Getting medicine through pharmacy

little sis...

Hey I'm a medicine hopeful and I was wondering is there any way of doing pharmacy and then getting into med? I'd rather not apply abroad but all suggestions are welcome

Thanks

I'm not sure where to post this so a little hand from the mods would be appreciated

LemonWorld

Hi OP,

In Ireland there are basically two routes for getting into medicine - undergraduate (5/6 years) or graduate entry/GEM (4 years). Undergraduate you can go straight from school (or indeed you can do it having done another degree), but for GEM you need to have at least a 2.1 in a previous degree in any subject.

There's no "conversion course" as such for pharmacy to medicine. You could do a degree in pharmacy, but then you'd still have to try and get onto the graduate program.

Obviously if you're coming straight from school, undergrad is the quickest and cheapest route. If you don't get medicine as your first choice, your choices are to repeat your LC and try again, or go do another course, get a 2.1 and then try and get onto the GEM course.

I'm not sure if you're aware that while the undergraduate course is "free" at 2,500 per year (provided it's your first college course), for the GEM course you need to pay fees of approx 15,000 a year (60,000 by the end of it).

Hope that makes things a bit clearer for you?

little sis...

LemonWorld wrote: »

Hi OP,

In Ireland there are basically two routes for getting into medicine - undergraduate (5/6 years) or graduate entry/GEM (4 years). Undergraduate you can go straight from school (or indeed you can do it having done another degree), but for GEM you need to have at least a 2.1 in a previous degree in any subject.

There's no "conversion course" as such for pharmacy to medicine. You could do a degree in pharmacy, but then you'd still have to try and get onto the graduate program.

Obviously if you're coming straight from school, undergrad is the quickest and cheapest route. If you don't get medicine as your first choice, your choices are to repeat your LC and try again, or go do another course, get a 2.1 and then try and get onto the GEM course.

I'm not sure if you're aware that while the undergraduate course is "free" at 2,500 per year (provided it's your first college course), for the GEM course you need to pay fees of approx 15,000 a year (60,000 by the end of it).

Hope that makes things a bit clearer for you?

Thanks for replying.
Yeh I was aware of most of that I just thought there may have been some other info I didn't know about.

I didn't do well in the hpat this year unfortunately so I was thinking of other options because I don't think it's something I could improve if I repeat.

The GEM course seems quite long and expensive so it seems the only option is to repeat.

If I hopefully get a good leaving cert should I just accept whatever course I get and repeat the hpat?

LemonWorld

little sis... wrote: »

Thanks for replying.
Yeh I was aware of most of that I just thought there may have been some other info I didn't know about.

I didn't do well in the hpat this year unfortunately so I was thinking of other options because I don't think it's something I could improve if I repeat.

The GEM course seems quite long and expensive so it seems the only option is to repeat.

If I hopefully get a good leaving cert should I just accept whatever course I get and repeat the hpat?

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as patronizing, just wasn't sure how much you did or didn't know!

Yeah, the GEM course is long and expensive but it's not completely un-doable, especially if you've been planning and saving a few years in advance. Although in your situation I think your best option is to go to college and repeat after xmas. I know loads of people who improved their scores over 2 years, so it's definitely worth a try!

All the best, OP!

partyatmygaff

An alternative if you're very academically minded (and have lots of free time) is to do a degree in Trinity such as Pharmacy and try and successfully sit the scholarship exams. If you do, you can do grad med for free in Trinity (as well as enjoy free campus accommodation and food).

A few small problems however...
1. It's very time consuming
2. The Scholarship exams are very challenging and they are going to make it harder from next year one. It would be very foolish to plan around being successful in them.
3. It's not guaranteed you'll get in to graduate medicine in Trinity. There is still the GAMSAT and other requirements to contend with.

Not only that but imo at least, you'd have access to a broader range of careers with a Pharmacy degree and can use that scholarship to much better effect than another 4 year Bachelor's degree. A P.hD in pharmacy would go a long way in Ireland. We're one of the world's leading countries when it comes to pharmaceutical industry. You could intermit a while and return to do an MBA and save paying the €27,500/year fees if you're interested in the business end of pharmacy and pharmaceutical industry.

Basically, keep an open mind and consider Trinity if you aren't already!

little sis...

partyatmygaff wrote: »

An alternative if you're very academically minded (and have lots of free time) is to do a degree in Trinity such as Pharmacy and try and successfully sit the scholarship exams. If you do, you can do grad med for free in Trinity (as well as enjoy free campus accommodation and food).

A few small problems however...
1. It's very time consuming
2. The Scholarship exams are very challenging and they are going to make it harder from next year one. It would be very foolish to plan around being successful in them.
3. It's not guaranteed you'll get in to graduate medicine in Trinity. There is still the GAMSAT and other requirements to contend with.

Not only that but imo at least, you'd have access to a broader range of careers with a Pharmacy degree and can use that scholarship to much better effect than another 4 year Bachelor's degree. A P.hD in pharmacy would go a long way in Ireland. We're one of the world's leading countries when it comes to pharmaceutical industry. You could intermit a while and return to do an MBA and save paying the €27,500/year fees if you're interested in the business end of pharmacy and pharmaceutical industry.

Basically, keep an open mind and consider Trinity if you aren't already!

So I would have to get a scholarship in pharmacy and get a good GAMSAT if I were to take that route to do grad med in Trinity? I don't think the scholarship is essential I thought it was just the 2.1 required for grad med.

Kwekubo

Just to clarify, there is no graduate entry medicine programme in Trinity; graduates can obtain places on the undergraduate course either by resitting the Leaving Cert and HPAT and applying that way, or by applying as mature students. The Irish GEM programmes are at UCD, RCSI, UCC and UL.

echo beach

Applying abroad would be a much simpler and cheaper option than doing a degree and then graduate entry medicine. I'm sure you have reasons for preferring not to but you shouldn't dismiss the option altogether.
Somebody who has no real interest in pharmacy, or any other subject for that matter, will find it tough going studying it for five years when what they really want is to be doing something else.

locum-motion

Pharmacy is a highly competitive programme to get into. Why are you so sure that you'll get the points for Pharm but not for Med?
And if you do, you'd be taking a space from another applicant who is actually interested in a career in Pharmacy. Pharmacy is not likely to be the most helpful in studying Medicine.
You might be better to consider a different first degree if you want to go the GradMed route. Pharmacology might ultimately prove more useful.

little sis...

locum-motion wrote: »

Pharmacy is a highly competitive programme to get into. Why are you so sure that you'll get the points for Pharm but not for Med?
And if you do, you'd be taking a space from another applicant who is actually interested in a career in Pharmacy. Pharmacy is not likely to be the most helpful in studying Medicine.
You might be better to consider a different first degree if you want to go the GradMed route. Pharmacology might ultimately prove more useful.

I'm obviously not sure I'll get into pharmacy but I definitely can't get into med because I did poorly in the hpat.
I prefer pharmacy as the first degree because I like the careers available to me afterwards just in case I don't get grad med through that route.
Well I also have goals and if it means doing pharmacy to get to where I want then I will take that route and will be no different to the others who 'are actually interested in a career in pharmacy' because they're doing that course to achieve their goals too.

Taco Chips

little sis... wrote: »

I'm obviously not sure I'll get into pharmacy but I definitely can't get into med because I did poorly in the hpat.
I prefer pharmacy as the first degree because I like the careers available to me afterwards just in case I don't get grad med through that route.
Well I also have goals and if it means doing pharmacy to get to where I want then I will take that route and will be no different to the others who 'are actually interested in a career in pharmacy' because they're doing that course to achieve their goals too.

You'll have your reasons no doubt but I want to echo the points made. Pharmacy is a very different career path to Medicine. The courses are nothing alike apart from a small bit of basic science overlap in first year. You need to fix your preferences in a logical manner.

If your first choice is undergrad medicine but you did poorly in the HPAT, consider repeating next year. It's only another year and will work out a lot cheaper and more efficient. People jump up by huge amounts on their second attempts at the exam. It's been shown over and over again. I sat the HPAT 3 times and my points total rose by almost 70 across from my first sitting to the last one.

If you are thinking of going to college anyway and doing postgrad medicine there are a number of other degrees that would be more beneficial to you. Degrees that have a lot more in common with what you'll study in medical school and that will better prepare you for the GAMSAT. Pharmacology was mentioned, also physiology, biochemistry, neuroscience etc... would all be much better choices than Pharmacy for an undergrad.

If you're worried about a career if all that fails, well there are a heap of career options available to you upon completion of any of those degrees that I mentioned. Pharmacists aren't raking in huge money any more and there aren't as many employment opportunities as you would think.

little sis...

Taco Chips wrote: »

You'll have your reasons no doubt but I want to echo the points made. Pharmacy is a very different career path to Medicine. The courses are nothing alike apart from a small bit of basic science overlap in first year. You need to fix your preferences in a logical manner.

If your first choice is undergrad medicine but you did poorly in the HPAT, consider repeating next year. It's only another year and will work out a lot cheaper and more efficient. People jump up by huge amounts on their second attempts at the exam. It's been shown over and over again. I sat the HPAT 3 times and my points total rose by almost 70 across from my first sitting to the last one.

If you are thinking of going to college anyway and doing postgrad medicine there are a number of other degrees that would be more beneficial to you. Degrees that have a lot more in common with what you'll study in medical school and that will better prepare you for the GAMSAT. Pharmacology was mentioned, also physiology, biochemistry, neuroscience etc... would all be much better choices than Pharmacy for an undergrad.

If you're worried about a career if all that fails, well there are a heap of career options available to you upon completion of any of those degrees that I mentioned. Pharmacists aren't raking in huge money any more and there aren't as many employment opportunities as you would think.

Even if I go into college and do another course I still plan on repeating the hpat but I just don't want to bank on that.

I appreciate the other, more suitable, first degree courses you are suggesting but it's too late to put them on my CAO anyway. But I have pharmacy down so that explains Why I was trying to find a way to med thorough that route.

The GAMSAT also seems fairly similar to the hpat by the looks of it and I doubt that's something I'd do well in either.

I'm just looking for other options I have by working with what I already have down on my CAO.
I guess I'm trying to find a route that doesn't exist...

kmul

Do you have Biomed down on your CAO? If you were to do that, there is a bit of an overlap with it and Med and plenty of people go into Biomed planning to repeat the HPAT.

challengemaster

little sis... wrote: »

Even if I go into college and do another course I still plan on repeating the hpat but I just don't want to bank on that.

If you do that, should you get into medicine upon repeating the hpat you'll end up paying tuition fees for the first year (or however many years you do before getting medicine).

little sis...

kmul wrote: »

Do you have Biomed down on your CAO? If you were to do that, there is a bit of an overlap with it and Med and plenty of people go into Biomed planning to repeat the HPAT.

Yes but it's my tenth choice.

little sis...

challengemaster wrote: »

If you do that, should you get into medicine upon repeating the hpat you'll end up paying tuition fees for the first year (or however many years you do before getting medicine).

I'm aware of that but it's better than sitting at home doing nothing for however many years.

Taco Chips

little sis... wrote: »

I'm aware of that but it's better than sitting at home doing nothing for however many years.

Theres a lot to be said for taking a year out to work and save up money for college while repeating the HPAT. I did a year of a course in college while repeating the HPAT and then was liable to pay the full 8 grand for first med when I got in. It's a major financial burden for an 18/19 year old to bear. I was seriously stressed out for a good portion of the year trying to pay it back. And first med is already much of a trial by fire so theres no need to add to it. That said I don't regret doing the year in the other course, I enjoyed it and made great friends. But make sure you will be able to finance yourself first and foremost.

SpiderP

Too long, didn't read:
- It's not anyone else's business if you wish to remain or not remain in pharmacy after qualifying.
- Pharmacy is the best degree you can do if you wish to undertake medicine as a graduate.
- Even if medicine doesn't work out, you've got a great qualification and are well set up to get a well paid job.

locum-motion wrote: »

...you'd be taking a space from another applicant who is actually interested in a career in Pharmacy.

Would have to agree with her response to your statement here. CAO is incredibly fair from the point of view that students are numbers and those numbers with the points get the course and those who don't, bad luck. If she wants to do pharmacy with a view to doing medicine afterwards, who cares if she'll be "taking a space" off someone who wanted a career in pharmacy? Is she supposed to feel guilty for scoring higher points than some other anonymous leaving cert student? Absolutely not, as she said herself - she's trying to attain a goal and if this degree is how she chooses to achieve that, fair play to her, it's not an easy route. As a pharmacist who swapped a green pen for stethoscope I've encountered a lot of veiled bitterness from other pharmacists in my time (not friends of mine mind you, but former colleagues, other pharmacists I have met and had discussions with about my choice, and even former lecturers) - I don't understand why other pharmacists get defensive about people choosing to leave the profession or using it as a stepping stone for other careers. I certainly wouldn't discourage someone from doing it if it's what they really wanted.

locum-motion wrote: »

Pharmacy is not likely to be the most helpful in studying Medicine. You might be better to consider a different first degree if you want to go the GradMed route. Pharmacology might ultimately prove more useful.

Taco Chips wrote: »

You'll have your reasons no doubt but I want to echo the points made. Pharmacy is a very different career path to Medicine. The courses are nothing alike apart from a small bit of basic science overlap in first year. You need to fix your preferences in a logical manner...If you are thinking of going to college anyway and doing postgrad medicine there are a number of other degrees that would be more beneficial to you. Degrees that have a lot more in common with what you'll study in medical school and that will better prepare you for the GAMSAT. Pharmacology was mentioned, also physiology, biochemistry, neuroscience etc... would all be much better choices than Pharmacy for an undergrad.

I really don't think this is accurate. General entry science courses leading to degrees in pharmacology/pharmaceutical chemistry/biochem/immunology/genetics/whatever are excellent no doubt for a variety of reasons, particularly for getting a good grounding in basic 3rd level scientific concepts and also for developing good research skills. For the purposes of studying medicine however they offer nothing more than a pharmacy degree in this regard. The graduate program in UCD has just under two academic years of pre-clinical training. You in no way even come close to touching the level of detail in physiology/genetics/micro/biochem/whatever modules that you would experience in an undergraduate degree specializing in any of those topics mentioned (Source: classmates who've completed these degrees). Now I know the pharmacy program where I studied has changed since I was an undergrad but the content and detail we went into for those pre-clinical science modules was pretty much identical to the GEM syllabus. Almost so identical in fact that I skipped three of the modules in my first year of medicine on the grounds that I had covered the topics during my pharmacy degree. Worth noting also that many of my friends from other science degrees in the graduate program were not afforded the same exemptions (Also worth noting that a Biomedical science degree got people out of modules also!) Friends of mine in my class from science (and non-science!) backgrounds have said to me in the past that if they had to do one degree before studying medicine it would have been pharmacy. For the above mentioned reasons but also for one other very crucial reason: The ability to earn as a part time locum to fund your studies. I would not have been able to afford to go back to college if it wasn't for this. You realistically have limited earning potential during your studies from other degrees.

With regards to being better prepared for the GAMSAT with other degrees, I don't feel this is accurate either. A pharmacy degree will give you the requisite knowledge for performing in this exam.

Taco Chips wrote: »

If you're worried about a career if all that fails, well there are a heap of career options available to you upon completion of any of those degrees that I mentioned. Pharmacists aren't raking in huge money any more and there aren't as many employment opportunities as you would think.

While it might be getting off topic a bit I would like to address this also. Pharmacy employment at the moment is still very high. Is it as lucrative as it was 7/8 years ago? Certainly not. Is it still well paid job for a newly qualified twenty something. Without a doubt. I don't know a single qualified pharmacist that is on the live register (I'm not saying there aren't any - just that I don't know of any, and I know a lot of pharmacists). As careers go, it's probably one of the few science degrees where you can qualify and immediately make good earnings without undertaking further optional postgraduate qualifications. Even aside from working as a pharmacist in the traditional sense, most of my close pharmacy friends are not actually working as pharmacists as the general public would see it. They're either engaged in higher studies or working in the pharmaceutical industry, in both managerial and production/R+D roles, and in regulatory affairs with agencies in Ireland and abroad. Working in a community pharmacy is not the be all and end all of completing a pharmacy degree.

Thanks for reading. I wish you all the best littlesis...

Nonoperational

I did pharmacy and GEM. It's a very good course to do for medicine.

If you're inclined to do medicine then do it, there is no comparison in the careers.

Abby19

partyatmygaff wrote: »

An alternative if you're very academically minded (and have lots of free time) is to do a degree in Trinity such as Pharmacy and try and successfully sit the scholarship exams. If you do, you can do grad med for free in Trinity (as well as enjoy free campus accommodation and food).

A few small problems however...
1. It's very time consuming
2. The Scholarship exams are very challenging and they are going to make it harder from next year one. It would be very foolish to plan around being successful in them.
3. It's not guaranteed you'll get in to graduate medicine in Trinity. There is still the GAMSAT and other requirements to contend with.

(snip)

Please note that scholarship exams grant you free fees for 5 years. You can only sit the scholarship exams at the Christmas of 2nd year now. So you use up 2 years to complete pharmacy (it does not matter that you have free fees, it still uses up 2 of your years), you can apply for a deferment for a year or two to complete your pre-reg year, and then use your last 3 years for medicine. (Source - one of my classmates was a Pharmacy schol and had to pay fees in 4th and 5th year, despite making this argument to the powers that be.)

Schol is not easy and I wouldn't count on getting it and basing future financial planning on it. The cheapest option would be to repeat the LC and HPAT if you have your heart set on doing medicine. Check out the GAMSAT and GEM thread to see how people are struggling to obtain loans, and then to make repayments on commencement of working.

I believe that the LC and HPAT now have to be completed in the same year, though I stand to be corrected on this.

SpiderP made a very valid point regarding ability to earn while studying. There were 3 pharmacists and 1 physio in my class and they could all locum. Those of us from other backgrounds found it hard to get well paid flexible work.

pc11

Abby19 wrote: »

Please note that scholarship exams grant you free fees for 5 years. You can only sit the scholarship exams at the Christmas of 2nd year now. So you use up 2 years to complete pharmacy (it does not matter that you have free fees, it still uses up 2 of your years), you can apply for a deferment for a year or two to complete your pre-reg year, and then use your last 3 years for medicine. (Source - one of my classmates was a Pharmacy schol and had to pay fees in 4th and 5th year, despite making this argument to the powers that be.)

Schol is not easy and I wouldn't count on getting it and basing future financial planning on it. The cheapest option would be to repeat the LC and HPAT if you have your heart set on doing medicine. Check out the GAMSAT and GEM thread to see how people are struggling to obtain loans, and then to make repayments on commencement of working.

I believe that the LC and HPAT now have to be completed in the same year, though I stand to be corrected on this.

SpiderP made a very valid point regarding ability to earn while studying. There were 3 pharmacists and 1 physio in my class and they could all locum. Those of us from other backgrounds found it hard to get well paid flexible work.

There is no grad med in TCD.

egg head

I believe that the LC and HPAT now have to be completed in the same year, though I stand to be corrected on this.

hi abby19. Only the HPAT has to be sat the same year you apply to college. (not the lc)

little sis...

So I accepted my offer for Dental Science in Trinity.....

So I need to change the title of this thread to 'getting medicine through dentistry' :P

Anybody done it before? I'll be repeating the hpat of course but if that fails, any ideas?

partyatmygaff

As far as I know, if you complete dentistry you can go straight to 3rd year medicine via advanced entry (in Trinity at least). You also need to complete the professional exams and have a 2:1 in your degree.

More info here:
https://www.tcd.ie/Admissions/undergraduate/apply/transferred/from-third-level/

Not sure in Ireland but in the UK you actually need to have both degrees to be a maxillofacial surgeon.

little sis...

partyatmygaff wrote: »

As far as I know, if you complete dentistry you can go straight to 3rd year medicine via advanced entry (in Trinity at least). You also need to complete the professional exams and have a 2:1 in your degree.

More info here:
https://www.tcd.ie/Admissions/undergraduate/apply/transferred/from-third-level/

Not sure in Ireland but in the UK you actually need to have both degrees to be a maxillofacial surgeon.

Yes I've heard of that and couldn't find the link. Thanks very much

Abby19

partyatmygaff wrote: »

As far as I know, if you complete dentistry you can go straight to 3rd year medicine via advanced entry (in Trinity at least). You also need to complete the professional exams and have a 2:1 in your degree.

More info here:
https://www.tcd.ie/Admissions/undergraduate/apply/transferred/from-third-level/

Not sure in Ireland but in the UK you actually need to have both degrees to be a maxillofacial surgeon.

I believe in Ireland too. I don't believe there is a training scheme in maxillofacial over here, you have to do the SpR training in the UK (according to a classmate). It is actually faster to do complete the two by doing Dentistry first, 5+3 years. Dentistry is considered to have 4 clinical years, so to do it the other way is 5+4.

And congratulations on getting into Dentistry! Handy to do some locuming while you are studying medicine. You only get one free degree, so will need to pay for the 3 years of medicine if you decide to go that route.