Water metering to begin in Waterford on Monday

allthedoyles

allthedoyles wrote: »

Water meter and pay by usage is generally accepted , but there are two separate charges here :
1 . water
2. waste water
If you avail of the waste water service , then the charge for water usage is doubled .
Not very fair in my opinion.

By the way , The installers do a very tidy and professional job , and ye will find minimal interruption to your lives .

I believe it's halved, not doubled.
eg A rate of €4.88 per 1,000 litres for households that use both water services and wastewater services (€2.44 per 1,000 litres if you only use one service)

delahuntv

O Riain wrote: »

I think generally in other countries people are happier to pay a bit more tax when they have a good health service, an active and visible police force, a decent public transport system and good government funded community projects.

Give me one of these things and I would be happy to pay more taxes, as it stands our money will be going to pay off bank debt. Not very cool.

The funny thing is Norway always gets mentioned as the "perfect" country. High taxes, ridiculously high crime rates and whilst a good heath system, its certainly not perfect.

You will ALWAYS hear about the problems in every health service - but considering the number that go though the systems its tiny.

Same with water - everyone took it for granted. Clean water at the turn of the tap, waste water disapears with a flush.

But we always want clean water and we want clean beaches too and we want we want we want, but to pay for it? No we don't want to be doing that.

Sorry - but if you don't pay it gets attached to the house. When the house s eventually sold, (which most are at some stage) the bills and interest are paid.

delahuntv

shinzon wrote: »

The government have already lied about the average cost of water to the consumer which by the way is one of if not the highest in Europe.

Shin

no-one knows the average cost yet as charges haven't started. Its guesstimates only.

As fro the infamous "highest in europe" quote by SVdP no journaist read / quoted the full quote

"If the governement stopped paying subsidies and the full cost of supplying water was charged to the households, Ireland would have one of the highest water charges in Europe"

Thing is, a certain amount of subsidy will always apply, so the basis for that quote doesn't exist.

Sure if we all had to pay for the full cost of hospital care after we have an accident and have to be taken by ambulance and required surgery, I'm sure you could quote the same phrase - just switch water with health!

flutered

emo72 wrote: »

this is a semi state business, they cant just take your money. the property tax is collected by revenue and they have way more powers. hell irish water cant even cut you off if you never pay.

its a totally different scenario to property tax. dont be fearful.

the little grey maneen howlin is trying to set up a national debt collection agency, with the powers of revenue, never underestimate a small wee evil vindictive maneen.

flutered

delahuntv wrote: »

no-one knows the average cost yet as charges haven't started. Its guesstimates only.

As fro the infamous "highest in europe" quote by SVdP no journaist read / quoted the full quote

"If the governement stopped paying subsidies and the full cost of supplying water was charged to the households, Ireland would have one of the highest water charges in Europe"

Thing is, a certain amount of subsidy will always apply, so the basis for that quote doesn't exist.

Sure if we all had to pay for the full cost of hospital care after we have an accident and have to be taken by ambulance and required surgery, I'm sure you could quote the same phrase - just switch water with health!

back in the the there was a rainbow goverment, they set about bringing in water rates, this move was fought tooth and nail, howlin who was the minister responsible, got rrid of the water rates as a sop to labours core voters, he then replaced it with an increase in car tax to give the co.councils more income to pay for the water.

flutered

delahuntv wrote: »

The funny thing is Norway always gets mentioned as the "perfect" country. High taxes, ridiculously high crime rates and whilst a good heath system, its certainly not perfect.

You will ALWAYS hear about the problems in every health service - but considering the number that go though the systems its tiny.

Same with water - everyone took it for granted. Clean water at the turn of the tap, waste water disapears with a flush.

But we always want clean water and we want clean beaches too and we want we want we want, but to pay for it? No we don't want to be doing that.

Sorry - but if you don't pay it gets attached to the house. When the house s eventually sold, (which most are at some stage) the bills and interest are paid.

what happens all the houses purchased with key money.

allthedoyles

Deleted User wrote: »

I believe it's halved, not doubled.
eg A rate of €4.88 per 1,000 litres for households that use both water services and wastewater services (€2.44 per 1,000 litres if you only use one service)

If you use both services , you pay double your water meter usage .

Twist that whatever way you like .

allthedoyles

allthedoyles wrote: »

If you use both services , you pay double your water meter usage .
Twist that whatever way you like .

Sorry, I thought you meant twice the €4.88. However, if you have your own well or septic tank, they come with maintenance costs, which can run to hundreds of Euro as it is. At least €100 a time to empty septic tank and this needs to be done at least once a year. Wells have to be cleaned and need a pump to work. This in itself has running costs.

200motels

I for one will not pay for water.

barneystinson

200motels wrote: »

I for one will not pay for water.

No bother, everyone else will pay for you so...

You'll be a sponge!

200motels

200motels wrote: »

I for one will not pay for water.

No bother. I'm sure you'll manage quiet well on the trickle you'll be getting.

Sully

Sadly, the level of debate on the subject of Irish Water has been shockingly poor and very much 'face palm' moments. It's the same nonsense each time.

- Water is currently free, why should I pay?
- Water is already covered for in taxation, why should I pay double?
- We get loads of rain compared with other countries which have Water rates, why should I pay for something freely available?
- It's only there to service debts and nothing will be used to pay for the water services.
- Can't Pay. Won't Pay.
- It's a private business.
- It's going to be sold.
- That Denis O'Brien fella is involved. Don't like him, won't be paying.

There appears to be very little genuine debate on the pros and cons, why exactly we need to pay for water and what the benefits (if any) it will bring us. It just descends into a political farce or people with no knowledge on the subject shouting and roaring.

Yes we get BUCKET loads of water whereas Spain gets sweet feck all compared to Ireland. But that's not what comes out of your taps and into your toilet, out of your taps and showers. All that lovely water gets processed in treatment plants to make it (subject to separate debates depending on viewpoint and your location) safe. Waste water is perfectly clean. We flush litres of clean water down the loo every single day. All that water goes into a treatment plant too and is processed before finally being disposed off. All this treatment costs the state money. All those pipes that go all around the country, down streets, into estates and so on all cost money. Unlike rainwater which we get bucket loads of and for free - pipes, equipment and treatment plants cost the state millions each year.

We do already pay for water along with everything else in the form of general taxation. But it's never been enough and the previous administration didn't bother doing anything about it. The general taxation goes into the big bucket that goes into the general running of the state. That's paying for the public service, the buildings the public service use, the various equipment and materials the public service use and likewise for the civil service. It pays for roads, footpaths, social welfare, grants, state bodies, and so so much more. That's why a country needs taxation.

Water Charges have been on the cards for YEARS. Fianna Fail proposed it BEFORE we ended up effectively being bankrupt. Businesses already pay for water (either via a meter or fixed charge) and many residents in rural Ireland pay some form of water charges to private businesses. Besides that, it was in the Fine Gael program for government and for those who didn't read it Labour put up hundreds of signs warning people about it! They said it in many debates too on radio & TV, just in case you didn't spot the signs or read the papers. Putting that aside, it was also in the EU/IMF agreement that Fianna Fail prepared.

I can see why people would be sceptical about where the charges go but there has been a commitment that the charges will be ring-fenced and invested into Irish Water and all that goes along with it. We can only hope that the current and future administrations agree and stick to that. If we are seeing lack of investment and the funds going elsewhere, the country should rightly be up in arms. I'm in favour, personally, of the charges on the condition we see an immediate investment into our water network and people get decent drinkable water.

Irish Water is owned by Board Gais. It's a state-owned company. People are misleading when they talk about this. Various bodies we deal with on a daily basis are state-owned. But it suits to point out the fact as if it's horror when it's completely normal and has been for years. I'd say what will more than likely happen is, in the future under some government, it will be opened up just like Electricity, Gas, Telephone & Broadband. To prevent a monopoly and to bring in competition in the market. Many people are happy to use Energia instead of Electric Ireland, Vodafone instead of ESB, and so on. That's what could potentially happen in years to come. As for the suggestion the state have zero control over Irish Water and completely sell it off, well I really can't see how that would work and it makes little sense.

Denis O'Brien owns Siteserv. Not Irish Water. The connection? The installation of water meters. Interesting fact. Sierra Support Services is owned by Siteserv. Guess what? Sierra install UPC & Sky. So those thousands of people who have Sky or UPC are technically supporting Denis O'Brien. Some of the protesters even work for them. Denis owns Topaz too btw and has strong connections with the FAI and the salary our current and past managers of the national team get. He is a clever businessman, no doubt, and makes his fair share in business dealings.

The_Shotz

One important point you didn't cover there sully was the "can't pay won't pay"

I know for me personally this extra charge could be the one which pushes me over the edge which would make me miss my mortgage payments.

Currently I'm lucky in the sense I have kept employment during the recession although I am on a 60% wage cut due to loss of hours.

I also never got to live the high life in the "good days" as I was never on a high wage, so I am not carrying the debt of the good times with me.

I'm lucky in the sense the only loan I have is a mortgage and domestic bills but at that I'm stretched. As I've previously said I can't see where I'm going to get the money for water.

The timing of water charges is wrong, it's just to much, I am against water charges in fear of privatisation but my main reason is with been able to afford it or not.

I'm sure there's worse people off then me and the question for me/them is either fall behind on the repayments of the mortgage or pay for water.

My protest against Irish water will be that I can't pay and I will not allow a meter to be installed as I have no contract with the company.

It would be hoped that the water charges, Property tax, etc would spread the load more evenly. I feel for those like The Shotz, who are only just hanging on. Also the newly unemployed who are not entitled to as much as those long term unemployed, who get every assistance going. I would only say to them "Hang on in there". There are signs of improvement. Having survived the bad times of the 80's, I firmly believe that things will get better. Hopefully we won't get caught up in another Celtic Tiger, but learn to plan better for all our futures.

Sully

The_Shotz wrote: »

One important point you didn't cover there sully was the "can't pay won't pay"

I know for me personally this extra charge could be the one which pushes me over the edge which would make me miss my mortgage payments.

Currently I'm lucky in the sense I have kept employment during the recession although I am on a 60% wage cut due to loss of hours.

I also never got to live the high life in the "good days" as I was never on a high wage, so I am not carrying the debt of the good times with me.

I'm lucky in the sense the only loan I have is a mortgage and domestic bills but at that I'm stretched. As I've previously said I can't see where I'm going to get the money for water.

The timing of water charges is wrong, it's just to much, I am against water charges in fear of privatisation but my main reason is with been able to afford it or not.

I'm sure there's worse people off then me and the question for me/them is either fall behind on the repayments of the mortgage or pay for water.

My protest against Irish water will be that I can't pay and I will not allow a meter to be installed as I have no contract with the company.

Well the 'Can't Pay, Won't Pay' slogan was thrown around about the Property Tax. Protesters insisted the majority wouldn't pay. They had loads of talks, protests, press releases and postings online. The compliance rate is 94%. Very few refused point blank to pay until it was taken from them by revenue. Which surprised me, because it's one tax I fear will be abused by governments. In theory, it sounds great. But was now the right time to even bring it in? I'm not convinced.

There are people who genuinely cannot pay, and I believe there are schemes in place to help these people on low incomes and those who need to pay in instalments.

The whole 'No Contract' is silly. You're paying for water as it is and you don't have a contract. If you want contracts brought in (which won't happen until there are other players in the market and it then becomes needed), than you have a right to choose whether you want to pay for water or not. If not, then your supply can be disabled. With Electricity, hey, if you don't want to pay than that's fine your supply will simply be cut off - completely. Same with phone and broadband. You have this choice now - don't pay and the pressure will be turned down.

People are blocking meters as if the meters are a requirement to be billed. You will get a bill with or without a meter but you won't ever know if you are being overbilled unless you get a meter. So really, you're shooting yourself in the foot blocking meters. But the vast majority are not blocking meters anyway, it's generally the same pockets floating around 'representing' the residents. The residents don't all go out - some do, most don't.

The_Shotz

If you don't allow a meter to be installed, I really can't see how they can turn off/reduce your water to a trickle, as there is nothing to stop you going out and opening the on/off valve and allowing water to flow again?

I quiet simply have enough, I feel I have paid more then my fair share for the gamble taken by so many banks/builders during the Celtic tiger.

As I have said it's another bill which I currently can not afford!

I presume water is not classed as an amenity, if it is, should it not be covered by the household charge?

barneystinson

The_Shotz wrote: »

I presume water is not classed as an amenity, if it is, should it not be covered by the household charge?

I'd have thought its a utility?

Sully

The_Shotz wrote: »

If you don't allow a meter to be installed, I really can't see how they can turn off/reduce your water to a trickle, as there is nothing to stop you going out and opening the on/off valve and allowing water to flow again?

Yeah not sure on that one, unless it's somehow locked and you can't interfere but than what happens in the event of a burst pipe or maintenance?

I quiet simply have enough, I feel I have paid more then my fair share for the gamble taken by so many banks/builders during the Celtic tiger.

As I have said it's another bill which I currently can not afford!

I presume water is not classed as an amenity, if it is, should it not be covered by the household charge?

Well, as I mentioned, it's a charge / tax that's been on the cards well before the bailout. So well before the bankers forced us to take out large loans and mortgages that we realistically couldn't afford and the state splashed the cash in all the wrong places and focused more on the building boom for income than anywhere else we have been talking about water charges.

We can widely accept that the infrastructure and quality of water is lacking. I suppose we could ignore it and let it get worse. Or we could catch the bull by the horn and start to address it.

The property tax isn't enough to cover water and local amenities. But other countries have the taxes bundled under the one name and much higher (the cost of water itself is much higher, even in the UK where they get as much rain as we do!).

Cabaal

The_Shotz wrote: »

If you don't allow a meter to be installed, I really can't see how they can turn off/reduce your water to a trickle, as there is nothing to stop you going out and opening the on/off valve and allowing water to flow again?

Obviously it may not apply to Ireland,
But I saw a documentary about a English Water company where they cut off a business due to non-payment of water bills.

- They went out and turned off the water, the business turned it back on.
- They turned it off and back filled the manhole with gravel, the business removed the gravel and turned it back on.
- They turned off the water, removed the ability to turned it on again and filled the manhole with cement. That stopped the business doing anything further.

Now in fairness this was a extreme case, the business had been running for 5-6 years without paying and they had also circumvented the meter in order to go undetected.

Very simply I suppose in theory Irish water could reduce down the pressure and then cement the manhole if they wanted to stop the customer turning it back to full.

The_Shotz

The_Shotz wrote: »

If you don't allow a meter to be installed, I really can't see how they can turn off/reduce your water to a trickle, as there is nothing to stop you going out and opening the on/off valve and allowing water to flow again?

Just went out and had a look at what was installed outside our house. There are 2 things. I'd assume one in our stopcock that we can turn on and off ourselves and the other can only be opened by them? I didn't try to open them, as it's bucketing rain!

The_Shotz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just went out and had a look at what was installed outside our house. There are 2 things. I'd assume one in our stopcock that we can turn on and off ourselves and the other can only be opened by them? I didn't try to open them, as it's bucketing rain!

Yep that's them, the on/off valve and the other part is where the meter fits on. I presume if a meter is fitted they can adjust the water via the meter. If no meter is fitted it appears people can turn it on and off themselves.

Road-Hog

Does anyone have a copy of the letter that they received. Would like to see exactly what it said, name of contractor time frame for work etc

I know there is a large contract going on around Town at the minute relating to water main replacement rather than fitting of water meters. The letter could be something to do with this project

Sully

Road-Hog wrote: »

Does anyone have a copy of the letter that they received. Would like to see exactly what it said, name of contractor time frame for work etc

It's just a flyer with an estimated date. No specific times or specific days.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ritcg6wwdoyke6t/image.jpg

The other work Irish Water have been doing has been ongoing since before the election, if I am not mistaken. They did some work out in Tramore too. The work doesn't appear to impact houses so I assume it's unrelated.

allthedoyles

Deleted User wrote: »

I believe it's halved, not doubled.
eg A rate of €4.88 per 1,000 litres for households that use both water services and wastewater services (€2.44 per 1,000 litres if you only use one service)

Is there any other country in the world that charges exactly the same price per litre , for clean fresh water , and dirty waste water .

Road-Hog

What would be nice to know and there has been very little mentioned about it is how will those who have not hAd a meter fitted by say October this year be billed.........an estimate based on number of people residing in such houses?or just some sort of flat charge as we had with household charge. If what I have read is correct it could be up to two years before phase one of the metering project is complete. So some households may not get a proper metered bill for 12 to 18 months. Can anyone enlighten me.

Sully

Road-Hog wrote: »

What would be nice to know and there has been very little mentioned about it is how will those who have not hAd a meter fitted by say October this year be billed.........an estimate based on number of people residing in such houses?or just some sort of flat charge as we had with household charge. If what I have read is correct it could be up to two years before phase one of the metering project is complete. So some households may not get a proper metered bill for 12 to 18 months. Can anyone enlighten me.

Flat rate. Same way businesses can get it.

barneystinson

allthedoyles wrote: »

Is there any other country in the world that charges exactly the same price per litre , for clean fresh water , and dirty waste water .

But sure the water coming in and being used for flushing the toilet and bathing, is the same mains water that you drink...

The Bowling Alley

Doesn't seem right that the people whose appliances and pipes are being destroyed by the limescale in their water will now have to pay for that unfortunate privilege.

Cabaal

The Bowling Alley wrote: »

Doesn't seem right that the people whose appliances and pipes are being destroyed by the limescale in their water will now have to pay for that unfortunate privilege.

Its naturally occurring though,
As we've seen, if the gov start adding things to water "some" people get upset and paranoid.

The Bowling Alley

Cabaal wrote: »

Its naturally occurring though,
As we've seen, if the gov start adding things to water "some" people get upset and paranoid.

Acid Rain is also naturally occurring. I don't you'd like that coming out of your shower though. And then having to pay for it.