sort of socialism for the lower classes and the bankers recently with the middle class or those trying to get into the middle class being robbed.

Corkfeen

conorh91 wrote: »

Ok, you're just looking for someone to get into an argument about communism so you can peddle your own opinions, even though they're not relevant to any reply I make.

Not interested, I'm out.

I have an odd feeling that Sin City would view the US as a socialist country... :P

sin_city

Corkfeen wrote: »

I have an odd feeling that Sin City would view the US as a socialist country... :P

Sort of...Socialism for the rich....TARP is an example.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Berserker wrote: »

So, legalizing drugs, guns, making alcohol more freely available despite the dreadful relationship we have with it as a nation, would make us more liberal? Do you seriously believe that a relaxation of the firearm laws would benefit society? Cigarettes and sugar are bad for your health, i'm sure you'll agree. Consumption of these products will result in you needing hospital care in later life. The tax on those products contributes to funding that care.

I like that we have strict gun laws just to say.

I think with regards the consumption of alcohol, sugar, marijuana or cigarettes it is morally wrong to dictate through laws what people can and cannot put into their own body generally. It is morally reprehensible to put people in a cage for having some weed on them for personal use (I'm anti smoking weed btw, I'm just more anti putting people in jail for stupid reasons). From a cold economic perspective we want people to smoke and eat too much sugar so they die off younger rather than live into their 90's collecting an unsustainable state pension.

Talk of a sugar tax is getting into serious nanny state territory. Some people eat too much cake everyday, it is an idiotic justification to force everyone to pay more tax on cake because of that though. The talk of it from O'Reilly strikes me the same as an alcoholic wanting drink to become harder to procure because they can't control their own lust for it.

DarkyHughes

sin_city wrote: »

Sort of...Socialism for the rich.....

That's kinda like what the Soviet Union was after Lenin sized power in the October coup/revolution

joe swanson

You only have to look at the current batch of left wing tds to see why we never had a left wing govt.

Daly, Wallace et al. A govt with those sort of people would destroy the country.

DarkyHughes

It's strange tho that when we were a forced part of the UK we our politicians always sided with labor or liberal mp's as opposed to right-wing ones.

fly_agaric

joe swanson wrote: »

You only have to look at the current batch of left wing tds to see why we never had a left wing govt.

Daly, Wallace et al. A govt with those sort of people would destroy the country.

(edit - not saying I think Daly/Wallace are the answer to our prayers or anything) but this argument about "looney lefties" "destroying the country" if put at the controls is something I cannot get my head around.
The centre right parties that joe/josephine o'bloggs love to vote for again and again (esp. FF) have been shown to be corrupt, quite incompetent at governing and have reduced the country to international beggar status on a few occasions. Their record is poor and we definitely need a change for our own good but I can't see where it will come from.

joe swanson

fly_agaric wrote: »

(edit - not saying I think Daly/Wallace are the answer to our prayers or anything) but this argument about "looney lefties" "destroying the country" if put at the controls is something I cannot get my head around.
The centre right parties that joe/josephine o'bloggs love to vote for again and again (esp. FF) have been shown to be corrupt, quite incompetent at governing and have reduced the country to international beggar status on a few occasions. Their record is poor and we definitely need a change for our own good but I can't see where it will come from.

I agree to a certain extent as far as people continuously voting for fianna fail etc. There is a lack of a real alternative. I wouldn't be adverse to voting for a left wing party with realistic policies, but its not there, just the loonies.

DazMarz

What this country really and truly needs is a realistic, pragmatic left-leaning party. Or at least very socially liberal (in favour of gay rights, pro-choice, pro-legalisation of cannabis, etc.) with a bit of common sense with fiscal issues.

You could argue the Labour Party are that, but they are going to be eviscerated come the next General Election and will do well to get 10 seats.

Sinn Féin are a bit too extreme still for my liking. Add in the Republican nonsense just does my nut in. Also, the flip-flopping in terms of policy depending on what side of the border you're on is also totally hypocritical. The reason they are so popular is that they are giving easy/glib answers to tough questions and saying what the people want to hear. But it is a huge protest vote (mostly disillusioned Labour voters). Once the economy starts to normalise again (which it will), their support will drop considerably.

Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil are like that horrendous spider that lurks in its hidey-hole, waiting... interminably waiting... and then it strikes when something wanders close enough, killing it and seizing victory. They will bide their time. They have a huge core vote and this will ensure that they get enough seats at every election to force themselves into government. I'd say come the next General Election, Fine Gael will get somewhere around 60/65 seats, Fianna Fáil somewhere around 35/40 seats. This will be the foundation for a coalition. For sure, FF lost a lot of votes in the last GE, but some of them will have swung back.

The main objective for FG/FF/Lab at the next election will be quite simple: "Stop Sinn Féin". This is what they will work towards. And thanks to SF's baggage and the simple fact of Ireland still being quite conservative, the old guard will succeed. For sure, SF will get around 30 seats (doubling their current levels), but in order for them to elbow their way into power, they would need around the 50 seat mark. That is a bridge too far. They are almost assuredly destined to be the leaders of the opposition next time out.

This will lead to, for the first time, a true left/right divide in the Dáil.

sin_city

DazMarz wrote: »

What this country really and truly needs is a realistic, pragmatic left-leaning party. Or at least very socially liberal (in favour of gay rights, pro-choice, pro-legalisation of cannabis, etc.) with a bit of common sense with fiscal issues.

You could argue the Labour Party are that, but they are going to be eviscerated come the next General Election and will do well to get 10 seats.

Sinn Féin are a bit too extreme still for my liking. Add in the Republican nonsense just does my nut in. Also, the flip-flopping in terms of policy depending on what side of the border you're on is also totally hypocritical. The reason they are so popular is that they are giving easy/glib answers to tough questions and saying what the people want to hear. But it is a huge protest vote (mostly disillusioned Labour voters). Once the economy starts to normalise again (which it will), their support will drop considerably.

Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil are like that horrendous spider that lurks in its hidey-hole, waiting... interminably waiting... and then it strikes when something wanders close enough, killing it and seizing victory. They will bide their time. They have a huge core vote and this will ensure that they get enough seats at every election to force themselves into government. I'd say come the next General Election, Fine Gael will get somewhere around 60/65 seats, Fianna Fáil somewhere around 35/40 seats. This will be the foundation for a coalition. For sure, FF lost a lot of votes in the last GE, but some of them will have swung back.

The main objective for FG/FF/Lab at the next election will be quite simple: "Stop Sinn Féin". This is what they will work towards. And thanks to SF's baggage and the simple fact of Ireland still being quite conservative, the old guard will succeed. For sure, SF will get around 30 seats (doubling their current levels), but in order for them to elbow their way into power, they would need around the 50 seat mark. That is a bridge too far. They are almost assuredly destined to be the leaders of the opposition next time out.

This will lead to, for the first time, a true left/right divide in the Dáil.

A lot of people are getting sick of government's involvement in stuff....I think we need to legalize everything and as for gay marriage, why not get the government completely out of marriage also? Then we'd all be able to sign a contract with a partner but not call it marriage...Leave that to the respective churches that want to do it under "God"

carpejugulum

You can contribute nothing and still live comfortably here. Not even communist countries achieved that.

RichardAnd

sin_city wrote: »

A lot of people are getting sick of government's involvement in stuff....I think we need to legalize everything and as for gay marriage, why not get the government completely out of marriage also? Then we'd all be able to sign a contract with a partner but not call it marriage...Leave that to the respective churches that want to do it under "God"

Well said. I think a big part of the issue is that, for the most part, the government is made up of aged Irish Catholics. Most of them look at the world through the tinted looking glasses of their generation. That's perfectly fine on a personal level, but is it the case that those preconceptions translate into legislation? In my opinion, they do.

For that reason, I espouse a liberal view on most things. Even if I don't like what others do, I don't think that my beliefs should be forced upon them. I don't believe in god, but I have no problem if someone else wants to believe in him. What I have a huge problem with is when their beliefs start impacting what I can and can not do.

Gay marriage is a prime example of that. I'm not gay, but if I were I would be prevented from marrying my partner simply because other people find it to be incompatible with their beliefs. Well, what they need to understand is that what they believe is just that; it's what they believe. In no way is it actually true.

Ireland needs to change in that regard. In an increasingly global world, people outside can look in, and they might start making assumptions when they see things like this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/suicidal-woman-in-ireland-was-denied-abortion-and-forced-to-have-caesarean--section-9675240.html

Enough said...

DarkyHughes

DazMarz wrote: »

What this country really and truly needs is a realistic, pragmatic left-leaning party. Or at least very socially liberal (in favour of gay rights, pro-choice, pro-legalisation of cannabis, etc.) with a bit of common sense with fiscal issues.

You could argue the Labour Party are that, but they are going to be eviscerated come the next General Election and will do well to get 10 seats.

Sinn Féin are a bit too extreme still for my liking. Add in the Republican nonsense just does my nut in. Also, the flip-flopping in terms of policy depending on what side of the border you're on is also totally hypocritical. The reason they are so popular is that they are giving easy/glib answers to tough questions and saying what the people want to hear. But it is a huge protest vote (mostly disillusioned Labour voters). Once the economy starts to normalise again (which it will), their support will drop considerably.

Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil are like that horrendous spider that lurks in its hidey-hole, waiting... interminably waiting... and then it strikes when something wanders close enough, killing it and seizing victory. They will bide their time. They have a huge core vote and this will ensure that they get enough seats at every election to force themselves into government. I'd say come the next General Election, Fine Gael will get somewhere around 60/65 seats, Fianna Fáil somewhere around 35/40 seats. This will be the foundation for a coalition. For sure, FF lost a lot of votes in the last GE, but some of them will have swung back.

The main objective for FG/FF/Lab at the next election will be quite simple: "Stop Sinn Féin". This is what they will work towards. And thanks to SF's baggage and the simple fact of Ireland still being quite conservative, the old guard will succeed. For sure, SF will get around 30 seats (doubling their current levels), but in order for them to elbow their way into power, they would need around the 50 seat mark. That is a bridge too far. They are almost assuredly destined to be the leaders of the opposition next time out.

This will lead to, for the first time, a true left/right divide in the Dáil.

I think something in between Sinn Fein & Labor would be perfect.

For Reals

pO1Neil wrote: »

Since the state was formed we've been dominated for moist of the 20th century by Catholic conservative without question. We never had anything like the Democrats in America or Labor in Britain when it used to be left-wing.......

We'll always be no more than an election away from one of these two:

Like it's founder Fianna Fáil runs on greed so they'll pay lip service to whatever works for them at the time. It's self, party, county, country.

Fine Gael...the poor man's Fianna Fáil.
Right of centre though and the closest thing we have to Tories.

The civil war lines are drawn deep. Any other party, even Sinn Fein to an extent, are seen as outsiders.

DarkyHughes

For Reals wrote: »

We'll always be no more than an election away from one of these two:

Like it's founder Fianna Fáil runs on greed so they'll pay lip service to whatever works for them at the time. It's self, party, county, country.

Fine Gael...the poor man's Fianna Fáil.
Right of centre though and the closest thing we have to Tories.

The civil war lines are drawn deep. Any other party, even Sinn Fein to an extent, are seen as outsiders.

Yeah, I agree with all that.

God it's bloody depressing to think about tho.