Would you pay 2 months deposit?

noodler

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Don't think I've ever seen an ad that specified the deposit amount.

davo10 wrote: »

Just checked a few places in various parts of Dublin/country, no mention of deposit amount.

One month's deposit is advertised quite often and, in my experience of course, when it is not advertised it winds up being one month anyway after further discussion.

Michael D Not Higgins

noodler wrote: »

One month's deposit is advertised quite often and, in my experience of course, when it is not advertised it winds up being one month anyway after further discussion.

Just did a search on daft for deposit in Dublin. Most specifying one month deposit (or implying as such) and a surprising amount of the high class apartments offering 50% month's deposit.
http://www.daft.ie/lettings/vantage-apartments-central-park-leopardstown-roa-sandyford-dublin/1466542/

http://www.daft.ie/lettings/alto-vetro-grand-canal-dock-dublin-2-dublin/1469779/

Edit: for that search it came back with 79 results in Dublin out of over 2000 available in Dublin, so it's not advertised that often, as it's almost expected that it's one month's deposit.

davo10

noodler wrote: »

One month's deposit is advertised quite often and, in my experience of course, when it is not advertised it winds up being one month anyway after further discussion.

That would seem to be changing and as it is now becoming a condition of the lease, it's either yah or nah.

This is the Governments fault for not legislating for these types of problems. Both parties a vulnerable and can be taken advantage of, but as that article in last weeks paper stated, a delinquent tenant can stay up to 18 months and a LL can do f all about it. So I and many others want to get as much protection as possible.

Magicmatilda

I don't see the problem once yu get a receipt. If he doesn't return it you can go to the PRTB, I know that takes time but if you can afford it and you like the place then why not. I've rented for years, had 10 landlords and only 1 was dodgy, too be honst I was too young to realise how dodgy and I could have and should have gone through PRTB.

Eldarion

If I had a property who had 20+ ideal candidates lined up and willing to pay 2 months deposit then why wouldn't I ask for it? It's reassuring about the tenant's financial stability if nothing else.

The position of power is with the Landlord in this situation just as it is with any other service in a capitalist based economy. Getting irate over this is madness. Voice your displeasure with your feet, but as long as there's at least 1 other candidate unwilling to do the same then your footsteps will go unheard and the landlord won't think twice about you.

the_syco

The_Conductor wrote: »

2 or even 3 month's deposit is rapidly becoming the norm here.

Would it be rude asking for the landlords bank statements to ensure he has the capital to return it at the end of the tenancy, and that he's not about to go bankrupt and wash his hands of the deposit?

It may be becoming standard, but it seems it's also becoming common to notify the tenant that the house has been repossessed, and they no longer have enough money to give the tenant the deposit.

Bepolite

the_syco wrote: »

Would it be rude asking for the landlords bank statements to ensure he has the capital to return it at the end of the tenancy, and that he's not about to go bankrupt and wash his hands of the deposit?

It may be becoming standard, but it seems it's also becoming common to notify the tenant that the house has been repossessed, and they no longer have enough money to give the tenant the deposit.

Not rude at all but as it's a landlord market out there at the moment, and the law in desperate need of reform, I'd expect short shrift.

One might get further requesting escrow?

quietsailor

I rented to a lot of German and french students and to reassure their parents I would put the money in a 30 day notice account that they could see a statement any time they requested or their children could come to the bank with me and view the balance.

No-one ever asked but the option was there if they wanted

Tarzana

Eldarion wrote: »

If I had a property who had 20+ ideal candidates lined up and willing to pay 2 months deposit then why wouldn't I ask for it? It's reassuring about the tenant's financial stability if nothing else.

The position of power is with the Landlord in this situation just as it is with any other service in a capitalist based economy. Getting irate over this is madness. Voice your displeasure with your feet, but as long as there's at least 1 other candidate unwilling to do the same then your footsteps will go unheard and the landlord won't think twice about you.

Conversely if the market turns, landlords won't be able to demand this anymore.

Tarzana

the_syco wrote: »

Would it be rude asking for the landlords bank statements to ensure he has the capital to return it at the end of the tenancy, and that he's not about to go bankrupt and wash his hands of the deposit?

Some landlords ask to see tenant's bank statements, so it should be fine the other way too, IMO.

quadrifoglio verde

Tarzana wrote: »

Some landlords ask to see tenant's bank statements, so it should be fine the other way too, IMO.

In a landlords market no, in a tenants market yes. Where landlords can have 20 people wanting to rent the unit, they can be picky. When the tenant has 20 options of where he can rent than he can be picky.

murphaph

jester77 wrote: »

3 months deposit is standard here, plus 1 months rent up front and 2.6 months rent to the agent. The difference is that your deposit is put into a special account where neither the landlord or the tenant have access to without both signatures. Plus it will also earn interest while it is sitting there.

Everything except the bit in bold is correct. I rent a property out here and I do it by the book and I keep the deposit in my own account (I am the only one who can withdraw from it, tenant has nothing to do with it) BUT I must be able to provide a statement from the bank showing the accrued interest owed to the tenant. Most banks provide a special service to landlords to accomplish this. The deposits are actually all piled into one account but the bank can tell me how much interest is owed on deposit A or deposit B and I can print this off and give it to the tenant with their deposit + interest....you wanna know the bad news? The interest required by law is paltry. Currently it's a minimum of 0.2%. The crappiest savings account will still give 5 times that...

So the only advantage a German tenant has over an Irish one is 0.2% interest. There is NO deposit retention system here. No third party system like in the UK. The landlord may at his discretion agree to a joint account as mentioned by jester above but it is not compulsory by any means. Often in fact the deposit lies in an account bearing the tenant's name but with the landlord as counter signatory, but again this is at the landlord's discretion.

German source

beauf

On one side you have a 100K+ apartment and the potential of tens of thousand in damage. Probably no practical way to recover any loss. The other side 2~4K and you have the the PRTB and the courts to recover any loss.

Its important that both sides are protected, and they aren't.

makeorbrake

beauf wrote: »

On one side you have a 100K+ apartment and the potential of tens of thousand in damage. Probably no practical way to recover any loss. The other side 2~4K and you have the the PRTB and the courts to recover any loss.

Its important that both sides are protected, and they aren't.

A lot could be done to improve things.

1. Rent supplement to be taken away permanently from anyone who wrecks a house - resulting in €0,000#s worth of damage.

2. PRTB to be compelled to act rapidly for both the benefit of LL and tenant alike. If a change in the RTA is needed to tie in with this, then that too.

3. A database of all LL's and tenants - with details of all previous issues to be made available upon application of a tenant to take on a property - to be made available to LL and tenant - both.


If you had all of the above, it may well be that nobody would be bothered about bigger deposits.

beauf

The Govt won't do that because it costs them more money than it saves. Its doesn't save money because they aren't carrying the cost of problems. tenants and LL's are. Only if enough political pressure is brought to bear will they change anything.

makeorbrake

beauf wrote: »

The Govt won't do that because it costs them more money than it saves.

LL's are already paying for this - but get less than nothing for it i.e. their ongoing payments to the PRTB.

beauf wrote: »

Only if enough political pressure is brought to bear will they change anything.

At times - reading boards threads - you wouldn't think it - but both LL's and tenants need exactly the same thing - to fix all of this. Both should be lobbying hard for this to be sorted out once and for all.

Tarzana

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

In a landlords market no, in a tenants market yes. Where landlords can have 20 people wanting to rent the unit, they can be picky. When the tenant has 20 options of where he can rent than he can be picky.

Indeed. It should be fine though, landlord's market or not. Well, ideally, there should be a third party system.

Tarzana

beauf wrote: »

On one side you have a 100K+ apartment and the potential of tens of thousand in damage. Probably no practical way to recover any loss. The other side 2~4K and you have the the PRTB and the courts to recover any loss.

Its important that both sides are protected, and they aren't.

I agree. Third party idea is the way to go.

Tarzana

makeorbrake wrote: »

At times - reading boards threads - you wouldn't think it - but both LL's and tenants need exactly the same thing - to fix all of this. Both should be lobbying hard for this to be sorted out once and for all.

I would totally get behind this. In fact, I would love to start a campaign. Any pointers on how I might do that?

Bepolite

Tarzana wrote: »

I would totally get behind this. In fact, I would love to start a campaign. Any pointers on how I might do that?

Dear Mr. Blah Blah TD,

Yada, yada, blah blah, yada yada.

Yours Sincerely,

Tarzana

JustAThought

Ive been burned a number of times by tenants - leaving overnight and leaving large gas and electricity bills unpaid - damage to the property and/or items missing - and that's before you consider the lack of income for the finalinth while
You try and sort out the mess and take
Time From Work to screen possible
Tenants, clean and upgrade the place, and wait & establish where tenants are ( holidays, hospital, work assignment.. O ... Did a runner ). It's a major hassle and a Lot of expense - new keys, transfer of bills , parking permits etc,

So I now ask for the first months rent and 6 weeks deposit upfront - and tbh next time I will be asking for 2 months . The last tenant actually made over 200 marks on the freshly painted walls, scribbled on the desk & set two lit joss sticks down on the inbuilt furniture totally ruining it - not to Mention the outstanding e300 gas bill and LX bill....

Two months.. Common sense.

Tarzana

Bepolite wrote: »

Dear Mr. Blah Blah TD,

Yada, yada, blah blah, yada yada.

Yours Sincerely,

Tarzana

Oh. That's crap.

Tarzana

JustAThought wrote: »

It's a major hassle and a Lot of expense - new keys, transfer of bills , parking permits etc

How does any of this relate the previous tenant? These are costs associated with being a landlord, not something to be deducted from a deposit, hassle or not. And often the landlord has nothing to do with transfer of bills.

JustAThought wrote: »

not to Mention the outstanding e300 gas bill and LX bill....

The outstanding bill has nothing to do with you if it's not in your name. It has nothing to do with a new tenant either. They transfer the account to their name but the amount is still the responsibility of the previous account holder.

Bepolite

Tarzana wrote: »

Oh. That's crap.

Then paint yourself orange and run naked outside the Dail. What did you expect to do?

Find out who you local TD is - write them a letter - get others to do that same. If they believe its an issue that will garner them enough votes then it will get some attention. How else do you think it works?

Tarzana

Bepolite wrote: »

Then paint yourself orange and run naked outside the Dail. What did you expect to do?

What's with the tood? Jays. Wish someone more informative and less passive aggressive had responded.

visual

Tarzana wrote: »

What's with the tood? Jays. Wish someone more informative and less passive aggressive had responded.

What can you expect from those who feel entitled to exploit those less fortunate. The market has turned and with that so has greasy greedy hands

quadrifoglio verde

JustAThought wrote: »

Ive been burned a number of times by tenants - leaving overnight and leaving large gas and electricity bills unpaid - damage to the property and/or items missing - and that's before you consider the lack of income for the finalinth while
You try and sort out the mess and take
Time From Work to screen possible
Tenants, clean and upgrade the place, and wait & establish where tenants are ( holidays, hospital, work assignment.. O ... Did a runner ). It's a major hassle and a Lot of expense - new keys, transfer of bills , parking permits etc,

So I now ask for the first months rent and 6 weeks deposit upfront - and tbh next time I will be asking for 2 months . The last tenant actually made over 200 marks on the freshly painted walls, scribbled on the desk & set two lit joss sticks down on the inbuilt furniture totally ruining it - not to Mention the outstanding e300 gas bill and LX bill....

Two months.. Common sense.

Surely your not liable for a bill ran up in someone else's name...

The_Conductor

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Surely your not liable for a bill ran up in someone else's name...

Try transferring the account back into your own name- when there is an outstanding balance against it. The course of least resistance- if you want to let the place out in an expeditious manner- is for the landlord to accept the bill, clear it, and put it down to experience (hopefully they have a deposit to take it from- however, if the tenant is doing a legger they probably won't have paid the rent in a while either- so you're damned one way or the other.......)

davo10

visual wrote: »

What can you expect from those who feel entitled to exploit those less fortunate. The market has turned and with that so has greasy greedy hands

The market may have turned for property owners but it's still the same for those who take advantage of our messed up tenancy laws. Again, the increase in deposit is in response to the frequency with which tenants with hold rent, damage properties, don't give notice etc. If tenants abide by lease agreement, they have an avenue to pursue the LL, LLs don't have that luxury. Therefore the only option is further insulation against losses.

No exploitation, if you don't like it, don't pay it, rent somewhere else, no harm done.

I should say as well that if you are one of "those less fortunate" who cannot afford a second months deposit, then you have no "wriggle room" to pay rent if some other unforeseen expense comes up.

beauf

Tarzana wrote: »

I would totally get behind this. In fact, I would love to start a campaign. Any pointers on how I might do that?

I think you'd need to gather data to support your objective. So a comparison and analysis of systems in other countries. Then lobby politicians and vested interests with the data. Too many on the boards acc & prop forum don't seem to be able to look at things analytically. people are too bitter from their experiences I assume.

murphaph

visual wrote: »

What can you expect from those who feel entitled to exploit those less fortunate. The market has turned and with that so has greasy greedy hands

Are tenants who request rent decreases in bad times also greedy?

Tarzana

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Surely your not liable for a bill ran up in someone else's name...

My thoughts too. The previous tenant in the place I'm currently in didn't pay his last electric bill. I transferred the account to my name but the outstanding amount has nothing to do with me, it's a separate thing. Seriously, wasn't even mentioned by my provider, and the bills received so far have reflected the readings I submitted.

Tarzana

davo10 wrote: »

I should say as well that if you are one of "those less fortunate" who cannot afford a second months deposit, then you have no "wriggle room" to pay rent if some other unforeseen expense comes up.

Well, that is the reality for many people in the country today, little to no wiggle room. Those people still need a roof over their heads.

Tarzana

beauf wrote: »

I think you'd need to gather data to support your objective. So a comparison and analysis of systems in other countries. Then lobby politicians and vested interests with the data. Too many on the boards acc & prop forum don't seem to be able to look at things analytically. people are too bitter from their experiences I assume.

Thank you.

davo10

Tarzana wrote: »

Well, that is the reality for many people in the country today, little to no wiggle room. Those people still need a roof over their heads.

But it is not the responsibility of LL to provide that roof over their head. The LL puts the property up for rent, informs the perspective tenants of the T&Cs and they then they decide to take it or not, the LL is not "required" to rent it to anyone, anymore than any person is "required" to rent it. You are free to choose.

Tarzana

davo10 wrote: »

But it is not the responsibility of LL to provide that roof over their head.

Obviously not. We know, we know.

Just pointing out that, yeah, lots of people have very little wiggle room these days.

murphaph

Tarzana wrote: »

Obviously not. We know, we know.

Just pointing out that, yeah, lots of people have very little wiggle room these days.

Including many landlords I'm sure you'll agree.

Tarzana

murphaph wrote: »

Including many landlords I'm sure you'll agree.

Well then those landlords should be more empathetic and understanding of the fact that two month's deposit money is too much for many people, no? If there was a third party system, people might be more amenable to scraping together the money. As it stands now, it's a huge risk handing that much over to landlords, when money is so tight for many. And yes, landlords have their pick of tenants but I'd personally rather live in a dump or far out of the city than hand over that much in the current system. I realise landlords couldn't give a crap and I totally accept that. I'd tend to with the poster who said earlier in the thread that it's not as common as LLs are making out on this thread though. I have yet to come across it, and I recently found high quality accommodation in the competitive Dublin market.

Bepolite

visual wrote: »

What can you expect from those who feel entitled to exploit those less fortunate. The market has turned and with that so has greasy greedy hands

If you're referring to me I'm not sure why you feel I'm exploitative? I'm putting a deposit in an interest bearing account and returning every penny to a good tenant that pays the rent and doesn't damage my property. As for being less fortunate come off it - if you can afford to rent in central Dublin you're not poor.

I'm all for a properly regulated credit rating system and escrow. The problem is this would mean a large number of people would be forced on to social housing lists after they screw their landlords and wound up with no one willing to rent to them.

Bepolite

Tarzana wrote: »

What's with the tood? Jays. Wish someone more informative and less passive aggressive had responded.

I do apologise. Sometimes I get annoyed when I have to explain what I perceive to be the bleedin' obvious. I consider myself to be of only average intelligence but perhaps I am wrong in that regard. My frustration stems from the sheer amount of wasted effort on places like boards, Joe Duffy etc when people could actually be doing something about it.

What I would suggest is a letter campaign to your local TD, why not start a thread here, subject to moderator approval, gather some of the best policies from other countries, suggest a solution and use this site to get people to join your cause. You could use other social media such as Facebook and you could also get out and about and knock on doors in your local area where you know there are a lot of renters.

One way to make your argument much stronger would be to get buy in from landlords, suggesting something that was acceptable to them also. This would certainly then be something you might get some support from housing groups like Threshold. All of this would build pressure in both directions to ultimately what politicians care about - votes. A policy that wins votes is good, backed up with a possibility of losing them even better.

Bepolite

Guaranteed not to go pink in the can.

beauf

I have no idea what that means.

beauf

Tarzana wrote: »

Well then those landlords should be more empathetic and understanding of the fact that two month's deposit money is too much for many people, no? If there was a third party system, people might be more amenable to scraping together the money. As it stands now, it's a huge risk handing that much over to landlords, when money is so tight for many. And yes, landlords have their pick of tenants but I'd personally rather live in a dump or far out of the city than hand over that much in the current system. I realise landlords couldn't give a crap and I totally accept that. I'd tend to with the poster who said earlier in the thread that it's not as common as LLs are making out on this thread though. I have yet to come across it, and I recently found high quality accommodation in the competitive Dublin market.

I think you are missing the point slightly. Why should LL have to bear the cost of someone else damage. If people caused hundreds if not thousands of damage to a hire car, they wouldn't expect the hire company to pay for it.

murphaph

On the point of hire cars...you generally pay at least a 1 grand deposit on a car that might cost 20 grand a house or flat costs many multiples of that....

makeorbrake

murphaph wrote: »

On the point of hire cars...you generally pay at least a 1 grand deposit on a car that might cost 20 grand a house or flat costs many multiples of that....

It's an excellent analogy. If you put the faintest of dents in a hire car, you will pay. If you return it filthy, you'll pay a cleaning/valet fee.

When it comes to a property, regrettably the same doesn't apply.

anothernight

Bepolite wrote: »

why not start a thread here, subject to moderator approval, gather some of the best policies from other countries, suggest a solution and use this site to get people to join your cause.

While I think this is a great idea, I do wonder whether the people in this forum would ever be able to agree on housing policy. Too many threads where people consider it acceptable to not pay their rent because they want a decrease, or think that the garden should be looked after by the landlord (I bet they'd ask for their dishes to be done too, if they could :rolleyes:). I'm sure we also have those landlords that put up places barely fit to live in, even if they're not as vocal in this particular forum.

If you think there is a chance for agreement, and that people might actually contact their relevant TDs at some stage, it would be good to ask a moderator for their blessing in having a decent thread for that type of discussion.
Great things have been done through boards.ie before.

In my opinion, the single thing that would make the biggest difference would be a compulsory escrow system for rent deposits. It would stop renters from doing a runner without paying the last month's rent, and landlords from stealing the deposit without appropriate justification. Much less likely for the tenants to destroy the property if they know they'll have to pay for at least some of the repairs, even if most of the time the deposit covers only a fraction of the repair costs.

beauf

How about renters insurance like car insurance. The LL could claim off this for damages. The tenants have the PRTB.

makeorbrake

anothernight wrote: »

While I think this is a great idea, I do wonder whether the people in this forum would ever be able to agree on housing policy.

There's no way in the world that those looking at it from the two main perspectives (i.e. LL's view and tenants view) would agree on all things. Notwithstanding that, there have definitely been a few things that most people on here seem to agree on.

The first one being that the PRTB does not function effectively. Whether that's a result of the underlying legislation or that quango itself or both - this needs to be addressed. Whether a complaint is put forward by LL or tenant, that complaint needs to be dealt with in a timely manner.

With regard to escrow, I don't think either side would have an issue with this - but there is absolutely no point in going there without the PRTB being restructured into an effective organisation. Furthermore, there is the danger that others might pick this up and run with it - with the motivation of turning this into a revenue raising exercise.

With regard to rent supplement, surely there has to be a point where someone who wrecks a house is simply cut off from rent supplement/rehousing at the tax payers expense? This to me - and I'm open to correction - is a no brainer.

With regard to rent supplement, the tenancy should be made between LL and the hse/local authority directly - not with their 'customer'.

There is probably scope for more common ground - but those four above would be fundamental. If only those were achieved, it could change the housing landscape completely for landlord and tenant alike.

Greenmachine

Wouldn't pay in Dublin. It is far from the norm. It is however more common in Scandinavia to pay two months deposit for a unfurnished apartment. They tend to be bigger too with better transport links.

beauf

They'd need to be good to commute from Scandinavia