Why are Gaelic Games so middle class??

freddiek

watching a LOI soccer match i got to thinking about the contrast between soccer players in Ireland and those who play gaelic football/hurling.

it seems these days nearly every inter-county player has a university degree and/or a professional-type job. Why should that be the case for gaelic games when its clearly not the case for soccer players??

I never thought that gaelic games were class-based sports before but perhaps the trend has gone that way over the years. certainly not to the extent that Rugby is but i'd wager that most inter-county players come from solidly middle class backgrounds.

people from a soccer background may have traditionally looked on gaelic games as sports for teachers, gardai and farmers etc. but I certainly don't see much working class people playing our games these days. definitely not at the Inter-county level

people from large towns and obviously cities are under-represented on County teams. this is not just because of the Games being traditionally grounded in rural areas but also I believe failure to get more working-class kids involved.

IanOBo

The British Army had barracks in all the big towns, which meant they brought Rugby and Soccer in to these urban areas. Look at Limerick. There was a big barracks in the city, which is mad into soccer and more obviously, rugby. There are rugby and soccer teams around every corner in the city, while there are very few GAA clubs. This is in contrast to the suburbs and the county. The whole thing is historical.

Dirty Dingus McGee

What is middle class?

Should GAA players not bother getting an education for themselves in order to have enough so called working class players?

The reason soccer is played widely in urban areas (world wide not just in ireland) is because you don't need much outdoor space to play it.You need space to play gaelic games properly.

Of all the sh1te topics on this website I have to say this is right up there with them

moc moc a moc

The lower classes are too busy with Dutch Gold and heroin to have time for sports.

savannahkat

Middle class, that's a few step up from the gurriers I played with and against. Class is something you had to attend if you ever went to school, after that we had about as much class as a pig wearing a tux.

Pat Mustard

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The reason soccer is played widely in urban areas (world wide not just in ireland) is because you don't need much outdoor space to play it.You need space to play gaelic games properly.

Not disagreeing with you absolutely, but I have been told that back in the 1950s and 1960s, fellas used to play hurling in certain urban schoolyards that spawned manys the successful intercounty hurler.

I'd accept that soccer can be more easily played with less space than Gaelic football.

But overall, I'm unsure if it is correct to say that soccer would be more prevalent in urban areas due to space alone.

Gaelic football definitely needs more space to play, but does hurling?

Any key?

i'm not sure its defo a class thing.
In my college which was quite into gaelic sports the lads who were very good were given a real leg up, helped get jobs, allowed miss assessments etc for games, dunno if there were scholarships but wouldn't be sirprised. So I do think the GAA try to give a helping hand to potential future players.
On the other hand a lad near me who plays for a team in league of Ireland now shipped off to England at 16 to train with a youth team so I amn't sure school and 3rd level would have been a huge focus.
Also it is important to remember thay GAA is amateur and the players need a set of skills/education to gain job and before doors do tend to open....

marathont

At club level, in my experience anyway, you could not say GAA players are mostly middle class. Players come from all classes. In fact most players in my area would be from working class families.

When it comes to Inter county players, If a player is dedicated enough to make it as an inter-county player, maybe the same traits are applied to the players education and career. Hence, a lot of Inter county players have degrees etc.

Dirty Dingus McGee

The Mustard wrote: »

Not disagreeing with you absolutely, but I have been told that back in the 1950s and 1960s, fellas used to play hurling in certain urban schoolyards that spawned manys the successful intercounty hurler.

I'd accept that soccer can be more easily played with less space than Gaelic football.

But overall, I'm unsure if it is correct to say that soccer would be more prevalent in urban areas due to space alone.

Gaelic football definitely needs more space to play, but does hurling?

Maybe your right with hurling, belting the ball against the side of a wall can be enjoyable but I'd argue overall both football and hurling require space to be played and enjoyed properly , gaelic football can only really be enjoyed fully when you play in a big space.When I lived on an estate when i was younger I hardly ever played GAA with my friends it was always soccer even though I much preferred football and hurling.

Maybe the GAA should be doing more to promote both codes in certain urban areas but the game being played in urban areas has very little to do with so called middle class/working class divide which the original poster raised.

marco_polo

I think much of it is simply that rich or poor kids tend to hang out together regardless in rural areas where GAA is most popular, you are from where you are from so there really a whole lot of the class ****e that you get in urban areas. Sure you'd have a fierce lonely childhood if you had any notions about yourself.

A large factor too would have to be the ncreased iprestige of the Sigerson/Fitzgibbion cups in the recent past, which would probably attract a fair few talented minor/U21 stars who may not have bothered going to college without the lure of those competitions.

nice_guy80

Very little working class people in rural Ireland where most GAA is played, simple as.
Most GAA families in Dublin have origins down the country.

marco_polo

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Very little working class people in rural Ireland where most GAA is played, simple as.
Most GAA families in Dublin have origins down the country.

I'd guess as well there is a bit more income equality down the country, sure you have those that are quite well off and those that don't have much. But you probably don't have quite so much of the extremes of poverty and wealth in your average rural parish or small villlage in my experience at least.

Dirty Dingus McGee

I sort of struggled to work out what working and middle class were but this piece on youtube is quite helpful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXZ52-XgUjA

Syferus

Ridiculious idea for a thread. If soccer players decide not to take advantage of some of the most affordable third-level education on the planet it doesn't make gaelic players middle class. It's an avenue open to everyone with enough sense to take it.

And to anyone who thinks it has to do with third level football and hurling - it gives a select few scholarships to college but the majority have to pay their way like everyone else, do well on their Leaving Cert and by no means will an interest in sport make anyone who isn't serious about their degree complete it.

Edit: I just noticed who the OP is. Hrmm.

marco_polo

Syferus wrote: »

Ridiculious idea for a thread. If soccer players decide not to take advantage of some of the most affordable third-level education on the planet it doesn't make gaelic players middle class. It's an avenue open to everyone with enough sense to take it.

And to anyone who thinks it has to do with third level football and hurling - it gives avert select few scholarships to college but the majority have to pay their way like everyone else and do well on their Leaving Cert and by no means will it make anyone who isn't serious about their degree complete it.

Edit: I just noticed who the OP is. Hrmm.

I wasn't suggesting they don't pay there way BTW, just that it would be another plus factor in there decision about whether to attend third level or not.

Fr Tod Umptious

On the thing about the university education.
I think it has to do with the fact that a lot of people from "the country" go to university anyway because there is little employment opportunities locally straight out of school.

And nowadays you have a variety of scholarships available and far more courses in sports science/leisure/health and fitness etc that attract these guys.

I've noticed over the last few years that the Siggerson and Fitzgibbon cup have become far more high profile

secman

Growing up in Dublin we played football in the school yard and someone had to keep sketch... if one of the brothers came into the yard we picked the ball up and pretended to play gaa , the fckers would use the strap on you for playing football, the ban was in then... hated gaa because of it.. still only have a passing interest in gaa, much prefer football.

Orizio

Class isn't anywhere near as pronounced in the countryside. Its far more dependent on the area, some parts of the countryside are closer to the middle class bracket due either to the quality of the land or tourism or commute potential (parts of West and East Cork come to mind), while other areas are just poor with little to no potential for work. Its one of the reasons hurling is popular in some parts of the country, and not popular in other parts - its popularity generally followed the quality of the land.

keane2097

"Class" :rolleyes:

Great to have freddie back again with his genuine questions and issues for us GAA people.

Mackas_view

secman wrote: »

Growing up in Dublin we played football in the school yard and someone had to keep sketch... if one of the brothers came into the yard we picked the ball up and pretended to play gaa , the fckers would use the strap on you for playing football, the ban was in then... hated gaa because of it.. still only have a passing interest in gaa, much prefer football.

Football?? Sure that is GAA. Oh you mean SOCCER.

CatFromHue

I'd have thought the amateur pro/semi pro aspect of each sport would play a factor in going to uni.

The GAA lads know they need to get a good job.

The Soccer lads will be trying to go fully pro and may not be focusing in uni at all, especially if they've gone over to England as a teenager. Niall Quinn was pretty interesting when he was on Second Captains and you could see the problem he had with soccer in that it was all or largely nothing for their apprentices. If they didn't get a pro contract they left in an abyss when people of their age would have a school or college education they'd nothing or very little to compare.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

The small farmers, labourers and unemployed who play with rural clubs back in Mayo would certainly be surprised to learn they were playing a middle class game.

Santa Cruz

Erins Isle Finglas, Clanna Gael Ringsend/Irishtown O Tooles, Ballymun Kickhams etc. etc. Not exactly centres of middle class

CatFromHue

I think the OP was talking about inter county players and not club

Dirty Dingus McGee

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think the OP was talking about inter county players and not club

Ballymun Kickhams have a fair few players on the Dublin football teams. O'Tooles always seems to have a fair few on the hurling teams as well.

freddiek

why is there never any trouble between the fans not like in the working-class soccer eh?

freddiek

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Ballymun Kickhams have a fair few players on the Dublin football teams. O'Tooles always seems to have a fair few on the hurling teams as well.

hese players are hardly from the Flats now.

the rural areas around Fingal more like. sure Dean Rock is from out on the Meath border.

WeHaveToGoBack

I dont think its a case of middle class people becoming GAA players; it's the other way around.

Once a player gets well known, or on the county panel; they get scholarships to college, and then, no matter who theyre up against, get jobs over other people. This is particularly noticeable in teaching I find.

Will I Amnt

freddiek wrote: »

why is there never any trouble between the fans not like in the working-class soccer eh?

So are you trying to say the fans are middle class too?
Irish soccer isn't rife with trouble either. Take out Bohs v Rovers and it's almost zero.

freddiek

Will I Amnt wrote: »

So are you trying to say the fans are middle class too?
Irish soccer isn't rife with trouble either. Take out Bohs v Rovers and it's almost zero.

yeah i'd say most fans are middle class. seems quite obvious. easier for them to afford the tickets for one thing.

randd1

So inter county players getting degrees makes the GAA middle class? Here was me thinking that they were getting an education.

And if they do get help to go to college, maybe it's because the GAA see the value of promoting a culture of sending players to college to get an education as it's more likely to keep them at home to stay part of the organization than lose them altogether. Would the FAI ever do that? Can't blame an amateur organization for helping out its players.

freddiek

randd1 wrote: »

So inter county players getting degrees makes the GAA middle class? Here was me thinking that they were getting an education.

And if they do get help to go to college, maybe it's because the GAA see the value of promoting a culture of sending players to college to get an education as it's more likely to keep them at home to stay part of the organization than lose them altogether. Would the FAI ever do that? Can't blame an amateur organization for helping out its players.

the other way round. They get the degrees because they are middle class. is it a shock to you that better-off people get more of an education than working class lads?

mollymaloney

I think that all sorts of people play at club level-- from varying backgrounds. Most I would reckon begin at primary school. However, if a person graduates to senior inter county, a huge dedication in time and committment is involved. It would be difficult to see how a plasterer,, farmer, guy on a bin lorry could get the time to go training three times a week, spend the winter's evenings in the gym and play a challenge match on Sunday morning,. I don't think we'll ever see a Noel Hickey or a Bobby Ryan play inter county again. That might be part of the reason why so many county players now are teachers, sales people etc

kksaints

randd1 wrote: »

So inter county players getting degrees makes the GAA middle class? Here was me thinking that they were getting an education.

And if they do get help to go to college, maybe it's because the GAA see the value of promoting a culture of sending players to college to get an education as it's more likely to keep them at home to stay part of the organization than lose them altogether. Would the FAI ever do that? Can't blame an amateur organization for helping out its players.

No but the LOI clubs do. Pats have a scholarship with NUIM, Sligo with Sligo IT, Bohs had one with Blanchardstown IT and sure UCD have a club in the league itself.

laoch na mona

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Very little working class people in rural Ireland where most GAA is played, simple as.

are you high?:p

class divisions don't stop at the edge of town, there is a rural working class

i'd say it would be down to history, all forms of nationalism after the revolutionary period became very middle class. this might have had some effect on who played GAA

but I'd hesitate to say that the GAA is an overly middle class organisation

Warper

freddiek wrote: »

watching a LOI soccer match i got to thinking about the contrast between soccer players in Ireland and those who play gaelic football/hurling.

it seems these days nearly every inter-county player has a university degree and/or a professional-type job. Why should that be the case for gaelic games when its clearly not the case for soccer players??

I never thought that gaelic games were class-based sports before but perhaps the trend has gone that way over the years. certainly not to the extent that Rugby is but i'd wager that most inter-county players come from solidly middle class backgrounds.

people from a soccer background may have traditionally looked on gaelic games as sports for teachers, gardai and farmers etc. but I certainly don't see much working class people playing our games these days. definitely not at the Inter-county level

people from large towns and obviously cities are under-represented on County teams. this is not just because of the Games being traditionally grounded in rural areas but also I believe failure to get more working-class kids involved.

What absolute crap

Vunderground

freddiek wrote: »

why is there never any trouble between the fans not like in the working-class soccer eh?

The fans have plenty of fights to watch on the gaa pitch
- no need to start their own

rpurfield

kksaints wrote: »

No but the LOI clubs do. Pats have a scholarship with NUIM, Sligo with Sligo IT, Bohs had one with Blanchardstown IT and sure UCD have a club in the league itself.

Drogheda United have one with Dundalk IT too. Back when the league had a few professional clubs some of the players used the time professionalism gave them to study part time, which is also something a lot of rugby players do. I reckon a lot more people go to college in Ireland now compared to say twenty to thirty years ago and hence this is why more GAA players are being called middle class here.

kksaints

rpurfield wrote: »

Drogheda United have one with Dundalk IT too. Back when the league had a few professional clubs some of the players used the time professionalism gave them to study part time, which is also something a lot of rugby players do. I reckon a lot more people go to college in Ireland now compared to say twenty to thirty years ago and hence this is why more GAA players are being called middle class here.

You would think that Dundalk would have the scholarship with Dundalk IT.

I remember that Sporting Fingal had a scholarship with DCU aswell when they were around.

rpurfield

kksaints wrote: »

You would think that Dundalk would have the scholarship with Dundalk IT.

I remember that Sporting Fingal had a scholarship with DCU aswell when they were around.

I would think so myself, though I couldn't tell you for definite I'm sure there is someone from up that direction that could fill us in.

Another thing to add to this is that with the jobs market being how it is now, people are needing more and more qualifications. The best description of it I heard was "degree inflation", the days of walking out of the leaving cert and straight into a handy job for life because your good at hurling or football is long gone.

Al Monds

This is a very interesting topic but also a complex one.
People play games that they can.
Its often not a choice but whatever is available.
I played Gaelic, rugby and soccer for the same school.
I did so without thinking.
I would have played on the dish washing team if they had one.
The games may have had an origin in social history.
In the meantime our society has evolved independently of sport.
We are where we are and we play what we can.

The Letheram

This is a fairly recent development imo. It is to do with the fact that about 70% of school leavers afair now undertake some form of 3rd level education.

nice_guy80

The Letheram wrote: »

This is a fairly recent development imo. It is to do with the fact that about 70% of school leavers afair now undertake some form of 3rd level education.

I would argue that Gaelic Games in third level is badly organised and is only targetted at the elite athletes and does very little for the average club player who would like to do some training and play a few games.

CrabRevolution

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I would argue that Gaelic Games in third level is badly organised and is only targetted at the elite athletes and does very little for the average club player who would like to do some training and play a few games.

Wasnt my experience by any means. I have studied in 2 big colleges and each one had 3 freshers football teams, then 4 senior football teams, plus 2/3 hurling ones. I'm in DIT at the moment and they even seem to have a team composed entirely of foreigners who compete in a blitz. The GAA in colleges is very inclusive and seen as a good way to make friends.

Also when I'm training/playing with the club at home I see lads who wouldnt be the most dedicated and only make our clubs junior hurling team coming back with gear and starting jerseys from their colleges around the country. You do be thinking the college mustn't be the best if that lad is midfield for them.

There's a strict enough set of rules about playing for college, stipulating the minimum number of credits, rules on transferring college, on freshers, on repeats etc. Plus there's a cap on the number of sport scholarship players you can play. These rules are all there to prevent an american style situation where you're in college only to play, which the academic focus a distant second.

emmetlego

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I would argue that Gaelic Games in third level is badly organised and is only targetted at the elite athletes and does very little for the average club player who would like to do some training and play a few games.

Disagree

While there is an emphasis on the elite GAA players in UCD, DCU etc, they still cater for the inter-junior standard player also, they just don't get the same training benefits etc, much like the club and county scene.

Orizio

I'd say its fair to say Freddiek has a unique understanding of the word 'middle class'.

sydthebeat

There is absolutely no co relation between any class system and inclusiveness in gaa games versus other sports


Ludicrous statement.

homerjay2005

in all fairness to the OP, i can see where he is coming from.

i guess its a historical and cultural thing.

sydthebeat wrote: »

There is absolutely no co relation between any class system and inclusiveness in gaa games versus other sports


Ludicrous statement.

ah come off it, i know its a sweeping generalisation but generally GAA tend to be middle ground in terms of status in society, for want of a better phrase. Rugby tends to be a higher class game and soccer tends to be for the lower classes. of course theres 100000s of exceptions, some people will support all 3, but its a good basis to start from and explains a good portion of each support base. personally im am big into soccer and gaa as i think they represent me, but i think Rugby is a sport that epitomizes alot about certain aspects of Irish society that doesnt represent me.

Dickie10

not much class divide in rural ireland and no real working class so GAA prob seems more middle class, but its just the fact that it has no working class affiliation because where it is based has zero working classes. very hard to find a dublin player from inside the M50 whos parent or both are not originally from rural ireland

Stoner

Dickie10 wrote:

no working class affiliation because where it is based has zero working classes. very hard to find a dublin player from inside the M50 whos parent or both are not originally from rural ireland

Tbh this is not true plenty of people that this does not apply to, me for example. I went to school and my team was based and populated with inner city players some had parents from outside Dublin most didn't. I could still name them now. 1 to 15. Some were from generations of traders and Dockers.

I'd argue that the roots of the GAA are working class since so many landless people were involved in it when it was established. Some people have just been convinced that there is a class below them and spend their lives trying to convince eachother that they are correct.

I also struggle with the concept that rural Ireland has zero representation from a working class base.

I had a grandfather from carlow he was certainly working class, arrived in Dublin to work, a very basic education, zero land in carlow just two strong hands.

I had a second grandparent from rural Ireland raised in Dublin from the age of one because his patents couldn't afford to feed him. That type of situation was kept quiet but common.
A good friend of mine struggled beside me in the back line had a parent from limerick, arrived in Dublin at 16 with a fiver to work, nothing for him in limerick, that might not sound great but its what those guys said themselves.

Indeed what many people struggle with is that most of the people raised in rural Ireland that ended up in Dublin, went there with an average to poor education to Work.

The GAA was founded in 1884 ? the land league was busy around that time too trying to get land for Irish people, so really when it started up it was played mostly by Roman Catholic people who worked for others, either on their land or for them in some capacity, poor people from a second class society at that time, a working class base.

My taxes pay for plenty of grants and welfare for people in Dublin and for some farmers, the only team sport i ever played (very badly) was hurling.
It wouldnt sit well with me if someone on the dole/grants living outside Dublin considered themselves "above me" as I have always been a net contributor since I started to work and plenty of rural people are a drain on the country, just like plenty urban people are.

Tbh playing sport is very important, good people realise that and encourage their kids to take part, that imo is the common denominator.
John Giles went to my school, if you read his book you'll see how he was "forced" to play for the football team, it drove him from the game.
The basis of this thread and some of the posts in it still resonate with the concept that the GAA is a rural sport and that other sports are "working class" it's a flawed concept with no basis since most rural people that settled in Dublin were working class. They arrived in at the bottom to work up to something.

Drummerboy2

I think the fact that there are GAA scholarships in many universities helps a lot. Look at Philly McMahon from a working class background and he went to DCU along with a good few of his Ballymun team mates.

However, I do think the GAA could do more in working class areas to promote their games. Heaven forbid if they ever do, they will have to split the county in 4