ISIS are pure evil.

Tail Docker

tallus wrote: »

Personally I think there's a huge distinction in dropping a bomb on an area miles away from you where you don't have to look face to face at the person you are killing and or maiming compared to physically beheading an individual with your own hand. The end result may be the same, but as far as I'm concerned, it has to take a serious a degree of out and out inhumanity to physically cut someone's head off.
I'm not saying I agree with bombing either, far from it, but there's a distinction. You don't appear to be making that connection.

Erm, I'm trying to follow the logic of this and failing. I wouldn't cut off someones head, just not happening, much the same as I wouldn't deliberately shoot a child, or drop a bomb on someone. I just wouldn't do it, full stop. The person on the receiving end wouldn't be chuffed at dying, no matter what the means was.

My main point is simply - Why is ISIS suddenly the bogey man? I wondered the same with Quaddafi - he was tolerate for years and years, then suddenly he "raped virgins and killed babies"..maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but whatever he was at, he was at for years and not touched...then he starts playing money games and BANG. Same with Saddam. And now, same with ISIS - they're cnuts, no argument there, but they always were, for years, and not a word..why now? Why now?-because a new fear is needed, and this one is called ISIS. Much catchier than any other Jihadis name anyway.

DeadHand

unseenfootage wrote: »

Whoa....

Rationalizing that beheading an enemy combatant is as brutal as, if not less, than drone bombing from afar, does not mean I am rationalizing the actions of IS. There are several others who feel the same way about beheading.

I said earlier that I do not support ISIS. I come here under the large tent of objurgation and to shed light on the hypocritical nature of Western Media and Politicians.

I guess that just barging into a thread without reading prior posts leads one to make wild assumptions

You came here to appear all edgy, anti-establishment and anti-American and so made a despicable effort to dilute the inherent barbarity of the beheading and crucifixion of human beings by crying out "but look at the Yanks!/Africans!/Israelis!/Mexicans! they're just as bad!"

Innocent people are dying horribly in Iraq and Syria for their religion and/or ethnicity and it isn't Politicians (whoever they are) or the Western Media that's killing them.

If you want to start a thread shedding your light on the hypocrisy of the West, do so. Stop using western hypocrisy on this thread to rationalize genocide.

Large tent of objurgation my arse.

unseenfootage

babaracus wrote: »

It is self serving with many glaring omissions. And when somebody is trying to excuse or engage in whataboutery when using it in reference to the actions of ISIS animals it stinks.

These questions have been raised in the media over the last few days.

- UK/USA now supports the Kurds with airstrikes and arms against ISIS for alleged intentions of genocide.
- Whatabout the rebels in Syria who have asked the world for help against Assad who have brutally murdered 170 000 Syrians . Why are they not getting any help?

Should we just ignore it and pretend that ISIS operates in a vacuum?

comongethappy

unseenfootage wrote: »

These questions have been raised in the media over the last few days.

- UK/USA now supports the Kurds with airstrikes and arms against ISIS for alleged intentions of genocide.
- Whatabout the rebels in Syria who have asked the world for help against Assad who have brutally murdered 170 000 Syrians . Why are they not getting any help?

The FSA & affiliates have received extensive outside help.... Right up to the point where the respective parliaments of France & the UK said 'no air strikes'..... So none happened.

You are tying yourself up in knots with this trollish whataboutery in support of ISIS.

Ditch

DeadHand wrote: »

No-one took you seriously because it seemed like you were taking the piss.

They definitely ain't Tuaregs, the Tuaregs being a nomadic tribe largely contained to North Africa.

Maybe when on the road it is to keep the sand out...

More likely, being as they are a terrorist, criminal organization they wish to make it easier on themselves to melt back into the general population when ISIS does finally meet it's well deserved demised. They don't want hard proof of their time brutalizing the defenseless existing.

Thankyou! For at least offering an opinion.

Why anyone should have thought I was taking the piss, simply because I have / am doggedly seeking an answer to a genuine and perfectly open question? God alone knows. But, thanks for pointing out another thing that's been lost on me.

I'm aware of who the Tuareg are. I mentioned them specifically to point out how ludicrous my mates argument was. Might as well have said " isis are Bedouin's ".

Keeping sand out doesn't cut it. No one else, native to the areas, seems to feel the need to cover all but their eyes.

No. I reckon ye last paragraph there has it. That's what I just couldn't get my finger on. That they're hedging their bets. If it all goes to rat sh!t? They can just say, " Who? Me?! Hell, No! I never hacked any girls heads off! Prove I Did!!! "

Very slick.

unseenfootage

DeadHand wrote: »

You came here to appear all edgy, anti-establishment and anti-American and so made a despicable effort to dilute the inherent barbarity of the beheading and crucifixion of human beings by crying out "but look at the Yanks!/Africans!/Israelis!/Mexicans! they're just as bad!"

Innocent people are dying horribly in Iraq and Syria for their religion and/or ethnicity and it isn't Politicians (whoever they are) or the Western Media that's killing them.

If you want to start a thread shedding your light on the hypocrisy of the West, do so. Stop using western hypocrisy on this thread to rationalize genocide.

Large tent of objurgation my arse.

Genocide my arse!

Wild assumptions and unproven allegations.

As intelligent as you come across, you need to check your facts rather than swallow whatever the media and some Iraqi MP shoves down your throat.

You probably believed Colin Powell when he claimed that Iraq has WMDs.

Lord Arsraptor

Any foreign intervention in the Middle East, Africa and Asia has ended in more bloodshed and violence.

The reason we haven't had major conflict in Europe for the last 60 years is that we have been able to learn from mistakes, and found out that war never produces a good long-term outcome, and how political, social and economic alliances (and indeed resolutions to problems) make everyone happier and more prosperous than conflict can.

I think a policy of Isolationism is whats needed here, not only to let them see for themselves the harm they are doing (not only to others but to their own cause and credibility), but also as to avoid terrorism and the deaths our own (European:NATO) soldiers.

That might seem a bit cold towards those dying every day at the hands of these tyrants, but we can't help anyone without risking further destabilisation of the region, and worse still, involve European and/or NATO troups in yet another long, drawn out conflict.

EDIT: Not to mention this is a religious and ideological conflict, which only outlines further the need for western powers to step back and let this play out however it will. Fanaticism of anything is never a good thing.

unseenfootage

comongethappy wrote: »

The FSA & affiliates have received extensive outside help.... Right up to the point where the respective parliaments of France & the UK said 'no air strikes'..... So none happened.

You are tying yourself up in knots with this trollish whataboutery in support of ISIS.

Dear oh dear.

These questions are being raised in Washington even, for God's sake.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/why-get-involved-in-iraq-but-not-syria-its-complicated-obama-says/article/2551950
http://www.afr.com/p/world/hillary_clinton_targets_barack_obama_EFSSE9IGjuKbJGx1ceQBVL

Seems like people are not prepared to get out of their comfort zone and do any critical thinking. That is what you call indoctrination. The Daily Mail - says "Genocide" and every agrees without even a shred of evidence.

DeadHand

unseenfootage wrote: »

These questions have been raised in the media over the last few days.

- UK/USA now supports the Kurds with airstrikes and arms against ISIS for alleged intentions of genocide.
- Whatabout the rebels in Syria who have asked the world for help against Assad who have brutally murdered 170 000 Syrians . Why are they not getting any help?

Should we just ignore it and pretend that ISIS operates in a vacuum?

The Peshmerga are a moral, moderate force of proven determination and military capability. They have provided shelter and protection for all sects and ethnicities. They locked down their areas and protected their own people and others from the nightmare happening in the rest of Iraq while the Iraqi army fled. The Kurds deserve all the help they can get, they are now the front line defenders of civilization.

The rebels in Syria were, unfortunately, composed of a large jihadist element and so untrustworthy. Nevertheless, the airstrikes against Assad almost went ahead but were prevented largely due to Russian pragmatism. Say what you want about Putin, he got that one right. I'd dread to think what would happen if the strikes went ahead. ISIS in Damascus and, possibly, Beirut at the very least.

mikeyjames9

O. I. L

where was the US when the genocide in Darfur was happening

unseenfootage

DeadHand wrote: »

The Peshmerga are a moral, moderate force of proven determination and military capability. They have provided shelter and protection for all sects and ethnicities. They locked down their areas and protected their own people and others from the nightmare happening in the rest of Iraq while the Iraqi army fled. The Kurds deserve all the help they can get, they are now the front line defenders of civilization.

The rebels in Syria were, unfortunately, composed of a large jihadist element and so untrustworthy. Nevertheless, the airstrikes against Assad almost went ahead but were prevented largely due to Russian pragmatism. Say what you want about Putin, he got that one right. I'd dread to think what would happen if the strikes went ahead. ISIS in Damascus and, possibly, Beirut at the very least.

Let me get this straight.

ISIS must be stopped at all costs even though Assad is more genocidal and more brutal than ISIS.

DeadHand

unseenfootage wrote: »

Let me get this straight.

ISIS must be stopped at all costs even though Assad is more genocidal and more brutal than ISIS.

No, he isn't.

The lesser of two evils thinking comes into play here.

I doubt the Shia Muslim, Christian and Jewish communities of Damascus or anyone who isn't a Sunni Muslim for that matter would prefer to live under the black flag of ISIS than Assad's admittedly odious regime.

I know for a fact Lebanon, Turkey and Israel would feel safer with Assad in control of Syria than they would with ISIS.

unseenfootage

DeadHand wrote: »

No, he isn't.

The lesser of two evils thinking comes into play here.

I doubt the Shia Muslim, Christian and Jewish communities of Damascus or anyone who isn't a Sunni Muslim for that matter would prefer to live under the black flag of ISIS than Assad's admittedly odious regime.

He isn't?

Whoa...

Why did you factor out the Majority Sunni population by the way?

Tail Docker

unseenfootage wrote: »

He isn't?

Whoa...

Why did you factor out the Majority Sunni population by the way?

160,000 dead in Syria... 2000 alledged in Iraq by "Isis"... but ISIS is the focus. Seems legit..

DeadHand

unseenfootage wrote: »

He isn't?

Whoa...

Why did you factor out the Majority Sunni population by the way?

Provide evidence that Assad is more genocidal than ISIS beyond "whoa", please.

The Sunni population wouldn't automatically be persecuted under ISIS. Sure, maybe life would be better for them. Just at the expense of every other sect and ethnicity being murdered, forcibly converted or expelled.

unseenfootage

DeadHand wrote: »

Provide evidence that Assad is more genocidal than ISIS beyond "whoa", please.

The Sunni population wouldn't automatically be persecuted under ISIS. Sure, maybe life would be better for them. Just at the expense of every other sect and ethnicity being murdered, forcibly converted or expelled.

How many Christians, Druze, Shia or Jews have been murdered by IS?

http://www.genocidewatch.org/syria.html

https://www.google.ie/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=genocide+syria

You claim that IS is more genocidal than Assad?
Can you please substantiate this?

Facts and figures please.

DeadHand

unseenfootage wrote: »

How many Christians, Druze, Shia or Jews have been murdered by IS?

http://www.genocidewatch.org/syria.html

https://www.google.ie/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=genocide+syria

You claim that IS is more genocidal than Assad?
Can you please substantiate this?

Facts and figures please.

Figures for what ISIS is doing are thin on the ground and they are just getting started (not that I'm saying Assad is finished by any means). Clearly, ISIS have not yet killed more people than Assad but their agendas, ambitions, motivations and policies are more genocidal than his. The organizations rival each other in terms of pure evil and my hope would be that they wear themselves down to the benefit of more moderate forces.

Fact remains: The Middle East is a safer place with Assad in Damascus than it would be with ISIS there.

The devil you know.

donegal__road

Britain considered Knighthood for Assad in 2002.


Assad and his wife meet the queen of England

unseenfootage

DeadHand wrote: »

Figures for what ISIS is doing are thin on the ground and they are just getting started (not that I'm saying Assad is finished by any means). Clearly, ISIS have not yet killed more people than Assad but their agendas, ambitions, motivations and policies are more genocidal than his. The organizations rival each other in terms of pure evil and my hope would be that they wear themselves down to the benefit of more moderate forces.

Fact remains: The Middle East is a safer place with Assad in Damascus than it would be with ISIS there.

The devil you know.

Well since you are unable to substantiate your assertions with hard facts and figures, (everything in Syria is well documented. Try SOHR,) I have to conclude that your assertion is highly subjective.

Even the hawkish Hilary Clinton and John McCain agreed that Assad has to go. It was only Obama's dithering that stopped Assad from being defeated by a largely moderate rebel force.

Let's be honest here. ISIS is the greater evil not because they are more genocidal or brutal than Assad but because they have an Islamic agenda. Even if it was a moderate brand of Islam like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt it still wouldn't have mattered because even that is perceived to be a threat to world security.

DeadHand

unseenfootage wrote: »

Let's be honest here. ISIS is the greater evil not because they are more genocidal or brutal than Assad but because they have an Islamic agenda. Even if it was a moderate brand of Islam like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt it still wouldn't have mattered because even that is perceived to be a threat to world security.

They're the greater evil because they are expansionist as well as being brutal and genocidal. They are actively trying to force their own narrow, murderous interpretation of Islam onto other peoples, most of them Muslim.

ISIS is fighting to capture more territory in Kurdistan, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon at this very moment.

unseenfootage

DeadHand wrote: »

They're the greater evil because they are expansionist as well as being brutal and genocidal. .

This is not working is it.

I've asked you before to substantiate your claim and even gave you some pointers yet you continue without doing so. As if mere repetition will magically turn what you say into a truth.

You know. If you lack any evidence now, you can always come back later when you do have but please make sure it is solid evidence rather than your own opinion.

FTA69

Well if the reports are true, ISIS have declared the Yazidis devil-worshippers and told them to convert to Islam or die. If you're driving tens of thousands of people from their homes, killing massive amounts of them including children all while trying to extinguish hallmarks of their culture and disconnect them from their land; then that's well into genocidal territory right there.

mikemac1

Eirigi outside Tesco Ballyfermot this evening with leaflets to boycott Israeli products and a few more guys with flags and some music and signs for Gaza. Nothing strange about that as they often do it.

They have the black ISIS flag too. If ISIS are linked to Gaza I wonder if they'll put off a lot of the protestors that have been around Irish cities in the last few weeks.

I hadn't known there was a link. Do people want to march under an ISIS flag,? Eirigi do anyway

.jacksparrow.

mikemac1 wrote: »

Eirigi outside Tesco Ballyfermot this evening with leaflets to boycott Israeli products and a few more guys with flags and some music and signs for Gaza. Nothing strange about that as they often do it.

They have the black ISIS flag too. If ISIS are linked to Gaza I wonder if they'll put off a lot of the protestors that have been around Irish cities in the last few weeks.

I hadn't known there was a link. Do people want to march under an ISIS flag,? Eirigi do anyway

Em I really don't think eirigi support the isis, you have picked something up wrong.

comongethappy

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Em I really don't think eirigi support the isis.

Not implausible.

They think communism is a good idea, so they wouldn't be the sharpest knives in the set

gugleguy

Look on Eirigi Ballyfermot;s facebook page.
Indeed the ISIS flag does show up, as the flag of "The Popular Front for Liberation"

mikemac1

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Em I really don't think eirigi support the isis, you have picked something up wrong.

I had a quick look at their Facebook page now that I'm home

United States Imperialism Continues in Iraq:

Barack Obama has become the 4th American President to order air strikes on Iraq. US jets have started attacking ISIS militants in northern Iraq in the past 2 days.

Obama said he could not "turn a blind eye" to the suffering of civilians. This is the same man who has been complicit in the killing of thousands of Palestinian civilians in the past month.

This is in response to the fact that ISIS have made gains in their fight against ]Kurdish militia in the past week and were closing in on Erbil, the capital of the Kurdish region.

The Kurdish region has long acted as a base of operations for American imperialism in Iraq. Hundreds of American special forces and 'advisers' are still in the area, despite the supposed withdrawal of all troops 2 years ago.

As is so often the case when America becomes involved in Middle eastern affairs, oil is also a major motivating factor for Obama. Erbil is the administrative centre of the multi billion dollar oil industry in Northern Iraq. The American oil companies Exxon Mobil and Chevron began to evacuate staff in the past week as ISIS neared. This moved Obama to react.

This is yet another example of Western intervention in the Middle East which is doomed to failure.

.jacksparrow.

mikemac1 wrote: »

I had a quick look at their Facebook page now that I'm home

I don't think they are up for Isis.

Its more a case of another chance to bash America.

DeadHand

Oh, those dastardly Kurds!

How dare they defend themselves from ethnic cleansing! Selfishly protecting their women from sexual slavery! Shamelessly fighting to secure some sort of future for their children! Brazenly sheltering those thousands of displaced Christians, Shia Muslims and Yazidi! Don't they know that they too are merely the pawns of American imperialism? Of course, they are not fighting for the centuries old desire of having their own recognised state or to protect their ancient culture from savages! No! They are mere puppets of perfidious capitalism!


Eirigi are an odious, morally bankrupt band of cretins. Ignore them and they will go away. Scratch that actually, everyone does and they don't....

unseenfootage

I don't think they support ISIS . I also think this guy is mistaken about the flag. I checked on the FB page and there aren't any ISIS flags there.

Socialist support the Assad regime and are staunchly against the rebels.