ISIS are pure evil.

nokia69

Playboy wrote: »

Well if you have been then you would know what you are talking about is BS. Stop trying to change the goalposts... You try to insinuate that Cairo is some sort of fundamentalist city where people cant wear a t-shirt. There are lots of bars in Egypt where the locals and young people drink, you can even get Pork if you look hard enough, there are also brothels, casinos and other such venues. Not the best place admittedly to be gay although there is a big underground scene. The MB were pretty moderate in Egypt even though they had a coalition with some nutter Salafi's. But now under Sisi the country is what is was under Mubarak, a more or less secular state based on some Islamic principles. The MB have been practically wiped out in Egypt by Sisi so its likely to only get more secular if they manage to keep the missionary Wahabbi's out. I think we need to be focusing on why we prop up a regime like Saudi Arabia who exports this extremism all around the middle east and the rest of the world. We know about it and we allow it... why?

I never changed the goal posts

someone said ISIS shot a woman in the head for wearing a red coat

someone else said "no, she was shot for being a prostitute"

my claim was and is, that for the likes of ISIS a woman in a red coat is the same as a prostitute, this idea is not unique to ISIS, it is a mainstream view for many across the arab/islamic world, and the idea has taken root in Europe

and there is plenty or proof on youtube of how woman get harassed on the streets of cairo, I even posted 2 videos

FTA69

Unfortunately "prostitute" is often used by fundamentalist Muslims to designate any and all women who don't conform to their whacky standards of moral conduct. Only in work today I heard somebody describe Taslima Nasreen (an exiled Bangladeshi writer) as a "prostitute" for having the gall to be a secular woman who drinks and smokes.

Needless to say, she's not actually a brasser.

Zebra3

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Blaming the west for the ills of the middle east is just lazy and ridiculous.

As for people saying western interference in Afghanistan made things worse, trying tell the women freed from Taliban control, in school or allowed vote.

The "West" is to blame for a huge amount in the ME. It gave its backing to European Jews to go ahead with their project to ethnicly cleanse Palestine and set up a colonial, racist state.

The "West" has constantly backed evil military regimes/dictatorships that have suppressed the hopes and freedoms of ordinary people.

The "West" has constantly attacked states that have not toed its line.

Oh course there are many people in the ME who have coloborrated with the "West" in fvcking over their own people, but only the deluded who like to see America and its lackeys through rose tinted glasses can deny history.

Afghanistan itself being a perfect example. Women there had great freedoms until the U.S. backed Mujahaadeen overthrew the government. But why let the truth get in the way of the bootlicking? Sure if some of history is uncomfortable, just ignore those bits....

keanosbeard

The " West " undoubtedly has responsibilities towards many problems in the present day Middle East, and in some cases this goes back to the 1800s where certain Europe countries, rather than "The West" or "The USA", should consider their contribution.

However, many "problems" in the Middle East, what the West would consider the most abhorrent human rights abuses: racism, ethnic cleansing, misogyny, slavery, rape, paedophillia. These are not the fault of " The West ", the ideology of Islam is wholly responsible. These issues existed before The West existed.

Isis is committing racism and ethnic cleansing and religous murder and peophillia and sex slavery and beheadings, because the followers of the inventor of Islam, Mohommed, during Mohommeds lifetime were engaging in such activity under his command, instruction, teachings and example.

Folk in the West see it as a problem. They don't.

Some of the problems in the Middle East have been cause by "The West".

The inherrent abhorrence of some of the things that happen in the Middle East are caused by Islam. And those things are not the fault of The West. Those are the fault of Islam.

Nodin

nokia69 wrote: »

the European left place no value on our own cultures so its no real surprise to see that they don't care about pre-islamic monuments

Load of bollocks, tbh.

Playboy

nokia69 wrote: »

I never changed the goal posts

someone said ISIS shot a woman in the head for wearing a red coat

someone else said "no, she was shot for being a prostitute"

my claim was and is, that for the likes of ISIS a woman in a red coat is the same as a prostitute, this idea is not unique to ISIS, it is a mainstream view for many across the arab/islamic world, and the idea has taken root in Europe

and there is plenty or proof on youtube of how woman get harassed on the streets of cairo, I even posted 2 videos

Ok lets look at your quote

"a woman in a t-shirt and jeans would be spat on and called a whore in Cairo"

Sounds to me like you are positioning it as a common occurrence or an inevitability... It isnt, people dress like that in Cairo without any issue. This is important because when you make claims like that it gives people a false impression of places they might have never been to.

Shurimgreat

FTA69 wrote: »

Unfortunately "prostitute" is often used by fundamentalist Muslims to designate any and all women who don't conform to their whacky standards of moral conduct. Only in work today I heard somebody describe Taslima Nasreen (an exiled Bangladeshi writer) as a "prostitute" for having the gall to be a secular woman who drinks and smokes.

Needless to say, she's not actually a brasser.

Agreed. In Saudi Arabia a woman would be viewed as a prostitute if she was unaccompanied by a man, found drinking alcohol, seen with different men not her own relatives, seen kissing a man in public, holding hands, driving, all things that are common place in the west.

Islam is extreme, utterly extreme. Luckily we only get to see Islam lite in the west, as western constitutions forbid the more extreme elements.

But what many women experience today in ISIS territory is par for the course in Saudi Arabia and in fact its probably worse in Saudi Arabia for women.

nokia69

Playboy wrote: »

Ok lets look at your quote

"a woman in a t-shirt and jeans would be spat on and called a whore in Cairo"

Sounds to me like you are positioning it as a common occurrence or an inevitability... It isnt, people dress like that in Cairo without any issue. This is important because when you make claims like that it gives people a false impression of places they might have never been to.

it is a common occurrence

Wurzelbert

Shurimgreat wrote: »

[...]
[...]
Islam is extreme, utterly extreme. Luckily we only get to see Islam lite in the west, as western constitutions forbid the more extreme elements.
[...]

yeah, yet a lot of that **** keeps happening in europe’s muslim communities...

conorhal

Playboy wrote: »

Ok lets look at your quote

"a woman in a t-shirt and jeans would be spat on and called a whore in Cairo"

Sounds to me like you are positioning it as a common occurrence or an inevitability... It isnt, people dress like that in Cairo without any issue. This is important because when you make claims like that it gives people a false impression of places they might have never been to.

Well I've been there. Sadly I can't find the photo's but there was a stunning series of pictures I saw as part of an article on the subject that were taken by a photographer over several decades of the same street in Cairo that showed the steady progression from western dress to a street full of ghosts.
Here's a link to something sorta similar, graduation photo's from the 50's to the the noughts, the change is stark:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_veil_falls_on_cairo

Shurimgreat

It would be something similar in Iran I imagine. In the 1970s, women in tshirts and jeans and possibly even bikinis at swimming pools, today full muslim dress.
There is no question, the more westernised the leader in these countries the more freedoms women have and less oppression they suffer.
In many cases the middle east has gone backwards, leaning towards its natural state.

Wurzelbert

conorhal wrote: »

Well I've been there. Sadly I can't find the photo's but there was a stunning series of pictures I saw as part of an article on the subject that were taken by a photographer over several decades of the same street in Cairo that showed the steady progression from western dress to a street full of ghosts.
Here's a link to something sorta similar, graduation photo's from the 50's to the the noughts, the change is stark:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_veil_falls_on_cairo

yup, back into the middle ages at full speed...one can only hope the military stays in control to prevent the worst...yet ultimately the egyptians will get what the egyptians want...and deserve...their decision whether their daughters learn to read and write and all that...

Egginacup

keanosbeard wrote: »

The " West " undoubtedly has responsibilities towards many problems in the present day Middle East, and in some cases this goes back to the 1800s where certain Europe countries, rather than "The West" or "The USA", should consider their contribution.

However, many "problems" in the Middle East, what the West would consider the most abhorrent human rights abuses: racism, ethnic cleansing, misogyny, slavery, rape, paedophillia. These are not the fault of " The West ", the ideology of Islam is wholly responsible. These issues existed before The West existed.

Isis is committing racism and ethnic cleansing and religous murder and peophillia and sex slavery and beheadings, because the followers of the inventor of Islam, Mohommed, during Mohommeds lifetime were engaging in such activity under his command, instruction, teachings and example.

Folk in the West see it as a problem. They don't.

Some of the problems in the Middle East have been cause by "The West".

The inherrent abhorrence of some of the things that happen in the Middle East are caused by Islam. And those things are not the fault of The West. Those are the fault of Islam.

If, as you say, the ideology of Islam is responsible for these things then why are they illegal in Muslim states? Saudi Arabia is the most rigid autocratic Muslim state but if you rape someone there, or molest a kid you will be executed. So elaborate on where the teachings of Islam promote all the atrocities that you mentioned.

Egginacup

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Agreed.In Saudi Arabia a woman would be viewed as a prostitute if she was unaccompanied by a man, found drinking alcohol, seen with different men not her own relatives, seen kissing a man in public, holding hands, driving, all things that are common place in the west.

Islam is extreme, utterly extreme. Luckily we only get to see Islam lite in the west, as western constitutions forbid the more extreme elements.

But what many women experience today in ISIS territory is par for the course in Saudi Arabia and in fact its probably worse in Saudi Arabia for women.

They're also commonplace in Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Morocco, Abu-Dhabi, etc. The kissing is a bit taboo but everything else is commonplace too in those Muslim countries.

BlaasForRafa

Egginacup wrote: »

So elaborate on where the teachings of Islam promote all the atrocities that you mentioned.

How about you elaborate on that evidence of the afghan pipeline that you said you were going to provide but conveniently didn't.

Shurimgreat

Egginacup wrote: »

If, as you say, the ideology of Islam is responsible for these things then why are they illegal in Muslim states? Saudi Arabia is the most rigid autocratic Muslim state but if you rape someone there, or molest a kid you will be executed. So elaborate on where the teachings of Islam promote all the atrocities that you mentioned.

But then on the otherhand.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/no-minimum-age-for-marriage-of-girls-grand-mufti-576044.html

I agree the SA government do try to limit the very worst excesses of Islam. Its not thanks to Islam however that people are protected.

keanosbeard

Egginacup wrote: »

If, as you say, the ideology of Islam is responsible for these things then why are they illegal in Muslim states? Saudi Arabia is the most rigid autocratic Muslim state but if you rape someone there, or molest a kid you will be executed. So elaborate on where the teachings of Islam promote all the atrocities that you mentioned.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOL !

In Saudi Arabia, as in other Islamic Paradises, the likelihood is that the woman who is raped will be punished for adultery !

Don't you need 4 male witnesses to a " Rape " in Islam ?

And of course in Islam it is perfectly legitimate to " rape " a slave. Lets not bother with instances from the Golden Age of Islam, but in this day and age, many poor migrant domestic workers have found, in Islamic States where they are second class citizens.

The following is from Wikipedia, I really can't be bothered;

Rape in Saudi Arabia has been considerably investigated by various observers. In 1988, sexual offences stood at 2.19 rapes per 100,000 population.[1] Under Sharia law, a law generally enforced by the country's government, punishment imposed by the court on the rapist may range from flogging to execution. However, there is no penal code in Saudi Arabia and there is no written law which specifically criminalizes rape or prescribes its punishment. If the rape victim first entered the rapist's company in violation of purdah, she also stands to be punished by the law's current holdings.[2] In addition, there is no prohibition against marital rape or statutory rape.

In Saudi Arabia, rape cases usually target both the defendant and the victim,[3] and in some cases, the victim can be sentenced to even harsher punishment than the assailant.[2]

Human Rights Watch has investigated the situation, and their report concludes that the rape victim is punished when they speak out against the crime. In one case, the victim's sentence was doubled for speaking out; the court also harassed the victim's lawyer, going so far as to confiscate his professional license.[4]

In 2009, the Saudi Gazette reported that a 23-year-old, unmarried woman was sentenced to one year in prison and 100 lashes for adultery. This woman had been gang-raped, became pregnant, and had tried (unsuccessfully) to abort the fetus. The flogging was postponed until after the delivery.[5]

Egginacup

Shurimgreat wrote: »

But then on the otherhand.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/no-minimum-age-for-marriage-of-girls-grand-mufti-576044.html

I agree the SA government do try to limit the very worst excesses of Islam. Its not thanks to Islam however that people are protected.

What has the marriage age got to do with Islam?

keanosbeard

Maybe Mohammed married a 6 year old girl and stuck his Johnson into her when she was 9 years old ?

keanosbeard

Sorry, Muhammed stuck his 52 old Johnson into Aisha's 9 year old flower garden.

Yuk. Excuse me while I retch.

Playboy

nokia69 wrote: »

it is a common occurrence

Ok, I have an Egyptian lady (my wife) from Cairo sitting next to me who is laughing at the ridiculousness of your claim. If you would like I can add you on Facebook and introduce you to a couple of hundred Egyptian men and women from Cairo who are better placed to refute your claim since they dress like you describe everyday without an issue. I'm serious, just pm me your name and I'll add you.

Zebra3

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/20/victims-of-sex-assaults-in-military-are-mostly-sil/?page=all

Let's get the rapists in to sort out the paedos. :rolleyes:

Playboy

conorhal wrote: »

Well I've been there. Sadly I can't find the photo's but there was a stunning series of pictures I saw as part of an article on the subject that were taken by a photographer over several decades of the same street in Cairo that showed the steady progression from western dress to a street full of ghosts.
Here's a link to something sorta similar, graduation photo's from the 50's to the the noughts, the change is stark:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_veil_falls_on_cairo

Yes I have seen these previously and it is true to an extent. Ever since the British left there has been a steady decline into a more conservative religious dress. Many of the Muslim countries in North Africa and in the Mediterranean basin such as Lebanon, Morocco etc have gone through similar changes. There are lots of reasons for this but you will hear people who are 70-80 now talk about life in Cairo and it is unrecognizable almost to today... lots of women in mini skirts, pubs, bars and clubs everywhere, very European in many ways. However it (in Egypt at least) is turning again. With the failed MB project people have started to take off the veil which would have been unthinkable a few years ago because once it was on it was on. Lots of women dont wear the veil but it is quite a statement when you wear it for years and then take it off. But people are doing that now, the mood has shifted back towards secularism, lots of new bars etc have opened up.

But whilst Cairo/Egypt did become quite religious for a period it was never comparable to modern day Iran or Saudi Arabia. Women have always been able to dress more freely and wear their hair down without a veil. Cairo was almost a kind of Vegas for the middle east, many Saudi's would visit there for a wild weekend, both men and women. Cairo always had a bustling movie, tv and music scene... lots of celebrities live there and enjoy a western style social scene.

Shurimgreat

Egginacup wrote: »

What has the marriage age got to do with Islam?

Did you read the article?

The Saudi Arabian government are trying to have a minimum age set for girls to marry.

The Grand Mufti, the leading Islamic cleric in the country, opposes a minimum age.

I don't think the article or I can be any clearer than that.

These grand muftis see nothing wrong with old men marrying child brides, nothing wrong with it all. And why? Well if it was good for Muhammad...

Wurzelbert

Egginacup wrote: »

What has the marriage age got to do with Islam?

erm, a lot where islam is the law i'd say...

Egginacup

keanosbeard wrote: »

LOOOOOOOOOOOOL !

In Saudi Arabia, as in other Islamic Paradises, the likelihood is that the woman who is raped will be punished for adultery !

Don't you need 4 male witnesses to a " Rape " in Islam ?

And of course in Islam it is perfectly legitimate to " rape " a slave. Lets not bother with instances from the Golden Age of Islam, but in this day and age, many poor migrant domestic workers have found, in Islamic States where they are second class citizens.

The following is from Wikipedia, I really can't be bothered;

Rape in Saudi Arabia has been considerably investigated by various observers. In 1988, sexual offences stood at 2.19 rapes per 100,000 population.[1] Under Sharia law, a law generally enforced by the country's government, punishment imposed by the court on the rapist may range from flogging to execution. However, there is no penal code in Saudi Arabia and there is no written law which specifically criminalizes rape or prescribes its punishment. If the rape victim first entered the rapist's company in violation of purdah, she also stands to be punished by the law's current holdings.[2] In addition, there is no prohibition against marital rape or statutory rape.

In Saudi Arabia, rape cases usually target both the defendant and the victim,[3] and in some cases, the victim can be sentenced to even harsher punishment than the assailant.[2]

Human Rights Watch has investigated the situation, and their report concludes that the rape victim is punished when they speak out against the crime. In one case, the victim's sentence was doubled for speaking out; the court also harassed the victim's lawyer, going so far as to confiscate his professional license.[4]

In 2009, the Saudi Gazette reported that a 23-year-old, unmarried woman was sentenced to one year in prison and 100 lashes for adultery. This woman had been gang-raped, became pregnant, and had tried (unsuccessfully) to abort the fetus. The flogging was postponed until after the delivery.[5]

Well if you read that right there it clearly states that rape is punishable by flogging or death (under Sharia Law, i.e. religious Islam code of justice) but in Saudi Arabia they basically don't give a shit.
That kind of flies in the face of some other poster's ignorant insistence that Islam promotes rape. It expressly forbids it and the punishment is harsher than in any Western country ....i.e. the death penalty.

keanosbeard

Egginacup wrote: »

If, as you say, the ideology of Islam is responsible for these things then why are they illegal in Muslim states? Saudi Arabia is the most rigid autocratic Muslim state but if you rape someone there, or molest a kid you will be executed. So elaborate on where the teachings of Islam promote all the atrocities that you mentioned.

LOL

Egginacup

Wurzelbert wrote: »

erm, a lot where islam is the law i'd say...

You see this is where you people are cherry-picking bullshit little episodes and using them as a yardstick to vent your own bigotry. So the grand fucking mufti of Saudi Arabia wants there to be no legal age for a girl to get married. Is this guy's stance codified in the teachings of Islam?

Other countries where Sharia Law is applied in full are Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Sudan. It is applied to personal issues (such as marriage) in a host of other countries, India, Morocco, Egypt, Algeria, Malaysia, Uganda and many more. And all these countries have a minimum marriage age, many of them have the age set for the girl a lot higher than us in the enlightened and protective "west".

So to assert, as that poster in his galactic clumsiness did, that Islam is some kind of predatory cult that promotes paedophilia just because some old religious fogey in Saudi is opposed to the introduction of a minimum marriage age is laughable.

Shurimgreat

Egginacup wrote: »

You see this is where you people are cherry-picking bullshit little episodes and using them as a yardstick to vent your own bigotry. So the grand fucking mufti of Saudi Arabia wants there to be no legal age for a girl to get married. Is this guy's stance codified in the teachings of Islam?

Other countries where Sharia Law is applied in full are Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Sudan. It is applied to personal issues (such as marriage) in a host of other countries, India, Morocco, Egypt, Algeria, Malaysia, Uganda and many more. And all these countries have a minimum marriage age, many of them have the age set for the girl a lot higher than us in the enlightened and protective "west".

So to assert, as that poster in his galactic clumsiness did, that Islam is some kind of predatory cult that promotes paedophilia just because some old religious fogey in Saudi is opposed to the introduction of a minimum marriage age is laughable.

Codified in the sense that Muhammad did it and anything he did was ok, gospel and so on. The man litterly could do no wrong. I have yet to hear any Muslim, fanatical or otherwise, in any way shape or form criticise Muhammad or any of his actions. Probably for very good reason, it would lead to their death if they did it publicly. This is not really a religion to be trifled with in particular countries. The latest example was in Saudi Arabia I believe. A man sentenced to death for tearing up the Koran and renouncing his faith. In Pakistan a mentally ill girl was also sentenced to death for a similiar alleged crime.

As I said, if Muhammad did it, then its just fine with many Muslims. The Grand Mufti are certainly not going to have the courage to criticise Muhammad, nor regular clerics nor most other people.

eternal

Scumbags desroying ancient artifacts of our artistic heritage that can never be replaced. It makes my blood boil. Destructive, disgusing subhuman cnts. Why aren't they totured and burnt and swept away into the nothingness of time.